View Full Version : The Big Steyr AUG MSAR AXR Saber Defense Bullpup Thread!
So....
I have long looked for a good bullpup rifle. Primarily, I am looking for a rifle that can be more easily managed in one hand. I once looked at the Bushmaster M17S. A friend had one. While it was neat, it really didn't seem like serious tool and it had little development outside of the hobby shooting world.
AUGs were running around $3k or better at the time. And I wasn't too sure about the AUG because there were reports of all sorts of teething issues and growing pains experienced by the Austrian Army as they transitioned to the AUG.
In Afghanistan, I had a chance to talk to a few Austrian SAS support guys. The SAS guys had M4's and they loved them. Their support guys had the standard issue AUG and didn't get anywhere near the range time that US Army SF support guys get. Most of these guys hand only been to the range a few time with their AUGs. All the same, they didn't hate the AUG they just wish they had M4s like all US troops.
So now it seems that the AUG platform is now becoming affordable again. I checked these threads:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28317
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38901
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38641
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38010
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35577
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30998
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30484
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29962
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24766
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22805
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28117
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4394
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25146
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=3194
And, I am left with more questions than answers. A little help here:
Do you think the AUG is fully developed like the M4?
What AUG to go with? It seems that Steyr is still importing them directly. Saber Defense is manufacturing them under license. Microtech has the MSAR. And Tactical Products Design builds the AXR. To further complicate things, it seems that the manufacturers have several different generations of each gun and various product improvements. And, it seems that each generation may have it's own unique issues. What manufacturer, what model, why?
Are all of the parts interchangeable?
How can I select my rail options? I think MSR has a two tiered rail. I think I like that. I want to be able to mount a light at 12:00 all the way forward and still mount an IR aiming laser. The Steyr A3 (I think) has a rail at 10 and 2 on their military gun, but they don't show this option on their civilian gun.
What is with the forward assist on some models? Is this really necessary? Can't the charging handle be used for this?
Would the charging handle get in the way of mounting a PEQ-2 at the 12?
Who makes a 1:7 twist bbl for the AUG. Steyr makes them for the Australian Army. Can we get them?
Anything else I need to know?
Thanks.
Austrian built AUGs were banned from import for civilian sales by the import ban of 1989.
Steyr now builds AUGs in the US with a mix of US and Austrian parts along with Saber arms.
The TPD is for the most part compatible with the Steyr in terms of parts; the Microtech isn't as they changed the dimensions of a lot of parts so that they are not compatable with a Steyr made AUG.
Of the TPD, Microtech, and US made Steyr manufactured by Saber, I found the US made Steyr to be the highest in quality and most reliable based on firing over 3000 rounds through the bunch.
Having said that, Microtech is lower priced than the US made Steyr and has been very good about dealing with customer problems if they do arise.
I would say try to check out the respective firearms, handle them, and decide for yourself.
Are all of the parts interchangeable?
As answered, no. Steyr parts work in the original Steyr AUG and the TPD. Most are not interchanable with the MSAR.
The Steyr A3 (I think) has a rail at 10 and 2 on their military gun, but they don't show this option on their civilian gun.
The civilian one only comes with the rail at 2'o'clock.
What is with the forward assist on some models? Is this really necessary? Can't the charging handle be used for this?
The early generation MSAR had them. The newer ones have done away with this.
In Afghanistan, I had a chance to talk to a few Austrian SAS support guys.
That would be Australian SAS, not Austrian. And to confuse matters more their AUGs are Australian and not Austrian. Their AUGs also suck and are far below the Austrian standard.
Do you think the AUG is fully developed like the M4?
Not sure exactly what you mean. It was fully developed in 1977, course so was the M16A2. Putting flat top rails is just an evolution in the design, doesn't really make either weapon more developed.
What AUG to go with? It seems that Steyr is still importing them directly. Saber Defense is manufacturing them under license. Microtech has the MSAR. And Tactical Products Design builds the AXR. To further complicate things, it seems that the manufacturers have several different generations of each gun and various product improvements. And, it seems that each generation may have it's own unique issues. What manufacturer, what model, why?
AUG A3 is the best bang for the buck. Made in the US under license from the original manufacturer. The A3 is the current model at "still be imported and hasn't been banned" prices.
Are all of the parts interchangeable?
Not always, some are and some aren't.
How can I select my rail options? I think MSR has a two tiered rail. I think I like that. I want to be able to mount a light at 12:00 all the way forward and still mount an IR aiming laser. The Steyr A3 (I think) has a rail at 10 and 2 on their military gun, but they don't show this option on their civilian gun.
If the A3 doesn't have enough rails for you in the right place they do make railed handguards for them.
What is with the forward assist on some models? Is this really necessary? Can't the charging handle be used for this?
And the factory AUG the charging handle has always been the FA. The MSAR has it to appeal to the AR-15 crowd.
Would the charging handle get in the way of mounting a PEQ-2 at the 12?
Not sure.
Who makes a 1:7 twist bbl for the AUG. Steyr makes them for the Australian Army. Can we get them?
Steyr doesn't make ANYTHING for the Australian army, they roll their own. Not sure if Steyr ever made 1:7s the old ones were 1:12 and the new ones are 1:9.
Anything else I need to know?
Thanks.
Don't let "Brand X uses AR mags" decide for you. Steyr makes a NATO stock which takes AR mags and it fits on any Steyr rifle. Personally I think you are better off using AUG mags (except for Pmags and the like which are just as good).
They are currently importing original Austrian military scopes at very good prices compared to the ACOGs and CQTs most folks are using. Will make your rifle much more collectible one day as well.
And if you decide to go with AUG mags buy 20 now while they are still affordable.
Thanks guys.
Yes, I get Australian vice Austrian.
I like Microtech's take on the AUG. Aesthetically, I think it has the best layout and I like the stippled finish on new style bodies. However, part compatibility concerns me. Why would they do this?
Mainly, I would want major wear parts to be compatible - trigger packs and barrels I think.
I would still like a 1:7 bbl. How does the 1:9 handle 62gr?
