Bike lube and de-greaser?

[Winter Tyrant]

Hey Guys,

I have what can be classified as an OT or strange question. I currently have a Ruger 10/22, AI&P shotgun and a Daniel Defense DDXV in my stable. I also got into shooting quite recently and had used Hoppes gun cleaning kits for my guns. They are a pain in the @$$. I want to get some Breakfree products. I was cleaning my .22 last night at my toolbox and noticed some citrus degreaser by a company called Pedros on my bench and wondered if it would work for my gun? It would be perfect if it did because I currently work at a bike parts wholesaler and can get loads of lube and degreaser for super cheap. We have many different kinds of degreaser and lubes, I thought that some of the lubes we have here might be ok to use in my guns. We have some dry lubes designed not to pick up dirt and dust, they are teflon based lubricants.

I ask this because I know of a couple buddies in the armed services and members of this site and ARFCOM that have used motor oil to an extent to keep their rifles running smooth.

Thanks,
Floyd

[whiterabbit05]

I don't see anything wrong with using the citrus degreaser.

I was contemplating using my bike degreaser for cleaning too, its made by Finish Line, extracted from soy beans, and is safe for all surfaces. It also also labeled as "Multi Degreaser."

The lubes will probably be fine too but would not be ideal, I don't think bike lubes were designed to take high temperatures.

[KYPD]

I think you are on to something. I am a lube freak, and try everything that comes onto the market, but I keep coming back to bike lubes. For 30+years I have used bike lubes on my firearms. In my opinion, they are superior to Hoppe's or other gun-specific products for lubrication. I'm not sure about cleaning, and I have not tried Pedro's degreaser, but now that you mention it, I will.

Why bike lubes? During its lifetime, a civilian rifle or pistol might get used in a dirty, gritty, snowy, salty, wet environment a few times, but a bicycle absolutely will, for long periods of time, under heavy load conditions, and with nearly all of its most sensitive lubricated parts exposed, so the demands on bike lubes are very high. Moreover, all those contaminated parts have to be moved by human legs, connected to a human brain, and a human wallet, that can measure the effectiveness of the lubricants used. And bikes aren't at all easy to clean and lube. Bike people are very serious about their lubricants. Gun people are serious too, but in the case of guns, it is harder to tell the difference, and hype often wins out.


Try Pedro's Syn Grease on your bolt lugs, and cam pin surfaces. Very stable stuff. Phil Wood's Tenacious Oil is ideal for lubing the bolt/bolt carrier/upper receiver bolt bearing surfaces. It stays put instead of running off.

Some guys love Breakfree, but it never impressed me. I would avoid using teflon-based products anywhere in a gun that hot gases touch, such as the barrel, bolt, or inside the bolt carrier. The heat can cause the Teflon to give off very toxic gases. Dupont's Teflon has had lots of problems over the years.

Since you can get bike stuff cheap, try everything and tell us how it performs.

Cheers.

[PRGGodfather]

Second to what KYPD says. I don't know if bike chain lube will handle the heat for heavy use, but I would imagine for all-weather carrying, it should work very well. Breakfree is too light and evaporates too quickly. We have been using Slip2000 grease for our motor officers, since their sidearms are exposed all day to the elements, particularly the wind.

One of my rangemasters is also a bicycle patrol instructor -- so based on how well this lubricant/grease performs on the bicycle, he thinks it should be at least acceptable for the complement of bullets he carries on his person. Based on our limited experience, it seems like something fairly viable.

I have more confidence for its use as a pistol lubricant than a hard use rifle -- but since most rifles sit in racks, and officers only have 140 maximum for the rifle, it could truly fill this niche.

We will try it out with the AR and give an update in a few weeks.

[Bimmer]

I don't see anything wrong with using the citrus degreaser.


I do. When I clean guns I'm not trying to get the oil and grease off, I'm trying to get the carbon off (and copper fouling, in the barrel). I use "solvents" that break down copper and other fouling for a reason... I'm not sure that a citrus degreaser is going to dissolve copper fouling, etc.

