View Full Version : Too many guns?
While protecting the citizens of my fair city, I had an interesting alarm call. My partner and I were dispatched to one of the miniature castles of the rich in our city (there are not many) on a perimeter motion sensor alarm. As fate would have it, there was an unlocked door, which meant a search of the beast for any burglars.
In one of the offices, we found stacks upon stacks of rifles, shotguns, manufactured fire arms parts and ammo, laying about. I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment, but I could not help but feel that there was possibly something shady going on. Our most knowledgeable LT. came and checked things out and ultimately determined that nothing was immediately in violation of law which saved my partner a ton of research (his beat) and me from writing a long supplemental report.
The ultimate crux of this post is, can the rich be so incredibly indulgent as to be so careless! There were potentially enough weapons to arm a full size (WW2) Infantry Platoon, laying carelessly about. I worry about ambushes and gang members carrying more weaponry than me enough, but I don't need some rich, lazy SOB arming any of them as well.
Ok, I am done ranting.
badhabit90
10-29-09, 23:33
see anything interesting??:D
meh...just be glad we live in a country where we can have guns lying around anywhere. Its his house he can do whatever he wants short of breaking a law. I could see the concern if he has kids but beyond that I really wouldn't care.
The ultimate crux of this post is, can the rich be so incredibly indulgent as to be so careless! There were potentially enough weapons to arm a full size (WW2) Infantry Platoon, laying carelessly about. I worry about ambushes and gang members carrying more weaponry than me enough, but I don't need some rich, lazy SOB arming any of them as well.
Ok, I am done ranting.
You do understand that you are in a sense blaming a potential victim for the action of criminals because they didn't make things hard enough for the criminal. This is almost the "she was dressed wrong and thus encouraged her rapist to attack her" sentiment.
There was a time when gun collections were proudly displayed on walls, in racks or at the very least behind glass doors of a fine cabinet. And it was understood that if a criminal entered a mans home it was the fault of the criminal and only the criminal.
In the Brady states they make gun owners out to be criminals who conspire to arm gang bangers if their state approved firearms are in anything less than a bank vault.
Now I fully understand the day and age we live in, and that is why my collection isn't proudly displayed on my wall as it should be. But it is a sad day when we decide to blame the law abiding citizen because he didn't make himself hard enough to victimize.
The real problem, for both you and the homeowner, is that we've simply become too tolerant of crime and criminals.
There is legal, and then there is ethical. The right thing to do is the right thing to do.
The vast majority of guns I see on the street are stolen, fact of life. As responsible gun owners we should care that our guns don't end up in the wrong hands and create more bad press for all of us to deal, especially when it is so easy to make sure it doesn't happen.
Recently we had a guy here who lost over $48,000 worth of guns (not to mention plasma TVs, etc), all just laying around his house. Included in his collection were several AR 15s and AR10s, AKs, etc.
He had no safe, or alarm system, and no more than the normal cheesy doors and locks most houses have nowadays.
He went on vacation and didn't have a neighbor/friend/family looking after the place, didn't have his mail or paper held, and he didn't make any request for extra patrol (we have a vacation check process here at my job, takes but a phone call).
I am in this case actually blaming the victim for facilitating this crime. His actions were just plain stupid and irresponsible.
Getting drunk and walking through dark alleys with a $100 bill hanging from your pocket is no more smart than rubbing yourself in bacon grease and swimming in an alligator pond.
In addition, in these cases other people will have to deal with the consequences of the stupidity as these guns will get used somewhere soon.
If someone can afford tens of thousands of dollars worth of guns, and can't be bothered to buy a safe to store them in, then IMHO they are part of the problem.
As a line in a movie once stated "quit being part of the ****ing problem".
DocHolliday01
10-30-09, 00:25
There is legal, and then there is ethical. The right thing to do is the right thing to do.