MSAR's are running about $500 less than anything else. Hopefully this pricing pressure will drive the price down on other AUGs. Has anyone seen a Saber Defense AUG yet. What are they priced like?
I like Microtech's take on the AUG. Aesthetically, I think it has the best layout and I like the stippled finish on new style bodies. However, part compatibility concerns me. Why would they do this?
Little confused, what do you like about the MSAR that doesn't exist on the AUG A3?
I would still like a 1:7 bbl. How does the 1:9 handle 62gr?
About the same as my 1:9 ARs handle it. I really see no difference between my 1:9 ARs and my 1:7 ARs.
MSAR's are running about $500 less than anything else. Hopefully this pricing pressure will drive the price down on other AUGs. Has anyone seen a Saber Defense AUG yet. What are they priced like?
Actually it is not a Sabre defense AUG, it is a Steyr AUG. Steyr brought all their tooling from Austria and a bunch of guys named Dieter and they are simply using Sabre as their domestic facility for compliance.
And I would not wait until AUG prices come down, they never will because demand will always exceed supply. And there is a reason the MSARs are about $500 less.
jagdkommando
10-29-09, 20:01
SteyrAUG, can you please state the facts you seem to know about "the reason the MSAR is $500 less? I am guessing this will turn out like the last thread where you stated that Steyr AUG's are made out of higher quality components and materials. You then ignored the thread when you were challanged on what exactly it was that you were referring to?
To the OP, the MSAR's are not made by guys named Dieter, they are made by guys named Paul, Bob, Keith, Shane, Dave and Tony. The money you spend on a MSAR stays in America. I can build you a MSAR with a 16",20", or 24" 1/8 twist chrome lined barrel. If you want I can build you a rifle with a 16" cold hammer forged FN barrel. I can do green, black, or tan, and I can do one that takes AR15 mags and I still build them that take STG-556 and AUG mags.
You will not go wrong buying a rifle from any of the three companies producing AUG type rifles today.
SteyrAUG, can you please state the facts you seem to know about "the reason the MSAR is $500 less? I am guessing this will turn out like the last thread where you stated that Steyr AUG's are made out of higher quality components and materials. You then ignored the thread when you were challanged on what exactly it was that you were referring to?
Pretty funny, I was actually pretty specific on that topic but it wasn't enough to satisfy a few people. And I certainly didn't ignore things when challenged, I answered the questions.
True I didn't make comments like "when stress tested for breakage the AUG barrel broke as such and such pressure and the MSAR barrel broke at such and such pressure."
I didn't compare the inherent metallurgy or each rifle and I didn't subject the furniture to a comparative acid test.
What I did offer was my opinion of both rifles and my knowledge of some of the factors regarding their manufacture. Anyone who would like to see this information can simply check out the thread you referenced.
Now if you have a specific question (rather than a general one) about some aspect of one rifle in contrast with the other, I will do my best to answer it.
So one more time for the rest of the class. What are the specific technical problems with the MSAR?
So one more time for the rest of the class. What are the specific technical problems with the MSAR?
I never stated there were any.
I think enough of them I own two and bought one for my brother. They just aren't the same quality as the Steyr rifle and for that reason (in addition to the inherent collectibility of the factory original) I recommended the AUG A3.
It's not a case of the MSAR being bad, it is the Steyr is better. But some people take that as severe criticism.
I always use the Bushmaster vs. Colt analogy, however as some people believe BM is non spec substandard shit in a box the analogy doesn't always work very well on this forum.
I personally have a couple Bushmasters and think they are also just fine. But I still like my Colts better.
jagdkommando
10-29-09, 21:37
MSAR is owned by a guy that is a gun nut that made a lot of money making very high quality automatic knives. He decided to build a gun and now we have the MSAR STG-556. We have had some problems along the way and dealt with every one of them in a way that ultimately improved our rifle. We found a way to improve our trunion so we did, and allowed folks to send their rifles in to replace their trunions. One time we had a few parts make it out the door that were not heat treated properly. We were able to isolate that batch of parts and get them fixed. We have also figured out things along the way to allow our rifle to work better. Combinations of spring weights, and gas port sizes. Extractor design and the material used to make them have been changed for the better over the course of our rifle building. We have produced about 16,000 MSAR rifles now and we have learned a lot in the process. If you buy a MSAR now, you will be buying a rifle that is good to go.
And don't forget, MSAR has never sold any rifles to Iran!
MSAR is owned by a guy that is a gun nut that made a lot of money making very high quality automatic knives. He decided to build a gun and now we have the MSAR STG-556. We have had some problems along the way and dealt with every one of them in a way that ultimately improved our rifle. We found a way to improve our trunion so we did, and allowed folks to send their rifles in to replace their trunions. One time we had a few parts make it out the door that were not heat treated properly. We were able to isolate that batch of parts and get them fixed. We have also figured out things along the way to allow our rifle to work better. Combinations of spring weights, and gas port sizes. Extractor design and the material used to make them have been changed for the better over the course of our rifle building. We have produced about 16,000 MSAR rifles now and we have learned a lot in the process. If you buy a MSAR now, you will be buying a rifle that is good to go.
And don't forget, MSAR has never sold any rifles to Iran!
I was gonna leave it alone until the Iran comment.
For all your trouble along the way, you still are gonna compare your product as "just as good" as the original manufacturer who has been producing the AUG without any of those problems for more than three decades?
Seriously?
Now let's talk about Iran. Steyr is a private company that is run according to their own decisions. Just as the owner of your company is free to decide how he runs things without being accountable to what Austria might prefer he do.
So the US finds out that Iran wants to buy Steyr products and they complained. At that point Steyr offered to cancel the order and not accept any future orders the US might object to IF the US (under the Bush Administration at the time) would allow the importation of Steyr products such as the AUG for sale to US citizens.
The United States government declined the offer and decided they would prefer Steyr to sell products to Iran rather and US citizens. People in the US should be rightly mad about this, but not at Steyr. Steyr actually made an attempt in the process of that negotiation of removing the 89 import ban.
