View Full Version : Cash for Clunkers
Business_Casual
11-05-09, 09:49
Apparently, a lot of people traded F-150 pickups in for... F-150 pickups.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20091104/D9BOVMNG0.html
Another success from the Obama Administration!
M_P
LOL not surprised. I briefly considered doing the exact same thing, then decided I would rather not have a car payment right now.
whiterabbit05
11-05-09, 10:28
But it did manage to stimulate spending and increase GDP by a couple of hundred basis points...woohoo the recession is over!
NOT!!!
MarshallDodge
11-05-09, 10:37
Bad begets bad.
Belmont31R
11-05-09, 10:39
But it did manage to stimulate spending and increase GDP by a couple of hundred basis points...woohoo the recession is over!
NOT!!!
Yes but it also destroyed how much 'wealth' because good, usable, and sellable cars were destroyed?
I think that the entire cash for clunkers thing was a complete crock of s--t. I have whitnessed first hand what the dealerships are required to do with the "clunkers" after they are traded in. They gut the interiors, strip the body, and dump a chemical in the engine that basically locks every moving part up, destroying the engine. The only people that this helped were people who could already afford to buy a new vehicle. I saw tons and tons of vehicles that were a hell of alot nicer than what I drive scrapped. That a big ol slap in the face to me from the US government. Sadly enough, many of these would be worth well over 5k in a personal sale. People are stupid. Just think about how the government has poured money into the big 3, and then think about what kind of vehicles most people traded into via cash for clunkers. Toyotas. Hondas. Kias. Kinda seems like shootin yourself in the foot if you ask me. I hate seeing Japs outselling our auto makers that supported this country for 50 plus years. And dont tell me that they (japs) are the only true "American automakers" because they assemble cars here. Thats another crock of f--k. Its rediculous that our government allows foreign companies to set up shop on American soil and take over our economy.
LegalAlien
11-05-09, 11:19
And dont tell me that they (japs) are the only true "American automakers" because they assemble cars here. Thats another crock of f--k. Its rediculous that our government allows foreign companies to set up shop on American soil and take over our economy.
Before you spout BS, I would suggest you make sure of your facts.
Go do some research about the local content of Toyota Tundra, Tacoma, Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Venza.
Go study where the parts for these vehicles are manufactured.
Go study where the assembly plants for these vehicles are.
Go study how many Americans are employed and working productively (no Union BS shops) to put these cars together.
Go study how many of these peopel were NOT laid off during the recession by the "foreign company that is taking over our economy"
Go study how many satelite supplier businesses this foreign company keeps in business, by sourcing parts locally.
Yes, it is good to be a patriotic American. but please use common sense and have an informed opinion, before you just go blasting the Japs.
WWII is long gone - the US blew the shit out of them at Hiroshima and Nagasaki - now it is time to move on.
Business_Casual
11-05-09, 11:24
Yes, please don't let this devolve any more. We live in a global economy and people work for companies based all over the globe. Go get a job at one and you'll see they are usually well-run.
The point of this thread is that Government shouldn't intervene in the free market. Cars should either sell or not sell based on their own merits. All these programs (house credits, unemployment, clunkers) do is distort the market and prolong the distress.
M_P
LockenLoad
11-05-09, 11:28
Before you spout BS, I would suggest you make sure of your facts.
Go do some research about the local content of Toyota Tundra, Tacoma, Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Venza.
Go study where the parts for these vehicles are manufactured.
Go study where the assembly plants for these vehicles are.
Go study how many Americans are employed and working productively (no Union BS shops) to put these cars together.
Go study how many of these peopel were NOT laid off during the recession by the "foreign company that is taking over our economy"
Go study how many satelite supplier businesses this foreign company keeps in business, by sourcing parts locally.
Yes, it is good to be a patriotic American. but please use common sense and have an informed opinion, before you just go blasting the Japs.
WWII is long gone - the US blew the shit out of them at Hiroshima and Nagasaki - now it is time to move on.
I have to agree, they just built a billion dollar plant in Tennessee, be mad at the unions and the management of the big 3, and our elected representatives. Be mad at all of the former elected officials who sell themselves as lobbyist. No one really represents the people anymore, it's big business and special interests.
LegalAlien
11-05-09, 11:51
Yes, please don't let this devolve any more. We live in a global economy and people work for companies based all over the globe. Go get a job at one and you'll see they are usually well-run.