The vast majority of guns I see on the street are stolen, fact of life. As responsible gun owners we should care that our guns don't end up in the wrong hands and create more bad press for all of us to deal, especially when it is so easy to make sure it doesn't happen.
Recently we had a guy here who lost over $48,000 worth of guns (not to mention plasma TVs, etc), all just laying around his house. Included in his collection were several AR 15s and AR10s, AKs, etc.
He had no safe, or alarm system, and no more than the normal cheesy doors and locks most houses have nowadays.
He went on vacation and didn't have a neighbor/friend/family looking after the place, didn't have his mail or paper held, and he didn't make any request for extra patrol (we have a vacation check process here at my job, takes but a phone call).
I am in this case actually blaming the victim for facilitating this crime. His actions were just plain stupid and irresponsible.
Getting drunk and walking through dark alleys with a $100 bill hanging from your pocket is no more smart than rubbing yourself in bacon grease and swimming in an alligator pond.
In addition, in these cases other people will have to deal with the consequences of the stupidity as these guns will get used somewhere soon.
If someone can afford tens of thousands of dollars worth of guns, and can't be bothered to buy a safe to store them in, then IMHO they are part of the problem.
As a line in a movie once stated "quit being part of the ****ing problem".
Well said, why is it so hard to buy a nice safe or an alarm for your home? A lot of good it does to collect all those guns when you have them strung out in the house instead of locked in a safe.
For what it's worth, all my rich buddies don't associate with the homies whatsoever. They would not arm them in fear that they would take their riches.
There is legal, and then there is ethical. The right thing to do is the right thing to do.
The vast majority of guns I see on the street are stolen, fact of life. As responsible gun owners we should care that our guns don't end up in the wrong hands and create more bad press for all of us to deal, especially when it is so easy to make sure it doesn't happen.
Recently we had a guy here who lost over $48,000 worth of guns (not to mention plasma TVs, etc), all just laying around his house. Included in his collection were several AR 15s and AR10s, AKs, etc.
He had no safe, or alarm system, and no more than the normal cheesy doors and locks most houses have nowadays.
He went on vacation and didn't have a neighbor/friend/family looking after the place, didn't have his mail or paper held, and he didn't make any request for extra patrol (we have a vacation check process here at my job, takes but a phone call).
I am in this case actually blaming the victim for facilitating this crime. His actions were just plain stupid and irresponsible.
Getting drunk and walking through dark alleys with a $100 bill hanging from your pocket is no more smart than rubbing yourself in bacon grease and swimming in an alligator pond.
In addition, in these cases other people will have to deal with the consequences of the stupidity as these guns will get used somewhere soon.
If someone can afford tens of thousands of dollars worth of guns, and can't be bothered to buy a safe to store them in, then IMHO they are part of the problem.
As a line in a movie once stated "quit being part of the ****ing problem".
So we have decided to blame the victim for the actions of criminals?
Is a girl who wears a short skirt part of the problem when she gets raped?
Is a guy who gets mugged for his Presidential Rolex part of the problem?
Well said, why is it so hard to buy a nice safe or an alarm for your home? A lot of good it does to collect all those guns when you have them strung out in the house instead of locked in a safe.
Why is it so hard to require everyone to buy health care?
This is almost the "she was dressed wrong and thus encouraged her rapist to attack her" sentiment.
The real problem, for both you and the homeowner, is that we've simply become too tolerant of crime and criminals.
The rape victim will most likely not get me or my family shot during a drive by. I have a low tolerance for criminals; otherwise I would have found a different profession. I cannot describe in decent company how excited I get at the opportunity to lock up a parolee or similar individual.
For what it's worth, all my rich buddies don't associate with the homies whatsoever. They would not arm them in fear that they would take their riches.
I have poor friends, with limited, but nice collections too (they focus on quality and save their pennies).
