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igoswoop
10-27-09, 12:40
I'm at a stopping point with some project guns and have a little extra fundage left over. That was a first...

So I've had some 1911 envy going on lately and shot one for the first time over the weekend. I only own Glocks and in 9 so this will be pretty different for me.

Primary use will not be competition & it's probably not going in my nightstand. This gun will see some courses next year and about 4-5k rounds easily.

The price range is pretty wide on these guns-starting at around $550 for a SA entry level gun to sky's the limit pricing if you're creative seem about right? I'm looking for something along the lines that sticks close to the original design concept(no double stack hi capacity) with a few enhancements. I would prefer a platform with a factory accessory rail. For those of you who know this gun pretty well, what have you seen out there that seem to check these boxes for me and run well.

I'm not hung up on brand names either. If I should pick up some obscure beater to learn to appreciate a high end variety later, that's fine. I'm hoping to learn how to work on them as much as shoot them. I've met very few guns I didn't like. :D

Thanks

theJanitor
10-27-09, 13:17
before i give my suggestions, what did you like/dislike about your first experience with a 1911?

BLACK LION
10-27-09, 13:38
I found myself in a similar boat a while back.
The biggest hurdle I had to jump was how much MIM(metal injection molded) parts I wanted in my gun, if any at all.

I couldnt afford a Wilson Combat and the 1911s that I had my eyes on had more MIM than I personally cared for. Suprisingly, the Sig GSR revolution has far less MIM than big name 1911s that cost hundreds more. This was a choice and still is if I decide to take the plunge again.
However, after further research I finalized my decision to a Dan Wesson 1911.
I have heard nothing but good about these and since the use Ed Brown parts, there is no MIM. They are moderately priced offer a variety of configurations.

Here would be my choices:

Wilson Combat
Dan Wesson
SIG GSR revolution
Custom build with forged frame/slide and Wilson Compat parts...

sff70
10-27-09, 14:01
Generally, you get what you pay for with 1911s.

For railed 1911s priced under $1500, the Springfield MC Operator is a leading option.

If you acquire a non-railed 1911 that you want to keep, you can always have a Dawson Lightspeed Rail installed. This has costs and complexities of it's own (light adaptor, holsters, etc), but it works VERY well.

Another option would be to use a Surefire MR07. This adds bulk to the gun and your holster choices are limited (Safariland makes their SLS holster in a variant that will work).

I ran a MR07 and X200B for about a year while I evaluted whether I wanted to obtain a railed 1911. Later on ended up getting a railed NHC/VT, and more recently had Dawson Precision install their rail on another of my 1911s.

Recommend you read the articles by Hilton Yam at 10-8performance.com

Good luck.

VooDoo6Actual
10-27-09, 14:15
+1 MC Operator

dojpros
10-27-09, 14:54
If you want your buy in to be 1000ish, I would go with a used Kimber Series I, the older the better or a Springfield Loaded. At this price point you should have enough left over for some decent leather/kydex etc. You could add a dawson rail or the Surefire piece at a later date.

If you want your buy in to be 1500 ish. I too would strongly urge an MC Operator. You get likely reliability, instant availability to mount a light, sights you can see, beavertail etc. If there is a problem, Springfield will pay for shipping both ways.
Should you decide to "upgrade" the Spingfield Custom Shop is highly regarded, resonably priced and has a good turn around time, typically measured in weeks v. months. This pricepoint also presumes enough left over for some gear.

If you really are going to shoot 4-5 k per year, you might want to consider reloading. If so I would go Dilon and not look back.

Hilton Yam's articles are a good starting point. While it has not been my experience you have to spend 2k to have a 5 inch 1911 that you can bet your life on, it will top 1k by the time you buy a pistol, and test it with a combination of mags and ammo to find the mix your particular 1911 will like, especially if you want to be able to mount a light.

igoswoop
10-27-09, 15:02
before i give my suggestions, what did you like/dislike about your first experience with a 1911?

First, thank you for the suggestions and comments so far.

For reference, gun was a Kimber xxx-??? I don't know what the particular model was. I was just grateful for a chance to shoot it. It was traditional full size gun, 7+1, 'upgraded' sights, ambi safety, larger beavertail than the SA GI model, etc. Kind of a flashy example which is not my thing but seemed like a solid representation of slightly worked over 1911.

