France: I hope we don't end up like this.

[mkmckinley]

London Times
October 30, 2009

Afghan Lawsuit Adds Pressure For Sarkozy To Agree Troop Withdrawal

By Adam Sage, in Paris

Relatives of French soldiers killed in an ambush by insurgents in Afghanistan are to file a criminal lawsuit alleging that officers placed their troops’ lives at risk through a series of blunders.

The lawsuit is likely to add to President Sarkozy’s difficulties as he seeks to defend the French military presence in Afghanistan in the face of increasing public scepticism.

Mr Sarkozy has worked hard to improve relations with Nato, whose military arm France boycotted for several decades. But with 36 French soldiers killed in the conflict since 2001, 64 per cent of French voters believe that France should withdraw from Nato’s Afghanistan force. The percentage in favour has fallen by nine points in a year, the survey found.

In an interview this month, Mr Sarkozy ruled out withdrawal, saying that Pakistan — “a nuclear power” — could fall into Taleban hands “if we leave”.

But he insisted that France, which has 3,700 soldiers involved in the conflict and 3,000 in Afghanistan, would ”not send a single more soldier”. His refusal was a blow for the Obama Administration, which has been pressing European states to send more troops.

Mr Sarkozy, who sent an extra 700 soldiers after coming to power in 2007, knows he would face public wrath at home if he conceded to Washington’s request for a further increase.

French misgivings about the Afghan intervention were fuelled further last month when four soldiers died in a storm; three drowned and one struck by lightning.

Martine Aubry, the leader of the opposition French Socialist Party, has called on France to “get out of the quagmire”, although the Left is split over the issue of complete withdrawal from Afghanistan.

[chadbag]

Ostrich, meet sand

[loupav]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u/R/french_soldierofsurrender.jpg

[whiterabbit05]

French misgivings about the Afghan intervention were fuelled further last month when four soldiers died in a storm; three drowned and one struck by lightning.


:confused: WTF :confused:

[perna]

three drowned

First 3 people to ever drown in a desert.

[Gutshot John]

I think you guys misunderstand that France has its own interests that don't necessarily coincide with yours.

I will say however that their political leadership is a whole bunch more committed to NATO, Afghanistan and a nuke-free Iran than ours is.

Why do you expect French citizens to commit their sons and daughters to a war to which Americans and the American President are increasingly ambivalent?

It's easy to knock the French but sometimes it's just kind of dumb.

[mkmckinley]

Point taken. However I would argue that all western countries have a vested interest in stabilizing Afghanistan.

[Gutshot John]

Point taken. However I would argue that all western countries have a vested interest in stabilizing Afghanistan.

I agree to a point.

The US in particular and the West as a whole needs to make a decision whether it wants to win or not. If we really don't want to win, then lets get the hell out of there.

If the US can't find a reason to stay in Afghanistan then I don't blame the French one bit for wanting out.

[Submariner]

Point taken. However I would argue that all western countries have a vested interest in stabilizing Afghanistan.

1. Increased opium production which finds its way into Russia and China as heroin to destabilize them.
2. Money from opium sales laundered through Western banks helping to keep said banks from insolvency.
3. Pipelinestan offers a route from the gas fields across Astan, Pak and India to Bombay which reduces Rooskie influence.

Yup. The military/industrial/banking complex has a winner in stabilizing Afghanistan.

[chadbag]

First 3 people to ever drown in a desert.

Uhh, Afghanistan is not a desert (in the sense you are thinking). I have never been there but seen many pics as well as read Luttrells book and our local Army NG Apache unit in which I have some friends was there and I saw lots of video taken from their choppers and on the ground.

[chadbag]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u/R/french_soldierofsurrender.jpg

This is funny.

However, I think it does a disservice to the French Military. I think that all the "it ain't a world war yet until the French surrender" sentiment is more due to the French military leadership than however you say Grunt in French.

The FFL was one of the first units on the ground in Desert Shield (US 82nd and some 101st preceded them) protecting our guys asses while they set up camp and flew and sailed their gear to Saudi. The bulk of US forces arrived after the FFL.

