View Full Version : barrel selections?!
im building an m-4 based on a large pin colt lower. ive purchased a daniel defense flattop upper designed for the large hole colts..now i have to decide what barrel assembly to buy and what twist...ill shoot primarily 55 gr rounds. price isnt really an issue...ive looked at bushmasters and stags....any input??:confused:
Check out Bravo Company USA
seen that.. i see lots of dif barrels jus need some input
What length are looking at getting? Gas system? Profile?
When you say building and M4, I assume you want to build one that looks exactly like the military weapon? A good weapon but if your minds not set on that config, you can have something better...
BCM has several to choose from and they are top notch so I doubt you'll need to go anywhere else unless you decide to go with another manufacturer.
Get a barrel that has known variables. True 5.56 chamber, 1/7 twist so you can shoot heavier bullets if needed. Any of the BCM barrels or DD barrels would be good. You may also getting a Noveske barrel as well.
I wouldn't buy a Stag or BM barrel, that's just me.
seen that.. i see lots of dif barrels jus need some input
im building an m-4 based on a large pin colt lower. ive purchased a daniel defense flattop upper designed for the large hole colts..now i have to decide what barrel assembly to buy and what twist...ill shoot primarily 55 gr rounds. price isnt really an issue...ive looked at bushmasters and stags....any input??:confused:
If you're shooting primarily 55 FMJ go with the slowest twist you can find, these days that seems to be 1/9 but a 1/12 would be better. BUT! As Iraqgunz said, a 1/7 will give you more options for heavier bullets should you choose to go that route in the future.
Why do I suggest a slower twist with 55 FMJ? Two reasons; Supersonic bullets are steered by the base of the bullet. FMJ bullets are formed in a die from the nose back leaving an open base with lead exposed and are much more difficult to form a consistent base compared to a hollow point that is die formed from the base forward resulting in a much more consistent base. Also, and as a result of how FMJ's are formed, they suffer concentricity issues (out of rotational balance). A fast twist exacerbates out of balance and tends to cause the down range performance (accuracy, which should actually be refrred to as "Precision") to suffer. A 1/7 and even a 1/9 imparts a high rotational speed (high RPM) to 55 grain FMJ bullets (similar to an out of balance tire at highway speed it will oscillate).
With that said, what I described with 55 FMJ's (or nearly any FMJ bullet) from a fast twist barrel mostly shows up at ranges beyond 50 yards i.e., 100 yards and further. If most of your shooting is close in then it may not be an issue so really depends on your accuracy (precision) needs.
Don
I have fired 55gr. through my 11.5 SBR and was easily able to hit targets out to 220 yds.
If you're shooting primarily 55 FMJ go with the slowest twist you can find, these days that seems to be 1/9 but a 1/12 would be better. BUT! As Iraqgunz said, a 1/7 will give you more options for heavier bullets should you choose to go that route in the future.
Why do I suggest a slower twist with 55 FMJ? Two reasons; Supersonic bullets are steered by the base of the bullet. FMJ bullets are formed in a die from the nose back leaving an open base with lead exposed and are much more difficult to form a consistent base compared to a hollow point that is die formed from the base forward resulting in a much more consistent base. Also, and as a result of how FMJ's are formed, they suffer concentricity issues (out of rotational balance). A fast twist exacerbates out of balance and tends to cause the down range performance (accuracy, which should actually be refrred to as "Precision") to suffer. A 1/7 and even a 1/9 imparts a high rotational speed (high RPM) to 55 grain FMJ bullets (similar to an out of balance tire at highway speed it will oscillate).
With that said, what I described with 55 FMJ's (or nearly any FMJ bullet) from a fast twist barrel mostly shows up at ranges beyond 50 yards i.e., 100 yards and further. If most of your shooting is close in then it may not be an issue so really depends on your accuracy (precision) needs.
Don
I have fired 55gr. through my 11.5 SBR and was easily able to hit targets out to 220 yds.
And in a one off case that proves what? What was the target at 220 yards? Did you hit it with every round put down range? Did you shoot for group at 220 yards, if so, what was the group size?
Why is it that I offer my first hand experience to this forum and it is continually called into question? Is it because I am new here? Be that as it may, I have 30 years of experience with the AR, experience gained long before most here had any interest in the AR.
My advice stands and is based on 30 years of experience dealing with the 55 grain FMJ (and heavier) .223 bullets in twists from 1/6.5 to 1/14.
Don
And in a one off case that proves what? What was the target at 220 yards? Did you hit it with every round put down range? Did you shoot for group at 220 yards, if so, what was the group size?
Why is it that I offer my first hand experience to this forum and it is continually called into question? Is it because I am new here? Be that as it may, I have 30 years of experience with the AR, experience gained long before most here had any interest in the AR.