Now I ask you, if YOU owned Steyr and the US wouldn't allow you to import your product into the country. Would you then allow that same country to dictate who you may sell your products to?
Furthermore, the fear was that Iranian obtained Steyr rifles would be used in Iraq.
The U.S. Central Command announced late 2007 that no Austrian rifle had been found or seized in Iraq as reported by the Austrian journal "Wiener Zeitung" on March 29.
http://www.wienerzeitung.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3856&Alias=wzo&cob=277367
Soooo, with out going to far off on a tangent.....
Personally, I would not get to wrapped around the axle with 'MilSpec.' Colt makes 'MilSpec' rifles. Noveske and LMT make rifles that are actual MilSpec but they also make guns and parts that exceed MilSpec, or do not meet any MilSpec at all but are still of higher quality than the official TDP.
If Microtech built a better mousetrap then more power to them. I am less worried about collectibility and more worried about shootibility. Both Microtech and Saber are making parts in the US. This takes away a lot of worry about supply shortages and import bans. I have a very technical background so I like to see technical data.
Now, I fully believe that Steyr is charging European prices and Saber is also having to bear that price for their license. Until I see a where Microtech is cutting corners by using lower quality materials or slacking on QC, I can only conclude that the $500 difference is based in the way Europeans do business and has nothing to do with quality. Somebody prove me wrong - please!
All that said, does anyone know anything about the AXR from TDP?
jagdkommando
10-30-09, 09:01
Kent Luttrel makes a fine rifle. The main difference his rifle has is that he machines his receiver out of a solid billet. He then uses a mixture of austrian parts combined with some parts he makes. If you give him a call he will answer any question you may have.
Here at MSAR we manufacture every part on the rifle except for the glass in the optic housing and the springs. This is what has allowed us to do the experimenting. For example, we used a couple different kinds of steel for our extractors. We use 17-4 stainless now and are very pleased with the performance. Since we switched to 17-4 we have not had one fail.
Josh_Denny
10-30-09, 12:26
I bought a MSAR STG-556. I bought it because at the time the TPD was not available in any reasonable quantity and Steyr was not doing the AUG here in the US anyway. In fact, I feel it is in large part due to MSAR that you can even get a new, US made/assembled Steyr AUG. For YEARS we (US shooters) have been begging for new AUGs at decent prices along with SIG 5xx series rifles. Right after the 94 ban ended SIG was hard at work to get us a US rifle. I can't sa yas though the 556 appeals to me, too much AR and not enough SIG 551. Of course now they have the 556 Classis or whatever they call it and that's a rifle I would own. Where was Steyr? Certainly not answering the calls & desires of US customers. Then MSAR take a HUGE leap for a knife company and builds an AUG clone, and not a crappy effort like some clones we have seen of things like the MP5, an actual quality built rifle. I haven't looked into timelines, etc. of when Steyr decided to bring the AUG here but they had a long time to do it, they could have done one that complied with the US AWB and didn't and the ban has been over for five years and they just now have it here. To me that shows they waited and saw the success of the MSAR rifles and the TPD and figured, "Okay, now that we know we can sell some there, let's go." That's all well and good but it also sucks, but it's their business to run.
I like my MSAR. I haven't used it enough to say that I would take it over one of my ARs but it's a solid rifle and everyone I know that holds it or uses it loves it. I have a shit ton of the MSAR mags for it and think they are better designed than standard AR magazines. Even though that's the case I am likely converting mine over with an E4 stock so I can use my AR mags. It's a matter of economics. I have about 100+ AR mags and about 20 MSAR mags. So I plan on selling the MSAR mags which will offset the E4 stock purchase and put some much appreciated capital in my bank account.
I've never held a new, US made Steyr AUG so I can't compare it to my MSAR. I shot a Steyr USR a few years back but can't fairly compare it to my MSAR unless I shot them side by side. I will say that the bullpup design is nice and once I train more with the MSAR I can forsee it becoming a "go to" gun. Bring me a 6.5 Grendel and a 10mm MSAR and I will sport wood. And while I'm dreaming, ho about a .458 SOCOM MSAR, STG-458 sounds so sweet!
Soooo, with out going to far off on a tangent.....
Personally, I would not get to wrapped around the axle with 'MilSpec.' Colt makes 'MilSpec' rifles. Noveske and LMT make rifles that are actual MilSpec but they also make guns and parts that exceed MilSpec, or do not meet any MilSpec at all but are still of higher quality than the official TDP.
If Microtech built a better mousetrap then more power to them. I am less worried about collectibility and more worried about shootibility. Both Microtech and Saber are making parts in the US. This takes away a lot of worry about supply shortages and import bans. I have a very technical background so I like to see technical data.
Now, I fully believe that Steyr is charging European prices and Saber is also having to bear that price for their license. Until I see a where Microtech is cutting corners by using lower quality materials or slacking on QC, I can only conclude that the $500 difference is based in the way Europeans do business and has nothing to do with quality. Somebody prove me wrong - please!
All that said, does anyone know anything about the AXR from TDP?
Well MSAR certainly didn't build a "better" mousetrap, but they built one that will catch mice just fine. And it isn't a matter of mil spec vs. non mil spec, I used the BM vs. Colt analogy to compare one rifle that functions in a perfectly acceptable manner to the same rifle but one with much more quality.
The MSAR will function just fine so long as you avoid the Limited Edition models that jagdkommando loosely referred to earlier. The main difference the average shooter will notice will be minor issues of fit and function. For example on every single on of my factory AUGs I can change the barrel with one hand. On both of my MSARs and the one I bought for my brother, it takes two hands. It is things like that, which might not even matter to some shooters.
Onto parts. I can't say what the availability will be for either rifle in 20 years. Apparently only 3,000 A3s will be available and that it, with or without a ban. So given that (if true) I can see where they might not still be importing parts 20 years from now. What I do know is I can still get parts for my 901 series that is more than 20 years old with no problems. And more importantly I have never needed to replace a single part on it since I bought it.
I have some spare parts I purchased (just in case) and they are in a box in their original wrapper with a bunch of other "just in case" parts from HK, Colt and FN that I haven't needed yet.