The point of this thread is that Government shouldn't intervene in the free market. Cars should either sell or not sell based on their own merits. All these programs (house credits, unemployment, clunkers) do is distort the market and prolong the distress.
M_P
Not that I am pro-government and definitely do NOT agree with government interfering in private business, but I will confess, (as a Toyota salesman), that the Cash-for-clunkers program put pretty decent money in my pocket. I was able to pay quite a few bills with the extra money that came in in July and August.
Business_Casual
11-05-09, 11:52
Not that I am pro-government and definitely do NOT agree with government interfering in private business, but I will confess, (as a Toyota salesman), that the Cash-for-clunkers program put pretty decent money in my pocket. I was able to pay quite a few bills with the extra money that came in in July and August.
And when the sales drop off in 2010 because the program front-loaded the sales into 2009, what will you do? :D
M_P
LegalAlien
11-05-09, 12:18
And when the sales drop off in 2010 because the program front-loaded the sales into 2009, what will you do? :D
M_P
Then, I will be out on my ass, claiming unemployment - like so many others :D
I can't believe that anyone thought that the program was going to be anything other than a massive GOVERNMENT give away funded by tax payers, that would be filled with corruption and incompetency. Thank the lord that this time it was only cars, just wait til it is your health care.
BTW My 2008 Tundra crewmax 4X4 is made in America by Americans using 90 plus percent American content. Seems American made enough for me.
Ok not to debate whether it was a good or bad idea, whether the government should have its nose in the car business or any other business. Speaking strictly from a fossil fuel consumption and emissions perspective I find the whole F-150 for F-150 trade thing a little inflammatory without more specific numbers. Did a bunch of people trade in 2007 F-150's for 2010 F-150's? If so I can see the beef. Or did a bunch a people trade in gas guzzling mid 70's F-150's for more modern trucks? I have a hard time believing that 20-30 yr old vehicle is as fuel efficient as a modern, right off the assembly line pickup.
690,000 vehicles were sold through this program, but 565,000 of them would have been sold even without the program!
That means that the $3,000,000,000 that we collectively spent was paid to "stimulate" a marginal gain in the automotive sales market of 125,000 vehicles. So really instead of $3,500-4,500 per vehicle, the actual marginal cost of selling those vehicles is actually $24,000 per car.
More government efficiency :rolleyes:
Deleted because I can't count:D
Before you spout BS, I would suggest you make sure of your facts.
Go do some research about the local content of Toyota Tundra, Tacoma, Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Venza.
Go study where the parts for these vehicles are manufactured.
Go study where the assembly plants for these vehicles are.
Go study how many Americans are employed and working productively (no Union BS shops) to put these cars together.
Go study how many of these peopel were NOT laid off during the recession by the "foreign company that is taking over our economy"
Go study how many satelite supplier businesses this foreign company keeps in business, by sourcing parts locally.
Yes, it is good to be a patriotic American. but please use common sense and have an informed opinion, before you just go blasting the Japs.
WWII is long gone - the US blew the shit out of them at Hiroshima and Nagasaki - now it is time to move on.
Couple that with that fact that the foreign owned Auto companies did not take any bailout money. I personally will never buy a car from any company that took my tax dollars to prop it up.
This means that I will be buying a Ford, Honda, Nissan or Toyota.
C4
LegalAlien
11-05-09, 15:49
Ok not to debate whether it was a good or bad idea, whether the government should have its nose in the car business or any other business. Speaking strictly from a fossil fuel consumption and emissions perspective I find the whole F-150 for F-150 trade thing a little inflammatory without more specific numbers. Did a bunch of people trade in 2007 F-150's for 2010 F-150's? If so I can see the beef. Or did a bunch a people trade in gas guzzling mid 70's F-150's for more modern trucks? I have a hard time believing that 20-30 yr old vehicle is as fuel efficient as a modern, right off the assembly line pickup.
Just to set the record straight, it would have been very foolish to trade a 2007 F-150 under the clunker deal, as the actual trade value of such a truck would be substantially higher than the $3,500 or $4,500 clunker rebate. Only vehicles that would have fetched lower than the clunker rebate amounts as trades, were traded for the higher clunker rebate.
If any customer fell for a deal where the actual trade value was higher than the rebate value and the dealer only gave them the clunker rebate, then they got screwed by the dealer and if they were that stupid, they deserved to be screwed by the dealer.