Otherwise, I use Mobil 1 to lube most of my guns...

Bimmer

[Winter Tyrant]

I think you are on to something. I am a lube freak, and try everything that comes onto the market, but I keep coming back to bike lubes. For 30+years I have used bike lubes on my firearms. In my opinion, they are superior to Hoppe's or other gun-specific products for lubrication. I'm not sure about cleaning, and I have not tried Pedro's degreaser, but now that you mention it, I will.

Why bike lubes? During its lifetime, a civilian rifle or pistol might get used in a dirty, gritty, snowy, salty, wet environment a few times, but a bicycle absolutely will, for long periods of time, under heavy load conditions, and with nearly all of its most sensitive lubricated parts exposed, so the demands on bike lubes are very high. Moreover, all those contaminated parts have to be moved by human legs, connected to a human brain, and a human wallet, that can measure the effectiveness of the lubricants used. And bikes aren't at all easy to clean and lube. Bike people are very serious about their lubricants. Gun people are serious too, but in the case of guns, it is harder to tell the difference, and hype often wins out.


Try Pedro's Syn Grease on your bolt lugs, and cam pin surfaces. Very stable stuff. Phil Wood's Tenacious Oil is ideal for lubing the bolt/bolt carrier/upper receiver bolt bearing surfaces. It stays put instead of running off.

Some guys love Breakfree, but it never impressed me. I would avoid using teflon-based products anywhere in a gun that hot gases touch, such as the barrel, bolt, or inside the bolt carrier. The heat can cause the Teflon to give off very toxic gases. Dupont's Teflon has had lots of problems over the years.

Since you can get bike stuff cheap, try everything and tell us how it performs.

Cheers.

Wow, I thought I would have been ridiculed for posting this. I actually work at BTI and can get gallons of degreaser for super cheap. I have access to the most popular lubes in the industry, I will try different lubes and degreasers on my guns, it will probably be mainly on my 10/22 and 12 Ga. Because I can send the most amount of rounds through those because of the cost of ammo for them. I will also try my AR. KYPD, I will try some Tenacious oil on my bolt as well, its great stuff because it fills the viscosity void from a light lube to heavy grease.

Thanks,
Floyd

[bill_d]

hey guys,
dont use the citrus degreaser on your weapons.

[Winter Tyrant]

hey guys,
dont use the citrus degreaser on your weapons.

Care to elaborate?

Floyd

[travistheone]

BTI, very cool. I have used bicycle products on my knives and guns for awhile now, and gun scrubber on my bikes. I work seasonally at a bike shop/class III dealer, and the products in the shop frequently serve two purposes. I am leery of the high zoot citrus degreasers, they can eat up alot of synthetics pretty quick.

[Roklok]

You have a lot of money invested in your guns. Get the proper cleaning and lube that is designed for firearms. Don't try and save a few bucks just because you have a lot of something else. Penny wise and pound foolish.

[Winter Tyrant]

I can see where you are coming from Roklok but condoms were not made for our rifles and that doesn't stop infantrymen from covering their weapons whilst in the middle of a sandstorm in Iraq, bullets were meant to be fired but people still use the tips of them to disassemble their weapons and toothbrushes were not meant to clean the carbon off the internals of our AR's but that does not mean I am going to stop using one. At the end of the day lube is lube, it does not matter if it is KY or CLP if it works for your gun then use it because any lube is better than none.

Floyd

[ST911]

For those finding gun-specific products coming up short... Can you elaborate on why? What are they failing to do? Where they're leaving you hanging? What systems you're running them in? Types of activities? Quantify your observations? That BreakFree and Hoppes disappoint is not surprising. Have you tried premium lubes and cleaners from folks like Slip, esp the EWL?

Testing a lube on a 12ga pump is an option, but isn't terribly useful. Pumps can run dry, and run reasonably well that way.