It does sound as though you have already decided on a MSAR in any case. And I don't really think you are interested in hearing anything other than the gun you have already decided to buy is safe to buy and won't blow up in your hands. If that is the case I can only say I'm still glad I own the two that I do. They aren't quite as nice as my factory AUGs but they are still nice rifles.
Where was Steyr?
Steyr, like every other foreign manufacturer who had their products continuously banned from importation was watching FN to see what happened with their domestically produced semi autos.
In 1989 Steyr, SIG, HK, FN and everyone else had their semi auto military rifles, which were made almost exclusively for the US, banned from import. Steyr then made a sporter version, the USR which was simply added to the list. HK attempted to make ban compliant firearms, the USC and the SL8 but in those days before stock block conversions these neutered firearms were completely ignored by all but the most dedicated HK enthusiast. Steyr and the others weren't going to follow that example so they, like HK and the others, focused on handguns for the US shooter, like the Steyr M.
What most US shooters do not know, because they didn't watch CSPAN is that the AW Ban did pass in 2004. Mere weeks before the expiration of the Clinton Ban Larry Craig-R introduced an industry protection bill which was designed to prevent firearm manufacturers from being sued for criminal misuse of their products. And a Republican majority Congress under the Bush Administration successfully amended the reimplementation of the domestic assault weapon ban (this time with no sunset) to that bill. Larry Craig then killed his own bill (and how many legislators are willing to do that?) rather than see it passed with the AW Ban attached to it. And that is the only reason people own things like the LE6920, the FN2000 and a bunch of other cool stuff.
And while most US shooters were oblivious to this development it certainly didn't go unnoticed by HK, Steyr, SIG and others who had previously lost large sums of money when US legislation effected their markets. FN had the least amount of risk since they had a domestic facility in the US to produce weapons for the military so they began to manufacture 922r semi auto domestic versions of their military firearms for the US market. And as a result they owned the market for a few years while HK, Steyr and SIG watched what happened.
Eventually, after seeing FN make and sell FN2000s and PS90s and no US law coming along to make all that R&D effort a losing gamble, the other guys felt safe enough to enter the market in the same way. As a result we have the SIG 556, the Steyr A3 and the announced HK 556 and 762 rifles.
And that is where Steyr was.
Josh_Denny
10-30-09, 15:38
Well as far as I'm concerned if MSAR and the guys making the TPD didn't show there was a market for AUG styled rifles by selling 15,000+ rifles in the time since the ban ended I doubt Steyr would be making an AUG here.
H&K's USC & SL-8 bombed here because they weren't anything special. They were highly expensive due to the low value of the dollar and H&K's over valuing of the product. These "ban compliant" firearms sucked. While I understand the fact that they were neutered due to our laws if they were domestically produced here in the states they could have made them accept AR mags and put a flash hider on it and kept the dumbhole stock and left the muzzle unthreaded. I am one of the guys that bought an SL-8 because I was supporting HK so they would make more stuff for the US market. The SL-8 was okay but it was not a $1400 rifle or whatever jacked up price I paid.
You are right, I was not aware of the Larry Craig bill and what Congress tried to amend to it. So we all owe a big Thank You! to Larry Craig for pulling the plug on his own bill to keep a permanent AWB from happening.
While it is smart business to definitely feel out th market before delving into a potential unknown, what R&D did Steyr need for the AUG? Haven't they been making them for about 25+ years? And R&D for H&K on the HK556, what R&D? They had the 416 which they already developed so making it here would take what? A lower with no full auto. Besides, with US civilians making up the largest civilian gun buying & owning group in the world, how could it hurt to set-up manufacturing facilities here? I realize H&K and Steyr and some of the others prefer to go after military & government sales but how many US gun owners are there, 20 million+?
So now I know where Steyr was, playing it safe. MSAR on the other hand didn't play it safe, they dove in head first, and it paid off. MSAR equal or better than a Steyr AUG? I don't know first hand and it doesn't matter to me. It's like anything else in the world, there's always something better. If it fits the role and keeps going round after round what more can I ask for? For the time being both arms of mine work well so I don't need to do a one handed barrel change so I'll keep my MSAR and support a US company. A US company that decided to take on the daunting task of building a rifle that at the time no one else wanted to build and sell here in the US.
Ultimately I don't care either way. I have no special loyalty to MSAR but I think what they did is commendable. And since I bought a rifle they made and it performs well and fits my needs I am proud to support them. I have nothing against Steyr, and quite frankly if they did try to negotiate with the US to get their rifles legal for civilian here during the ban then they deserve kudos for that. If I hade endless income I would own one of each: AUG, MSAR & TPD. Unfortunately I don't and see no need to sell one to buy another. If Steyr made the AUG here for civilian sale when I was shopping for a bullpup I likely would have bought it instead. In a way I'm glad they didn't because I doubt they will be offering it in other calibers and I like the idea of a 6.8 SPC & perhaps a pistol caliber.
Well as far as I'm concerned if MSAR and the guys making the TPD didn't show there was a market for AUG styled rifles by selling 15,000+ rifles in the time since the ban ended I doubt Steyr would be making an AUG here.
Steyr had been looking for someone that they would consider a suitable production partner in the US for a while. There was talks with various companies that ultimately went nowhere. They first officially announced their partnership with Sabre in July or Aug of 2008, if I remember correctly. But before then, talks, plans, and preparations between them and Sabre had been going on for a while. Both TPD and MSAR best them to the market. Steyr is a wierd company and takes forever to do things and doesn't always do things that make sense to a lot of people. The US startup companies, on the other hand, had been going full speed ahead.
I don't doubt seeing the market in the US as evidenced by lots of MSARs sold affected Steyr's opinion. They were equally worried that once the ban expired in 2004 that another ban might be introduced, so they moved cautiously about setting up production in the US.
The expiration of the Assault weapons ban in Sept of 2004 allowed them to build a gun in the US with formerly prohibbited features. The permanent import ban of 2009 prevented them from bringing anything in made overseas.