My advice stands and is based on 30 years of experience dealing with the 55 grain FMJ (and heavier) .223 bullets in twists from 1/6.5 to 1/14.
Don
Relax, it is just a discussion. No one is questioning your manhood. Personally, if what you told stick the other night about your experience is true I am very interested in what you say, and so will most others. But that said, this is a discussion board and sometimes opinions will differ, or be questioned, even between those who are the experts
Relax, it is just a discussion. No one is questioning your manhood. Personally, if what you told stick the other night about your experience is true I am very interested in what you say, and so will most others. But that said, this is a discussion board and sometimes opinions will differ, or be questioned, even between those who are the experts
I am relaxed, and it ain't about my "manhood" as stupid as that statement is. I just can't figure out why others here can't relax and except someone new who might offer some additional experience.
Be that as it may, I came here to learn as well as try to offer some first hand experience. Obviously that experience is not needed nor wanted here.
Adios!
Don
Iraqgunz is one to trust, he knows whats going on. I have as well shot 55gr XM193 thru my 10.5in 1/7 Noveske barrel'd SBR and 200yrds and all 90rds I shot were in a steel 7in diameter plate. I wouldnt want to shoot any farther, as 10.5in isnt a distance barrel length. my 18in noveske barrel'd SPR holds 2MOA at 200yrds with 55gr XM193
jahwarrior1423
11-03-09, 22:10
Bravo Company has a sale right now with their barrels. I just picked one up and saved about $60.
My point was (and there are others here who have had similar results) is that a shorter barrel can still reach out. Though if I needed to make that shot I would select a different tool from the tool box. However, I at least know that it can be done.
I don't care about group sizes. If I can hit a mansized target at that distance then that's all I care about. The target in question was a little steel pig (I am sure that markm can tell us the size.)
There are many M4C members who use 55gr. ammo in their 1/7 twist barrels for training and most seem to confirm that the ammo is accurate to at least 100 yds.
Personally I know nothing of your experience or how long you have been dealing with AR's. My point was that your statement doesn't really match the day to day reality. Unless I misunderstood you and the point you were making.
And in a one off case that proves what? What was the target at 220 yards? Did you hit it with every round put down range? Did you shoot for group at 220 yards, if so, what was the group size?
Why is it that I offer my first hand experience to this forum and it is continually called into question? Is it because I am new here? Be that as it may, I have 30 years of experience with the AR, experience gained long before most here had any interest in the AR.
My advice stands and is based on 30 years of experience dealing with the 55 grain FMJ (and heavier) .223 bullets in twists from 1/6.5 to 1/14.
Don
This is the first time I have seen someone argue that a 1 in 7 twist rate will actually cause reduced real world accuracy with 55gr FMJ loads.
This past Sunday I was shooting on the 200yard line Federal 55gr FMJ out of an LMT 10.5" 1 in 7 twist barrel. Accuracy is excellent I have shot sub MOA, actually sub half MOA, groups using 55gr FMJ ammo from that LMT SBR at 100yards. I also shot about 10 or 12 5 and ten shot groups through a Daniel Defense SPR (Lothar Walther 1 in 7 twist barrel with a wylde chamber), and that rifle was able to hold 5 shot groups at right on MOA at 200yards, I have frequently shot 55gr FMJ and lighter weight HP and V-Max and consistently got sub 0.5 MOA through it.
I don't buy that a 1 in 7 will cause your accuracy to be reduced shooting 55gr FMJ loads, no matter how old the proponent is.
Cameron
either way gentlemen thank you very much for all the input. i understand what everyone is saying...now to decide what to buy..lol
another thing i failed to mention is that i already have a 1\7 colt 20. ive never had problems with it at 200 yards...however i wasnt sure about shorter barrles and stability
The length of the barrel is not the issue. Barrel length will really only effect velocity. In fact a shorter barrel can be more rigid than a similarly contoured longer one and consequently shot to shot accuracy can be better out of a shorter barrel. If I was buying a new short(er) AR I would buy a 1 in 7 twist for the ability to to able to shoot weights from 50-77grs without an issue. A 1 in 9 twist would be I good twist rate to consider as a second choice.
I have:
16" SPR Lothar Walther Wylde chamber 1 in 7 sub MOA accuracy with quality ammo weights from 45-77 grs
16" HBAR Colt with 5.56 chamber and chrome 1 in 9 twist a decent MOA barrel with weights from 45-69grs.
10.5" LMT 5.56 chamber and chrome 1 in 7 twist not shot a lot for accuracy but amazingly it has produced sub MOA groups at 100 yards.
The differences in shot to shot velocities due to the ammunition variances will effect your accuracy much more than the twist rate or the barrel length. To answer your initial question I would use a 5.56NATO chambered chrome lined 1 in 7 twist 16" barrel for your purpose, I would not be bothered if I bought a 1 in 9 twist barrel either.