1911 LIKES: Longer sight plane than what I normally shoot(G17), trigger break, trigger reset, grip shape(was very comfortable to maintain a high grip with both hands and there was very little slipping)-seems like there was just enough room for everything to fit where it felt like it was supposed to on the gripping surface(I don't know if that makes sense?)...... That's really all I've made up my mind about going for the 1911. It seemed really comfortable once I was lined up on target and going through the shot felt unique.

1911 DISLIKES: I am used to the grip angle of a Glock. I naturally point the 1911 low upon resetting after recoil. This will be a training point/issue for me. I could not track the front sight in the later stages of recoil as I can with my 17. It took considerable effort to produce a sight picture twice for quicker controlled pairs. Splits faster than .4 are not realistic for me at this point if I want to remain accurate. I was fine drawing the pistol and picking up the sight during a presentation but staring at an empty rear notch over and over after the first shot will take some range time to correct.

This might not be the best time for me to buy another pistol. I am still for all practical purposes learning to shoot.

I just know I want one now.

ThirdWatcher
10-27-09, 16:25
You described the MC Operator.

dojpros
10-27-09, 16:36
As a fellow glock shooter, for me, going to arched mainspring housings helped my 1911 (forgive me JMB) feel and point more "glocklike". Given your desire to really run the gun, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to get some Tier 1 instruction.

decodeddiesel
10-27-09, 16:40
The thing I have learned over the past few years if that unless you're willing to dedicate at least $1500 as an initial investment, and a lot of time and research into the platform you are bound for disappointment.

I think the Sig GSR is a lot of pistol for the money (though 1911 purists poo-poo the gun), and is probably the least expensive 1911 I would buy.

theJanitor
10-27-09, 18:42
i think there are two paths to 1911 ownership. one is just to buy a good iteration of one and use it. the second is to buy a base gun, find out what you like/dislike about it, and modify it to your liking.

some may say to buy a fairly modern variant and modify from there, but after owning quite alot of them, i think that's a waste of $$ ( i got alot of take-off parts from alot of different 1911's). some of the other 1911 users who have responded in this thread (like sff70 and Hoploethos) might have have experienced this as well. i don't think the experience is uncommon.

so, if it's not your HD/CCW, then maybe the MC-Op might be a good choice. you might find yourself changing out some parts later, and if you get a little deep into the modding, things like the the odd beavertail radius, and the frontstrap shape might need to be addressed. but...

if you like the feel and the "original design concept" of the 1911, then you buy a base colt and selectively modify what you need. you may end up with a "retro" build, a fighting gun, or a full house custom. but when you do it this way, and put in serious thought and planning, no money will be wasted. and it'll be exactly what you spec.

wake.joe
10-27-09, 18:58
Make sure it rattles when you shake it.

Best kind. :cool:

igoswoop
10-27-09, 19:22
SA MC Operator "looks" like what I'm after. I really hate that term because I'm not at all concerned with cosmetics for my working guns. They are all roughed up and scratched and that's fine.

Playing devil's advocate, what would say another three of the MC Op's competitors be? Pricepoint, quality, etc.

I've found a new one for $1100 but I'd like to keep looking and I'm def not opposed to buying used... The only thing I'll need is extra mags. Ten is always been a good # :D

sff70
10-27-09, 19:38
Lots of good advice given in this thread.

Since you are still learining to shoot, perhaps you should go with a non-railed gun, or at least not go with a mounted light for now. A mounted light adds cost, complexity, weight, and bulk that make things more difficult.

Build v. Buy is one of those decision you have to make for yourself.

Build: If you know exactly what you want, building is the way to go, but can be very expensive and time consuming. However, there is great satisfaction to owning a gun customized to your specs.

Buy: Nowadays, you can get something off the shelf that works and has most of what you want, then send it to a shop for those final few mods.

As mentioned above, the SA custom shop does great work.

As to competitors to the MC Operator? There are few in this price range. Perhaps look at offerings from Kimber (Warrior), Dan Wesson, and S&W. Perhaps also the new Colt Rail Gun (don't like the rollmark, but the sharp edges are easily remedied with a ceramic stone).

The above are all railed guns. For non railed, consider a SA Loaded, a used Kimber Series 1 (as someone else mentioned), or a Colt Combat Elite (new style).

Just so you know, the S&W is about the only manuf. to get external extractors to run right. I would avoid the Kimber EE guns. Lots of problems with them.

I would be cautious about the Sig 1911s. They've has issues, and AFAIK, holster selection is limited due to the non-traditional slide profile.

