View Full Version : Big Bore or Max Capacity Fire Power
PA PATRIOT
11-04-09, 16:27
I love Big Bore handguns like the .45acp, but then I also reach for the Glock 9mm for serious work also. Which would be tactically better for a fire fight if you were limited only to a "HAND GUN", Its totally obvious if a gun fight was brewing then a Rifle or a Anti-Tank Weapon would be a better choice. But we are talking everyday traveling about town or maybe a short distance away from home so most likely you would be carrying your usual off-duty or CCW load out in terms of magazines carried on your person, not in the vehicle or in a bail out bag.
Would you select a Commander sized 1911 or Glock Model-36 .45acp (6-1) or a similar sized Glock Model-19 9mm (15-1) or Model-26 (10 +1) and both are loaded with DocGKR's recommended ammunition and you carry one spare magazine on your person..
What are the reasons for your choice?
Both. 1911 in the holster on the belt and G19 in the pack.
If I get in a gunfight with a handgun it will most likely be close distance. No matter what I am carrying, at a close distance, I am very likely to engage with several shots. If I am carrying a 1911 with a 7 round mag I would shoot at least 4 rounds and have 4 rounds left. If I was carrying a G19 I may get off 5 or 6 and have 10 or 11 rounds left. I would have to say that I am more comfortable with the G19. I think the results would be equally devastating.
PA PATRIOT
11-04-09, 21:02
My take so far mirrors CoryCop25 that I like Maximum rounds in my pistol and on my person. I usually carry a five shot 2"inch .38spl in my front strong side pocket with two 6rd speed strips in the opposite pocket during the summer off-duty. Once fall hits were a cover shirt or jacket will do I move to the Glock Model-26 and a 15rd Model-19 magazine with a A&G grip extender for the 15 +1 payload. My second magazine is a standard model-26 10rd in a shorten Glock plastic magazine holder.
On the job I carry three additional magazines on my belt for my Glock Model-21SF for a total round count of 53rds of 230gr Federal Tactical HST. Before moving up in caliber to .45acp my Glock Model-17 9mm had a payload of 52rds total. I always prepare for a worst case scenario and keep extra spare magazines in my bag in a modified Fobus paddle magazine holder so I can just slip it into the rear of my duty belt for a active shooter. I have no possible chance of ammunition resupply on a active shooter as only a very few officers in my patrol district up-caliber-ed to .45acp guns and none work with my squad. No spare ammunition is kept at the district so once I'M out, I'M out and as 2nd weapons are forbidden by department policy as well as no shotguns or rifles for patrol officers.
Main reason I started this thread is to see if I was crazy for carrying so much lead and if others just maybe as crazy or more Conservative.
Outlander Systems
11-04-09, 21:44
My question is if the FBI has any statistics in the average amount of rounds expended during a gunfight. This might shape my opinion.
My take so far mirrors CoryCop25 that I like Maximum rounds in my pistol and on my person. I usually carry a five shot 2"inch .38spl in my front strong side pocket with two 6rd speed strips in the opposite pocket during the summer off-duty. Once fall hits were a cover shirt or jacket will do I move to the Glock Model-26 and a 15rd Model-19 magazine with a A&G grip extender for the 15 +1 payload. My second magazine is a standard model-26 10rd in a shorten Glock plastic magazine holder.
On the job I carry three additional magazines on my belt for my Glock Model-21SF for a total round count of 63rds of 230gr Federal Tactical HST. Before moving up in caliber to .45acp my Glock Model-17 9mm had a payload of 62rds total. I always prepare for a worst case scenario and keep extra spare magazines in my bag in a modified Fobus paddle magazine holder so I can just slip it into the rear of my duty belt for a active shooter. I have no possible chance of ammunition resupply on a active shooter as only a very few officers in my patrol district up-caliber-ed to .45acp guns and none work with my squad. No spare ammunition is kept at the district so once I'M out, I'M out and as 2nd weapons are forbidden by department policy as well as no shotguns or rifles for patrol officers.
Main reason I started this thread is to see if I was crazy for carrying so much lead and if others just maybe as crazy or more Conservative.
