View Full Version : AAR: Vickers Tactical 3-Day Level II Pistol/Carbine Class - Oct 23-25, 2009
Executive Brief – a great class! Heavy focus on accuracy. That is accuracy over high round count.
This was a 3 day class with some of the familiar faces as well as some new folks from Connecticut, New York and quite a LEO contingent from PA. Templar and D90King were missed, but thanks for not sharing the H1N1 virus.
Day 1 – All pistol. Glocks, HKs, M&Ps, XDs, Sigs, and 1911s(even a Nighthawk Vickers!)
Beautiful partly cloudy day that had to have peaked out in mid 70s. Training started out with some shot accuracy and assessments that quickly led to dry firing then ball and dummy drills. LAV preached to the importance of trigger control and need to replace/remove bad habits with good ones. Removal of “El-Snacheroo.” Also the fact that putting lots of rounds down range does you no good without landing on target, in fact, “there is a lawyer at the end of every bullet” makes that clear. We continued to focus on accuracy again with shot placement drills. The trademark Walkbacks were applied to lets us put the fundamentals we just learned into action. Sprinkled in was strong/weak hand shooting, reloading, shooting on the move team competitions, etc. Class drills and events were well orchestrated and this kept everyone’s attention. Overall LAV insists the pistol is the hardest to master but once mastered, translates to improved carbine skills.
Day 2 – Extended Day with Carbine emphasis and Night Fire. Some franken guns but lots of shorties. I counted 4 10.5” rifles at one time. One being a rare HK piston. One FN2000! All rifles had either Aimpoints and Eotechs. Day started cloudy but still great temps just below 70.
We started the day by verifying our zeros at 25 then 50 yards. On a personal note – I quickly went from a 10.5” upper to a 16” LWRC – great decision on my part considering the emphasis on accuracy. LAV discussed effective ranges of carbines, slings, scopes, different zero ranges and why you would have to tailor this to your needs. We quickly went into different shooting positions with “where and why” you would want to apply them. Accuracy drills and many competitions ensured with Larry providing slings and Glock mag releases for prizes. Naturally a Walkback again was applied.
Then the rain started. Would not be a good training weekend in South Hill without it. We continued with transitions to weak side, transition to pistol, shooting on the move. The weak side Walkback was a bear. Some remedial pistol drills were exercised when Larry noticed El Snatcheroo returning. More team drills and a break for dinner just to come back for night fire.
Night fire was very good and educational. Discussion of the different types of lights, different mounting methods and lasers. LAV taught the flash-bulbing technique we executed this with carbines. This was repeated for pistols – more emphasis on the different techniques and pros/cons of each. After the drills a demonstration of the different types of flashes from ammo(pistol and carbine) and effects of muzzle breaks vs flash hiders. We capped off the demos with a Surefire vs M4-2000 suppressors for flash reduction. Lots of good discussion on techniques for light usage with house clearing, etc.
Day 3 – Culmination of Carbine/Pistol with shooting on the move. Partly cloudy and temps nicely in the 60s.
Other folks have to fill in on the beginning of the day, but focus started with shooting on the move. The class then split with two completion/drills, one timed, moving from barrier to barrier having to hit all three metal plates from each barrier from 200 yards to about 150 yards. Using different firing positions each time. The second event was a timed 50 yard accuracy drill that had you firing standing, kneeling and from the prone with a reload. More transition competitions – modified El Presidente and a humbling pistol drill that had many names but I can only remember “The Crucifier.”
In conclusion, a great class with great folks. To not take with you these drills to practice and make yourself a better shooter would be ridiculous. Larry stresses the need to continue to reinforce these techniques and make them part of your tool chest. Thanks Larry and his AIs Dave and Paul.
Some photos from day one handgun training.
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More to come......
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More photos of day 1's handgun training;
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Larry's German WWII factory matching mint condition K43 sniper rifle.
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Is there anything cool he doesn't have in his collection?
Always at least one really slick gun in the AAR pics after a Vickers course.
Is LAV rocking an RCS holster?
Thanks for the AAR and great pics. Looking forward to seeing the rest.
I really want to make one of these Vickers classes in 2010.
Looks like it was a great class once again. Sorry I missed it but my daughters health comes before my classes.;) I will make it up this coming year. LV will be sick of "Biden" by this time next year.:D Where are the pics of the carbines? Did Ronnie run his HK shortie, and did it run properly?