MSAR equal or better than a Steyr AUG? I don't know first hand and it doesn't matter to me.
All I can say is compare the two guns side by side and decide for yourself.
Both the MSAR and TPD guns that I had for evaluation needed to go back to the factory for repairs to function reliably. The Steyr worked 100%.
I will say that from everything I have seen MSAR has excellent & very responsive customer service in terms of repairing guns that don't work reliably as well as helping people get set up with a gun that meets their needs.
Well as far as I'm concerned if MSAR and the guys making the TPD didn't show there was a market for AUG styled rifles by selling 15,000+ rifles in the time since the ban ended I doubt Steyr would be making an AUG here.
The difference is TPD and MSAR already had a facility here. Steyr had to set one up or find one. They did approach another US firearms manufacturer before coming to a deal with Sabre.
H&K's USC & SL-8 bombed here because they weren't anything special. They were highly expensive due to the low value of the dollar and H&K's over valuing of the product. These "ban compliant" firearms sucked. While I understand the fact that they were neutered due to our laws if they were domestically produced here in the states they could have made them accept AR mags and put a flash hider on it and kept the dumbhole stock and left the muzzle unthreaded. I am one of the guys that bought an SL-8 because I was supporting HK so they would make more stuff for the US market. The SL-8 was okay but it was not a $1400 rifle or whatever jacked up price I paid.
All true, what you are missing is HK did NOT have a facility set up to produce them domestically. They would have had to pay for such a facility and they weren't about to take that financial risk given the past history of the US gun laws. Can't really say I blame them.
You are right, I was not aware of the Larry Craig bill and what Congress tried to amend to it. So we all owe a big Thank You! to Larry Craig for pulling the plug on his own bill to keep a permanent AWB from happening.
You are not alone in not being aware of how close we all came. And despite alleged mens room activities we all owe our current freedoms to one man who decided to actually represent us.
While it is smart business to definitely feel out th market before delving into a potential unknown, what R&D did Steyr need for the AUG? Haven't they been making them for about 25+ years? And R&D for H&K on the HK556, what R&D? They had the 416 which they already developed so making it here would take what? A lower with no full auto. Besides, with US civilians making up the largest civilian gun buying & owning group in the world, how could it hurt to set-up manufacturing facilities here? I realize H&K and Steyr and some of the others prefer to go after military & government sales but how many US gun owners are there, 20 million+?
Well Steyr had to R&D a semi only version of the AUG A3. More importantly, as noted earlier, they had to either build a facility or form some kind of partnership with an existing US facility. They did the latter. But they weren't about to do anything until they had a reasonable expectation that their domestically produced semi auto wouldn't be banned the same year it was introduced.
As for the HK 556, it is a much different animal than the 416. ATF would never permit an imported version of a rifle that had too much in common with the 416. US legal barrel lengths, offset pin hole and a completely different fire control group were all necessary to get the US government seal of approval.
As for US civilian sales, try and remember that used to be their main thing. Back in the 80s the HK91 and Steyr AUG were popular because they very much did want the market. It was our government that repeatedly slammed the door on them. And if you were the owner of HK or Steyr, I suspect you'd eventually get tired of it and tell the US market to "call you when they get their import laws worked out."
So now I know where Steyr was, playing it safe. MSAR on the other hand didn't play it safe, they dove in head first, and it paid off. MSAR equal or better than a Steyr AUG? I don't know first hand and it doesn't matter to me. It's like anything else in the world, there's always something better. If it fits the role and keeps going round after round what more can I ask for? For the time being both arms of mine work well so I don't need to do a one handed barrel change so I'll keep my MSAR and support a US company. A US company that decided to take on the daunting task of building a rifle that at the time no one else wanted to build and sell here in the US.
MSAR didn't have the same track record of being screwed by the US government. But you are correct Steyr was playing it safe, as would you if it was your company. Also got to remember Microtech already had an existing facility, Steyr had to find one. And how long was the MSAR out before the AUG A3 was in the works? A year? Not exactly a huge difference.
Ultimately I don't care either way. I have no special loyalty to MSAR but I think what they did is commendable. And since I bought a rifle they made and it performs well and fits my needs I am proud to support them. I have nothing against Steyr, and quite frankly if they did try to negotiate with the US to get their rifles legal for civilian here during the ban then they deserve kudos for that. If I hade endless income I would own one of each: AUG, MSAR & TPD. Unfortunately I don't and see no need to sell one to buy another. If Steyr made the AUG here for civilian sale when I was shopping for a bullpup I likely would have bought it instead. In a way I'm glad they didn't because I doubt they will be offering it in other calibers and I like the idea of a 6.8 SPC & perhaps a pistol caliber.
No argument with that. And like I said, I own two MSARs and am quite happy with them as well. I'm just answering the questions as they are raised. And it is almost a certainty that Steyr will not be offering a 6.8 option. Anyone who desires that kind of flexibility in an AUG platform definitely is shopping for a MSAR.
In the end I'm just happy Larry Craig blocked tackle for us and we are buying MSARs, Colt LE rifles, AUG A3s and all the fun rifles that we denied to us for many years. I was really worried it might not happen.
I never stated there were any.
I think enough of them I own two and bought one for my brother. They just aren't the same quality as the Steyr rifle and for that reason (in addition to the inherent collectibility of the factory original) I recommended the AUG A3.
It's not a case of the MSAR being bad, it is the Steyr is better. But some people take that as severe criticism.
I always use the Bushmaster vs. Colt analogy, however as some people believe BM is non spec substandard shit in a box the analogy doesn't always work very well on this forum.
I personally have a couple Bushmasters and think they are also just fine. But I still like my Colts better.
I am very curious to see such an impressive collection of politically incorrect rifles..care to show a few pics (especially the AUG's and STG's together). I have watched you in the past threads bash MSAR and was wondering why someone so critical of their quality would corrupt their collection with three (two for you and one for your brother) rifles if you find AUG's better.;)
Before we go WAY off topic I would have to say to put your money on the MSAR, here are my reasons:
While all three rifles are going to be made well, MSAR's CS is outstanding...the very best CS I have ever had in any firearms company so I think that deserves our support just a little more.