No I would not say that you are crazy for carrying that much ammo. But then I tend to go a little overboard by most peoples standards. There was a story I read a few years ago,I am fuzzy on the details, where some SWAT team went in to hit a house but the one guy inside was able to repel them. They only had one extra mag per man. The guy was able to pin down most of the entry team because they all went bingo, and he had lots to go. If I remember the entry team had MP5's. Things eventually worked out but not for a while, and I think that they lost a guy or two because they were pinned down for so long. What kind of craptastic moron said that backups are allowed to be carried, and why? While I am on it why no shoguns or rifles? If they are worried about liability issues then they need to realize that rifles are much better stoppers with better accuracy, which results in less of a chance of hitting an innocent. ****ing bureaucrats!!
Patrick Aherne
11-05-09, 00:35
9mm vs. .45 ACP is a moot argument, IMO. I would choose the G19 simply because, in my experience, G19s run better than Commander-length 1911's. Reliability + cost convinced me to choose a G19 this year for my off-duty/plainclothes pistol.
PA PATRIOT
11-05-09, 14:49
My question is if the FBI has any statistics in the average amount of rounds expended during a gunfight. This might shape my opinion.
I don't think we could really use the FBI statistics as a set in stone source since each and every gun fight is unique in terms of fire arms used and number of bad guys involved, also the FBI only tracks On-Duty Police related shootings and not Civilian or Off-Duty Law Enforcement. From past events there have been OIS's were Police fired hundreds of rounds at bad guys (LA Bank Robbery "Boo-Coo Rounds fired" & Phila PD 24th District Car Jacking shootout "320rds fired") with many similar events across the nation. I personally had On-Duty OIS's were I fired only two rounds one event and three rounds another so there is a Hugh disparity depending on the type of event and circumstances. Since I go into the unknown looking for trouble as part of my everyday duties as a PPD officer I have convinced myself that lots of rounds available on my person is a good thing. Also Big Effective Bullets help stop fights quicker so my move to the .45acp from the 9mm makes me feel better armed. I'll make the necessary changes asap for three spares on the belt and two more in the bag.
Off-Duty,
I would act on a personal deadly force assault, a use of deadly force against another, Armed Robbery with shots fired or a Active Shooter in a public space were Police are not on the scene. This has its own unique circumstances as I will not have body armor, will not be instantly recognized as a L/E/O and have a smaller sized firearm with a smaller reserve of spare ammo. Hence my original question of Big Bore or Max ammo Capacity. Total Concealment makes life much easier traveling armed off-duty so not to have the Po-Po called if a civilian happens to see my pistol print under my cover garment walking Thur a mall or store.
Shorts and Tee-Shirts presents it own challenges in the summer for total concealment and comfort while carrying. I will not go below a .38spl as a primary gun off-duty and would prefer a small, light weight 9mm if possible. The Glock Model-26 is just too heavy and blocky for serious summer wear carry even with the standard 10rd magazine for my body size no matter how I try to carry it. The .38spl 2" snub sides right into my pocket and most times I forget thats its even there but I'M not totally confident about its effectiveness and its limited five shot capacity. Right now I run with the .38spl and two six shot speed strips and practice speed reloads at the range, but I still have that little doubt in the back of my mind. Now if they could just make a super light weight .44spl then I would have a bit more confidence with a big bore wheel gun.
Spring, Fall and Winter is no problem as long shirts and coats will conceal just about any small to mid-sized pistols, so do I stay with my newly beloved .45acp and just live with reduced ammo capacity (One mag in the gun, one on the belt) or go with a trusted friend the 9mm with smaller diameter bullets but greater capacity.
Its a hard choice.
I shoot both the Glock Model-26 and 36 the same accuracy and time wise so theres no help that I shoot one better then the other.
Between a G36 and a G19 I'd take the 19, not much consideration needed on that question.
Semper Fi.
There is a big difference between a typical CCW shooting and a firefight. For military purposes more rounds is always, always, better. You have multiple threats over a period of time and don't know when you will get resupplied. CCW not so much but I would still err on the side of more rather than less. Obviously the ability to hit what you are shooting under stress is paramount over anything else though.
