View Full Version : Slapping in Combatives
What would you rather endure from a training partner, a punch to the chest at 25% power or a slap to the face at say 15%? I for one will take the punch. Slaps are too often over looked when it comes to combatives.
Slaps are intuitive and much easier to become efficient with than other hand strikes. One of the biggest problems with teaching people to strike efficiently is getting them to follow through and visualize the energy going beyond the target. Due to the open hand and arc of slaps, it is much easier.
Lets talk about targeting with slaps. First, and most obvious, the head. A power slap to the head is more likely to effect the Central Nervous System, Circulatory System, and Structural System than any other strike. Here is why, picture yourself slapping someone across the face/side of the head as hard as you can, I mean really putting your hips into it. Upon contact it will overload all the nerves of the face, the eyes will involuntarily close as the head snaps back at a 45 degree angle. This is the Central Nervous Systems disruption, not only is the brain being over loaded by the sting of the slap, but the brain, and Ocular nerves are also being violently smashed into/towards the side of the skull. Structural System disruption is being achieved by the cervical vertebrae being instantly squeezed together. As the head moves back and to the side, the body is taken off center and your attackers base is destroyed, if only for a second. Using your hands large surface area to the target rich area of the face/neck increases the likely hood of either striking the Vegus Nerve, which provides information about the state of the body's organs to the Central Nervous System, or the Baroreceptor which serves as your body's thermostat.
A few classes ago an advanced student volunteered for a little experiment. After donning the appropriate protective equipment, headgear, and mouthpiece for him, and eye protection for me, we proceeded. Standing within arms distance with an exposed G17 airsoft in his holster, the directions were simple, whenever he was ready he was to draw the pistol and try to shoot me. I in turn was supposed to only defend myself by slapping him in the side of the head. He drew the gun and I slapped, luckily "checking" my slap instead of following through. Both of us being right handed, as soon as he was slapped his head spun back and to his right, my pinkie struck below the headgear and made contact with the Baroreceptor. His gun, just out of the holster fell to the floor out of his limp arm and I moved forward to grab him before he hit the ground. Took him a few minutes to recover.
Moving onto other targets, MCS never relies on pain to make techniques work but we don't mind it helping either. I along with many reading this have higher than average pain tolerance than others who don't train. That said I have found that pain tolerance has little to do with things that sting, like being smacked across the lower back or even the chest. A powerful slap to the chest causes the arms to go out to the side and then forward, as the chin snaps violently to the chest. My other favorite is on the inside of the leg, halfway between the knee and groin, easier to strike than the groin. Causes people to open their legs to establish base, this in turn exposes the groin.
So in closing, maybe you should consider adding the slap to your striking repertoire.
Derek_Connor
11-12-09, 22:11
Lets talk about targeting with slaps. First, and most obvious, the head. A power slap to the head is more likely to effect the Central Nervous System, Circulatory System, and Structural System than any other strike. Here is why, picture yourself slapping someone across the face/side of the head as hard as you can, I mean really putting your hips into it. Upon contact it will overload all the nerves of the face, the eyes will involuntarily close as the head snaps back at a 45 degree angle. This is the Central Nervous Systems disruption, not only is the brain being over loaded by the sting of the slap, but the brain, and Ocular nerves are also being violently smashed into/towards the side of the skull. Structural System disruption is being achieved by the cervical vertebrae being instantly squeezed together. As the head moves back and to the side, the body is taken off center and your attackers base is destroyed, if only for a second. Using your hands large surface area to the target rich area of the face/neck increases the likely hood of either striking the Vegus Nerve, which provides information about the state of the body's organs to the Central Nervous System, or the Baroreceptor which serves as your body's thermostat.
Merc - good post. Definitely agree with the physiological events above.
Outside the box though, I think a big part of whether a slap would be effective will depend largely on the individual receiving the slap.
Like most of the CNS reflexes, some can be conditioned, some cannot. I could imagine someone who trains in combatives would be more habituated to this even than most.
In the surgeries I witness I see Neurosurgeons constantly massaging/moving the Carotid sinus around, and also retracting the Vagus out of their way, rarely do we see fluctuations in BP/HR and so on. But, I will readily admit, patients are under anesthesia :)
Not saying your example of the advance student isn't legit, but it still stands only as a sample of one.
It would be a decent study to explore with a large sample.
Mercop, thank you for informative post.
I don't know anything about unarmed combat, or, for that matter, any combat. I do know a few things about human anatomy and physiology and there are several inaccuracies in your third paragraph in that regard.
I do not believe that they invalidate the premise, conclusions and good intentions of your post, but I think your post would've been even better without them.
YVK, can you explain why? That is the way I teach it and am always open to feedback to make it better.
As far as targeting the Barorecptor, while on the job I had good luck with both using it as a striking target and controlling someone in handcuffs, once was after an individual kicked out the side window of my partners car. There was a crowd and I needed to control him.
Here is a pic striking a Bob- I intentionally hit high so as to give a been view of the compression of the neck.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/mercop/slap.jpg?t=1258081346
@Mercop: I'll send you a pm; I don't want to derail a good thread. Thinking of it, I probably should've gone pm route to begin with. I apologize.
@Derek: you bring up an interesting point, and I'll talk to some of my colleagues about effects of general anesthesia on carotid sinus and baroreceptors. In awake nonanesthetized patients effects of carotid sinus/baroreceptors pressure on blood pressure and heart rate is an undisputed fact. We use it in attempts to terminate some tachyarrhythmias and it is responsible for quite a few [usually older] folks passing out. The textbook scenario is an elderly male finding himself on the floor after shaving the neck or wearing a starched shirt with a tight collar. The thing is that the magnitude of response is variable from person to person, and, therefore, final outcome is unpredictable. Some folks will have profound decline in heart rate or blood pressure or both and they will collapse. Some won't.
As a side note if your slap misses your intended target and gets an ear it'll definitely ring their bell too!
Yes it can, another great reason for the strike.
Derek_Connor
11-13-09, 07:58
@Derek: you bring up an interesting point, and I'll talk to some of my colleagues about effects of general anesthesia on carotid sinus and baroreceptors. In awake nonanesthetized patients effects of carotid sinus/baroreceptors pressure on blood pressure and heart rate is an undisputed fact. We use it in attempts to terminate some tachyarrhythmias and it is responsible for quite a few [usually older] folks passing out. The textbook scenario is an elderly male finding himself on the floor after shaving the neck or wearing a starched shirt with a tight collar. The thing is that the magnitude of response is variable from person to person, and, therefore, final outcome is unpredictable. Some folks will have profound decline in heart rate or blood pressure or both and they will collapse. Some won't.
YVK - agreed. We recently had a patient come in for a CEA after shaving. 90% stenosis.
He says he will never shave again after going weak on his contralateral side :eek:
I've always seen/heard the docs get anesthesia a WARNO regarding the massaging of the sinus, retraction of the sheath, just for those very reasons, but in my limited experience we've never seen any significant changes.
Could it also vary on the amount of adipose/muscle tissue the person has and wether or not the massage/hit is strong enough?
@ Merc - im not a student of advanced combatives, so treat me with kid gloves:
What do you think about hitting someone with that amount of force straight to the trachea/larnyx possible crushing/disrupting breathing? Wouldn't that be a more sure thing than relying on sinus/barorecepter strike?
Any strike to the throat is a good one. The problem is that part of the human stress response is to bring the chin down to the chest to protect the throat. The best way I have found to land this strike is by forming a C with your thumb and index finger to strike the chest and slide up and in funneling into the throat.
What I like better are chin jabs that come up and in under the line of sight. Especially if the BG has his tongue between his teeth:) This also cause the cervical vertebrae to compress, the eyes slams shut, and the pelvis to flare out. - George
Derek_Connor
11-13-09, 08:18
G -
Im tracking...makes sense.
Good stuff.
We do our best to avoid closed hand strikes. I just saw too many officers damage their hands from punching clients in the head. Since most of us are carrying guns and knives you need your hands to work. Lots of slaps, backhands, palm smashes/jabs, and my favorite...elbows. Preferably driving the BG into vertical surfaces like vehicles and walls.
A good rule of thumb for combatives is hard weapons to soft targets and soft weapons to hard targets. Open hand strikes, face smashes, etc are great to the head. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali uses a ton of slaps and open hand strikes in their mano mano curriculum. In addition, the use of the "big guns" i.e. headbutts, knees, and elbows are always a good choice.
I am amazed at the number of people who rely solely on their firearms for protection and do not train H2H, blade, etc. I go to classes, competitions, the range and see these hugely overweight guys rocking the fanciest of chest rigs and a drop leg holster but they couldn't run across the room without dying and they would be screwed if they were attacked at close range by a knife wielding assailant or even a person with basic empty hand skills.
Good discussion.
A good rule of thumb for combatives is hard weapons to soft targets and soft weapons to hard targets. Open hand strikes, face smashes, etc are great to the head. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali uses a ton of slaps and open hand strikes in their mano mano curriculum. In addition, the use of the "big guns" i.e. headbutts, knees, and elbows are always a good choice.
I am amazed at the number of people who rely solely on their firearms for protection and do not train H2H, blade, etc. I go to classes, competitions, the range and see these hugely overweight guys rocking the fanciest of chest rigs and a drop leg holster but they couldn't run across the room without dying and they would be screwed if they were attacked at close range by a knife or empty hand using opponent.
Good discussion.
