Dealing with bad laws

[Spade]

This kind of got started on another thread that I did not want to hijack. So the question is if you do not agree with a law do you disregard the law. My general response is if you know the law & choose to break it you are a criminal. That being said I am sure that most of us have broken a law intentionally, such as speeding or whatever. But at what point do you draw a line or do you ever. Another example might be carrying concealed when posted that you can’t or business does not allow it. I know some will get the heebie-jeebies with this thread & I understand but if you would like to post opinions please do.

[CCK]

I don't care about any laws.

I treat people as I wish to be treated.

I don't initiate force against anyone but will respond in kind and with overwhelming force.

If you see me "obeying" a law, it is merely out of convenience.

Words like crime, criminal, mean nothing to me.


To quote a friend of mine, Mike Vanderboegh with regards to new firearms laws, he penned The Doctrine of the Three Percent:
"We will not disarm.

You cannot convince us.

You cannot intimidate us.

You can try to kill us, if you think you can.

But remember, we'll shoot back.

And we are not going away.

Your move. "


I would follow this up with another timely example. This one written by a gentleman calling himself Dedicated_Dad:
"Though I find much in the life, philosophy and words of Malcolm X with which I disagree, there is one phrase of which I am perhaps more fond than he:

By Any Means Necessary.

This great Republic is filled with men who - like me - will not submit to tyranny.

Though I have maintained medical insurance throughout my adult life - at great expense, especially during periods of unemployment - This I vow:
if this disgusting travesty is signed into law I will immediately and permanently drop my coverage.

Further, I will take any and all possible steps to avoid paying any taxes or penalties associated with this ridiculous abuse of power.

Let me be plain: I hereby announce my intention to do everything within my power to willfully violate the so-called "coverage mandate" - for no other reason than the fact that I am a free man and will not be subjugated by this or any other regime.

Let this statement serve as my declaration and confession of guilt - if I am without coverage it is due to a deliberate and willful act on my part.

Further, let this serve as a warning that I will resist any and all attempts to use physical force to compel my compliance (or punish my non-compliance) by any and all means which are or may come to my disposal.

By Any Means Necessary.

Let me be clear: I have always maintained health insurance and will continue to do so - but an out-of-control government's demand that I do is probably the only thing which could PREVENT me from doing so.

I am a citizen, not a subject.

I will not submit.

I will resist.

By Any Means Necessary."






Chris

[Bubba FAL]

I just posted a rather long dissertation about this on another thread, so I will summarize.

Legal does not automatically mean moral.
Illegal does not automatically mean immoral.

If there is a conflict between the two, I choose to follow moral law. If I face prosecution because of this choice, so be it. For example, if a law was enacted that made it illegal to be a Christian (which has happened throughout history), I would disregard this law and take my chances with the civil authorities. Rather cut my temporary stay here short than jeopardize eternity.

Is this what you were looking for?

[DragonDoc]

This kind of got started on another thread that I did not want to hijack. So the question is if you do not agree with a law do you disregard the law. My general response is if you know the law & choose to break it you are a criminal. That being said I am sure that most of us have broken a law intentionally, such as speeding or whatever. But at what point do you draw a line or do you ever. Another example might be carrying concealed when posted that you can’t or business does not allow it. I know some will get the heebie-jeebies with this thread & I understand but if you would like to post opinions please do.

I know for a fact that citizens willfully break laws all the time. There are many laws that soldiers break without batting an eye. Adultery, for instance, can get you five plus years. Sodomy gets you the same sentence. Now name one married soldier who has experienced some form of sodomy with his or her spouse. Another point of contention would be the law making it illegal to have a personal firearm on federal installations. I posted an opinion on this law on this thread http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41094. I know soldiers are breaking this law. How can you tell someone that they can't have a firearm in their car when the state that they reside in says that their car is part of their domicile/castle. Where does illegal/unreasonable search of the home kick in? I found a interesting account of the Fort Hood incident. (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41157) The Jag officer that filed this account stated that he was in the parking lot when he shooter can out. If he had a weapon in his car, he could have taken action. The soldiers in the medical building could have protected themselves by returning fire when the shooter started firing. So yes we break laws and I don't believe that it makes you a criminal unless you hurt someone or infringe on their rights. Remember your rights begin when where someone else's end.

[Spade]

Some very good points have been made. For the most part it seems that we will follow laws as; A. a matter of convenience, or B. if it is in line with our moral code. I guess I can agree with that. Some have already answered this but if you get caught breaking a law you knew you were breaking how do handle it? Do you say ok & pay the fine or do you complain or state your point regardless of the outcome?

Do we hold others to our same ideals? For instance if a starving person steals some bread to eat or feed his family it may be with in his moral compass. However do we punish him for stealing? Perhaps this comment from DragonDoc is the most fitting.

“So yes we break laws and I don't believe that it makes you a criminal unless you hurt someone or infringe on their rights. Remember your rights begin when where someone else's end.”

[Bubba FAL]

I got some very good advice from a coworker years ago.

Basically, I was bitching about being caught with alcohol in my possession (I was a minor). She told me, "you broke the law, you got caught, now quit whining about it, be a man and take your punishment".

I followed this advice and took my lumps. Still do - if I get a speeding ticket, I pay the man. I can only recall one incident where the infraction was questionable, but I still paid the fine - figured it made up for the times I didn't get caught.

Now if I am falsely accused of something, I will fight tooth and nail to clear my name.

As to your hypothetical scenario of the man stealing bread to feed his family - our legal system does account for mitigating circumstances in some crimes. This is why there is a distinction between justifiable homicide (as in self-defense) and murder. I would, however, question why the man felt compelled to steal rather than seek some form of charity.

[Bolt_Overide]

I swore an oath some years ago, that I would defend that old peice of parchment we all hold dear.

That oath does not end because I can no longer soldier.

I will resist peacefully as long as I am able, when that ability is taken from me, I will resist non-peacefully.

I will not abide a tyranical government, and no citizen of this country should, any who do, do not deserve their citizenry.


Now for the caviat, I do not think we are to the point of needing any more action than peacable protesting, be that assembly, supporting lobbying organisations of the same mind, or writing your represetatives. Our country has problems, but we are still one whole hell of a lot better off than most all of the rest of the world.

[Spade]

IAs to your hypothetical scenario of the man stealing bread to feed his family - our legal system does account for mitigating circumstances in some crimes. This is why there is a distinction between justifiable homicide (as in self-defense) and murder. I would, however, question why the man felt compelled to steal rather than seek some form of charity.


:D Well you got me there. May be a pride thing who knows.