If I am trying to preach, its for more responsible gun ownership. My wife spelled it out to me (rightly so) that I need to stop buying toys until I finished turning my home/castle into a hard target. I do not believe everyone in the US of A should be allowed to own/carry a firearm (i.e. convicted criminals, narcotics addicts, the stupid). A firearm is a tool that requires a measure of responsibility, just like driving a car down the street. When you violate that responsibility, they should suspend your license until you pull your head out from between your cheeks.
DocHolliday01
10-30-09, 01:07
Why is it so hard to require everyone to buy health care?
Are you saying it is difficult for someone who has $40k in guns to buy a $2k safe? And the two examples you used while may not directly contribute to the crime, If you draw attention to yourself you should be prepared enough to avoid things like that. Kind of one of those just because you don't have to doesn't mean you shouldn't things when it comes to having all those firearms and no safe. I just don't see where the logic is in owning a bunch of nice guns without having a safe place to put them.
I don't buy the rape victim asking for it analogy. It's more of a hard target vs. easy target kind of thing. A girl wearing next to nothing, drunk out of her mind, walking alone on a street at night should be left alone. However, the reality is that there are some bad people out there who will take advantage of what they perceive as an opportunity to get what they want. With that in mind, the girl needs to look out for herself and try to avoid a situation where she would be an easy target. The same could be said about a gun owner who isn't trying to secure his firearms in a meaningful way.
Leaving a lot of guns around the home, unlocked makes it easier for a criminal to get what he wants. Safes can be punched but it takes some time that a smash and grab robber often doesn't have. A person who can afford a bunch of guns can afford to get a safe. For many individuals, the problems are that safes aren't sexy purchases like guns, people are cheap, and collections often grow to exceed the storage capacity of safes (if the person already has one).
Years ago I heard this issue described as my next gun is going to be a safe.
Belmont31R
10-30-09, 03:53
The rape victim will most likely not get me or my family shot during a drive by. I have a low tolerance for criminals; otherwise I would have found a different profession. I cannot describe in decent company how excited I get at the opportunity to lock up a parolee or similar individual.
I have poor friends, with limited, but nice collections too (they focus on quality and save their pennies).
If I am trying to preach, its for more responsible gun ownership. My wife spelled it out to me (rightly so) that I need to stop buying toys until I finished turning my home/castle into a hard target. I do not believe everyone in the US of A should be allowed to own/carry a firearm (i.e. convicted criminals, narcotics addicts, the stupid). A firearm is a tool that requires a measure of responsibility, just like driving a car down the street. When you violate that responsibility, they should suspend your license until you pull your head out from between your cheeks.
Do you keep your car in a safe?
Do you keep your car in a safe?
I do not keep my car in a safe, but I do lock the doors, roll up the windows, have and an alarm. These are what I consider responsible measures to hold onto my property. I was using the analogy of responsible driving with the idea of responsible gun ownership.
agree with the poster above that the rape victim scenario is flawed. Some floozie getting raped has no impact on the safety of anyone else, other than it may embolden the perpetrator to do it again. Failing to lock up firearms has the potential to create far more victims and those victims will suffer far more than the burgled.
My house was broken into a couple of years ago. They made off with a shotgun (which was the one gun I kept out of the safe "just in case") and some other things. My take is that if they use the shotgun to shoot one of their fellows, I'd be happy to buy them a shotgun a week. However if I one day get a phone call that my gun was used to kill a cop or someone was shot with a stray round from a gang shooting, that will haunt me to the grave.
Something else that never dawned on me until it happened to me, is that I had now potentially armed my own murderer. The crooks entered and left through a back door in my bedroom, and I came home and entered in through the front door in the living room. I hadn't been home in quite a while and was tired from work and my situational awareness was down, and my pistol was in the car, and when I came in I had that "something is off" feeling. It got stronger as I got further into the house, but the truth is that if they had still been there they would have most likely shot me with my own gun while I stood there with my head up my ass.
I don't like getting into a bunch of what if's.....the op's story is kinda weird but I guess I can't expect everyone to be as spooked as I am about having my guns stolen.