The 416 ran without any issues. Except for the "tuning fork" sound effect after every shot thanks to the flash hider.
I was supposed to be there, damn sorry I missed it.
I was layed out with swine flu last week, and really didn't want to spread it around down there.
Great looking class as always, great pics!
What can I say that hasn't already been said? As usual,Larry never fails to impress not only with his supreme proficiency on the subject matter coupled with a great teaching syle.Simply put,the class was ****in awesome!! Not only was the instruction great but the group of guys there were great as well.Fun people to be around! Had a great time meeting you all.
Anybody thinking about training from anywhere ( besides a very few select individuals like Ken Hackathorn ),shouldn't bother.Just go straight to Larry.Larry teaches tried true battle tested techniques from the most kick ass Unit on the planet.What else could a true student ask for?
Hey Brian, thanks for the AAR.
And Paul, thanks for posting the pics.
It was nice to meet and shoot with everyone involved in this class.
Excellent class all around, and I am looking forward to another.
So many useful drills and techniques to practice.
I took notes and have some work to do!
We are going to set up a class in PA for some time next year, and I can't wait for that.
Yes Patrick, my 416 ran without a flaw, but the "tunning fork" was a bit annoying.
That was the sound that came from my AAC Blackout flashhider after every shot.
I was hoping to see ya there, but I understand. I hope your daughter is well.
And yes, Magsz. LAV is rocking a Raven.
Lee, Can you post pics from the other days?
Everyone thought the "tuning fork" was the timer/beeper going off.
Thanks to everyone there and Larry. It was good to meet new people, see some familiar faces, and to shoot under the great guidance of Larry and the AI. I really enjoyed the walk backs again, el presidente, the team comps, the constant insults to my manhood, and the scrambler. Take care all.... and remember every snatch requires 5 dry runs :P
Day II & III Carbine Training Photos
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More day 2 & 3 carbine training photos;
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I will get the last of the photos posted up tomorrow morning.
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I love this one, its the "I can't believe he just asked that" face. About to be followed with a witty comment.
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I love this one, its the "I can't believe he just asked that" face. About to be followed with a witty comment.
Yeah,that look is pretty funny.As for pics,thats one of em! I sent them to Dinger and he's posting them.
Damnit.
It looks like I missed another fantastic class. :mad:
Yes Patrick, my 416 ran without a flaw, but the "tunning fork" was a bit annoying.
That was the sound that came from my AAC Blackout flashhider after every shot.
I was hoping to see ya there, but I understand. I hope your daughter is well.
Thanks, she is already doing better. Glad your rifle was dialed in. Sorry I missed this one, but I am sure that I will see you at some future classes. What's the tuning fork sound all about? I cant say that I have heard that in person. Did you change it since we were shooting? Lets get together and do some shooting soon...
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How'd the FS2000 run? Any malfunctions? Switch work alright?
I bought one in a silent auction at a killer price that they had put away for 2 years and really don't shoot it all that much. I had a fascination with FN guns there for a while. I'd probably shoot it more if there was a way of getting parts without having to send it in for work if something breaks down.
It ran well. No malfunctions I observed. Dont want to give his name out without his permission, but he gave us a whole demo/breakdown/opinion of it. If I can paraphase some of the observations of the FS2000 was that the long transfer bar(2 of them connected I believe) gives you the equivalent of a Glock trigger in a rifle...would be ideal for clearing rooms but maybe not ideal for long shots. That said - he was obviously quite familiar with it and again it ran well for him
Here are my notes:
We had a bunch of great people in the class. I wasn't the only "long distance" traveller. There were three guys from NY and three from PA with the rest being mostly from VA.
TD1 started with a safety brief followed by dry fire drills to overcome the "el snatcho". We did ball and dummy drills, and partner assisted drills dry fire drills as well.. Larry mentioned the importance of proper trigger reset. Following the ball and dummy drill we did some more pistol drills, finishing up with the walk back.
For the second part of TD1, Larry went over speed and tac loads and we did a few runs. Larry is a proponent of doing a proper tac-load instead of "reload with retention" as seen in IDPA. During all those drills we were expected to keep the shots in the black of the 25 yd NRA bull.