They offer a varity of options in their rifles to include other calibers and as mentioned the E4 model accepts MOST AR mags.
The AUG A3 cost more that the MSAR and from what people have said the only thing you seem to be paying for is the name on the rifle.
I agree with an earlier post that if it wasn't for them other companies would probably not be so quick to offer bullpup rifles in our market (rumors of the TAVOR and L85 being built here).
The AUG A3 cost more that the MSAR and from what people have said the only thing you seem to be paying for is the name on the rifle.
And that is what I am trying find out! What am I getting out of the $2000+ Steyr that the $1500- MSAR is not giving me?
I am looking for a light handy rifle that can effectively wielded with one hand.
And, I can't believe I can't believe this didn't come to me earlier - Microtech! Yes, their CS is legendary and Marfione knows his business. I fully believe that can do with his rifle business what he did with hid knife business.
All the same, I am pretty open minded as to which rifle I buy. I am simply looking for the best deal.
And that is what I am trying find out! What am I getting out of the $2000+ Steyr that the $1500- MSAR is not giving me?
I am looking for a light handy rifle that can effectively wielded with one hand.
And, I can't believe I can't believe this didn't come to me earlier - Microtech! Yes, their CS is legendary and Marfione knows his business. I fully believe that can do with his rifle business what he did with hid knife business.
All the same, I am pretty open minded as to which rifle I buy. I am simply looking for the best deal.
That would be my choice...I can tell you (and I have said it a lot) the MSAR rifle I trust with my life. I use it as my primary patrol rifle and also as my competition rifle (civilian and police). Dave at MSAR has been nothing but excellent to me and I have told him I would always plug his companies product. I am sure the AUG A3 is just as reliable and accurate but I still think that Microtech deserves cudos for giving us back our bullpup friend.. :)
FYI MSAR barrels are all 1:8 twist and are supposed to be the best compromise between barrels that like light (1:7) and barrels that like heavy (1:9) bullets. My best group at 100 yards was .51 inches with 52 grain seirra loads and 1.5 inches with 77grain TAP (see "Have to eat a little crow about the MSAR ") for pics..
I am very curious to see such an impressive collection of politically incorrect rifles..care to show a few pics (especially the AUG's and STG's together). I have watched you in the past threads bash MSAR and was wondering why someone so critical of their quality would corrupt their collection with three (two for you and one for your brother) rifles if you find AUG's better.;)
Pics have been up before but here you go again. Not all of them, but you get the idea. And to the best of my knowledge I have never "bashed" MSARs. You won't find me saying "they suck", "they are junk" or "I'd never own one." I have however offered honest criticisms and comparisons to other rifles. I have a LOT of rifles that aren't as good as other rifles I own, doesn't mean those rifles are bad rifles.
My two A3s.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4122/00000000253.jpg
One of my 901s.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9461/00000000046ea5.jpg
My two MSARs (I didn't think to take a picture of the one I got my brother).
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3239/p1003766db8.jpg
Josh_Denny
11-03-09, 08:59
If I had a lot more money I would own one from each company. I may have said it before as well, but if the Steyr was available when I had the funds to add a bullpup I would have probably bought it over the MSAR. It wasn't and I didn't and I am pleased with my purchase. I just got an E4 stock so I am going to convert my MSAR over to the E4 and see how I like that and then likely sell my standard STG556 stock and the s**t ton of MSAR mags. I like the MSAR mag design but I have so many AR mags it seems like a no brainer to go that way.
The last thing I want to say to the whole Steyr vs MSAR thing is that while MSAR had an existing US facility they had a knife manufacturing facility and did not at the time manufacture a gun. I guess we can split hairs on which is more of a feat: setting up a US facility or partnership with a US company and already having a working gun design and MANY years experience making guns or having an exisitng facility with NO experience making guns and no current gun design. I don't have my opinions so people can agree with me but it is nice to see Alaskacop agrees that MSAR helped to set the market for other bullpups and for Steyr to come here to make the AUG.
jagdkommando
11-03-09, 14:08
I am curious why you deleted that last post. I am sure you know the complete story on why the Marfiones decided not to partner with Steyr.
I am curious why you deleted that last post. I am sure you know the complete story on why the Marfiones decided not to partner with Steyr.
I know a few things about it, but it served no purpose to bring it up and would only be seen as slinging mud. Despite what you may thing my purpose is not to bash anyone.
tombirdman
11-05-09, 19:16
Pretty funny, I was actually pretty specific on that topic but it wasn't enough to satisfy a few people. And I certainly didn't ignore things when challenged, I answered the questions.
True I didn't make comments like "when stress tested for breakage the AUG barrel broke as such and such pressure and the MSAR barrel broke at such and such pressure."
I didn't compare the inherent metallurgy or each rifle and I didn't subject the furniture to a comparative acid test.
What I did offer was my opinion - {WORTHLESS} of both rifles and my [COLOR="Red"]knowledge[ - WHAT KNOWLEDGE/COLOR] of some of the factors regarding their manufacture. Anyone who would like to see this information can simply check out the thread you referenced.
Now if you have a specific question (rather than a general one) about some aspect of one rifle in contrast with the other, I will do my best to answer it.
If you are reading this guy for the first time { HE IS ONE OF THOSE WHO IS A LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND.} He wouldn't know the difference between cabage and sauer kraut ! Take everything he says with a grain of salt !
The MSAR STG556 E-4 is the best of all the Augs.
Sells more than all others combined, uses all American parts - no bans to worry about, best materials used, best customer service and best availability !
tombirdman
11-05-09, 19:31
Little confused, what do you like about the MSAR that doesn't exist on the AUG A3?
About the same as my 1:9 ARs handle it. I really see no difference between my 1:9 ARs and my 1:7 ARs.