I always try to get all my hunting provisions before I head to the ranch but sometimes you gotta make a quicky stop w/ all the gear loaded. I make a huge effort to park in a good spot and check all the doors. :rolleyes: The thought of replacing all that crap (some which has sentimental value) or worse, like rob pointed out in having a gun used is a crime would eat me up.
To have a vehicle with that sort of exposure sitting unsecured seems irrational to me, but it sounds like the right call was made. Would it have been ok to contact said owner and helped make sure property was better locked down??
rifleman2000
10-30-09, 07:37
You do understand that you are in a sense blaming a potential victim for the action of criminals because they didn't make things hard enough for the criminal. This is almost the "she was dressed wrong and thus encouraged her rapist to attack her" sentiment.
There was a time when gun collections were proudly displayed on walls, in racks or at the very least behind glass doors of a fine cabinet. And it was understood that if a criminal entered a mans home it was the fault of the criminal and only the criminal.
In the Brady states they make gun owners out to be criminals who conspire to arm gang bangers if their state approved firearms are in anything less than a bank vault.
Now I fully understand the day and age we live in, and that is why my collection isn't proudly displayed on my wall as it should be. But it is a sad day when we decide to blame the law abiding citizen because he didn't make himself hard enough to victimize.
The real problem, for both you and the homeowner, is that we've simply become too tolerant of crime and criminals.
I agree with this sentiment. This is a free society.
threebanger
10-30-09, 08:58
Do you keep your car in a safe?
it's called a garage......but I fail to see the logic in your response.
rubberneck
10-30-09, 09:11
I agree with this sentiment. This is a free society.
Since when did free become synonmous with a lack of responsibility. I am sorry but I believe that as a gun owner we are responsible for the safe storage of our firearms. I never leave the house without first accounting for and securing all of my guns. When I get home one or two comes out but they are never just left laying about. Maybe it is a regional thing as living in a populated area makes theft is a real concern. As Rob said, I am not so sure I can live with the idea that because I was careless with the security of my guns someone died. Not to mention I don't want to be that asshole who's carelessness becomes the Brady Bunch's next anti-gun campaign.
rifleman2000
10-30-09, 09:14
It is a slippery slope.
On one hand, liberals would sue gun manufacturers for crimes committed by guns that they made.
Somewhat closer, criminalizing gun owners that do not secure their weapons to some "standard". Such as a safe, vault, etc. 10,000 dollars worth of guns, 2,000 dollars safe is not that easy to achieve, sometimes people accumulate guns slowly and cannot just spring for that safe. Because they could get a really good gun for that price anyway.
There is criminalizing gun owners that have weapons stolen and used in a crime, or in the case of one city in Canada, confiscate them before they can be stolen.
Either way it is the same stripe. Unless a gun owner is leaving his firearms on the front porch with "Free Guns" signs attached, they should not be blamed or criminalized for the dastardly act of storing firearms in their own home.
Sure, it is smart to lock them up. But maybe we should focus more on the criminals. Pass laws that actually put them in jail for a long time. Make it easier for honest citizens to get guns and then make it even easier to shoot people that break into your house. Stand your ground laws, castle doctrine, all that good stuff.
Instead we have a police officer "smelling" criminal intent because a guy has guns openly stored in his house. Shame on our country.
rifleman2000
10-30-09, 09:21
Since when did free become synonmous with a lack of responsibility. I am sorry but I believe that as a gun owner we are responsible for the safe storage of our firearms. I never leave the house without first accounting for and securing all of my guns. When I get home one or two comes out but they are never just left laying about. Maybe it is a regional thing as living in a populated area makes theft is a real concern. As Rob said, I am not so sure I can live with the idea that because I was careless with the security of my guns someone died. Not to mention I don't want to be that asshole who's carelessness becomes the Brady Bunch's next anti-gun campaign.