I could not have said it better myself. Same thing with police these days. Too much focus on the OC, and way too much on the Taser. One thing that will never change is that at some point you will need to go hands on for cuffing. People think they are going to be able to wish the gun into their hands.
I have trained extensively in BJJ and Muay Thai. I have yet to see a situation in which a slap would be more appropriate than a pulled punch or a palm strike.
I can see pulled punches or slaps only being useful in an extremely limited number of situations.
If you are considering slapping, then one should be throwing punches. A quick effective punch can do more to control a person than a slap that is most likely just going to piss someone off.
Slapping a combative drunk, old person, girl, or sissy may work. On most others, I don't see it. I don't care about seeing the head compress towards the neck. If slapping were so effective, others would be touting it's effectiveness.
Slapping is simply misguided practice at a less useful technique.
I have trained extensively in BJJ and Muay Thai. I have yet to see a situation in which a slap would be more appropriate than a pulled punch or a palm strike.
I can see pulled punches or slaps only being useful in an extremely limited number of situations.
If you are considering slapping, then one should be throwing punches. A quick effective punch can do more to control a person than a slap that is most likely just going to piss someone off.
Slapping a combative drunk, old person, girl, or sissy may work. On most others, I don't see it. I don't care about seeing the head compress towards the neck. If slapping were so effective, others would be touting it's effectiveness.
Slapping is simply misguided practice at a less useful technique.
Thank you for your input.
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 18:41
Good post as always...very thought provoking.
A slap or curved open hand strikes are very effective and there are targets that will yield reflex reactions regardless of physicall stature or prowess.
I firmly believe that the closed fist is a social medium whereas the open hand is a killing medium...
A slap to the ear = ruptured inner ear(very easy to accomplish). Yields loss of sensory function(hearing), equilibrium is shot so balance, depth perception, cognizance etc... Again, very dangerous and universal(works on anyone) target.
A slap to the groin... often the worst way to strike someone in that region... Consistently yields a spinal reflex and can be executed in unconventional or uncomfortable positions(laying on the back or side etc.)... This can yield a ruptured testicle and if accompanied by a firm grasp can be very de-motivating for the opposition... There is a woman that survived a rape and fatal stabbing by palming a fistful o testicles and squeezing the living shyt out of them. The dude beat on her and tossed her around but she never let go until he was in tears and begging to be released.
The upper pectoral as well as the scapula area is a good open hand target becuase of the brachial plexus... Take a curved open hand and step into a slap to this target area on your opponent and see what happens... You may be suprised..
Open hand slaps are effective on the bladder and inner thigh(mentioned above)...they also work well as a diversion/deflection medium for incoming agressive movement...with empty hands, guns, knive and blunt object...
I often like to incorporate a firm grasp or siezure of the area after it is slapped as it adds to the trauma and control of the effected body...
Thanks Mercop for giving me the opportunity to rant...
Black Lion, thank you for your educated and informative post.- George
I would add other open hand strikes such as a face smash, chin jab, or just a straight on palm strike to he side of the head that really don't qualify as slaps to the list as well as hammer fist strikes. All of those can be done with a high likelihood of pain on the receiving end and very low likelihood of injury to the person doing the hitting. Punching is great for soft targets but not to the side of the head or jaw. Muay Thai is a fantastic art but has the benefit of being able to wear gloves and wrist wraps when they fight in the ring or spar during practice. Those gloves are there primarily to protect your hand, not the guy being hit. You don't have the option in the real world to have wraps and gloves, which is why you see so many combatives art forms using open hand strikes to hard targets and saving the punches for the softer ones like the mid-section, neck, groin, etc... The Sudden Violence program that Kelly McCann uses at Crucible uses the face smash, chin jab, cup hand blow to the ear as discussed earlier, hammer fist, and forearm strikes for the hand strikes. There is no punching to be found. As I mentioned earlier, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali does the same thing as does many other Filipino combative styles. I love Muay Thai and train some of it myself in addition to FMA and grappling but I also know the difference between a ring sport and the real world.
The vast majority of "scary" moments in classes have been the result of elbow shots, even light ones to the side of the head. Another favorite is one right in the middle of the back if you end up in a position to do so.
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 19:58
I have trained extensively in BJJ and Muay Thai. I have yet to see a situation in which a slap would be more appropriate than a pulled punch or a palm strike.
I can see pulled punches or slaps only being useful in an extremely limited number of situations.
If you are considering slapping, then one should be throwing punches. A quick effective punch can do more to control a person than a slap that is most likely just going to piss someone off.
Slapping a combative drunk, old person, girl, or sissy may work. On most others, I don't see it. I don't care about seeing the head compress towards the neck. If slapping were so effective, others would be touting it's effectiveness.
Slapping is simply misguided practice at a less useful technique.
A big negative...
George was very polite in his response to this post. I will attempt to follow along the same lines.
However I cant let piss be confused as gloden rain.
The course of fire in the above post is mis-guided and in-accurate.
A slap as referred here is a palm strike...and he specifically stated the bofy weight is behind it.
I am sensing you are coming from a social violence standpoint in which rules,morals and laws govern your actions... One of my good friends and a great fighter died under the same umberella... He was very skilled and very trained but not for a-social confrontation... He used his fists and feet to fight 5 LA gang bangers and he won... until one thug was unhappy enough with the results to go to thier car nearby and grab a shank and re-join the brawl... 4 quick jailhouse shots to the upper chest that resembled punches, one striking his aorta... he said " I got em, I got em" as they ran away...He did not even know he was already dead... DRT.
Shervin Tehranchi was his name.
Its reasons like this that caused me to take a hard look at what I thought I knew, even after 15 years of training... Asocial confrontation is not about how good a fighter you are or even how strong and skilled you are... Its about the unfair advantage, knowledge of weakness, ambush, and the will and intent to destroy flesh and bone by driving your body through whatever target makes itself available and then creatiing a chain of effects by taking advantage of the somatic reflex that is controlled by the spine, not the brain... Its assymetrical, unconventional and void of any rule, law or moral...
Violence is what it is and it behooves us to know our enemy... its not the piss drunk at the bar that wont stop staring at your girlfriends ass... its the sociopath in the bushed waiting for you to make a mistake so he can ram cold steel through your flesh...
I say this becuase George never comes from a social standpoint... his posts are geared toward asocial violence and a fight for your life in which the social bs is inapplicable... If I am incorrect, please feel free to check me.
Oh...
You dont slap women, children or the elderly.
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 20:07
The vast majority of "scary" moments in classes have been the result of elbow shots, even light ones to the side of the head. Another favorite is one right in the middle of the back if you end up in a position to do so.
Funny you mention the elbow in the back... I dont know if you have tried the "brachial plexus" shot or not but it is an eye opener...
Stepping through the target(btween thier legs) and elbowing in a downward 45 degree angle to the left or right of the spine just under the trapezius will send them flat on their face every time... If its done right you can bank on it. If they are taller than you, you have to kinda leap into it to where your shin contact the small of the back and the elbow hits the same mark...
Please excuse my ranting...
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 20:14
I would add other open hand strikes such as a face smash, chin jab, or just a straight on palm strike to he side of the head that really don't qualify as slaps to the list as well as hammer fist strikes. All of those can be done with a high likelihood of pain on the receiving end and very low likelihood of injury to the person doing the hitting. Punching is great for soft targets but not to the side of the head or jaw. Muay Thai is a fantastic art but has the benefit of being able to wear gloves and wrist wraps when they fight in the ring or spar during practice. Those gloves are there primarily to protect your hand not the guy being hit. Anyone who thinks boxing gloves or mma gloves are to protect the guy being hit has never been hit by a boxer who knew what they were doing. You don't have that option in the real world to have wraps and gloves which is why you see so many combatives art forms using open hand strikes to hard targets and saving the punches for the softer ones like the mid-section, neck, groin, etc. The Sudden Violence program that Kelly McCann uses at Crucible uses the face smash, chin jab, cup hand blow to the ear as discussed earlier, hammer fist, and forearm strikes for the hand strikes. There is no punching to be found. As I mentioned earlier, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali does the same thing as does many other Filipino combative styles. I love Muay Thai and train some of it myself in addition to FMA and grappling but I also know the difference between a ring sport and the real world.
Good post...
There is much deadliness to be found in Muay thai but not how it is presented in a day to day fashion in schools or training or competition...
Surachai Sirisutes son is a good friend of mine...He grew up in my neighborhood.
Good post...
There is much deadliness to be found in Muay thai I agree 100%, I have no doubt of the usefulness of the art at all.
QuickStrike
11-14-09, 06:51
Oh...
You dont slap women, children or the elderly.
Yea guys, don't do it.
Try palm strikes + punches, elbows and knees first. :D
I certainly would hit one, if they were armed and threatening me/others.
Hell in some parts of this country, there are little 12 year olds out there dealing drugs and mugging people. EXPECT IT FROM ANYONE!
I am sensing you are coming from a social violence standpoint in which rules,morals and laws govern your actions...
See?
So why not use your fists in a street fight? They'll break? Big deal, lots of things can break and you probably won't feel your hands much anyway.
Unless you're going to fight multiple streetfights all in a row, there will be time to recover. :p
My habits are so ingrained that it would be impossible for me to remember not to use them in a fight anyway.
My only concern is that messed up hands would be bad for drawing the pistol and using it after striking the BG off of you. But this risk is greatly lessened if one avoids going for the actual skull/cranial vault area so, meh..
What do you think about hitting someone with that amount of force straight to the trachea/larnyx possible crushing/disrupting breathing? Wouldn't that be a more sure thing than relying on sinus/barorecepter strike?