The real question is what weight of barrel to you want, HBAR, pencil or something in between. Reliability, balance, accuracy, durability would be the things to consider. If I was in your shoes I would probably buy either a BCM BFH™ 16" Mid Length Barrel (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Barrel-Stripped-p/bcm-brl-s-mid-16%20bfh.htm) or Daniel Defense 16" Mid Length Gas Barrel Assembly 1/7 Twist (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-Mid-Length-Gas-Barrel-Assembly-p/dd%2010106.htm).
Cameron
im building an m-4 based on a large pin colt lower. ive purchased a daniel defense flattop upper designed for the large hole colts..now i have to decide what barrel assembly to buy and what twist...ill shoot primarily 55 gr rounds. price isnt really an issue...ive looked at bushmasters and stags....any input??:confused:
Get a DD A1 barrel or a Middy barrel (which will be out shortly).
C4
And in a one off case that proves what? What was the target at 220 yards? Did you hit it with every round put down range? Did you shoot for group at 220 yards, if so, what was the group size?
Why is it that I offer my first hand experience to this forum and it is continually called into question? Is it because I am new here? Be that as it may, I have 30 years of experience with the AR, experience gained long before most here had any interest in the AR.
My advice stands and is based on 30 years of experience dealing with the 55 grain FMJ (and heavier) .223 bullets in twists from 1/6.5 to 1/14.
Don
Off case?? I shoot 55gr 90% of the time through 10.5's and 11.5. Hitting targets out to 300yds (the size of a gopher) is of no issue.
Typically, I can get 55gr ammo to group .75 to 1MOA at 100yds from an SBR with a 1/7 twist.
C4
Off case?? I shoot 55gr 90% of the time through 10.5's and 11.5. Hitting targets out to 300yds (the size of a gopher) is of no issue.
Typically, I can get 55gr ammo to group .75 to 1MOA at 100yds from an SBR with a 1/7 twist.
C4
I applaud your prowess with 55 grain FMJ through your AR, although I'd like to see confirmation of consistent .75 MOA results because they would be the rare exception from my experience. You must have found an exceptional lot of ammunition.
Don
I applaud your prowess with 55 grain FMJ through your AR, although I'd like to see confirmation of consistent .75 MOA results because they would be the rare exception from my experience. You must have found an exceptional lot of ammunition.
Don
Not rare in the least and typically do it with Hornady TAP PRACTICE ammo!
As the winner of many Vickers walk back drills (with a 4MOA Aimpoint), rest assured that my "prowess" with an SBR (1/7 twist) and 55gr ammo is legendary! ;-)
C4
Not rare in the least and typically do it with Hornady TAP PRACTICE ammo!
As the winner of many Vickers walk back drills (with a 4MOA Aimpoint), rest assured that my "prowess" with an SBR (1/7 twist) and 55gr ammo is legendary! ;-)
C4
legendary is good but since I have no idea what the "Vickers walk back drill" is I hope you'll humor me by describing it.
My primary frame of reference is 11 years managing the local public shooting range and witnessing the frustration of those trying to obtain some semblance of accuracy from 55 grain FMJ from their AR's, as well as 20 years shooting high power across the course competition (CMP and NRA High Power... you know, Camp Perry...200,300, and 600 yard three position competition) with the knowledge of... if 55 grain FMJ is so accurate, and considering it is the least expensive ammunition out there, well then why is it that there isn't a single, not one, high power shooter shooting it (they mostly all shoot 1/6.5 to 1/8 twist custom built barrels)? That strikes me as odd that we don't have the same experience with it in our AR's as you do, and our AR's are almost all custom built, very often Kreiger barreled AR's.
You are familiar with CMP and NRA high power across the course competition (dominated by the AR15)?
Be that as it may, if you're ever in Boise, Idaho, or simply passing through on your way to somewhere else let me know. I have a 200 yard range with concrete bench rest grade shooting benches so bring any AR you choose and your 55 grain FMJ ammo and we can do some accuracy comparisons. I'd like to see that .75 MOA in person.
Thanks,
Don
It seems to me that the only person who is really having an issue with this whole thing is you. Some have pointed out that 55gr. ammo is accurate enough to train with and able to reach out past 100 yds and you don't want to believe it. I have seen it first hand and so have other members here.
It may not be .75 or even 1.5 MOA, but I don't concern myself with that kind of stuff. If it is minute-of-perp and I can hit a target consistently (which I can) then that is enough. If I need distance I'll grab my Noveske 1/7 or my Troy SOCOM II.
legendary is good but since I have no idea what the "Vickers walk back drill" is I hope you'll humor me by describing it.