I can comfortably carry a fullsize M&P45, which holds 10+1 rounds. That is the only way I would rock a .45 compared to a 9mm. But between a 6+1 G36 or a 15+1 G19? The 19 everytime. I feel confident enough in my ability to carry a smaller round and place them where they need to go. I really have no preferance though - .45, 9mm, I dont care. Just whatever I'm feeling that day. It does give me warm and fuzzies to send that .45 slug downrange though.
PA PATRIOT
11-09-09, 16:54
It does give me warm and fuzzies to send that .45 slug downrange though.
I know how that new "warm and fuzzies" for the Federal Tactical 230gr HST H/P .45acp slug feels now that I have them loaded into my new Duty Glock Model-21SF. But to be honest if they would have up-graded my old Glock Model-17 to Federals Tactical 124gr or 147gr HST H/P's from the old Federal Classic 115gr H/P (BP9) then I may have never switched. It maybe years before they up-grade the current (BP9) 9mm ammo since they have a ton of the old stuff and want to issue it until its gone. Its a shame really but its all about PPD budget dollars and not about the individual officers safety by issuing the best duty ammunition possible.
The budget is what holds back the potential of having a very well trained and equipped police department. When I took over as firearms instructor at my PD, the first thing I did was clean out the arms room. There were boxes and boxes of ammo with numbers written on them. If they took 5 rounds out of the box they would write it down. The old chief would account for every PRACTICE round. Officers here fired a total of 60 pistol rounds 9mm (bp9) and 10 12ga rounds A YEAR! When I got the department to trade in their 14 year old Sig 228 9mm's for Glock 22s I told them that they would need a 250 round break in period, they flipped! Poor or sub-standard equipment and training can lead to law suits. Good ammo, well maintained guns and decent training can save millions in the long run.
Poor or sub-standard equipment and training can lead to law suits. Good ammo, well maintained guns and decent training can save millions in the long run.
It is sad that bureaucrats need that kind of language to understand reality.
I have both the Springfield XD 5" 45, and the Springfield SD 4" 9MM. Both are on my CCW, and both are effective. However there is one other gun which would be the best of both worlds. The Glock or XD 40. The 40 cal is the choice of most Federal Agencies, and for good reason. It has the penetration and hitting capacity of both the 45 and 9mm.
I am not a ballistician, nor will I get into which is better, but having shot a Glock 22 for 5 years, and seeing what it can do, I am sold.
Between the hi cap, and the dead accurary, you would be hard pressed to out do it.
PA PATRIOT
11-10-09, 00:32
The one saving grace that my department has is that they allow you 100rds a day, 500rds Max a week for practice on the departments outdoor range. Thats 26,000rds a year if you brave the weather and shoot every day Monday thur Friday, all 52 weeks of the year. I do take advantage and hit the range every time I possibly can working that Glock Model-21SF until its second nature. I maintain a log book on rounds fired so to keep the practice of changing the recoil spring every 2000rds and the magazine and firing pin springs every 10,000rds fired. I do a detailed strip and clean every Sunday without fail so hopefully with the spring changes and the TLC the Model-21SF will last as long as my Model-17 did giving 20yrs of perfect service.
Philly, how many guys take advantage of the daily and weekly ammo relinquishment? I am allowed to give out 50 rounds a month per officer and NO ONE ever signs out ammo. We are all given FREE membership to the gun club and the club is in our jurisdiction so we can actually go while on duty. I am the only one that goes other than qualification days. Kinda going off thread topic here, sorry.
I personally think they are apples and oranges that can both do the job.
You probably need to decide on the most likely potential threat. 1-2 attackers during car jacking, home invasion, mugging.........or...........surrounded by large number of gangbangers or zombies. I know LA PD that can carry a 45 and choose a Glock 9 because they are regularly surrounded by 20 plus gangbangers at an arrest. I know LA PD that carry 1911s in 45 and it works for their mission.
I would prefer a 45 any day over a 9mm, but if the realities of your potential # of attackers exceed 2-3 then I would go Hi-cap with a 9mm. I carry both but prefer a 45.