Some will read recommendations for other products and think it's a good idea to try that. Let's give them a bit more info to work with.

[KYPD]

For those finding gun-specific products coming up short... Can you elaborate on why? What are they failing to do? Where they're leaving you hanging? What systems you're running them in? Types of activities? Quantify your observations? That BreakFree and Hoppes disappoint is not surprising. Have you tried premium lubes and cleaners from folks like Slip, esp the EWL?

Some will read recommendations for other products and think it's a good idea to try that. Let's give them a bit more info to work with.

I think it is clear from everyone's posts that none of us have made engineering studies of the lubrication products discussed here. It is all just opinion. With extremely few exceptions, everything written on this forum is opinion, despite the bluster. And that is not limited to just this forum: Hard, substantive engineering data untainted by opinion or the goal of financial gain is as rare as hen's teeth; as unlikely as a politician that can't lie. So I will share my opinion, based on my experiences, but those that love Slip or whatever superlube of the month need to calm down, and test stuff for themselves, and develop their own opinion based on their own experience before piling on.

Very few lubes still in use today were developed originally for guns. I can't think of one (no, Hoppe's No.9 is not a lube) but they might exist. Relatively speaking, the market for gun lubes is just too small to support the necessary R&D, not when the automotive, aerospace, marine, heavy equipment, mining, manufacturing, medical equipment, and many other well-financed and infinitely more profitable industries are able and willing to pour money and brainpower into developing the lubes they need specific to their industries, and when many of the lubes they develop work just fine in guns. The fact is, guns don't place heavy demands on lubes, not compared to a bulldozer or an airframe, or a compressor. The real problem with gun lubrication is people not using it. So clever people repackage and market these excellent lubes to the gun industry. Nothing wrong with that. But why wait?

While not a lube, one example is Slip Carbon Killer. Take a wiff. It's citrus-base cleaner, something that has been around long before they used it on guns. The first time I used citrus cleaner was to clean stained concrete slabs. Another. MPro-7 is identical to a cleaner that has been around forever and was developed originally for cleaning india (carbon) ink off of pen nibs. They both work fine, but guns were not the original intended market (I can hear the guys at Slip screaming already). Take a look at FP-10. Do you think all the synthetic gun lubes on the market were developed specifically for your Remington/Winchester/Colt? Not a chance.

The interesting thing about bike lubes is that they are bought by individuals, many professional athletes, and tested by their own leg muscles over many many miles. And the use of a specific bike lube is not mandated by some mil-spec, or industry standard, so new lubes come out quickly, and the mediocre ones die just as quickly. That means that ones that have been around a while are not only capable of beating new fads, they work very well.

Beyond simple lubrication, there are other factors about lubricants that deserve consideration. Have you ever cleaned and lubed a gun, put it away for a year or so, and come back to find it rusted, that the lube has disappeared, or that the lube has changed into a cruddy mess? When that happens, your lube becomes an enemy. All liquids, including gun lubes, evaporate over time. Some quicker than others. When that happens, your rust protection and lubrication are gone. Petroleum products oxidize over time. Some get hard. Some get foul. Some even become corrosive. Especially when they become contaminated. Eventually, they all stop lubricating. They all stop protecting against rust. The better lubes resist evaporation and oxidation longer. This is not an problem for the operator that shoots, and cleans, his rifle every week. But it is an issue for those of us that rely on a gun to wait patiently, and always be ready.