My primary frame of reference is 11 years managing the local public shooting range and witnessing the frustration of those trying to obtain some semblance of accuracy from 55 grain FMJ from their AR's, as well as 20 years shooting high power across the course competition (CMP and NRA High Power... you know, Camp Perry...200,300, and 600 yard three position competition) with the knowledge of... if 55 grain FMJ is so accurate, and considering it is the least expensive ammunition out there, well then why is it that there isn't a single, not one, high power shooter shooting it (they mostly all shoot 1/6.5 to 1/8 twist custom built barrels)? That strikes me as odd that we don't have the same experience with it in our AR's as you do, and our AR's are almost all custom built, very often Kreiger barreled AR's.
You are familiar with CMP and NRA high power across the course competition (dominated by the AR15)?
Be that as it may, if you're ever in Boise, Idaho, or simply passing through on your way to somewhere else let me know. I have a 200 yard range with concrete bench rest grade shooting benches so bring any AR you choose and your 55 grain FMJ ammo and we can do some accuracy comparisons. I'd like to see that .75 MOA in person.
Thanks,
Don
AlphaTango23
11-04-09, 21:51
I love my Noveske SPR 18.5" 1:7.
I shoot 75 grain Sierra match king bullets most of the time, as well as military 55 grain.
legendary is good but since I have no idea what the "Vickers walk back drill" is I hope you'll humor me by describing it.
I would suggest that you attend a Vickers Tactical class as you might just learn a thing or two (or 20).
My primary frame of reference is 11 years managing the local public shooting range and witnessing the frustration of those trying to obtain some semblance of accuracy from 55 grain FMJ from their AR's, as well as 20 years shooting high power across the course competition (CMP and NRA High Power... you know, Camp Perry...200,300, and 600 yard three position competition) with the knowledge of... if 55 grain FMJ is so accurate, and considering it is the least expensive ammunition out there, well then why is it that there isn't a single, not one, high power shooter shooting it (they mostly all shoot 1/6.5 to 1/8 twist custom built barrels)? That strikes me as odd that we don't have the same experience with it in our AR's as you do, and our AR's are almost all custom built, very often Kreiger barreled AR's.
You are familiar with CMP and NRA high power across the course competition (dominated by the AR15)?
Be that as it may, if you're ever in Boise, Idaho, or simply passing through on your way to somewhere else let me know. I have a 200 yard range with concrete bench rest grade shooting benches so bring any AR you choose and your 55 grain FMJ ammo and we can do some accuracy comparisons. I'd like to see that .75 MOA in person.
Thanks,
Don
Managing a public range? Watching people that most likely can't shooting, trying to become shooters???
Well say no more, I won't comment any further as I must be wrong!
If you were not aware, the Military has been using 55gr ammo for quite some time in their 1/7 twist weapons (fyi). They also have some how managed to kill a couple people with the M193 as well. ;-)
Does a heavier grain bullet work well at distance (especially when it is windy)? Sure does. I do a lot of shooting with 69gr, 75 and 77 (to include the MK262) and have gotten fantastic results.
What I and others are trying to tell you is that you can shoot 55gr ammo out of 1/7 twist AR's with good results.
My most shocking 55gr ammo & 1/7 twist stories happened this summer.
I was zeroing a DD M4 with an Aimpoint M4S for a customer. I used UMC 55gr ammo to do it. I consider this ammo to be some of the worst in the accuracy department.
That gun and ammo managed to produce half inch groups. I was in such shock that I almost kept it for myself!
C4
It seems to me that the only person who is really having an issue with this whole thing is you. Some have pointed out that 55gr. ammo is accurate enough to train with and able to reach out past 100 yds and you don't want to believe it. I have seen it first hand and so have other members here.
It may not be .75 or even 1.5 MOA, but I don't concern myself with that kind of stuff. If it is minute-of-perp and I can hit a target consistently (which I can) then that is enough. If I need distance I'll grab my Noveske 1/7 or my Troy SOCOM II.
While I did not address myself to you on this go around, I value your input. Be that as it may, I didn't bring up the .75 MOA claim for 55 grain FMJ (laughable at best) someone else did and I challenge that claim.
I also realize that for you, if you can hit a man size target at whatever range, well then you're happy. That's understandable but some of us want better. My response to the OP was made in consideration of that as well as trying to provide some technical background as to why an FMJ bulllet is typically not as accurate as an non-FMJ bullet. Perhaps that explanation fell on deaf ears.
Don
With that said, what I described with 55 FMJ's (or nearly any FMJ bullet) from a fast twist barrel mostly shows up at ranges beyond 50 yards i.e., 100 yards and further. If most of your shooting is close in then it may not be an issue so really depends on your accuracy (precision) needs.