The Glock 21 covers both, but unfortunately I can not conceal a brick that well. Given today's threats that tend to run in packs, high capacity does get the node. But I have been "put on the spot" a few times where I thought something might happen, but thankfully didn't, and all the way home I was talking out loud to myself how I need a Glock 21.
PA PATRIOT
11-10-09, 14:15
Philly, how many guys take advantage of the daily and weekly ammo relinquishment? I am allowed to give out 50 rounds a month per officer and NO ONE ever signs out ammo. We are all given FREE membership to the gun club and the club is in our jurisdiction so we can actually go while on duty. I am the only one that goes other than qualification days. Kinda going off thread topic here, sorry.
I don't know the hard numbers but from what I have seen over the years looking at the sign in sheets is that roughly 25 officers a day during the mid-spring/summer and fall seasons and once its gets cold the numbers really drop.
Depends to me what we are talking about.
I am allowed a pistol / bug / shotgun / patrol rifle at work I can pretty much tailor what i deploy by situation.
At home / off duty. I have been carrying my G21SF alot lately in a Blade Tech IWB with a spare mag. Comforting to have 27 rounds of 45 acp on tap (230 Gr Gold dots are issue) I havent had to carry the 21 on a 100 degree 100% humidity Michigan day yet.
I do love my 19 and I am surgical with it. I normally keep it in my go bag with some extra mags. in an event of social unrest when im GTFO i like that the 19 has higher capacity. FOr me the commander length gun is not an option as i havent found one that runs. same runs true for the 36. and realisticaly given the size of the 36 i feel your better off with the 23 or 19
these are my thoughts not yours
ROY
PA PATRIOT
11-11-09, 13:53
Off-Duty the Glock Model-26 or 19 with two G-19 magazines in reserve maybe to way to go, last night I was bored and decided to watch that TV program were the ex-navy seal shows ways to survive attacks and disasters. The shows were of a sub-way nerve gas attack, active shooters inside a mall and a long term killer pandemic. Information was sub-par at best with a lot of assumptions that others would be like minded and willing to place their selfs in danger for the good of the whole. But in the active shooter bit as they had the great run and gun against 10 AK-47 bad guys I did see were a ton of shots could be fired in a mall setting as concealment and the mass area of the mall allowed for a running extended gun battle until police can breach the mall and make contact. Since the active shooter will most likely have a long arm of some type and will have no problem spraying the area or charging a threat since most likely he or she will kill himself/herself when cornered or wounded getting a accurate shots off from cover may be difficult. Suppressive fire burns bullets fast and you always have to have a escape route to disengage when the odds are stacked against you. Bullets, Bullets and more bullets appear to be the way to go.
Off-Duty the Glock Model-26 or 19 with two G-19 magazines in reserve maybe to way to go, last night I was bored and decided to watch that TV program were the ex-navy seal shows ways to survive attacks and disasters. The shows were of a sub-way nerve gas attack, active shooters inside a mall and a long term killer pandemic. Information was sub-par at best with a lot of assumptions that others would be like minded and willing to place their selfs in danger for the good of the whole. But in the active shooter bit as they had the great run and gun against 10 AK-47 bad guys I did see were a ton of shots could be fired in a mall setting as concealment and the mass area of the mall allowed for a running extended gun battle until police can breach the mall and make contact. Since the active shooter will most likely have a long arm of some type and will have no problem spraying the area or charging a threat since most likely he or she will kill himself/herself when cornered or wounded getting a accurate shots off from cover may be difficult. Suppressive fire burns bullets fast and you always have to have a escape route to disengage when the odds are stacked against you. Bullets, Bullets and more bullets appear to be the way to go.
In today's society... I completely agree.
1) Idiots travel in packs. Singular criminals choose soft targets. I'm not one.
2) The mall-shooting scenario is ever-possible. In which case, round-count is king.
I carry a S&W M&P9C, with 13 in the gun, and a 17-round back-up mag (standard 9c mag with +5 extension). I don't think 30 rounds is over-kill at all in today's world. That many rounds in a 45 requires a LOT more weight and mags, especially in a 1911 variant.