[NoBody]

The FFL was the first unit on the ground in Desert Shield protecting our guys asses while they set up camp and flew and sailed their gear to Saudi.

Really? I remember seeing Saudi F-15s flying CAP for us, but don't recalling seeing the French. Can you provide some specifics? Were they actually providing security for the 82nd???

[chadbag]

Really? I remember seeing Saudi F-15s flying CAP for us, but don't recalling seeing the French. Can you provide some specifics? Were they actually providing security for the 82nd???

I will see what I can dig up on links but yes, they were on the ground patrolling the Kuwaiti border before the bulk of US forces arrived. 82nd and then 101st US light forces were there before the FFL. Bulk of US forces (armored units and mainline forces) came later.

They had FFL light units. I remember seeing on CNN at the very start FFL light vehicles (land rover type stuff etc) patrolling through the sand and the comment that these were the first "allied" troops on the front line to stop a feared Iraqi invasion into Saudi while the Americans airlifted their units in and brought in the heavy equipment by sea.

US air units were also in pretty quick if I remember correctly and some light infantry types, 82nd or 101st or something were also airlifted in to get boots on the ground as quick as reasonably possible.

I will see what I can dig up

Chad

[Gutshot John]

The Foreign Legion is a light footprint force. I think the entire legion is less than one American division. Of the rapid-deployment first on the ground in SA it's likely that it was only one or two regiments.

It's entirely possible that they operated within an AO and people farther away didn't know they were there.

Having known a few Legionaires, they are hard men (and many of them are actually native French) that for pure soldiering skill and fieldcraft put most technologically-reliant American units to shame. They also make US Marines look well-adjusted.

In Sarajevo they used to act as human shields to help civilians cross the street. More than a few were killed by mines and sniper fire.

[chadbag]

I will see what I can dig up on links but yes, they were on the ground patrolling the Kuwaiti border within days as the first US air assets were coming into play and other stuff was starting to be air lifted and marshaled.



Ok, I was a little off in the timeline. The FFL showed up in the second half of Sept. '90 and other French at the end of Sept. '90

The US had ground forces of elements of the 82nd (first boots on the ground) and if I read the timeline correctly the 101st on the ground prior.

The FFL was still one of the first units on the front line providing a shield so the bulk of US and allied forces could set up shop and get ready. Main US units started to arrive in Oct (armor etc). US forces prior were lighter more easily activated and put in action as well as air and sea forces.

This is the most detailed timeline I found. Hard to read though

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Day-0.htm

[perna]

Uhh, Afghanistan is not a desert (in the sense you are thinking). I have never been there but seen many pics as well as read Luttrells book and our local Army NG Apache unit in which I have some friends was there and I saw lots of video taken from their choppers and on the ground.

It was a joke, lighten up francis, Im sure someone else has drowned in a desert before them.:)

[NoBody]

I will see what I can dig up on links but yes, they were on the ground patrolling the Kuwaiti border before the bulk of US forces arrived. 82nd and then 101st US light forces were there before the FFL. Bulk of US forces (armored units and mainline forces) came later.

They had FFL light units. I remember seeing on CNN at the very start FFL light vehicles (land rover type stuff etc) patrolling through the sand and the comment that these were the first "allied" troops on the front line to stop a feared Iraqi invasion into Saudi while the Americans airlifted their units in and brought in the heavy equipment by sea.

US air units were also in pretty quick if I remember correctly and some light infantry types, 82nd or 101st or something were also airlifted in to get boots on the ground as quick as reasonably possible.

I will see what I can dig up

Chad

Thanks, Chad. I arrived to Saudi on 7 Aug 90. As I recall, we had half a dozen AWACS , some KC-135s, a squadron of US F-15s, and a battalion from the 82nd. I'm sure there were other US units in place with us, but that's all I recall. I don't remember seeing the French showing until later. The Saudi military provided our initial force protection, but we were armed as well (just a bit disoriented from the 17+ hour flight). ;)

Be safe,
NB