The above statement was made by YOU after I recommended a 1/7 twist to the OP. A 1/7 twist will allow for a wider range of bullet weights to be used. In addition you can make hits consistently and fairly easy past 50 yds and certainly past 100. That contradicts your claim. I would venture to guess that 60% + of the members here are using 55gr. in their 1/7's. I would also be willing to bet that they have had good results out past 50 and even 100 yds.
I don't own target rifles and see no need for them. That's me. Having said that, if I need an accurate AR to reach out I can grab one of the other AR's in my safe.
MY POINT IS THAT EVEN AN 11.5" SBR WITH A 1/7 TWIST CAN ACCOMPLISH MOST TASKS. Would I used it to hunt gophers, probably not.
I also understand the dynamics and working of FMJ bullets vs. OTM/ Hollowpoints which is why I use 75gr. TAP ammo in 5.56 for anti-social purposes.
While I did not address myself to you on this go around, I value your input. Be that as it may, I didn't bring up the .75 MOA claim for 55 grain FMJ (laughable at best) someone else did and I challenge that claim.
I also realize that for you, if you can hit a man size target at whatever range, well then you're happy. That's understandable but some of us want better. My response to the OP was made in consideration of that as well as trying to provide some technical background as to why an FMJ bulllet is typically not as accurate as an non-FMJ bullet. Perhaps that explanation fell on deaf ears.
Don
I would suggest that you attend a Vickers Tactical class as you might just learn a thing or two (or 20).
Managing a public range? Watching people that most likely can't shooting, trying to become shooters???
Well say no more, I won't comment any further as I must be wrong!
C4
I can only say your conclusion shows a lack of understanding and consideration of the public. 11 years on a range allows one to know who can shoot and who can't. Are you so Obamaishly arrogant as to hold the general public in contempt that you think there are no good shooters out there in the general population? I would call that disgustingly arrogant and not my experience at all.
Do not flatter yourself to think there are not folks out there who can shoot. Do not ever disparage the general public They just may be your customers reading this.
I could have been a customer of yours.
As I said, let's see your consistent .75 MOA.
Don
thopkins22
11-04-09, 22:52
I think the difference here is in usage. If you're shooting at 500 yards while slung tightly, using a Kreiger barrel, and wearing a shooting jacket then all these Camp Perry type arguments make sense.
However in 99% of practical usage be it civilian, law enforcement, or military there will be far more variables that not only make such accuracy unnecessary, but also impossible.
Many subscribe to the bullseye type arguments, hence the A2 stock and rear sight. But like everything else, experience seems to push those arguments aside. You're far more likely to knock the target adjustment on your sight off and be at a disadvantage than you are to engage at 500 yards. You're far more likely to be unable to efficiently achieve a proper sight picture using an A2 stock while "fighting" with your rifle than you are to benefit from using it a extreme distance from the perfect prone position. You're far more likely to benefit from a quality red dot sight than from the latest and greatest 7-28x scope.
The features that generally accompany a 1/7 barrel such as proper barrel steel and proper(not excessively accurate and tight,) chambers are FAR more important to me than a quarter inch at 100 yards.
I don't think anyone is attacking you d30gaijin, we're simply stating that at some point it's getting wound up over what in the real world has been proven to be a non issue.
I generally hit 10/10 aiming at the upper chest area of a CSAT target at 300 yards, with Prvi Partisan 55gr. FMJs. That's sufficient for anything that I could ask without optics. I'm sure that I could do much better with the same average ammunition and magnification.
Why do people use the super heavy bullets for shooting beyond any practical range? I'm not a long range shooter by any means, but wind and retained velocity would be the most obvious.
hey mike you got the Daniel Defense upper why not a barrel from them ?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-M4-Carbine-Gas-Barrel-Assembly-p/dd%2010104.htm
With that said, what I described with 55 FMJ's (or nearly any FMJ bullet) from a fast twist barrel mostly shows up at ranges beyond 50 yards i.e., 100 yards and further. If most of your shooting is close in then it may not be an issue so really depends on your accuracy (precision) needs.
The above statement was made by YOU after I recommended a 1/7 twist to the OP. A 1/7 twist will allow for a wider range of bullet weights to be used. In addition you can make hits consistently and fairly easy past 50 yds and certainly past 100. That contradicts your claim. I would venture to guess that 60% + of the members here are using 55gr. in their 1/7's. I would also be willing to bet that they have had good results out past 50 and even 100 yds.
I don't own target rifles and see no need for them. That's me. Having said that, if I need an accurate AR to reach out I can grab one of the other AR's in my safe.
MY POINT IS THAT EVEN AN 11.5" SBR WITH A 1/7 TWIST CAN ACCOMPLISH MOST TASKS. Would I used it to hunt gophers, probably not.