Jeff
I don't recall (could be wrong:p) any shooting massacres in US history where there was more than 2 shooters. That means you should only need 2 bullets. I will not lay down suppressive fire in a Mall:rolleyes: And just because the 1 or 2 bad guy has an AK with 500 rounds on him doesn't mean you need more than 1 or 2 bullets if you do your part.
Little urban gang bangers do not stand their ground and fight. They lay down suppressive fire as they run, so if you shoot back and make hits the gang of 30 will soon be a gang of long gone.
I'm not saying you shouldn't carry more ammo, but that a well trained man with a 1911 and "no" spare mags is still adequately prepared for 99% of most bad guy scenarios.
When the bad guy promises to go down with only two bullets, then I might consider a 1911.
.40 S&W; the best of both worlds.
PA PATRIOT
11-12-09, 08:58
I don't recall (could be wrong:p) any shooting massacres in US history where there was more than 2 shooters. That means you should only need 2 bullets. I will not lay down suppressive fire in a Mall:rolleyes: And just because the 1 or 2 bad guy has an AK with 500 rounds on him doesn't mean you need more than 1 or 2 bullets if you do your part.
Little urban gang bangers do not stand their ground and fight. They lay down suppressive fire as they run, so if you shoot back and make hits the gang of 30 will soon be a gang of long gone.
I'm not saying you shouldn't carry more ammo, but that a well trained man with a 1911 and "no" spare mags is still adequately prepared for 99% of most bad guy scenarios.
One or two shooters with long arms and numerous hi-cap magazines will produce a high casualties count in a crowded mall of unarmed innocents in short order. Slowing them up or pinning them down for even a few minutes gives responding law enforcement time to arrive and enter the area. M4Fundi your Kong-Fu must be strong to be able to engage and defeat two heavily armed shooters with just two rounds, please forward info were I may attend such Zen training :rolleyes:. Past events have shown that the shooter or shooters will either kill their selfs when wounded / cornered or will shoot it out until killed. I don't remember any giving up on command so one would have to expend rounds to save lives and buy time in most events. Suppressive fire is not blind fire in a active shooter engagement, I will only fire when I have eyes on the aggressor being aware of down range innocents and the back stop behind the shooter. We don't have gang bangers just corner boys, street level dealers who are all packing and not afraid to shoot at Police here in Philly as we have lost Eight officers in the past two years. It appears from are tragedies they don't cut and run as you stated 99% of the time.
PA PATRIOT
11-12-09, 08:59
When the bad guy promises to go down with only two bullets, then I might consider a 1911.
I hear you brother, I retired my Derringer back in the 70's.
whosyourdaddy
12-19-09, 01:37
Has anyone given consideration to the Kel-Tec pf-9 for summertime carry? I have purchased one and fired approx 700 rds with zero problems. Mags are expensive and DA only takes a bit to get used to but this is really a thin and light gun to pack.
PA PATRIOT
12-19-09, 02:06
Has anyone given consideration to the Kel-Tec pf-9 for summertime carry? I have purchased one and fired approx 700 rds with zero problems. Mags are expensive and DA only takes a bit to get used to but this is really a thin and light gun to pack.
I would consider them "JUNK" as I have yet to see one run reliably over any length of time. You may have gotten lucky with the one you got but the dozen or so I have seen students use had one issue or another and most never finished the course.
whosyourdaddy
12-19-09, 09:37
I'm new here,,,,,,,,enlighten me, what course are you referring to?
I solved the issue with a Glock 20, power and capacity in one gun.
PA PATRIOT
12-19-09, 14:13
I'm new here,,,,,,,,enlighten me, what course are you referring to?
IDPA Matches.
http://www.idpa.com/
What kind of craptastic moron said that backups are allowed to be carried, and why? While I am on it why no shoguns or rifles? If they are worried about liability issues then they need to realize that rifles are much better stoppers with better accuracy, which results in less of a chance of hitting an innocent. ****ing bureaucrats!!
No kidding. I'm amazed that Philly will allow you (Phila PD) to carry a .45 when most everyone else is carrying a 9mm, but won't allow you access to additional firearms. The only bad policy my agency has is no fixed blade knives, which rules out my TDI. I see lots of deputies carrying them anyway, but I don't want the policy issue to be an "issue" if I have to use it, so I just carry one of my Benchmade folders.