That's a good idea. I'd go for the chin instead though. If you miss low, you'll hit the throat. Go really high and you'll smash the nose, which can be pretty distracting! What if you hit the teeth? Ah well, some cuts on your hands, maybe diseases...
This is NOT a risk free activity! :o
Some good conversation here, I am talking about "a way" not "the way". The totality of the circumstances dictates your actions.
The world does not stop for your broken heart...or hand. Example, I worked with a cop who really had the fight in him, good cop, a veteran with lots of heart. During and altercation he was knocked to the ground and planted his thumb, snapping it, then the suspect began to go for his gun. The officer recounted to me how frustrating and terrifying it was that he could not use his thumb in the fight, it was destroyed. The troops came and subsequently issued a old school beat down on the BG. It was around Christmas time and because of the injury the office was unable to work the holiday OT details. Took quite a chunk of money out of his pocket. Also put us one man down on our SWAT team for about 6 weeks. And with a 10 man part time team that hurts. My point is that you need your hands for the fight, and every day life. Protect them like it.- George
QuickStrike
11-14-09, 10:06
Some good conversation here, I am talking about "a way" not "the way". The totality of the circumstances dictates your actions.
The world does not stop for your broken heart...or hand. Example, I worked with a cop who really had the fight in him, good cop, a veteran with lots of heart. During and altercation he was knocked to the ground and planted his thumb, snapping it, then the suspect began to go for his gun. The officer recounted to me how frustrating and terrifying it was that he could not use his thumb in the fight, it was destroyed. The troops came and subsequently issued a old school beat down on the BG. It was around Christmas time and because of the injury the office was unable to work the holiday OT details. Took quite a chunk of money out of his pocket. Also put us one man down on our SWAT team for about 6 weeks. And with a 10 man part time team that hurts. My point is that you need your hands for the fight, and every day life. Protect them like it.- George
Good point, and something for me to consider. I still think that by avoiding the skull vault, one would be pretty safe from major hand problems. There is some cushion and give in the rest of the face...
I am very short, most of my punches will be coming upwards and not downwards on someone's dome + hopping head butts. Muahahaha :D
Since I fight open handed I teach something called hooking, you use your two middle fingers to hook things like the wrist, back of neck, and the traps from behind to control. It totally takes your thumb out of the equation. Even when I lift I don't use my thumbs but instead hook the bar.
What I prefer instead of a head butt is hooking them behind the head with my two fingers around the spine and slam their head into my shoulder/collar bone.
Another nice thing about hooking and taking you thumb out of the mix is that it is easier to stay close to your opponent. - George
spamsammich
11-14-09, 15:29
The very few times I have gone upside somebody's head with a slap resulted in some pretty interesting bruising that almost instantly effected my ability to form a fist afterward. Basically ended up with bruises at the middle and ring finger metacarpal joints, on the inside of the middle knuckle joints, and in the middle of my palm which all together made it very painful to clench my hand into a fist and continue striking.
In Kun Tao and Silat, there is a whole subset of slapping arts, generally with a relaxed hand (so as to cover the most surface area) called 'soft hands'. Incredibly painful and almost deceptively damaging because you weren't punching. Hits to the face, back of the neck, ribs were pretty un-farking-pleasant.
Slaps have a place in a hand-to-hand toolbox.
QuickStrike
11-14-09, 19:00
The very few times I have gone upside somebody's head with a slap resulted in some pretty interesting bruising that almost instantly effected my ability to form a fist afterward. Basically ended up with bruises at the middle and ring finger metacarpal joints, on the inside of the middle knuckle joints, and in the middle of my palm which all together made it very painful to clench my hand into a fist and continue striking.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. If the person pulls their head back, you'd likely be hitting with just the tips of your fingers... = possible dislocation of fingers & maybe some tearing of tissue.
I have dislocated both thumbs at work (labor job), and while it popped back in place just fine right after, was hard to really squeeze anything hard for a few days.
It seems like the hands are really delicate in almost any kind of striking.
Yes, you can hit women, children, or the elderly in the right circumstance. Once again, I do not see the need for slapping.
As far as not fighting in the asocial ring: is there any other kind? Anyone that makes a distinction b/w the two does not have their head on right.
I lived in the Caribbean on two separate islands. I was forced to fight more than once. Thank goodness for BJJ and Muay Thai. I lived in NOLA before, during, and after Katrina. I have been forced to square up in bad situations. I have never seen the benefit of slapping.
You do not change the basic fighting skill set simply b/c you are going to be in a confrontation in which you know your opponent could choose to fight with no rules.
One does not rise to the occasion. One falls to the level of their training.
I am going to fight the fight in the manner in which I have trained.
Anyone that has trained extensively in BJJ, MT, or other extremely physical art has been hit in the nuts many times. You get used to it and learn to keep on. Same with many dirty tactics. So the MF'er bit my thumb off, I'm not going to stop and say, "That's not fair." I'm going to pour some blood in his eye for an advantage.
A pulled punch will stop a confrontation much more decisively than a slap. Slapping is an insult and could cause the agitator to continue for sake of pride.
Pull an accurate punch on a guy and he's much more likely to think, "That guy could have punched me full on and ****ed me up. But, he didn't. I'd better check myself before he ****s me up."
Slap a guy and even if it is a good one, his pride may be saying, "This guy just slapped me, I can't let this go."
To gain compliance, pull a punch. Better yet, land a good strike and end it before it begins. Just make sure the strike is on par with the issue.
photosniper
11-15-09, 22:50
Yes, you can hit women, children, or the elderly in the right circumstance. Once again, I do not see the need for slapping.
As far as not fighting in the asocial ring: is there any other kind? Anyone that makes a distinction b/w the two does not have their head on right.
I lived in the Caribbean on two separate islands. I was forced to fight more than once. Thank goodness for BJJ and Muay Thai. I lived in NOLA before, during, and after Katrina. I have been forced to square up in bad situations. I have never seen the benefit of slapping.
You do not change the basic fighting skill set simply b/c you are going to be in a confrontation in which you know your opponent could choose to fight with no rules.
One does not rise to the occasion. One falls to the level of their training.
I am going to fight the fight in the manner in which I have trained.
Anyone that has trained extensively in BJJ, MT, or other extremely physical art has been hit in the nuts many times. You get used to it and learn to keep on. Same with many dirty tactics. So the MF'er bit my thumb off, I'm not going to stop and say, "That's not fair." I'm going to pour some blood in his eye for an advantage.
A pulled punch will stop a confrontation much more decisively than a slap. Slapping is an insult and could cause the agitator to continue for sake of pride.
Pull an accurate punch on a guy and he's much more likely to think, "That guy could have punched me full on and ****ed me up. But, he didn't. I'd better check myself before he ****s me up."
Slap a guy and even if it is a good one, his pride may be saying, "This guy just slapped me, I can't let this go."
To gain compliance, pull a punch. Better yet, land a good strike and end it before it begins. Just make sure the strike is on par with the issue.
Why is it that the people that train in BJJ (blow job jujitsu) think they are so damn tough? All I ever see is them tapping out in the ring. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good MMA match as well as anyone else. But BJJ is about as practical on the street as any traditional martial art, which means, it's not very practical. Martial arts, including BJJ, were designed for ritualized combat. Personal defense on the street is not ritualized combat.
In all seriousness, I spent YEARS as a teen beating on a makiwara board, my hands and knuckles were one big knot of scar tissue. And guess what happened during one of my brief, violent encounters? A punch to the head left me with a useless hand. Thankfully, I didn't need to transition to an edged weapon or a gun to end the fight, because I would have been done. I've had to really work hard at unlearning the years of martial arts that my father (and others) taught me so that I could better defend myself. Open hand techniques, for me, are only to make room to escape the attack, or to transition to a more deadly weapon at hand.
BTW, I guarantee you that if George (or any of his MCS alumni for that matter) slap you, you won't be insulted or even thinking about being insulted, or even really thinking :D
Lots of people have weighed in on this subject causing good conversation. The problem with many martial arts it becomes a religion, and anyone that says something against your religion or suggests something that is in conflict with your religion's teaching is automatically thought to be a heretic instead of a just a free thinker. When I look at martial arts I prefer to do two things-
One, seeing what they have in common with what I already do.
Two, look at the environment where it was created and consider whether or not it will transfer to my application.
No matter how much time and money you spend studying something cannot make it right or wrong.
If slapping works, or you think it will work for you then use it. If not then don't. Based on my experience, expertise, and research I believe it to be a legitimate combative tool.
Dirk Williams
11-16-09, 11:59
been following this thread for a few days. Gone back and read and re-read many posts. Very informative good stuff. I went out to the local national park and used their training room dummy to practice what you guys are talking about.
Impressive results, amazed at the power that could be generated and the lack of my hand hurting after applying your instruction. Thank you for a great tool to add to the belt.
Dirk.
photosniper- Good job on insulting BJJ.:rolleyes:
I guess you forgot to read the part where I mentioned I also train in Muay Thai. Between the two I think I have stand up and ground covered.
All you ever see is them tapping out? Do you actually follow MMA? Sounds to me like a BJJ guy tapped you and you can't let it go.
Yeah, BJJ isn't any good. It is only trained in by 99% of the MMA fighters. They would never use it if it worked. Doesn't work on the street? What a joke. Many of the techniques translate directly.