I also understand the dynamics and working of FMJ bullets vs. OTM/ Hollowpoints which is why I use 75gr. TAP ammo in 5.56 for anti-social purposes.
I have no idea why you, and a couple of others, keep bringing up barrel length in terms of accuracy. Did I ever mention anything about barrel length in my original post? My original response was with regard to the accuracy of the 55 grain FMJ.
Don
thopkins22
11-04-09, 22:59
I can only say your conclusion shows a lack of understanding and consideration of the public. 11 years on a range allows one to know who can shoot and who can't. Are you so Obamaishly arrogant as to hold the general public in contempt that you think there are no good shooters out there in the general population? I would call that disgustingly arrogant and not my experience at all.
Do not flatter yourself to think there are not folks out there who can shoot. Do not ever disparage the general public They just may be your customers reading this.
I could have been a customer of yours.
As I said, let's see your consistent .75 MOA.
Don
That's a pretty rough comment there hoss. I don't think that Grant is going to lose any sleep over it. If the general public was training half as hard as much of Grant's clientele was, then they wouldn't be complaining about .25 MOA.
That's a pretty rough comment there hoss. I don't think that Grant is going to lose any sleep over it. If the general public was training half as hard as much of Grant's clientele was, then they wouldn't be complaining about .25 MOA.
I wouldn't expect him to... Hoss!
I'm not talking .25 MOA, I'm trying to confirm his .75 MOA claim. It has nothing to do with his customers. Get over it.
Would someone please read my original post rather than just being hangers on, and tell me what I said that was not true? If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
My offer stands, welcome to Boise and let's see that .75 MOA consistently.
Don
thopkins22
11-05-09, 00:17
Would someone please read my original post rather than just being hangers on, and tell me what I said that was not true? If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
I hang on the words of very few people. By and large, Grant and Iraqgunz are two of those people. I don't agree 100% with everything that they say, but when it corroborates my own experience, I certainly do.
Post #30 takes your initial post into account. I'm sure that what you said about bullet construction is true, I'm also sure that all else being equal it doesn't matter inside of 300 yards. The benchrest crowd can be very knowledgeable, they also tend to focus on things that are borderline immeasurable. When I'm interested in shooting the wings off of a gnat, I'll be sure to ask you. When I'm interested in learning what makes a carbine tick, I'm asking people with the most experience using/building/maintaining carbines.
Don, I read your first post as well as everyone else's on the first page all the way to the last on the 2nd page.
From your response to Iraqgunz' post:
"And in a one off case that proves what? What was the target at 220 yards? Did you hit it with every round put down range? Did you shoot for group at 220 yards, if so, what was the group size?
Why is it that I offer my first hand experience to this forum and it is continually called into question? Is it because I am new here? Be that as it may, I have 30 years of experience with the AR, experience gained long before most here had any interest in the AR.
My advice stands and is based on 30 years of experience dealing with the 55 grain FMJ (and heavier) .223 bullets in twists from 1/6.5 to 1/14."
Gunz simply stated his personal experience and in no way "called into question" your first hand experience.
As someone previously said, relax. Gunz and Grant have their own experiences and they and their knowledge are well respected around here. Doesnt mean yours isnt. You have yours too and people asking for opinions could definitely benefit from your experiences as a sport shooter as well. Just have some respect for everyone else around here and you'll come to see we all mean well.
There's no need go Obama-on-Foxnews. ;)
Just FYI:
The Vickers Walk Back Drill is something Larry Vickers does at his classes. I have experienced it with both handguns and carbines.
The details depend on the range available and probably on the level of the class.
In the Carbine Class, we set up a 10 or 12 inch steel plate (I never saw it up close so that is a guess on size) and then went back to around 25 or 37 yards to start (more or less -- we eyeballed the distances based on some marks that existed at the range). Everyone got one shot (standing off hand). Those who missed were out. Sometime you get a second shot with some handicap, say shooting weak side on the second shot. If you hit you are still in.
Everyone still in walks back to the next point, say from 37 to 50 yards. Same routine. Those still in walk back to the next point, say 62 yards. Same routine. Those still in walk back to say 75 and repeat. Those still in walk back to 100 then and repeat. If you have the distance you keep walking back until only 1 shooter is left.
At my class the furthest distance possible was about 115 yards so then we cycled through various "handicaps" like weak side, or one handed, or whatever until only one person was left. That person was the winner.
I can only say your conclusion shows a lack of understanding and consideration of the public. 11 years on a range allows one to know who can shoot and who can't. Are you so Obamaishly arrogant as to hold the general public in contempt that you think there are no good shooters out there in the general population? I would call that disgustingly arrogant and not my experience at all.
I have shot at many public ranges. Are there people at these ranges that can shoot? Sure. Then again, most of the ones that shot well are what we would call "fantasy power" shooters. Is standing still in a straight jacket really shooting? Don't think so.