CarlosDJackal
11-05-09, 16:06
...I hate seeing Japs outselling our auto makers that supported this country for 50 plus years. And dont tell me that they (japs) are the only true "American automakers" because they assemble cars here. Thats another crock of f--k. Its rediculous that our government allows foreign companies to set up shop on American soil and take over our economy.
That's funny. My Honda was made/assembled in the USA but my Dodge is made in Canada.
What you're whining about is nothing more than Capitalism. The US auto makers wouldn't be so far behind the Japanese brands if they actually did their homework, listened to customers, quit pandering to the unions, and adopted such things as JIT manufacturing techniques instead of hanging on to techniques that were introduced by Henry Ford almost a hundred years ago.
Anyone who has taken a Business or Marketing 101 class should know that how well you do depends on how many possible customers become actual customers. If all you have to sell is a brand label and a tag that says "Made in the USA"; you're probably doing something wrong. An affordable import that is on the streets will beat an expensive local brand that sits in a repair shop every time. JM2CW.
I read something a while back that said the Camry beat out the F-150 for the most American vehicle produced. that includes everything from workers to materials, so dont get your panties in a bunch.
now the cash for clunkers program did really stimulate the vehicle companies and im sure their owners made a bunch of money on all the sales....Wait, didnt the govmnt take over most of the companies....so wait....that means.......oh ok the govt is the real winner from that crock of shit program.
Im just glad its over. I know a few ppl who are in the car sales business and i was getting reallllly tired of hearing about it every damn day, lol
cash for clunkers rebate $4K...cost per taxpayer, $24K...avg cost of car $24K
first time home buyer rebate $8K...cost per taxpayer, $43K...
cash for new appliances rebate $?...cost per taxpayer, $?K...
what a great idea to prop up our economy with our taxdollars and can't wait to see how much my taxes go up...lovely!!!
As someone who took advantage of the handout that was C4C I'd like to offer my thoughts.
First off I'm a bit ashamed for eating Govt cheese. I've railed for years about how I can't stand paying for Govt sponsored "charity" and now I feel a bit the hippocrite.
Getting past that I rationalized that this money is being spent either way, I can opt in and benefit from what is ultimately "my money" or I can just give it away and continue to bitch about it.
I chose to trade in a 10 year old SUV that was getting 14 mpg for a Ford Escape that gets 24. I saw this as a good thing both for me and for the country...the sooner we get off the foreign oil the better. I also felt Ford deserved my business as they took no bail out funds.
The deal worked out really well for me. I dumped a truck with 200k miles on it and a slipping transmission. Actual value was like $100. I got $4550 for it and coupled with employee discounts ("s" plan) and rebates walked away with a $24K truck for a touch over $16k. At the end of the year I get to write off the sales taxes as part of another stimulus that most people don't realize exists...which means my total expense was $14k.
That said, I didn't need the new truck. I bought it because the price was right. I was planning to dump the old one and walk away from it as I have another car to drive. It is fair to say that this program did pull me out into the dealerships and got me to spend some money I wasn't planning to spend...
In the end I've still got mixed feelings about it.
As someone who took advantage of the handout that was C4C I'd like to offer my thoughts.
First off I'm a bit ashamed for eating Govt cheese. I've railed for years about how I can't stand paying for Govt sponsored "charity" and now I feel a bit the hippocrite.
Getting past that I rationalized that this money is being spent either way, I can opt in and benefit from what is ultimately "my money" or I can just give it away and continue to bitch about it.
I chose to trade in a 10 year old SUV that was getting 14 mpg for a Ford Escape that gets 24. I saw this as a good thing both for me and for the country...the sooner we get off the foreign oil the better. I also felt Ford deserved my business as they took no bail out funds.
The deal worked out really well for me. I dumped a truck with 200k miles on it and a slipping transmission. Actual value was like $100. I got $4550 for it and coupled with employee discounts ("s" plan) and rebates walked away with a $24K truck for a touch over $16k. At the end of the year I get to write off the sales taxes as part of another stimulus that most people don't realize exists...which means my total expense was $14k.
That said, I didn't need the new truck. I bought it because the price was right. I was planning to dump the old one and walk away from it as I have another car to drive. It is fair to say that this program did pull me out into the dealerships and got me to spend some money I wasn't planning to spend...
In the end I've still got mixed feelings about it.
there is no shame in what you did. the problem arises when people are driving $100 cars because they cant afford anything else, then this comes along and they decide to get a loan they know they cant afford on a new car that gets repossessed in 6 months. Plus a bunch of good running/looking cars were crushed due to this program...
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