The earlier comment about high temperatures is valid. I know of no surface applied lube or grease that can stand up for long to a direct blast of high temperature gas at 40,000 psi (or whatever it is by the time it gets into the BCG). Please tell me if you know of one. I use synthetic motor oil inside the BCG. It seems to hold up better than most, but that's just my opinion. I like to use a grease on the bolt lugs, however, something that is going to persevere longer than motor oil. Does Pedro's Syn grease melt after a while? Of course. So has almost every other lubricant I have tried. But it's still there working anyway, and I don't want to gum things up with a high temp distributor grease either. And Pedro's does not get hard, gummy, oxidize, or change over time. Very stable. Very enduring. Phil Wood's tenacious oil is not a high-temp product, so I don't use it inside the BCG, just the outside. I know it will still be there when I need it, without oxidizing, evaporating, going bad, or running off, even if my gun has been standing in a safe for a couple of years. And the viscosity is perfect, IMO. But this is just my opinion.

I don't see the point to denegrating other lubes (except Breakfree and WD-40, and the idea of using Vagisil on my gun gives me the creeps), as Skintop seems to want, because, so long as they are applied, they will all do the job. Some stay put better, and some continue to work longer, that's all. Its been said before, but tis worth repeating: choose a lube and use it, often. If you like experimenting with different products, bike lubes are worth giving a try. If you are happy with Slip EWL or even Breakfree, well then, as the ancient saying goes: "may you live forever."

[M4arc]

Being a bike guy I literally have bottles of chain lube and grease all over the garage but I've never used it on my ARs. I've used Breakfree on my chain a couple of times because I didn't pay attention to what I was grabbing off the shelf but that's about it.

The only thing I'd like to point out is most bicycle chain lube is not designed for high temps so its possible it will disappear or smoke off rather quickly. Just a thought.

[whiterabbit05]

I do. When I clean guns I'm not trying to get the oil and grease off, I'm trying to get the carbon off (and copper fouling, in the barrel). I use "solvents" that break down copper and other fouling for a reason... I'm not sure that a citrus degreaser is going to dissolve copper fouling, etc.

Otherwise, I use Mobil 1 to lube most of my guns...

Bimmer

So I guess you wouldn't use Slip 725 either since it is just another degreaser...

All degreasers do the same thing, if it is safe for all surfaces, who's to say you can't use it to degrease guns? Many people use automotive brakes parts cleaners in fact since it gets the job done so well.

If you want to remove fouling, then of course a degreaser will not get the job done. That is why there are other solvents and bore cleaners made to remove copper and lead.

[four]

I'm a bike kind of guy, so I'll throw in my two cents.

For Lube, I'd have to say the dry lube might be alright, but it's going to burn off pretty quick. it's only good for a couple hundred miles on a nice weekend. I can't imagine how quick it's going to come off a hot action.

The wet lube attracts crap all over the place. even on a clean chain it gets dirty quick. for me any way.

The thing about the citrus cleaner. I have one good reason to not use it.
It's Acidic. especially if you end up putting it someplace that it doesn't come out of, you could end up etching the surface.

Dont' get me wrong I use it on my bike and I love it. but when I use it, I have my bike on a stand and I hose all that crap out so it doesn't etch my gears and bearings.

[ST911]

I don't see the point to denegrating other lubes (except Breakfree and WD-40, and the idea of using Vagisil on my gun gives me the creeps), as Skintop seems to want,

I don't want to denegrate other lubes. I want to learn more about the experiences of people using them (in this case, the bike lubes) and the context of their use so I can more fully contemplate the info.

You wrote seven paragraphs, but didn't address the questions:


For those finding gun-specific products coming up short... Can you elaborate on why? What are they failing to do? Where they're leaving you hanging? What systems you're running them in? Types of activities? Quantify your observations? That BreakFree and Hoppes disappoint is not surprising. Have you tried premium lubes and cleaners from folks like Slip, esp the EWL?

Let me rephrase:

What guns are you shooting? How many rounds in a session? Type of shooting in the session? How frequent are those sessions? What's your cleaning and/or relubing interval? If you are using the bike products, how does the performance of them in those activities differ from conventional gun lubes?

I've got a great bike shop in town. If I stop by and pick up one of the premium lubes, stick in an MP5SD, and run the gun until it stops, should I expect that it will run longer, about the same, or less than a BreakFree, WS-CLP, or Slip?