Is BJJ the end all, be-all? No. No one martial art is. To be ready for most situations one most incorporate several styles. But, if I had to pick one single art to train in, BJJ would be it. Most idiots can punch, but not go to the ground.
Muay Thai- Effective. Good stand up discipline.
Mercop- If you have a technique that works, good on you. I would choose another technique. That's why cross training is so fun. One gets to experience other styles and techniques. Maybe one day we can train together.
While you're slapping me, I'll be trying for a heel hook.:p
Train safe.
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 15:26
The very few times I have gone upside somebody's head with a slap resulted in some pretty interesting bruising that almost instantly effected my ability to form a fist afterward. Basically ended up with bruises at the middle and ring finger metacarpal joints, on the inside of the middle knuckle joints, and in the middle of my palm which all together made it very painful to clench my hand into a fist and continue striking.
This is the reason I tense my fingers together until it forms a slight curve... The meat(muscles) of the palm and fingers impact before the bones do... Throwing a flat open hand, open finger slap could very well lead to more damage to yourself and less to them... not only from impact but from snagged fingers...
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 15:59
photosniper- Good job on insulting BJJ.:rolleyes:
I guess you forgot to read the part where I mentioned I also train in Muay Thai. Between the two I think I have stand up and ground covered.
All you ever see is them tapping out? Do you actually follow MMA? Sounds to me like a BJJ guy tapped you and you can't let it go.
Yeah, BJJ isn't any good. It is only trained in by 99% of the MMA fighters. They would never use it if it worked. Doesn't work on the street? What a joke. Many of the techniques translate directly.
Is BJJ the end all, be-all? No. No one martial art is. To be ready for most situations one most incorporate several styles. But, if I had to pick one single art to train in, BJJ would be it. Most idiots can punch, but not go to the ground.
Muay Thai- Effective. Good stand up discipline.
Mercop- If you have a technique that works, good on you. I would choose another technique. That's why cross training is so fun. One gets to experience other styles and techniques. Maybe one day we can train together.
While you're slapping me, I'll be trying for a heel hook.:p
Train safe.
This just in... "MMA" is not actuality... Pain, submission, rules, morals,laws, size, strength are moot in a violent situation.
A sociopath or sherm head is not going to respond to a rear naked or kimura like you are trained people should respond... They will stab you to death with a broken arm....plain and simple. While you are working a heel hook or some other compliance maneuver, they are in-discriminately reaching for the .25 auto in thier pants to shoot you in the face with. MMA is great, the athletes it produces are superb... but you are talking about a social art and not that which pertains to war. Someone just release from Prison is not going to play your game. At that moment it is a matter of who is the better predator and overall, the better killer.
They kill for a living in prison, with thier hands... Most of us on the outside, do not.
You better be training to be as unfair and as violent as possible....Not training under a social blanket in which pain and compliance are the governing factors.
Muay thai is great as well, if used in the context of war... and not sport. It is very dominant and powerful and much striking can be done outside the opponents peripheral vision by ambush... You ahve to mold it this way and not the way you see it day to day.
I have trained both BJJ and Muay Thai... Lets just say aspects of muay thai are more applicable in combat and BJJ is no longer of impotance to my training... Shaolin Chin Na is a more practical route...
Recently, a great BJJ practicioner(black belt?) here hung up his Gi and joined the San Diego Bujinkan Association due to an altercation involving multiple opponents(un-noticed until the bottle came out)...Apparently he was in a "streetfight"(barfight) and he had the upper hand on his opponent initially by putting a "lock" on him...I think it was a choke of some sort... Buddies didnt like it and decided to open thier beer over his head...then jumped him.
He decided to take up ninjutsu after...
Your postition on training is irrelevant in mortal a-social combat...
I apologize if I seem like an ass or like I am busting your balls... Its not about what you train but how it practically relates to actual a-socal combat...
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 16:30
Regarding punches...
It was previously stated that one should line thier hard parts up against the opponents soft parts... to this I agree.
Punches work very well and even better if the structure of it is sound all the way down to the feet... Bruce Lee revolutionized his punching by simply turinng the fist clockwise so that the knuckles run verticle rather than the normal horizontal way...He also punched from the foot, through the leg to the hip, up the body and out of the fist. He proved the devastating power behind this, consistently. His punching was so refined that he could devestate with only an inch of room to trave from fist to target.
Keeping with Bruce Lees method...Now take the elasticity out of it(do not retract)... keep the structure alligned (elbows close to torso) and put the entire body weight behind it without retracting the strike... Punch through the target and beyond, continue natural rotation and continue agression... I never let my arms fully extend to elbow lock and my knuckles always remain verticle.
I do not disclude punching but there is a good way and a bad way to punch... I prefer forearms and elbows since most bones will break under them and its easier to get a sound structure and full body weight behind them when driving to the target and through it....
I always target organs when I punch and leave punches for the torso and pelvic area...
Hammer fists are more applicable in other areas as well as normal punching areas so they pull double duty...
BL- How is my position on training irrelevant? Are you aware of my training? I train for real world applications.
Hammer fists could be useful. Elbows and knees- Great if I'm trying to f*** someone/some people up. Not good if I'm trying to gain compliance.
As far as a BJJ black belt hanging up his gi b/c he caught an ass whipping; means nothing. Maybe he wasn't training for the street. Royce had his ass handed to him by Hughes b/c he wasn't training standup. But look at Renzo or Rickson-great standup games.
Some of the best standup guys have BJJ belts as their primary system: Rua, the Nogs, Silva, etc.
Multiple attacker scenarios and weapon scenarios must be trained for if one expects to be ready for any/all situations.
Why always target organs for punches? If you're in the mix then a punch to the face, throat, or neck can debilitate the opposition.
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 17:07
BL- How is my position on training irrelevant? Are you aware of my training? I train for real world applications.
Hammer fists could be useful. Elbows and knees- Great if I'm trying to f*** someone/some people up. Not good if I'm trying to gain compliance.
As far as a BJJ black belt hanging up his gi b/c he caught an ass whipping; means nothing. Maybe he wasn't training for the street. Royce had his ass handed to him by Hughes b/c he wasn't training standup. But look at Renzo or Rickson-great standup games.
Some of the best standup guys have BJJ belts as their primary system: Rua, the Nogs, Silva, etc.
Multiple attacker scenarios and weapon scenarios must be trained for if one expects to be ready for any/all situations.
Why always target organs for punches? If you're in the mix then a punch to the face, throat, or neck can debilitate the opposition.
Not irrelevant entirely but on the combatives course that this train started on....Yes!
Only becuase I observe constant reference to social means and social situations.
I also observe some shady advice as far as who slaps are designated for...
I fail to see a clear distinction between the sharks and the guppies...
I fail to see a clear distinction between a-social and social...
If you train for "combat" in the "real world" or the "streets" great... rock on with your cock on..I have not observed you or your training in action... I have nothing to comment on your physical prowess or how good a "fighter" you are...
I am onl;y commenting on what you say in your posts and how you relate social mediums and situations with combatives... To me, there is nothing social about combatives... it is not the same animal as combat-sports...
QuickStrike
11-16-09, 20:16
I am onl;y commenting on what you say in your posts and how you relate social mediums and situations with combatives... To me, there is nothing social about combatives... it is not the same animal as combat-sports...
Depends on your outlook as a competitor during a sporting match. Aggression, reflexes and technique and other physical conditioning factors translate REALLY well.
Do not think people who train in sport combat can't conceal a shank, or will forget how to strike the groin, eyes. Or gang up/sneak up on people, etc..
Face to face, and hand to hand, their superior reflexes and conditioning will likely bring an easy win.
Of course, I'm talking mostly about non-kata/forms systems here.
Guys like Igor Vovchanchyn or Pele Jose Landi would be great fighters outside of the ring/cage:
Hey, Igor DOES use palm strikes when not wearing gloves! Mercop is right, palm strikes are awesome. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A8Eg0hLlLc&feature=PlayList&p=49436326B55426EF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zli26-gr6o4
Just a quick note on BJJ, there is a cop that I train with. Really good ground game. He uses the same tactics in the gym and on the street; he had to roll up a BG the other day. So yes, BJJ is practical in a real world setting. I am sure that there are others that have stories where BJJ was not effective. It is all about how you train and your body type. My former Sifu called it martial style. You need to find your own. As George said, the "religious" mindset needs to die out. Cross train, find out what works for you ditch the stuff that does not and hone your skills in what does. But come on guys, don't bag on a discipline just because you don't like it or it has not worked for you. Let’s get back to the spirit of the thread, suggest the things from your training you think others might benefit from..........unless you follow the way of the Ostrich, no sticking your head in the sand!! You know you laughed at that one, its ok. I won’t tell :D
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 21:47
Depends on your outlook as a competitor during a sporting match. Aggression, reflexes and technique and other physical conditioning factors translate REALLY well.
Do not think people who train in sport combat can't conceal a shank, or will forget how to strike the groin, eyes. Or gang up/sneak up on people, etc..
Face to face, and hand to hand, their superior reflexes and conditioning will likely bring an easy win.
Of course, I'm talking mostly about non-kata/forms systems here.
Guys like Igor Vovchanchyn or Pele Jose Landi would be great fighters outside of the ring/cage:
Hey, Igor DOES use palm strikes when not wearing gloves! Mercop is right, palm strikes are awesome. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A8Eg0hLlLc&feature=PlayList&p=49436326B55426EF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zli26-gr6o4
I call this domesticated violence... every punch, lock and kick sends the message that "I dont want to kill you" ... They are free and clear from violence in the form of the intention of inflicting injury... They get in the ring and they play the lottery on non-specific targets creating non-specific trauma until one gets lucky and wins... Much different from a planned ambush in which a specific target is accessed followed by specific trauma...