Actually it is not a Sabre defense AUG, it is a Steyr AUG. Steyr brought all their tooling from Austria and a bunch of guys named Dieter and they are simply using Sabre as their domestic facility for compliance. { YES AND YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PARTS BAN OF AUTRIAN PARTS, AMERICANS MAKE THE GUNS NOT AUSTRIANS, THEY ARE A HIGH PRICED MSAR !And I would not wait until AUG prices come down, they never will because demand will always exceed supply. And there is a reason the MSARs are about $500 less.
MSAR BEATS THE COMPETITION SO WHY THE FUSS !
The MSAR STG556 E-4 is the best of all the Augs.
Then how come many people are having trouble getting them to function with aluminum or steel GI style magazines?
Sells more than all others combined
That doesn't necessarily make it better. If that was the case McDonald's would make the best hamburgers in the world. The fact that they sell so many is a reflection of how many are made, the more affordable price, the fact that they became available within a few years of the expriation of the assault weapons ban, the fact that AUGs were more expensive because they could not be imported any more for civilian sales, which got people interested in the AUG.
If you are reading this guy for the first time { HE IS ONE OF THOSE WHO IS A LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND.} He wouldn't know the difference between cabage and sauer kraut ! Take everything he says with a grain of salt !
The MSAR STG556 E-4 is the best of all the Augs.
Sells more than all others combined, uses all American parts - no bans to worry about, best materials used, best customer service and best availability !
If hes full of himself because of his opinion that makes you just as full of yourself because of yours!
He has backed himself up w/ his opinion on why, yet you make a blanket statement like we should take your word over his.
What makes your opinion more right than his? What proof do you have that 'yours' is better made, better material and that more are sold?
or is it because 'you say so' sorta like the pot calling the kettle black
QuietShootr
11-06-09, 00:43
If you are reading this guy for the first time { HE IS ONE OF THOSE WHO IS A LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND.} He wouldn't know the difference between cabage and sauer kraut ! Take everything he says with a grain of salt !
The MSAR STG556 E-4 is the best of all the Augs.
Sells more than all others combined, uses all American parts - no bans to worry about, best materials used, best customer service and best availability !
Actually, he knows his shit, has been around since kids were spanking it to ASCII porn off of Compuserve, and is definitely the go-to guy for AUG information.
Who are you, again?
Actually, he knows his shit, has been around since kids were spanking it to ASCII porn off of Compuserve, and is definitely the go-to guy for AUG information.
Who are you, again?
You must personally know him then...his profile says he signed up in July 2009, dont know for sure he's been around since ASCII porn (:confused:). Guess this dates me as well.
Anyway...I think it boils down to personal tastes, not which one works better because I think that all of them are just about the same in areas that concern people. True, MSAR did have issues at first but they were very quick to fix the problems, just like every other firearms company in history. In my opinion, the E4 makes the best choice, if you have to pick just one, because of the mag issue and also because it will be offered in other calibers.
[QUOTE=Ed L.;489871]Then how come many people are having trouble getting them to function with aluminum or steel GI style magazines?
In the post I have read, most of the problems are follower issues (just like any AR mag) and not in the design of the rifle. My buddy owns quite a few AR's and one of the first things he did with all his GI and aluminum mags was replace the followers because of malfunction issues. The only mags that will not work in the E4's are Lancer's...considering all the companies making magazines (good and bad ones) you are bound to have an occassional issue.
tombirdman
11-06-09, 11:22
Then how come many people are having trouble getting them to function with aluminum or steel GI style magazines? { They Arent !!! }
That doesn't necessarily make it better. If that was the case McDonald's would make the best hamburgers in the world. The fact that they sell so many is a reflection of how many are made, the more affordable price, the fact that they became available within a few years of the expriation of the assault weapons ban, the fact that AUGs were more expensive because they could not be imported any more for civilian sales, which got people interested in the AUG.
I have not experienced this. I have not heard of others experiencing it either.
tombirdman
11-06-09, 11:27
Then how come many people are having trouble getting them to function with aluminum or steel GI style magazines?
That doesn't necessarily make it better. If that was the case McDonald's would make the best hamburgers in the world. The fact that they sell so many is a reflection of how many are made, the more affordable price, the fact that they became available within a few years of the expriation of the assault weapons ban, the fact that AUGs were more expensive because they could not be imported any more for civilian sales, which got people interested in the AUG.
You are talking about a different type of buyer when it comes to guns.
1. Pride of ownership
2. Expense
3. Gun owners only buy what they feel is best and usually won't buy second best.
tombirdman
11-06-09, 12:34
I made some broad, unsupported statements, that's true. There were other of the same type statements from the other side.
My point is that neither side is correct or backed up by facts, ONLY EMOTION !
This whole conversation is, pretty, irrelevant !
So if you think you might like to look at MSAR - do so.
If you think you might want to look at the American made AUG - do so.
No one really cares.
Buy what you like, or don't buy at all !
There are a lot of good and great guns to be had here in America, we are lucky!
I can say, for sure, that I am happy with my MSAR STG556 E-4 and the service and support I receive from MSAR. That is the only 100% true fact !
Tom:D
I have not experienced this. I have not heard of others experiencing it either.
My friend who bought an E4 is experiencing this with magazines that worked 100% in his ARs. TOS has threads about other people experiencing this.
I can say, for sure, that I am happy with my MSAR STG556 E-4 and the service and support I receive from MSAR. That is the only 100% true fact ![/B]
What service and support did you receive?
tombirdman
11-06-09, 15:25
What service and support did you receive?
My son lost his gas piston and spring while doing some law enforcement training.
His Fault. Dave - customer service Msar, next day aired the parts to him - free.
He also upraded his stock to an E-4 free.
My son serves dangerous warants. Dave went over his gun personally to make sure it was SWAT ready and sent it back free, in 3 days.http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTech-1.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTech-1.jpg)
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_000bushmasterm4customIMG_0072-1.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?URL=http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=000bushmasterm4customIMG_0072-1.jpg)action=view¤t=IMG_0021.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0021.jpg[/URL]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_withThompsonSMG.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=withThompsonSMG.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_000fnfalfnfs2000spas12IMG_0078.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=000fnfalfnfs2000spas12IMG_0078.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_MyOffice-Guns-211.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=MyOffice-Guns-211.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0389.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0389.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0402.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0402.jpg)
We are both pleased with http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0232.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0232.jpg)the service and support that we have received from MSAR.