When I take that lube to a 1k round, 8hr M16 select-fire class, same questions?

When I use that same lube on a trunk-dwelling agency carbine and come back in a month, should I expect to see more evap, about the same, or less evap than with a conventional lube like above?

If it's "superior" as you say, awesome. I'll use it. More info is needed, though.

[bill_d]

to elaborate a bit i will say an extensive study was done by USMC.
statistically significant increases in bolt longevity were reported
in the populations of weapons that were liberally greased and lubricated
both in the initial mating period of the new(colt or fn) weapon assemblies,
and during the extended firing cycles of the testing.

in the instances of bolt lug failure, there was significant evidence that the
cracks often originated at pits caused by corrosion.

etching:
as four mentioned, the term etching perfectly describes the invisible damage done by chemicals like the citrus degreaser(for instance).

i believe the slip 725 is designed to be non- etching (although i have no proof)
that does not mean that the process due to other agents(like rain or sweat) will not proceed after its use.

that is why i dont strip my weapons to bare metal routinely or on a whim. it is not necessary. test results indicate increased service life in systems liberally lubricated throughout their cycles of use.

the thought of using bike products for some reason or other on your weapons is hare-brained. hey, it might work, but dont you have a bike to use them on?

what you should be concerned about is using a good non-aerosolizing oil/grease combination that does not combust and is stable in high temperatures.

if that lube combination gets dirty, then change it without stripping to bare metal or in the worst case, etching the surface of the metal.

if you need to displace water or dirt in some small spaces you can use an aerosol
type (like for instance G-96 ) that is a lube instead of an extreme solvent.

don't etch your weapons...

[KYPD]

the thought of using bike products for some reason or other on your weapons is hare-brained. hey, it might work, but dont you have a bike to use them on?

See what I mean? If the USMC or some other gubmint agency doesn't say its alright, then many, too many, blithely denegrate other's opinions and experience out of hand. Sad.

[bill_d]

hey, kypd,
dont get your feelers hurt,
nobody is denegrating anyone.
your post was understandable,
the fact is, the referenced study is
probably a sturdy root for your personal
research.

you are not considering etching your weapons, are you?

[KYPD]

hey, kypd,
dont get your feelers hurt,
nobody is denegrating anyone.
your post was understandable,
the fact is, the referenced study is
probably a sturdy root for your personal
research.

you are not considering etching your weapons, are you?
Were you raised in a barn? "Hare-brained" isn't exactly a compliment.

I would like to see the study you referenced. Can you provide a link? Always happy to learn.

The conclusion in the report you mentioned about lubed guns exhibiting increased bolt longevity makes perfect sense. Hardly seems worthy of spending tax dollars to research.


what you should be concerned about is using a good non-aerosolizing oil/grease combination that does not combust and is stable in high temperatures.

That is exactly what I was saying. The problem is that there are few useful surface applied "non-aerosolizing" lubes that do not oxidize, do not react with powder residue, can withstand extreme high pressure, and are stable at high temperatures. A very big order. When you find one, let us know. And while you are at it, define the meaning of "high temperature." In the meantime, we will just have to get along with good enough.

I have no interest in etching my weapons. But so far, I have not heard anything that suggests that citrus cleaners intended specifically for bike use will etch anodized aluminum, chrome plating, stainless steel, or carburized carbon steel. Those are the materials in an Ar15.

Bike parts are bare aluminum, carbon steel, stainless steel, chrome plating, paint, and sometimes, carbon fiber-reinforced plastic. Almost identical to AR15 materials, and without anodized coatings, the aluminum is even more likely to etch/corrode. It seems unlikely that manufacturers of bike cleaners would risk the liability of corroding (etching = corroding) their customer's bikes, but I suppose it could happen.

Worse things happen with gun products. For instance, Shooter's Choice solvent (actually GM Brake Cleaner repackaged for firearm use) when unintentionally mixed in a stainless steel gun barrel with Sweets 7.62 solvent will etch and pit the barrel. So your point is worthy of experimentation. I will followup with some results later.