These guys are good at what they do and I am sure they can handle a certain level of UNARMED confrontation "outside the ring"...But their path is set and thier training reflects it. I trained in the fashion described above for many years and became very good at what I do. I realized my training was missing the most important things. The knowledge and use of labor saving devices... knowledge of the anatomy and its weaknesses...the knowledge of targets and thier non cognitive spinal reflex...an asocial environment where causing a violent effect-chain is king... Unfair, unconventional, assymetrical combatives and the necessity to habituate violence...
Those guys may beat me in a fair fight if I play the bigger, stronger faster lottery... With rules, that guy always trumps the slower,weaker, smaller guy.... That is until you throw out the rules and pull out the tools... then all men are created equal... A target is a target no matter what your prowess or stature is... all men are equal in anatomical weakness... Some just need a little more force to penetrate their mass.
Being the better predator is a 24/7/365 job... there are no breaks or lapses. You dont go in and out, back and forth.... You either habituate violence in your training or you domesticate it... there can be no luke warm when all you have is your gross motor functions to default to under duress. It comes down to making a choice sport(reality) or combat(actuality)... It shouldnt have to take a life changing experience or two to get you off the fence. It took a friend or two dying for it to sink in with me...
Dont get me wrong, there is something useful in everything wether its Wing TSun or greco-roman wrestling... always keep your cup half full...if it overflows, get a bigger cup or maybe a bucket....;)
photosniper
11-16-09, 23:00
Well said Black Lion.
There is a time and place for BJJ and other "sport" combatives. Fighting for your life on the street is not one of them.
Going to the ground in a real-life violent conflict is the worse place to be, whether or not you've trained with Gracie. Unlike the octagon, the street is unforgiving, where parking blocks, cement, broken bottles and other hazards wait to jam, cut or stab into your body while you're rolling around trying to get a rear-naked choke. Besides that, unlike an opponent in the ring, the guy you are fighting wants to kill you and won't try to put you in a submission, he is going to smash, gouge, stab or shoot you while you're trying to get a full mount.
BL- Maybe I am not making myself clear. There is no difference b/w training in the dojo, gravel parking lot, or pavement(for me). It is all about being the predator. There are generally two types of people: predator and prey.
I can use BJJ on the street quite successfully, and have been forced to. I feel that some of the posters here have never trained with a quality BJJ instructor and therefore do not know what this entails. BJJ does not only deal with groundwork. I have been fortunate enough to have excellent instructors that have covered standup, takedowns, and groundwork.
Takedowns could be devastating if applied on the street in a situation where you are trying to inflict maximum possible damage in the shortest amt. of time. Anyone reading this that has practiced takedowns knows this. I can easily get someone I am hip tossing several feet in the air and then slam them onto the pavement, dirt, gravel, etc. with their head slamming the sh** out of the ground. Am I going for a hip toss if I do not know what he has in his hands? No. I would also be aware if I don't toss quickly, the POS may have time to poke my eyes, fishhook, etc. I can shoot my hips in quickly after a feint or misdirection to give me the split second I need for the setup. This is simply an example of when training in the dojo translates directly to the street. Obviously there are many more.
However, one must realize the time and place for each tactic.
This is where I feel the thread has been misread or simply some people do not understand this.
I am not going to slap someone on the street. If I am forced to engage, then it is going to be much more vicious. As BL said, elbows and knees are devastating if one knows how to properly execute them. If I am trying to gain compliance, then slapping(for me ) is not the way to go. I'll go with directed, pulled punches. Can slapping work? Possibly, depending upon the situation.
The problem I see with many that train in the dojo is that they have not developed the mindset for the street. They may say they train that way, but...
I use to train with a bad MF that only weighed 140lbs. wet. Great stand up and ground. One Sat. morn. free cage time, he came in with a black eye and a roughed up face. Some drunk kicked his ass. He did not have the mindset to take the guy. No doubt he could have if he had had his head on right.
Training in the gym, dojo, etc. is not the same as street fighting. But, these skills can easily translate if one is aware of the limitations of certain techniques and remembers they are not sparring in class. Two different beasts.
But one can train everyday, not have the right mindset(predator/prey), and get thumped in the real world.
BLACK LION
11-17-09, 13:06
Well said Black Lion.
There is a time and place for BJJ and other "sport" combatives. Fighting for your life on the street is not one of them.
Going to the ground in a real-life violent conflict is the worse place to be, whether or not you've trained with Gracie. Unlike the octagon, the street is unforgiving, where parking blocks, cement, broken bottles and other hazards wait to jam, cut or stab into your body while you're rolling around trying to get a rear-naked choke. Besides that, unlike an opponent in the ring, the guy you are fighting wants to kill you and won't try to put you in a submission, he is going to smash, gouge, stab or shoot you while you're trying to get a full mount.
Good points.
I always ask myself this and I ask others to do the same....
Will your training today benefit you tonight when your life or that of someone under your protection is on the line??? Has your training afforded you the mindset, intent and physical ability to get in there and get the job done???
Is your mind and body trained as a weapon of destruction in which your goal in conflict is to erradicate any existence of a threat using any means necessary???
Can you get over your fear, turn it to anger and use the God given concoction to get in there "hip to hip" and blow right through them???
What most train in Jujistu stops them before the pathological limit is exceeded. Which is before real injury and trauma begins.
An arm bar is not a joint break... A choke is not a CNS deactivation...
When your life is on the line you need to either deny motor function by tearing and breaking the body. Or deny use of the body by shutting of the brain itself...
The whole goal is to deny function by injuring them, becuase while they are busy howling over a collapsed clavicle and a hyperextended knee, you are busy shutting down other areas... Or, shutting of thier accomplices...
Should you be able to fight on the ground?? Sure, you fight to get on your feet if you find yourself compromised in that way. The ground is only your friend when you are using it as a blunt object on your opposition(nothing hits harder than mother earth coupled with gravity). You are supposed to get out of compromising positions with the intent to compromise the threat...not stay and fight with the compromise in hopes something will change. If you cant INJURE them, dont plan on changing anything. As long as they can think and move, they can kill you.
Deny them function or pay the price.
BLACK LION
11-17-09, 13:10
BL- Maybe I am not making myself clear. There is no difference b/w training in the dojo, gravel parking lot, or pavement(for me). It is all about being the predator. There are generally two types of people: predator and prey.
I can use BJJ on the street quite successfully, and have been forced to. I feel that some of the posters here have never trained with a quality BJJ instructor and therefore do not know what this entails. BJJ does not only deal with groundwork. I have been fortunate enough to have excellent instructors that have covered standup, takedowns, and groundwork.
Takedowns could be devastating if applied on the street in a situation where you are trying to inflict maximum possible damage in the shortest amt. of time. Anyone reading this that has practiced takedowns knows this. I can easily get someone I am hip tossing several feet in the air and then slam them onto the pavement, dirt, gravel, etc. with their head slamming the sh** out of the ground. Am I going for a hip toss if I do not know what he has in his hands? No. I would also be aware if I don't toss quickly, the POS may have time to poke my eyes, fishhook, etc. I can shoot my hips in quickly after a feint or misdirection to give me the split second I need for the setup. This is simply an example of when training in the dojo translates directly to the street. Obviously there are many more.
However, one must realize the time and place for each tactic.
This is where I feel the thread has been misread or simply some people do not understand this.
I am not going to slap someone on the street. If I am forced to engage, then it is going to be much more vicious. As BL said, elbows and knees are devastating if one knows how to properly execute them. If I am trying to gain compliance, then slapping(for me ) is not the way to go. I'll go with directed, pulled punches. Can slapping work? Possibly, depending upon the situation.
The problem I see with many that train in the dojo is that they have not developed the mindset for the street. They may say they train that way, but...
I use to train with a bad MF that only weighed 140lbs. wet. Great stand up and ground. One Sat. morn. free cage time, he came in with a black eye and a roughed up face. Some drunk kicked his ass. He did not have the mindset to take the guy. No doubt he could have if he had had his head on right.
Training in the gym, dojo, etc. is not the same as street fighting. But, these skills can easily translate if one is aware of the limitations of certain techniques and remembers they are not sparring in class. Two different beasts.
But one can train everyday, not have the right mindset(predator/prey), and get thumped in the real world.
BJJ is an effective combative ... do not get me wrong. Not as trained in "MMA" or the commercialized version...But , effective. Also, its not a self contained failsafe but an enhancement to a "continuing education"...
it IS effective if:
Exceeding the pathological limit is trained and stressed consistently. Until you know ultimate force you dont know compliance force...
Injury/ causing effect is the number one goal.
"Takedowns" are trained as dumps and drops where the earth and gravity are used as blunt objects...
I trained BJJ and rode its shirttails for a minute with the impression that is was hot shyt. I quickly and easily found unconventional means around BJJ expertise...
I also found myself in hot water if I wanted to take on a skilled BJJ practitioner in a fair fight.
the_fallguy
11-17-09, 13:12
6933, with all due respect you make it clear to me that you don't know what you don't know.
I've had experience with Brazilian jiujitsu and even some muay thai, along with hayastan grappling, boxing, karate, kali, silat, etc.. They are all fine if you have a mutual combatant (and a combative mindset), but they also have their shortcomings.