You can't legislate "responsibility". Who are you to judge anyway? That question is for everyone. Wait until gun safes aren't enough, and "responsible" is like the UK and we have to store our firearms at a gun club to be "responsible".
I have the right to leave my guns all over my house. In fact, when I returned from over seas my State Police roommate had done just that so it took an hour to locate on of my pistols. I was pissed, because I secure my weapons. So thank you.
But I don't give a damn what you believe about how I store my firearms in my house, and if someone breaks in and steals my guns to commit a crime, they are the criminal and not me. Regardless of how "responsible" I am.
Pretty anti-freedom sentiments here... "I am from the ATF here to inspect your gun storage."
ETA: Hell, look at the title of this anti-freedom thread "Too many guns?" Whatever.
I'm with rifleman2000 on this.
kaiservontexas
10-30-09, 10:22
Too many, looked them over to make sure they were legal, guns in a house! :rolleyes:
The man has a point. Eddie Eagle was right--secure them responsibly as a matter of simple ethics, if nothing else.
Some years ago I cleaned up a retired small town cop's Model 10 for him, by way of returning a favor. The moron then proceeded to take a trip to CA and left his pickup parked and unlocked. The gun was stolen--duh--and God knows where it wound up. The owner was mildly irritated but beyond that really didn't care. :confused:
If you can afford the gun you can afford to secure it.
PRGGodfather
10-30-09, 10:49
Yup, the title is a stupid question.
Shamdawg, I know what you were alluding to, and simply, if you have concerns, come talk to me about them -- instead of seeking psychological closure on an open Internet gun forum. Have you considered the subject in question might even be a member here? What does OPSEC mean to you?
There is also a LEO forum if you feel the need to express your rant in this fashion -- and if you are truly troubled by it, I can refer you to EAP.
It is absolutely ludicrous to ask such a loaded question in this venue and expect not to generate a controversy.
The facts of this matter were self-redacted and I will not provide more information while this case is open.
Simply, I hope we can agree you have the right to have as many guns as you want and leave them all over the house, within reason. I hope we also can agree the irresponsible exercising of rights results in further degradation of said rights.
Further, if a child accesses them because you left them unsecured and hurts someone, we will prosecute you for it.
Also, if anyone is naive enough to think that's what this is incident is all about -- well, I have nothing else to add.
This is NOT about multiple guns. I have enough Glocks and AR15's to arm every member of my family -- and some of the neighbors. Shamdawg knows this, as I have worked on his personal AR.
So, without giving specifics, let's just understand this:
If the police respond to your house for any reason and find -- say, 65 Jennings .25 autos all legally registered to you -- you can certainly keep them -- even after I run every serial number and later check BATFE's e-Trace to be sure these "collector pieces" aren't "overflowing" into the illegal gun trade.
I'm not suggesting you don't have the right to collect them -- heck, I don't care if you collect fossilized dinosaur turds.
I am saying we, as the police, have an absolute obligation to make sure you're not dealing illegally. If it turns out you're an FFL, or you really collect such pieces of crap because you have the opinion they are the pinnacle of firearms engineering -- have at it. In any case, police attention has been called, and we have the obligation to ask questions to verify it's all good.
Once verified -- no harm, no foul. But unless we're personal friends and I know for certain you're not an a-hole -- even though I am as strident a PRO2A cop you will ever find -- I'm still going to be curious about you and check you out because of the obvious public safety impact.
If it's legal, we're out of there -- since as the OP mentioned, he wasn't all that excited about having to book all of the pieces, even for safekeeping.
And starting a thread about this incident on the Internet is lame at best. I suspect the OP will voluntarily come see me when he gets back to work to explain what he was expecting to accomplish with this thread -- other than soliciting the unrestrained opinions of persons he doesn't even know...
John_Wayne777
10-30-09, 11:00
Alrighty then....on that note, I'm pressing the lock button.
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