I agree with your point about it not being necessary to "degrease" a rifle. That was not my intention anyway. A little copper and carbon left in the pores of a barrel's internal surfaces make it more accurate, in my experience. Most civilian guns don't typically get as dirty as a bike chain, so I don't see the need for degreasers. But I am interested to see if it cuts caked on fouling on a bolt tail as well as Slip carbon killer.

[bill_d]

kypd,
in particular,
...surface applied "non-aerosolizing" lubes that do not oxidize, do not react with powder residue, can withstand extreme high pressure, and are stable at high temperatures. ...
those requirements are met by several types out there.
1. mad dog's grease, i think it is called XF7 or something . from what i understand it is not a completely synthetic compound, but contains no teflon.
you get a little where you want it and it stays there.
2. slip EWL is a thinner lube, works well with some heavier greases, has those properties. this is good to have even in the gas key area.
3.superlube synthetic with teflon, a heavier grease. has a salt water rating that some end users find useful.
4.weaponshield lithium complex grease synthetic
5.weaponshield liquid lube synthetic
6.TW25B (with teflon) synthetic grease meets all the requirememts and is thinned with 91percent isopropyl alcohol if you need to squirt it somewhere , sort of like
degreasing and regreasing simultaneously. (this works)


anyway, there are a few,

and now, yes, you have heard , it just didn't sink in yet,

don't use the citrus cleaners on your weapons.

[KYPD]

kypd,
in particular,
...surface applied "non-aerosolizing" lubes that do not oxidize, do not react with powder residue, can withstand extreme high pressure, and are stable at high temperatures. ...
those requirements are met by several types out there.
1. mad dog's grease, i think it is called XF7 or something . from what i understand it is not a completely synthetic compound, but contains no teflon.
you get a little where you want it and it stays there.
2. slip EWL is a thinner lube, works well with some heavier greases, has those properties. this is good to have even in the gas key area.
3.superlube synthetic with teflon, a heavier grease. has a salt water rating that some end users find useful.
4.weaponshield lithium complex grease synthetic
5.weaponshield liquid lube synthetic
6.TW25B (with teflon) synthetic grease meets all the requirememts and is thinned with 91percent isopropyl alcohol if you need to squirt it somewhere , sort of like
degreasing and regreasing simultaneously. (this works)


anyway, there are a few,

and now, yes, you have heard , it just didn't sink in yet,

don't use the citrus cleaners on your weapons.

I own and have tried most of the lubes you listed. I will need to try Mad Dog. In my experience, Pedros and Phill's performed better over time. That's why I use them. But I will get some Mad Dogs and "Superlube Synthetic" (who makes it) and give thme a try. But I won't use products that contain teflon in my barrel or gas system.

I am impressed that you say don't use citrus cleaners, but there are many on the market. Which one's etched your weapons? Are you condemning all of them? If so, why?

[DBR]

Probably, a good degreaser choice would be the aircraft certified formulation of Simple Green. I had a talk with their chemist a few years ago when I was trying to determine if the commercial formulation was safe for firearms including aluminum frames.

At the time she told me they were reformulating to meet FAA requirements for certification for aluminum airframes and to avoid any citrus or similar formulation that was not specifically formulated to be safe for aluminum. The FAA certification is one way to be sure.

She said that their then commercial product could remove anodizing from some aluminum alloys and might cause corrosion if left trapped in small spaces like crevices or pin holes.

I just use Walmart brake cleaner with plenty of ventilation. Another good choice if you want to soak parts is "odorless paint thinner" otherwise known as Stoddard Solvent. It is one of the solvents specified in the military AR manuals for cleaning especially when changing lubricants. As far as I know it won't hurt any common gun materials with normal cleaning exposure time. It doesn't evaporate very fast but it is flammable and should not be used in the house.