Remember, you'll want to ensure you use good magazines. CMC and Wilson are proven.

Personally, CMC Powermags have worked better for me (the springs in the Wilsons die early, the plastic followers deform and bind, and the basepads fall off when the mags hit the ground).

My Wilsons don't get used on duty or for CCW.

igoswoop
10-27-09, 19:58
Thank you for suggestions.

The only part I'd have to disagree with is the rail. A rail is simply not negotiable for me and I want to avoid an aftermarket solution. As far as weighting differences go, I completely agree and will learn to shoot the gun 'slick' to begin with but I already have several lights that will work so I won't be eating that cost this time around.

Any other bomber magazine rec's would be appreciated. I run nothing but Glock factory mags in my Glocks & Pmags & various USGI mags in my ARs.

My AK runs everything I've stuck in it but I've been lucky with a batch of combloc surplus mags that were new. :D

I have been fortunate enough to not have any magazine related 'issues' and I don't want to start anytime soon by cheaping out on mags now.

Are there any rubberized accessories for the floorplates that will help protect them from dropping them? I don't make habits of dropping mags on asphalt or concrete but if there's a hard spot on the range, I promise you I will find it with a magazine.

Skter505
10-27-09, 20:04
either the MC Operator or TRP (non operator, unless you want the adjustable sights or bull barrel, which for a classic 1911 you don't) would be the lowest price I would go for a 1911. any more than that though and I would go semi-custom, such as SA Pro, Wilson, Nighthawk or Ed Brown. Any of the above used would be great for a first 1911 also, and a little better priced.

ETA: i guess the TRP is out because of no rail with the classic model. I wouldnt really compare anything to the MC operator. The Kimber is a competitor, but alot of issues have been popping up with them so personally I would stay away especially from the external extractor models. if you havent already give this a look 10-8 Duty 1911 (http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html) very helpful even if not for duty, helps you pick a reliable 1911.

JHC
10-27-09, 20:10
+1 Skter

My 9th 1911 since '81 was a TRP and I wish I'd have gone to that level of quality back when I started (prior were basically "service grade").

Toonces
10-27-09, 20:49
Any other bomber magazine rec's would be appreciated.

Metalform Carbon Steel for $18.

http://www.champchoice.com/detail.aspx?ID=524

or

Ed Brown SST for $25. Supposedly a rebranded Metalform.

http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=EB&prodID=EB847&prodTitle=Ed%20Brown%207%20Round%20.45%20ACP%20Magazines

I've had better luck with the solid front followers, so I prefer Metalform/Ed Brown/Wilson mags.

sff70
10-27-09, 21:11
Most of the better aftermarket mags (Wilsons, CMCs, etc) have plastic floorplates that absorb impact and can cheaply/easily replaced should you need to.

I have no experience with the metalform mags.

David Thomas
10-27-09, 22:29
i think there are two paths to 1911 ownership. one is just to buy a good iteration of one and use it. the second is to buy a base gun, find out what you like/dislike about it, and modify it to your liking.

some may say to buy a fairly modern variant and modify from there, but after owning quite alot of them, i think that's a waste of $$ ( i got alot of take-off parts from alot of different 1911's). some of the other 1911 users who have responded in this thread (like sff70 and Hoploethos) might have have experienced this as well. i don't think the experience is uncommon.

so, if it's not your HD/CCW, then maybe the MC-Op might be a good choice. you might find yourself changing out some parts later, and if you get a little deep into the modding, things like the the odd beavertail radius, and the frontstrap shape might need to be addressed. but...

if you like the feel and the "original design concept" of the 1911, then you buy a base colt and selectively modify what you need. you may end up with a "retro" build, a fighting gun, or a full house custom. but when you do it this way, and put in serious thought and planning, no money will be wasted. and it'll be exactly what you spec.


what he said.

David Thomas
10-27-09, 22:41
Thank you for suggestions.

The only part I'd have to disagree with is the rail. A rail is simply not negotiable for me and I want to avoid an aftermarket solution. .





Primary use will not be competition & it's probably not going in my nightstand. This gun will see some courses next year and about 4-5k rounds easily.





Why do you have to have a rail? Is it just an option you know you want? I am not judging one way or the other, just asking.

I used to think that I had to have a railed 1911 and at one point I owned 3 of them. I am now down to just one and it hasn't been shot in a while. I carry a non railed 1911 with CT laser grips and a handheld light.