On thing you might consider in your deliberations is weather and how it may effect terminal performance if the BG is wearing multiple layers and heavy outer garments. If it's that cold, a good concealment rig might allow you to carry the 21SF concealed. Then you'd have the bonus of hi cap and .45.
I carry a 21 SF on duty as well, with 2 spare mags on the belt. My go bag has 6 additional mags, 4 of which have Arrendondo baseplates, giving me 40 230gr Gold Dots on the belt and 94 more in ready reserve, plus an additional 7 rounds in a Kahr PM9 in a vest holster. Of course, we also have 870's in the cruiser and are allowed to qualify and carry our personally owned AR's.
Good for you that you're shooting as much dept. ammo as you can + shooting matches. Sounds like you're more prepared than most.
PA PATRIOT
12-19-09, 18:32
The change to allow the Philly PD to carry .40S&W or .45acps on duty only came about less then a year ago and the Officer had to buy the gun. Now with are new labor contract which just came out on 12-18-09 the department must either pay the cost of the private owned gun back to the officer or issue a new city owned .40S&W or .45acp to any Officer who wishes to carry one, Still no second weapon or shotguns/rifles for patrol. I carry three spares on the belt and another two in a paddle holster stored in my bag which I can slip on my belt as I exit the vehicle for a active shooter, the department won't supply the extra Federal HST Tactical 230gr .45acp H/P rounds past the 40 they issue so I have to beg at the range or buy out of pocket the other 39rds needed to fill the spares.
Chickenlittle
01-16-10, 21:23
While the 45 is preferable for close up knock down power, I prefer my Glock 27, 40 cal. that's a fair trade off of power and number of shots.
The thing I like with a Glock pistol is that my spare mags are all full size but still fit the 27. I had to explain that to some rookies just getting their handguns at the Police Academy.
I also carry two full size mags when I carry my Glock 23, for the same reason.
Always wondered why Philly still sticks with 9mm.
Be safe by being careful!
...you carry one spare magazine on your person.
Easy decision for me: magazine capacity. 17 rounds of .45 ACP or 31 rounds of 9mm? I'll take the 31 rounds. I can shoot more before reloading and I'd have more total rounds available.
The Glock 21 covers both, but unfortunately I can not conceal a brick that well. Given today's threats that tend to run in packs, high capacity does get the node. But I have been "put on the spot" a few times where I thought something might happen, but thankfully didn't, and all the way home I was talking out loud to myself how I need a Glock 21.
I was about to post the same. I carry a 3rd Gen Glock 21 SF with an extra mag. That gives me 26 total rounds of 185gr +p Hydra shock 45ACP. Im a larger guy so concealing it isnt a problem for me. Im 6'2" 300lbs, most of the shirts I wear when I carry are baggy Polo type shirts that I leave untucked.
misanthropist
02-10-10, 23:45
I solved the issue with a Glock 20, power and capacity in one gun.
They say .40 is the best of both worlds and that may be true...but 10mm is the bester of both worlds.
The last time I was allowed to carry (I live in Canada now) everyone carried either 1911s or revolvers. Everyone I knew, anyway. The term "wondernine" was still common and I knew lots of guys that were pretty suspicious about Glocks.
Now maybe my circle of friends were all just living under a rock, but that was only ten years ago. Times sure have changed...I bet every one of those guys is carrying a Glock today, probably mostly in 9mm.
Anyway, I can't carry up here. I used to carry a 1911, but Glocks were still new and weird to me.
These days I might still carry a 1911, I guess. But I would probably prefer a G19.
PA PATRIOT
02-16-10, 19:04
ON-Duty I decided to go with the Glock Model-21SF .45acp with three spare magazines on the belt with will give me the same load out round count wise as my Glock Model-17 9mm did with two spares on the belt.
Off-Duty Cool Weather Glock Model-26 9mm with a 15rd Model-19 magazine and G&J grip extender and another 15rd magazine on the belt.
Off-Duty Summer Carry is a S&W Model-36 in the strong hand pocket with three speed strips plus a Kel-Tec P3-AT .380acp as a BUG
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.