The beginning of TD2 was dedicated to the carbine. Larry mentioned the difference between point of aim and point of impact, and different zeroes that are possible with the carbine. He prefers 100m zero for a general purpose carbine due to the fairly flat bullet trajectory up to 100m. We then proceeded to the 25m line to zero the rifles. With zeroes established, we ran through a small competition. It involved a
timed course of fire from 50 yards in prone, sitting and kneeling, followed by a course of fire from 25 yards in standing position.
This is where the magnifier came in real handy. After the first two stages, myself and another student who was using a magnifier were tied for the first place. The magnifier is helpful
in keeping the dot in a consistent place on target from 50 yards. We ran a few more drills before the carbine walk back. I used the magnifier in the first attempt, but due to the time constraint, I felt rushed while
acquiring the target and missed my shot. After flipping the magnifier to the side, I was able to successfully hit the steel plate and continue with the walk back.
After lunch we did some transition work and ran a few transition drills - rifle goes "click", sling it and draw the pistol and engage the target. We also did some initial shooting on the move
drills and it wasn't pretty. This is the one thing that I tend to practice less on the square range drill, yet it is much harder to hit a moving than a stationary target. Larry also talked about transitions to
support shoulder and we drilled that for some time. We also did the FBI pistol instructor course of fire. Unfortunately, I did not pass it, but I have a new found respect for the instructors.
With the sun setting, it was time for the night fire portion of the class. Larry went over some common flashlight techniques. He doesn't like (perhaps not a strong enough word) the neck index. He used Harries for demonstrations and also mentioned Rogers and maybe one or two others I forgot. He then went over the flashbulb technique. Essentially you light up the target and move, since the light is a nice target indicator. After that we engaged the targets with rifles at first and then with pistols utilizing the flash bulb technique. One really cool part is that we demoed different muzzle attachments/ammo combinations at night. Both the Surefire MB556K break and FSC produced significantly more flash than the A2 flash hider (naturally). Wolf ammo also threw quiet a bit of sparks. The FS2000 flash hider performed just as well as the A2 on ARs. One of the students had a can and he put some rounds through it. I temporarily removed my hearing protection and the noise generated when firing with the can was still uncomfortable for my naked ears despite being lower than un suppressed. The muzzle flash was somewhat less visible too.
TD3 started with some team competitions involving shooting while moving in a M like pattern. I had to remember to elevate my dot since the targets were fairly close. We also did some off shoulder drills from the 25 yard line. After that we split into two groups for the scrambler and shooting on the move. We started the scrambler from 200 yards, and once again, my magnifier came in handy as it allowed me more precision in positioning my dot. However, I have a tendency to "take my time" while using it, despite the scrambler being run on a timer. Afterwards we ran through the "humbler" - a seven stage drill with the ability to turn atmosphere from festive to downright sad. Any drill where you can have shots that could land off an IDPA silhouette at 15 yards is serious business. Afterwards we did a few more rifle drills, including "El Presedente" variations with carbine and pistol before it was time for us to police the range and head back home.
Overall this was a great class. Larry places a great emphasis on marksmanship and the ability to effectively engage a target with a pistol from 25 yards in. As a result, the main focus of the class was on shooting drills. We didn't focus much on weapon manipulation drills, nor were there any drills for firing from the retention positions with pistol or carbine. Pistol manipulation while using a hand held flash light was briefly mentioned but not practiced to a great extent. Nor was one - handed pistol manipulation (drawing, reloading, etc...) covered.
Most of the rifles used in the class were AR variants(gas and piston) with the exception of FS2000, HK416 upper and an AK used briefly on TD3). I did not observe any mechanical issues with rifles used in the class.
FS2000 ran without a hitch and its owner was kind enough to give us a short presentation on its pros/cons. There was a gamut of pistol including Glocks, M&P, HK,Sigs, XD and a healthy number of 1911's including the elusive Vickers 1911.
Oh, and if you spent the money to attend a quality class, and ammo, please invest into electronic hearing protection - you know who you are :).
How'd the FS2000 run? Any malfunctions? Switch work alright?
I bought one in a silent auction at a killer price that they had put away for 2 years and really don't shoot it all that much. I had a fascination with FN guns there for a while. I'd probably shoot it more if there was a way of getting parts without having to send it in for work if something breaks down.