David Thomas
10-27-09, 22:47
... in the Wilsons ... the basepads fall off when the mags hit the ground)

the little metal tab and plastic basepads do not like to be dropped, and my experience is similar to that of sff70's qouted above. Other than that the Wilsons have worked well for me.

The second generation Cobra mags from Tripp Research have worked great for me.

Business_Casual
10-28-09, 07:42
Some good info in the 1911 section of this forum's sticky thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221

M_P

decodeddiesel
10-28-09, 08:20
Some good info in the 1911 section of this forum's sticky thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221

M_P

Robert Moran's post is excellent and sage.

To the OP, please carefully consider what he wrote in that link before you proceed.

igoswoop
10-28-09, 12:17
Good link....thank you.

Mr. Moran's post pretty much parallel's what I have taken away from most experienced shooters and smiths but it's always nice to see it in someone else's words.

As far as the need for the rail- I don't intend to buy more than one of these pistols and I need it to do everything. I will be taking some low light courses next year and weapon mounted light is a requirement. I don't like the aftermarket retrofitting mounts. I do a considerable amount of dry fire practice. I already own several lights and light/laser combos. A set of CT grips might be on the menu at some point but I'm not sure. That is whole discussion unto itself that I'm sure everything I've thought of has already been thought of and discussed.

As far as fighting units that currently carry one? I teach many of the tier 1 guys on a regular basis my trade & when we get a chance to talk shop on their business, the results I get are surprising. They also widely vary as much as these forums. Some units are absolutely in love with the MP7-claiming single round kills at over 190m while some guys say they are tired of hitting haji 4 and 5 times and then cutting loose a burst to finish him off and silence the threat. The weight savings and compactness over the 416 are quickly out weighed by the extra ammunition they felt the need to carry to be effective. To each their own.

The 1911 topic is no different although while every single one of them have experience with the gun, none of the men I have worked with have ever carried one into combat. There are quite possibly better options out there for a .45 ACP chambered pistol. I do not have enough research on other platforms to decide which is the right gun for me. It is an iconic weapon. I appreciate the design for what it is. I am really glad to see innovations and modern thought applied to a 100 year old pistol that viably make it an option. I understand that asking the same round count in a day from a 1911 and a Glock will result in much more wear and tear on the 1911. That is part of the picture that I am ok with. I am not asking this pistol to be my nightstand gun (I live in an Apt so I have an 870 for that) & I have no intention of using it for CCW(right now, that's a J frame). My "home deffense and CCW boxes" are checked. For now...

Why do I want a 1911? Because there are more 'important to me' pros than cons on the list. It might be a 12 month learning experience leaving me wanting to sell it for something else. I am willing to spend $3500 in the next year in the gun and ammo to train with it to find out. If I get to the end of that point and decide there are issues I have with it and I don't like the gun, well I might be able to sell it with the accessories I pick up and recover 1k-1500 if I'm lucky. The worst thing I feel like is going to happen is I'm going to shoot around 2 grand worth of ammo and have a good time plus maybe learn something.

When I started shooting(yeah, yeah, a whole year ago-I know), I despised the entire Kalashnikov platform. Completely. When I broke down and bought a beater AK it did more for my AR shooting than any drill I've ever run. Shooting the AK made running an AR easier for me. The longer interval reloads and greater recoil combined with a sight system I deemed more difficult for me and that wonderful AK trigger brought my game way up on the AR. It got me out of "needing" all the cool accessories to make me shoot better. I stopped blaming my equipment "limitations" I set all by myself and started busting more rounds and learned to shoot better. I am really into the AK rifles now. My times and hits with my ARs are becoming more competitive as well. I also learned the value of gloves!:D

My Glock 17 is my #1 sidearm. I have the most time behind this gun and have been through what works and what doesn't for me. I am really happy with the level I can run it at this point. I do get to a point where during a training session, I simply cannot shoot any better and improvement stops. I work through a few more magazines when I recognize I've reached this point & switch to shooting something completely different like my bolt gun. I find that I can come back an hour later, shake it off and resume with my Glock after a few whaps on the hand from my J frame. I'm really looking forward to see what happens on paper & steel with me and a 1911. I might shoot it terribly. I might do better than I can with my Glock but I have got to believe that any positive shooting experience will have some positive effect on other shooting experiences. It might not make me actually go any faster with a Glock or any more accurate, but it just might make me aware of shooting flaws that I'm unaware of at the moment.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to help me out with this. I'll post pics of my new SA Operator when I get it.