It sounds like you have the mentality of "playing through the pain", and that's a good thing, but it doesn't really work that well in real life circumstances. When your hand is broken and unresponsive, all the will power in the world won't make your fist close again (if your muscles and tendons have no solid structure to pull against, your fist literally can't close). I have experienced this twice, and it sucks. I also got to the point where I was transferring enough energy into a bag or mitt during a punch to violently fold my wrist if it wasn't wrapped, and that was with a healthy and fully functional fist. Try hitting the way you're used to when you can't fully close your fist and see what happens to your wrist then...
Now I am assuming that you are on this forum because you are a firearms enthusiast in some form or another. A broken hand or dislocated knuckle won't allow you to get a good grip on a pistol. Even if you are lucky enough to have a functional trigger finger, there is an increased chance that your pistol will stove pipe due to the less than optimal grip. There is also a much higher chance that you will foul your draw.
Please understand that I have been punched, kicked, elbowed and kneed in the head, and I can honestly say that the strike that has disoriented me the most in my training career was a slap to the ear. It felt like I was waking up from too little sleep, and I couldn't get my body to work like I knew it should.
If you still have doubts, try two experiments: let any four year old punch you anywhere on your body as hard as they want, and then let the same four year old slap your ear as hard as they want to, and see which one cause the most damage. Then try punching a concrete wall as hard as you can, and slap the same wall. Which has the greater transfer of energy? Keep in mind that you have been conditioning yourself to pull your punches since the first time you hit something hard and it hurt (whether you realize this or not, this is the case).
I'm not saying that muay thai and bjj aren't very beneficial to learning how to protect yourself, but they definitely have limits, and there tools that are more advantageous in an immediate unprovoked, violent encounter. If you disagree, that's your perogotive. It's your life and you will pay the consequences. The same can be said about me and mine. I hope neither one of us ever have to find out.
BLACK LION
11-17-09, 13:35
6933, with all due respect you make it clear to me that you don't know what you don't know.
I've had experience with Brazilian jiujitsu and even some muay thai, along with hayastan grappling, boxing, karate, kali, silat, etc.. They are all fine if you have a mutual combatant (and a combative mindset), but they also have their shortcomings.
It sounds like you have the mentality of "playing through the pain", and that's a good thing, but it doesn't really work that well in real life circumstances. When your hand is broken and unresponsive, all the will power in the world won't make your fist close again (if your muscles and tendons have no solid structure to pull against, your fist literally can't close). I have experienced this twice, and it sucks. I also got to the point where I was transferring enough energy into a bag or mitt during a punch to violently fold my wrist if it wasn't wrapped, and that was with a healthy and fully functional fist. Try hitting the way you're used to when you can't fully close your fist and see what happens to your wrist then...
Now I am assuming that you are on this forum because you are a firearms enthusiast in some form or another. A broken hand or dislocated knuckle won't allow you to get a good grip on a pistol. Even if you are lucky enough to have a functional trigger finger, there is an increased chance that your pistol will stove pipe due to the less than optimal grip. There is also a much higher chance that you will foul your draw.
Please understand that I have been punched, kicked, elbowed and kneed in the head, and I can honestly say that the strike that has disoriented me the most in my training career was a slap to the ear. It felt like I was waking up from too little sleep, and I couldn't get my body to work like I knew it should.
If you still have doubts, try two experiments: let any four year old punch you anywhere on your body as hard as they want, and then let the same four year old slap your ear as hard as they want to, and see which one cause the most damage. Then try punching a concrete wall as hard as you can, and slap the same wall. Which has the greater transfer of energy? Keep in mind that you have been conditioning yourself to pull your punches since the first time you hit something hard and it hurt (whether you realize this or not, this is the case).
I'm not saying that muay thai and bjj aren't very beneficial to learning how to protect yourself, but they definitely have limits, and there tools that are more advantageous in an immediate unprovoked, violent encounter. If you disagree, that's your perogotive. It's your life and you will pay the consequences. The same can be said about me and mine. I hope neither one of us ever have to find out.
You make some excellent points BTW.
FG- I'm not sure what your post is intending to convey. It seems you are saying no combative art is useful b/c no one is the end all, be all.
Pleaase enlighten us as to which arts are more conducive to real world situations. I think you do not know that of which you speak for one simple reason: it's is not the art necessarily, it is the way one trains and the mindset.
As far as punching vs. slapping a wall: the example has no place in this discussion. I am not going to punch or slap a wall. Did you even read, or understand, my post? I was quite clear about choosing the right tactic for the right situation. But as far as transferring energy, the punch will be more effective. It is the same principle as a woman in heels vs. a woman wearing tennis shoes. The heel(of the high heeled shoe) will penetrate further into the ground than the heel of a running shoe. Simple physics my college prof. drilled into me. F=MA. The punch has the least surface area(high heel) and will deliver more force into a smaller area. The slap dissipates the energy over a wider area.
I would much rather be slapped in the ear than punched in the nose. Period.
Blood pouring out of a nose can cause severe probs. for the sufferer such as difficulty breathing, disturbance of vision, and choking. Slapping the ear, it hurts, poss. rupturing the eardrum, other than that...
Not sure where your example of not being able to shoot a gun figures into this. I'll assume you have not been instructed in off hand shooting.
Pay the consequences? I have mixed it up from the Carribbean, to NOLA, to many other places to small to name("lucky" enough to be where disasters occurred). My styles have served me well in multiple scenarios. They have allowed me to dominate and also to not take as bad an ass beating as could have been. I have learned there is always a situation in which anyone can be beaten. Including me. I've taken my fair share. Hell, I use to train with a guy much smaller that could routinely whip me.
If slapping was so destructive, we'd be seeing more of it in the cage. Would you rather be slapped in the ear or punched in the ear?
Not knowing what I don't know? The mark of any good fighter, shooter, doctor, etc. is knowing what you don't know. That is why we train continuously and don't say, "I know it all."
Let me state for the record I am not saying BJJ, or Muay Thai, are the end all be alls. But if I had to choose two. I am also not posting here to stir the pot, I am simply relating my personal experiences; nothing more. What works for one may not work for others(diff. instructor abilities, personal abilities, mindset, training availability, etc.)
I am not trying to denigrate anyone or any style. If my tone comes across as poor, forgive me. Stayed up all night watching the meteor shower.
Too bad we can't all get together and train.
Train safe.
BLACK LION
11-17-09, 15:05
Let me put it into this perspective...
If you cannot affectuate a strike on tree(naturally resembles skeletal structure) with that particular medium it is not practical in real world conditions... That is what makes sense about the above posts where he compared slapping(palm strike) to a wall and a punch of the same force. I can punch a tree and pay a price. How hefty a price depends on the force behind the punch. I can drive my entire body weight behind a palm strike, fore arm or elbow to the same tree without any damage to myself and I can continue as desired.
People get happy when they hit a heavy bag or focus mits or a partner holding a pad and see pronounced movements. This is not relative to actuality since people are not bags... Ther are semi soft matter compounded about a hard skeletal structure... You hit a human like a bag and hit the wrong spot.. U R phucked...
Check out that feed from Pride where a simple MT shin kick impacted the opponents shin and the kickers shin collapsed under him... eeewwwwweeee.
That why I tell the guys I train with to negate the bag and find a good tree. it will help yuo realize quickly what meduims are effective and what is hype. An aside to that is if you can get that tree to react to your stimulus...imagine what a human body will do.
QuickStrike
11-17-09, 15:09
*snip*
It's not exactly rocket science to do any of that. *I just edited out a bunch of creative examples*.
Not hard to go "hands on" in a dirty way when one really needs to. The only difference is, it being habitual for them, and last ditch for us. Just abiding the law (hopefully) and all that.
Don't give em so much credit!
Holy de-railed BATMAN! Sorry Mercop.
the_fallguy
11-17-09, 15:16
FG- I'm not sure what your post is intending to convey. It seems you are saying no combative art is useful b/c no one is the end all, be all.
You are using what is called an either/or argument by jumping to the conclusion above. I don't know how you could logically come to that conclusion. That is not at all what I am trying to convey, and I think that is failry obvious to anyone looking at my post subjectively.
Pleaase enlighten us as to which arts are more conducive to real world situations. I think you do not know that of which you speak for one simple reason: it's is not the art necessarily, it is the way one trains and the mindset.
I agree that training methods and mindset are the important factors. It's funny that you say that, yet you seem a little stubborn in accepting the possibility that your training methods have certain limitations that could be supplemented or replaced by more appropriate choices in relevance to the subject at hand, which is combatives). There is no end all and be all "art" in my experience (except maybe the art of awareness, quick critical thinking skills, a lack of hesitation to close violently if necessary, and good pair of running shoes when applicable). By training in any organized art or sport, you train yourself to react to certain stimuli, but you also impose certain limitations to your reactions and responses.
I tried to demonstrate in my previous post that mindset runs into certain physical limitations that can result from a poor choice of technique or response. It doesn't mean the fight is over, but it severely limits your ability to further respond.
As far as punching vs. slapping a wall: the example has no place in this discussion. I am not going to punch or slap a wall. Did you even read, or understand, my post? I was quite clear about choosing the right tactic for the right situation. But as far as transferring energy, the punch will be more effective. It is the same principle as a woman in heels vs. a woman wearing tennis shoes. The heel(of the high heeled shoe) will penetrate further into the ground than the heel of a running shoe. Simple physics my college prof. drilled into me. F=MA. The punch has the least surface area(high heel) and will deliver more force into a smaller area. The slap dissipates the energy over a wider area.