I also see a lot of shooters at schools and also teach defensive pistol & carbine so I know what the general public can and cannot do.
Do not flatter yourself to think there are not folks out there who can shoot. Do not ever disparage the general public They just may be your customers reading this.
I could have been a customer of yours.
As I said, let's see your consistent .75 MOA.
Don
I think you should stop reading into what I have said. You based a good portion of your experience on what you see at a public range. From what I have seen, this is not a good example of what people can really do.
If you want to see what good shooters look like, go to an advanced Vickers Tactical class.
As I said, I have personally owned guns that can shoot between .75-1MOA with 55gr ammo. Do ALL 1/7 twist barrels shoot that well? Of course not. The ones that shoot well for me are Noveske N4's.
C4
as of right now, Im starting to think you have a hard to realising that the "Industry Professional" tag under some of these guys names means they know what they are talking about, and probably have a hell of a lot more trigger time than anyone else here. When they tell you, and even others with out the tag tell you that the 55gr FMJ bullet can get accuracy of a 1/7 twist it would be wise to assume that well, its true and not a fluke. Is it so hard for you to wrap your head around that maybe...gasp.... YOUR NOT ALWAYS RIGHT? seems to me you think your a subject matter expert in this area when EVERYONE else here is just a dumbass that has to be lying.
I had never built a custom AR before I came to this website. Since coming here, Ive listed to what Grant, Iraqgunz, Iraq Ninja, and many many others have said and suggested and have built both my 10.5in SBR and 18.5in SPR from what they have suggested. I use 55gr XM193 FMJ only. I have no other ammo. My 18.5in was sighted with 75gr Hornady 5.56x45 BTHP match ammo just for sighting purposes. Every other time I shoot, its with 55gr in ANY of my AR's..... and all of my AR's have 1/7 Noveske barrels except 1, and that one is getting WORSE accuracy with a 1/9 twist than my 1/7.
So Don, I believe its time you step back and maybe realise that, maybe, just maybe, your not the King of the subjects here, and what everyone has been telling you is a consistent and tried and true performance.... not just off chances.
Here are some groups shot with a Noveske Recon last year.
C4
For those that do not know, a penny is .74
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/16%20CM.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/16%20CM1.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/16%20CM2.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/16%20CM3.JPG
So Don, I believe its time you step back and maybe realise that, maybe, just maybe, your not the King of the subjects here, and what everyone has been telling you is a consistent and tried and true performance.... not just off chances.
I appreciate your advice and accept it but do have to say that I never hinted, said, or thought I was "King of the subjects here." I presume that is your assumption based on what you've read but you would be wrong in that assumption. I have readily admitted my experience is competitive CMP/NRA High Power, not tactical, although the former relies much more on precision than the latter.
As I said to Grant, and I am certain he is a very knowledgeable person as well as obviously respected here, if you're ever in Boise or passing through, drop me a note and we can spend some trigger time together, he or you with your 55 FMJ and and verify that .75 MOA.
As I said before, I applaud those of you who can attain consistent sub MOA with 55 grain FMJ from any twist rate barrel because your experience is considerably different than mine over the past 30 years... so pardon me if I'd like to co-witness it on the range.
Don
Jay Cunningham
11-05-09, 21:45
Don,
Why are you posting under two different accounts?
d30gaijin
75.94.22.133
Flatfield
75.94.22.133
and I will agree with some of the things you have said. I have shot NRA/CMP matches, shot 5yrs in a row at Camp Perry, the last 2 were with the AR platform. It was a factory Bushmaster 20in A2. So I really cant comment on the accuracy there as all I shot thru that was 62gr M855 as that is what my High School shooting team supplied while I was shooting for them, then coaching the following year after I graduated(damn, thats been 6yrs ago already.... ya ya Im a young one)
But Im saying, since I have been here, I have learned what works and what is recommended. 100% of the ppl here told me 1/7 is the way to go, even with 55gr XM193(which is the ammo I shoot 99% of the time), and I have had nothing but STELLAR results thru all of my AR's, with any barrel length(like I said previously, all my AR's are now 1/7)
Don,
Why are you posting under two different accounts?
d30gaijin
75.94.22.133
Flatfield
75.94.22.133
Wow! :eek: I think he slipped up and responded with the wrong account.