Not to derail this excellent AAR about Larry's course, which I have taken in the past and found to be fantastic, but below is a link to a post where I discuss some specifics with the FS2000:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=278626&highlight=fs2000#post278626
Last of the photos:
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Thanks to everyone for making this an outstanding class.
Larry it was good to see you again after…24 years. You have done well. Still wish it had turned out that you were my brother-in-law and not that hairy biker.
The course was all that I expected and more. Being titled “Level II” can sometimes be misleading but it was pulled off well. The level of training was where it needed to be and those who were a little behind the power curve at first applied themselves and were shooting with the best by Day Three. That fact is a tribute to LAV’s skill and vast experience as an instructor in motivation style, explanation of the “why” behind things and quality of the drills he ran. All one needs to do to become a better and effective combat shooter is listen to and follow his instructions.
I liked the fact that LAV demoed everything, something that you don’t see often in the firearms instructional courses today. He certainly can both “Talk the talk and walk the walk”. Very few instructors out there can pull off so effectively the “Do as I say AND do as I do” as well as LAV does.
The round count was low in numbers but it didn’t seem that way when we were shooting. LAV’s policy of holding you accountable for every round fired (as it should be) had us concentrating more on the delivery of every shot, even when the pace got blazing fast, your mind was locked onto the requirements needed for that next shot to make it into the bull.
You guys were great and I look forward to seeing you again. And next time I hope there are more “real” fighting carbines in the course…FS2000’s. :D
If you liked the mag pouches I had on my vest here is the link to the website.
http://www.p2sys.com/Detail.aspx?ID=9
Ranger979,
That's pretty much how I have my Fastmags set up as well, just on a different chest rig. I've found them to be considerably faster than out the top soft pouches when mounted upright because of the clearance allowed to the magazine, and even faster when mounted floorplate down.
Glad to hear the FS2000 ran like a champ. I've always thought that rifle is damn cool and I like to shoot it, but I just shoot the AR more. Maybe if I run across some cheap ammo, I'll shoot the hell out of it and take it as the backup rifle to the class.
Well after reading some of the comments on the other post I have been trying for the last 30 minutes with my sand filled dummy rounds to duplicate the malfunctions that they had and I can’t. Not saying their rifle/mag combos weren’t doing that, I’m just saying mine doesn’t/won’t. When I first got mine (15k rounds ago) I tried with no success to create a double feed. Seeing I was carrying it as an instructor in a carbine course, I needed to be able to demo the clearing of a double feed to the students. The classic AR-15 double feed that occurs all the time (calm down guys) is easy to create, see and explain to students. With the chamber and feed area of the FS2000 being in the bowels of the weapon (protected from exposure to the elements) it is harder to “show” what is going on. Try as I might, I could not get two rounds into that position “naturally”, meaning short stroking the charging handle or trying to manipulate the magazine like you can with the AR. Every time I pulled the mag out, both rounds fell free. So in the end I had to “unnaturally” produce the malfunction by sliding the barrel forward and hand placing an fired case in the chamber. That worked. Once seating the magazine and running the bolt I got a double feed. The charging handle being only halfway forward is a nice indicator that there is a problem, unlike the AR where you have to look in the ejection port to see what’s going on, thus the requirement for the post-engagement sequence taught at so many schools (roll rifle left, look/feel for the bolt position and close the dust cover), the charging handle position tells you all of that at a glance. I then started working on the required clearing process by doing it both ways. One, locking the bolt to the rear, stripping the mag and then running the bolt three times and two, just stripping the mag out and then running the bolt three times. It didn’t make any difference which way I did it, the result was the same. Once removing the mag the round in the feedway fell out and once running the bolt, the round ejected. Same as the AR…..almost. The difference is you do all of this with the weapon still mounted on your shoulder and WITHOUT dropping the mag. Who wants to say that isn’t a huge advantage? And it works the same while in the prone with the FS. Now think about the AR clearing process while prone. Ugly. Still the next time I go out I will add that unnecessary step (locking the bolt to the rear) into the loading process and see what I can get to happen. I think in the end guys tend to find fault with what they don’t like, be it trucks, guns, ammo, scopes, and of course techniques. All things become smooth and natural one way and one way only……training. You can’t pick up a new anything and be smooth with it. That takes 3000-5000 repetitions. In the end the FS has it’s place in the world and it is better in some ways and worse in others that any other weapon you compare it against, just like everything else.
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