Obviously, you didn't try the experiment, so I will have a difficult time relating its relevance to the subject at hand. Your description of physics is spot on, but you aren't putting it into context correctly. There are other limiting factors involved, such as the innate self protective measures in your subconscious that will make you pull your punches if you have ever injured yourself during training. This severely affects your ability to penetrate and follow through with a punch.
I would much rather be slapped in the ear than punched in the nose. Period.
This makes me think you've never been slapped in the ear...
Blood pouring out of a nose can cause severe probs. for the sufferer such as difficulty breathing, disturbance of vision, and choking. Slapping the ear, it hurts, poss. rupturing the eardrum, other than that...
Now I know you haven't been slapped in the ear. I have had my teeth chipped and broken, and even had my nose broken on one occasion but finished the fight. When I got my ear slapped I couldn't get my body to respond right.
Not sure where your example of not being able to shoot a gun figures into this. I'll assume you have not been instructed in off hand shooting.
Have you had much experience with scenario training or force on force training at 0 to 5 feet yet? When my hand was broken, it was damaged enough that I couldn't grasp anything. I'll simulate that in the next training session and try to employ a pistol under duress, but I am guessing it isn't going to go well for me if I can't maintain my distance from an antagonist. I'm sure it will slow things down at best.
Pay the consequences? I have mixed it up from the Carribbean, to NOLA, to many other places to small to name("lucky" enough to be where disasters occurred). My styles have served me well in multiple scenarios. They have allowed me to dominate and also to not take as bad an ass beating as could have been. I have learned there is always a situation in which anyone can be beaten. Including me. I've taken my fair share. Hell, I use to train with a guy much smaller that could routinely whip me.
I'm glad what you know has worked for you thus far. If you are interested in growing, take a look at what the others on this forum have to say about combatives.
If slapping was so destructive, we'd be seeing more of it in the cage. Would you rather be slapped in the ear or punched in the ear?
You also don't see throat biting, eye gouging, groin ripping or neck cranking. You don't see it in the cage, because the stuff happening in the cage is a game. There are rules that prohibit such techniques because it would be immoral and irresponsible to allow techniques that cause permanent physical injury or death in a sporting event.
Also, please understand that using MMA or any organized sporting event as a litmous test for fighting techniques or styles is very flawed at best. Both contestants are mutual combatants that have trained for weeks or months to face off under a predetermined set of rules that are designed to protect them. There are weight classes, protective gear and rest periods. It is not even a "fight" by my definition, as a fight only happens when at least one of the participants doesn't want to be there. It is more of a contest (don't get me wrong; it's hard as hell to compete, and you learn a lot about performing under duress and perseverance, and delivering force against a resistant opponent, but that's about where the usefulness ends in my experience).
Not knowing what I don't know? The mark of any good fighter, shooter, doctor, etc. is knowing what you don't know. That is why we train continuously and don't say, "I know it all."
Comparing a fight to MMA and not appreciating the anotomical and physical responses to slaps is what makes me thing that you don't quite grasp certain combative concepts yet (or that you aren't yet aware what you don't know). I'm not degrading you or picking at you. There are a lot of things that I don't understand or can't do. Sometimes I have to take a hit to my ego in training and discussion of tactics so I can improve. That's just how it is.
Let me state for the record I am not saying BJJ, or Muay Thai, are the end all be alls. But if I had to choose two. I am also not posting here to stir the pot, I am simply relating my personal experiences; nothing more. What works for one may not work for others(diff. instructor abilities, personal abilities, mindset, training availability, etc.)
I am not trying to denigrate anyone or any style. If my tone comes across as poor, forgive me. Stayed up all night watching the meteor shower.
Too bad we can't all get together and train.
Train safe.
It's good to test our experiences and tactics against the experiences of others. It should also be a little uncomfortable at times or we aren't really being tested or learning anything. I'm certainly not offended by your line of thinking. I know you are just trying to improve like the rest of us.
If we were all together in person we could simply say "show me", and it would either fly or crash. Unfortunately we don't have that opportunity, so we have to use some discernment and base what is said on our own experiences, and with different backgrounds certain ideas are probably lost in translation.
The reason I said what I did earlier is that we may continue to disagree, but I can live with disagreement because I know that it is my life and my families lives that may pay for it if I'm wrong. For me there is no greater cost for failure, and I choose to do what I do based on that criteria. If you do the same, I can fully respect your choices given what is at stake, even if they aren't in line with mine.
the_fallguy
11-17-09, 15:27
Mercop, I really appreciate you post, and I very much agree. It has not been my intention to take this subject down a different bunny trail or make it a personal argument. I hope it hasn't come across this way.
BLACK LION
11-17-09, 16:29
G, a pleasure as always.
Please excuse my off track ranting.
We agree on the validity and practicality of utilizing open hand strikes in UNFAIR confrontation.
Gutshot John
11-17-09, 17:12
Mercop and Fallguy I very much appreciate your comments. As I'm increasingly looking towards blade and hand as more versatile and relevant for most self-defense. The following is only based on my experience.
I've trained in mix disciplines but I wouldn't call myself a hardcore practitioner mostly because few seemed as effective as "street fighting" until the advent of MMA. Judo was probably the most classic of the disciplines I studied when I spent some time growing up in Southern France in the early 1980s and with the Arab population there were some ugly street fights. We didn't really use guns or even knives, but fists, rocks and pipes can do significant damage. Most of the Arab kids trained heavily in boxing and were often to be respected. Getting in close and going to the ground/throws were invariably the best way to win.
I have been both punched in the nose (repeatedly) and slapped in the ear and while you can somewhat fight through the nose punch, a properly executed slap to the ear was not only incapacitating but ruptured my eardrum and has lead to a lifetime of hearing and inner ear problems. You can't walk straight, it's impossible to focus, trying to throw a decent punch is hard since maintaining balance is a function of the inner ear. Getting punched in the face is no fun, but in my experience a slap can be devastating.
I also saw a girl break a guy's nose with a slap. Guess who the guy was? (And no it wasn't like that, she was 7 and I was 8). :o
FG- Slapping is not prohibited in the cage. Once again, would you rather be punched in the ear or slapped?
I feel some are deliberately, or not, missing my point. I feel there are better and more effective strikes for combat. That's all. If we are talking about fighting on the street, a slap has much fewer applications than a strike that can end it at once or severely compromise the opponent. This is where I feel some are missing my point.
Is someone going to tell me that an elbow or knee to the head, properly delivered, is less effective than a slap? I don't mean this confrontationally, I mean it as in read on....
I understand the physiological responses to a slap. There are also physiological responses to getting punched, kicked, elbowed, or kneed. The previous four have more severe consequences. What is more effective in a fight? Slapping someone and then having them still up, or delivering a blow that knocks them out or silly? Yes, we all know KO's aren't that common but the possibility of a KO, and of the potential results of a well placed hard kick, punch, knee, or elbow, seems more effective in a fight than a slap than can incapacitate, but only to varying degrees.
So, let's say a slap can make one disoriented, interfere with coordination, and disrupt your fighting. That does not take that person out of the fight; for sure. A good punch, kick, elbow, or knee has the potential to take the person 100% out; as in KO'd or so f'ed up they will require extreme medical intervention. That person is out of the fight. I would rather use a technique that has the potential for taking the person out at once over a technique that will still allow a person to possibly stay in the fight.
If I am in a fight, especially with multiples, I am going for a technique that gives me the possibility of quick exits for my foes, not ones that may leave them able to pull it together and go after me again. The person you slapped may be out of it for a little bit, but if engaging multiples, while dealing with 1-2 others(or more) he will have time to recover and re-enter the fight. A decisive blow from a knee, elbow, punch, or kick has the potential to take that person out and allow you to no longer worry about him(her).
FG- I like your part about the running shoes. I advocate running from a fight if it all possible. Unforeseen consequences of a street fight can be life altering, life threatening, or life ending. Better to avoid the potentials.
Train safe.
I think there is a huge semantics problem in this thread.
A slap as described by its proponents doesn't mean a wimpy slap accross the face that you might get from someone who is challenging you to a duel.
I believe they mean something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQWMlRQfOc
or a cupped hand strike that follows similar body mechanics to a boxing hook, but does not carry the risk of damaging your hand from a fist.
the_fallguy
11-17-09, 18:39
FG- Slapping is not prohibited in the cage. Once again, would you rather be punched in the ear or slapped?
Slapping to the ear is an intentional attempt to casue permanent injury, and is prohibited in MMA. I have been both slapped in the ear and punched in the ear. I would unequivocally prefer to be punched.
I feel some are deliberately, or not, missing my point. I feel there are better and more effective strikes for combat. That's all. If we are talking about fighting on the street, a slap has much fewer applications than a strike that can end it at once or severely compromise the opponent. This is where I feel some are missing my point.
There are more effective strikes in COMBAT. Slapping is one of them. It seems that because I disagree with you, you think I don't understand. That is not the case.
Is someone going to tell me that an elbow or knee to the head, properly delivered, is less effective than a slap? I don't mean this confrontationally, I mean it as in read on....
I understand the physiological responses to a slap. There are also physiological responses to getting punched, kicked, elbowed, or kneed. The previous four have more severe consequences. What is more effective in a fight? Slapping someone and then having them still up, or delivering a blow that knocks them out or silly? Yes, we all know KO's aren't that common but the possibility of a KO, and of the potential results of a well placed hard kick, punch, knee, or elbow, seems more effective in a fight than a slap than can incapacitate, but only to varying degrees.