Belmont31R
11-06-09, 02:02
and I will agree with some of the things you have said. I have shot NRA/CMP matches, shot 5yrs in a row at Camp Perry, the last 2 were with the AR platform. It was a factory Bushmaster 20in A2. So I really cant comment on the accuracy there as all I shot thru that was 62gr M855 as that is what my High School shooting team supplied while I was shooting for them, then coaching the following year after I graduated(damn, thats been 6yrs ago already.... ya ya Im a young one)
But Im saying, since I have been here, I have learned what works and what is recommended. 100% of the ppl here told me 1/7 is the way to go, even with 55gr XM193(which is the ammo I shoot 99% of the time), and I have had nothing but STELLAR results thru all of my AR's, with any barrel length(like I said previously, all my AR's are now 1/7)
Damn I wish my HS had a shooting team....
And 95% of what I shoot is M193 variants (Federal and PP)...all out of 1/7 barrels. Never an issue, and the worst shooting one was about 4MOA at 100YRDS with an Aimpoint. Average is probably around 2-3" groups for all my AR's.
yeah my shooting team when i was 18 was the U.S. Marines haha. anyway i think ive decided to go with the daniel defense 16 inch barrel...a good idea?
yeah my shooting team when i was 18 was the U.S. Marines haha. anyway i think ive decided to go with the daniel defense 16 inch barrel...a good idea?
Yes, excellent. While sighting in an Acog on a DD M-4 a couple weeks ago at 100 yards a co worker and I ended up with a couple sub MOA groups with our issued 55 Remington FMJ! We thought it was a fluke but were able to repeat it last week. It is not the norm but happens often enough to make believers out of us as to the potential.
yeah my shooting team when i was 18 was the U.S. Marines haha. anyway i think ive decided to go with the daniel defense 16 inch barrel...a good idea?
excellent idea, Im going to be ordering one soon to complete my Limited Class 3gun rifle.
I appreciate your advice and accept it but do have to say that I never hinted, said, or thought I was "King of the subjects here." I presume that is your assumption based on what you've read but you would be wrong in that assumption. I have readily admitted my experience is competitive CMP/NRA High Power, not tactical, although the former relies much more on precision than the latter.
As I said to Grant, and I am certain he is a very knowledgeable person as well as obviously respected here, if you're ever in Boise or passing through, drop me a note and we can spend some trigger time together, he or you with your 55 FMJ and and verify that .75 MOA.
As I said before, I applaud those of you who can attain consistent sub MOA with 55 grain FMJ from any twist rate barrel because your experience is considerably different than mine over the past 30 years... so pardon me if I'd like to co-witness it on the range.
Don
Don (nice new account by the way). No need for me to "drop by and prove my comments." Incase you missed it on page two, I posted groups. ;)
Just as an FYI to you, having two accounts on M4C is a BIG NO NO. I imagine that you will be getting a little time out for that move.
C4
Don (nice new account by the way). No need for me to "drop by and prove my comments." Incase you missed it on page two, I posted groups. ;)
Just as an FYI to you, having two account on M4C is a BIG NO NO. I imagine that you will be getting a little time out for that move.
C4
Absolutely.
Jay Cunningham
11-06-09, 09:36
Don,
Why are you posting under two different accounts?
d30gaijin
75.94.22.133
Flatfield
75.94.22.133
Don,
Posting under multiple accounts will not be tolerated here. Your Flatfield account has been locked and your d30gaijin account has been locked for 30 days.
All members, please take note of this.
The_Katar
M4C Staff
Don (nice new account by the way). No need for me to "drop by and prove my comments." Incase you missed it on page two, I posted groups. ;)
Just as an FYI to you, having two accounts on M4C is a BIG NO NO. I imagine that you will be getting a little time out for that move.
C4
C4,
following this thread, and others you have posted in has made me decide that I will purchase whatever I can for my next build from the store in your signature.
Onto the topic at hand, I have seen people at public ranges with $600 kits with 1:7 shoot 55gr to under MOA... My limited experience here tells me that if they can do it with a crappy gun, why wouldn't it be possible (not guaranteed) with a better built gun?
throughout the thread, never once did anyone say that 55 gr through a 1:7 barrel is the best solution for accuracy, so I cannot find the issue...
thanks for the entertainment, and for the clear cut choice on where to spend my money!
This thread made for an interesting read!:D
From what's been discussed, I'm gathering that my 1 in 9 twist is a decent twist for inexpensive 55gr fmj target ammo? If this is wrong, someone square me away. I'm shooting the Remington UMC 55gr .223 whenever I get my hands on it. This barrel twist rate discussion is hard for me to wrap my head around with all the opinions out there.
Thanks
This thread made for an interesting read!:D
From what's been discussed, I'm gathering that my 1 in 9 twist is a decent twist for inexpensive 55gr fmj target ammo? If this is wrong, someone square me away. I'm shooting the Remington UMC 55gr .223 whenever I get my hands on it. This barrel twist rate discussion is hard for me to wrap my head around with all the opinions out there.
Thanks
Your 1/9 will like 55gr just fine.
C4
Good to know!
So nice to have a place to discuss this stuff with the experts.
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