I am reporting what I know and feel about my family and our guns.
We have many other black rifles and enjoy them all.
If a person has problems or needs help with their STG556 all they have to do is get a hold of Dave in "The Gun Room" at MSAR - Phone 814 363 9260 - extension 18 or email [ gunroom@msarinc.com ] you will be,more than happy with the service and support !
Thanks,
Tom
.
Just sticking to the subject of MSARS.
Guys, any chance we could cool it on the personal attacks? I would like to keep this thread from getting locked. I was hoping this thread could be informative for people wanting to get a good bullpup.
Sells more than all others combined, uses all American parts - no bans to worry about, best materials used, best customer service and best availability !
Now this is quantifiable information that people can use. I don't know about sales figures but when I look around at gunshows and gun shops I do see the MSAR more often with the occasional token Steyr AUG being sold at collector's prices.
Availability, support and service are important factors. As I understand it from their web site, the MSAR uses 90% American made parts. I wonder what the other 10% are?
For what it's worth, TDP is making their own springs out of Inconel.
tombirdman
11-07-09, 14:07
My son lost his gas piston and spring while doing some law enforcement training.
His Fault. Dave - customer service Msar, next day aired the parts to him - free.
He also upraded his stock to an E-4 free.
My son serves dangerous warants. Dave went over his gun personally to make sure it was SWAT ready and sent it back free, in 3 days.http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTech-1.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTech-1.jpg)
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_000bushmasterm4customIMG_0072-1.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?URL=http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=000bushmasterm4customIMG_0072-1.jpg)action=view¤t=IMG_0021.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0021.jpg[/URL]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_withThompsonSMG.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=withThompsonSMG.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_000fnfalfnfs2000spas12IMG_0078.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=000fnfalfnfs2000spas12IMG_0078.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_MyOffice-Guns-211.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=MyOffice-Guns-211.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0389.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0389.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0402.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0402.jpg)
We are both pleased with http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0232.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0232.jpg)the service and support that we have received from MSAR.
I am reporting what I know and feel about my family and our guns.
We have many other black rifles and enjoy them all.
If a person has problems or needs help with their STG556 all they have to do is get a hold of Dave in "The Gun Room" at MSAR - Phone 814 363 9260 - extension 18 or email [ gunroom@msarinc.com ] you will be,more than happy with the service and support !
Thanks,
Tom
.http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_000FNPS90IMG_02815.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=000FNPS90IMG_02815.jpg)
Just sticking to the subject of MSARS.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_BUSHMASTERM4CUSTOM-FNFS2000010.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=BUSHMASTERM4CUSTOM-FNFS2000010.jpg)
.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_gunIMG_0015.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=gunIMG_0015.jpg)
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_MSARSTG556WITH5XOPTICEOTECHBL30RDMA.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=MSARSTG556WITH5XOPTICEOTECHBL30RDMA.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0019.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0019.jpg)http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTechMag.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=0000000000000000Sig556SwatEOTechMag.jpg)
tombirdman
11-11-09, 22:03
URL=http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0249.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombihttp://i968.photobhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0250.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0252.jpg)ucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0252.jpgrdman/th_IMG_0249.jpg[/IMGhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0253_edited-1.jpg (http://s968.phhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0252.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0252.jpg)s/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0249.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0249.jpg][/URL]
URL=http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0249.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombihttp://i968.photobhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0250.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0252.jpg)ucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0252.jpgrdman/th_IMG_0249.jpg[/IMGhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0253_edited-1.jpg (http://s968.phhttp://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0252.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0252.jpg)s/ae167/tombirdman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0249.jpg]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/tombirdman/th_IMG_0249.jpg][/URL]
What department does you son work at?
I've owned all three. I've wanted an AUG since I can remember, and needed to try them all. Here's what I ended up with:
http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2222/web.jpg?ver=12526268400001
...but just for kicks, I also have this option:
http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_5835/web.jpg?ver=12552789370001
The A3 drops into a MSAR E4 stock and runs perfectly. I would not hesitate to own a MSAR again, but Steyr won out by a small margin this time. TPD does some incredible work, but I wanted more of a mainstream rifle than a boutique piece.
Now I'm waiting for jagdkommando to let me know when he gets more FN 1/7 hammer forged bbls in, then I'm sending my A3 to him to have one fitted. Yes Virginia, a surprising number of MSAR parts work with the Steyr/AXR. ;)
I made some broad, unsupported statements, that's true. There were other of the same type statements from the other side.
My point is that neither side is correct or backed up by facts, ONLY EMOTION !
This whole conversation is, pretty, irrelevant !
Tom:D
That is hardly true.
If I had emotions about one gun vs. the other I wouldn't own both. As you know very well I have several of each. I'm not gonna waste any time rehashing what I have already stated in my observations of one firearm vs. the other, anyone can reread it for themselves.
I've owned all three. I've wanted an AUG since I can remember, and needed to try them all. Here's what I ended up with:
http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2222/web.jpg?ver=12526268400001
...but just for kicks, I also have this option:
http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_5835/web.jpg?ver=12552789370001
The A3 drops into a MSAR E4 stock and runs perfectly. I would not hesitate to own a MSAR again, but Steyr won out by a small margin this time. TPD does some incredible work, but I wanted more of a mainstream rifle than a boutique piece.
Now I'm waiting for jagdkommando to let me know when he gets more FN 1/7 hammer forged bbls in, then I'm sending my A3 to him to have one fitted. Yes Virginia, a surprising number of MSAR parts work with the Steyr/AXR. ;)
Can you please give me a rundown on the differences between the Steyr and the Microtech? Is there any tangible difference in the two guns?
Prices on the MSAR rifles that use the AUG magazines has been plummeting and I'd like to get one of these rifles. But I don't want to base any purchase on price alone.
Thank you.
My article on the new Steyr AUG a3/SA is in the Jan 2010 issue of SWAT that will be on the magazine stands shortly.
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