You are still using the either/or argument here. I'm not telling you punching won't work. I'm definitely not telling you not to use elbows or knees. I'm trying to tell you that there are things that are more easily applied (like slapping) that will allow you to get the desired results without posing as much or a chance of injuring yourself. It is also easier to slap when you have a hand injury, are tired, or are on soft ground. I'm telling you - You don't know what you don't know here. I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational either, but I'm not going to agree with you if I believe you are wrong.
So, let's say a slap can make one disoriented, interfere with coordination, and disrupt your fighting. That does not take that person out of the fight; for sure. A good punch, kick, elbow, or knee has the potential to take the person 100% out; as in KO'd or so f'ed up they will require extreme medical intervention. That person is out of the fight. I would rather use a technique that has the potential for taking the person out at once over a technique that will still allow a person to possibly stay in the fight.
You are insinuating that you plan to take an attacker out with one strike. That is a "training scar" in my experience. That's like assuming that one shot will stop a determined attacker. You will have a higher success rate if you launch a fluid, continuous attack until the attacker is in the state that you deem necessary to refocus your attention (on escaping, restraining, or confronting another attacker, etc.). You may not like it, and it may not be conducive to your training style, but that is just the way it is (or at least the way it appears to me, whether I like it or not).
BTW, compared to a punch, a slap to the ear or a brachial plexus area has great potential to do sufficient damage to deter a threat.
If I am in a fight, especially with multiples, I am going for a technique that gives me the possibility of quick exits for my foes, not ones that may leave them able to pull it together and go after me again. The person you slapped may be out of it for a little bit, but if engaging multiples, while dealing with 1-2 others(or more) he will have time to recover and re-enter the fight. A decisive blow from a knee, elbow, punch, or kick has the potential to take that person out and allow you to no longer worry about him(her).
If you aren't basing your strategy for facing off with multiple opponents around employing a weapon or completely evading a potential confrontation, I don't think you will have a great deal of success no matter what you art you train in. Also, in my experience people don't hold still for a decisive blow. You don't have time to "get your head right" and you sure don't get to put yourself in a comfortable and familiar position if it is an unavoidable fight. You take what you can get and keep giving until you can escape.
FG- I like your part about the running shoes. I advocate running from a fight if it all possible. Unforeseen consequences of a street fight can be life altering, life threatening, or life ending. Better to avoid the potentials.
Train safe.
A lot of people give lip service to running, but how often do you train it? Do some scenario training and use it to see if you can outrun an attacker once he has decided to knife you. If you don't beat feet early, you might not get a chance. It most definitely is better to avoid potentials as you said. Put some training into the context of actual self defense situations and see what really works for you.
The funny thing is, I agree with Mercops initial post, but I am a contributor in allowing this thread to become more about a disagreement of techniques and styles. I think it is pretty clear where I stand. If you wish to debate this further, 6933, please PM me. I should have responded that way to your initial post in the first place.
FG- We're straight. I must not be getting my point across, you aren't seeing it, or we simply are going to have to agree to disagree. I have been slapped and punched in the ear and would prefer to be slapped. Maybe it's relative to the person being slapped. I seem to have a high tolerance for pain; luckily I can also tell when the pain represents real injury, on the brink of one, or just pain from something that won't be injury inducing. All my responses are with considering the possibility of a weapon coming into play. I have had my real world experiences, you've had yours. Obviously they have led to different strategies and conclusions. Both of us are going to go with what has worked for us in the past with an eye towards training for situations we have never encountered.
As far as a decisive blow, I agree, of course people don't hold still for that blow. I simply say why throw a blow that doesn't have the potential to take the person out completely through KO or complete incapacitation. I am NOT talking about waiting and biding time for the "killer" blow. I am just saying why not throw blows that can lead to this instead of a technique that does not have the potential to KO or completely incapacitate. I am not saying throw haymakers continuously; strike with the most effective strikes. Maybe we will simply agree to disagree as to what this is. Once again, what has worked for you and what has worked for me apparently differs.
I have trained extensively in the scenarios you suggest. I have simply come to different conclusions. I had the opportunity to discuss H2H with some former Delta's recently and the mindset was take the MF'er out, don't use techniques that in any way shape or form leave an opportunity for them to recover. I feel slapping falls into this category. If there is any real world application, I trust these guys to know what works. They do train BJJ extensively, BTW.
Love good discussions, feel free to PM me with any thoughts, criticisms, etc. If we can't take constructive debate, we suck.:p
We will just have to agree to disagree and hopefully can continue these discussions from time to time.
Train safe.
the_fallguy
11-17-09, 21:45
Well, I thought you would PM me with further discussion. I guess that I will take the bait.
FG- We're straight. I must not be getting my point across, you aren't seeing it, or we simply are going to have to agree to disagree. I have been slapped and punched in the ear and would prefer to be slapped. Maybe it's relative to the person being slapped. I seem to have a high tolerance for pain;
Pain or the tolerance there of has little to do with it. I look for an anatomical response regardless of whether it hurts. Think of it like a muay thai cut kick; if you land it right, the muscles spread, the nerve takes hard contact and the leg shuts down. It doesn't matter if it hurts or not, they can't put weight on it and become less effective. The same could be said in bjj. it doesn't matter if the heel hook hurts or not; if you rotate the heel with the knee trapped, the muscles, ligaments or tendons will separate somewhere. Now the bad guy can't close the distance with you as easily if you are able to separate and escape. If pain gets a favorable reaction, awesome. Just don't depend on it.
luckily I can also tell when the pain represents real injury, on the brink of one, or just pain from something that won't be injury inducing.
I thought this too until I had my elbow popped loose in an americana. It didn't hurt during the lock, it just made a sound like snapping your fingers and popped. The guy I was rolling with freaked and let go immediately(another training scar to watch out for). Coincidentally, I was able to finish three more rounds with him with the screwed up elbow, but I didn't fair too well.
All my responses are with considering the possibility of a weapon coming into play.
The whole thing drastically changes once weapons start coming into play. A triangle choke seems great until the bad guy pumps a pocket knife into your back, side, and leg multiple times. Hopefully you are spending time working towards getting your own weapon into play under duress.
I have had my real world experiences, you've had yours. Obviously they have led to different strategies and conclusions. Both of us are going to go with what has worked for us in the past with an eye towards training for situations we have never encountered.
Agreed. I will also listen to the folks who have good reasons for why they do things.
As far as a decisive blow, I agree, of course people don't hold still for that blow. I simply say why throw a blow that doesn't have the potential to take the person out completely through KO or complete incapacitation. I am NOT talking about waiting and biding time for the "killer" blow. I am just saying why not throw blows that can lead to this instead of a technique that does not have the potential to KO or completely incapacitate. I am not saying throw haymakers continuously; strike with the most effective strikes.
But a slap does have the potential to incapacitate. Did you not take what Gutshot John said into account? Remember that for a punch to knock someone out, it needs enough force (mass times acceleration) and follow through to cause sufficient whiplash to bounce their brain inside their skull (If you can do this with every punch you throw, you are far ahead of anyone I've ever trained with). Hitting this way, you also still run a greater risk of breaking your hand. You still haven't come to terms with this reality.
Maybe we will simply agree to disagree as to what this is. Once again, what has worked for you and what has worked for me apparently differs.
We might just have to disagree. I'm not sure how many ways I can repeat myself.
I have trained extensively in the scenarios you suggest. I have simply come to different conclusions.
That's possible, but isn't it also possible that you are letting your ego get in the way of common sense?
I had the opportunity to discuss H2H with some former Delta's recently and the mindset was take the MF'er out, don't use techniques that in any way shape or form leave an opportunity for them to recover. I feel slapping falls into this category. If there is any real world application, I trust these guys to know what works. They do train BJJ extensively, BTW.
The combative slap we have been debating (or the cupped hand blow) originated from guys like this. I am also aware that special forces use bjj. My first exposure to grappling was from a SEAL that studied Machado Jiu Jitsu. I am not debating the value of training in BJJ (although I did point out that it has its limitations). I am pointing out the misconceptions you have about slapping and its combative validity. BTW, Rickson Gracie was the first person I ever hear say to slap instead of punch in a street encounter.
Love good discussions, feel free to PM me with any thoughts, criticisms, etc. If we can't take constructive debate, we suck.:p
We will just have to agree to disagree and hopefully can continue these discussions from time to time.
I guess so. I don't have any ego invested in this. If you choose not to use slaps, then don't. I only continued this debate publicly so others can make an informed decision concerning combative slapping.
Train safe.
I would say that everyone has enough information to come to their own conclusion about this subject now. I think I'm done here unless Mercop has anything to add.
photosniper
11-17-09, 23:29
Some of you are missing out on one of the biggest points about Mercop's original post.
George conducts his classes so that you can leave the class at 5pm and defend yourself in a violent encounter on the way home. What he teaches is simple, but very effective. It's simple enough that my 13 yr old daughter can do it and have the same effect on the boogy man as I would (at least without punching him full of 9mm holes).
You can love your BJJ, muay thai, ju-jitsu, Ninjistu whatever, but the reality of it is, you will spend YEARS learning how to defend yourself in any Martial Arts system. The reason is that the instructors don't make any money if you aren't coming back week after week to do the same punches and kicks over and over.
Slapping is one of the most basic, self-defensive fundamentals. We learn to slap when we are infants and the basic idea doesn't change, George's technique just improves on it.
I apologize for taking this thread off-course with my bust on BJJ. I'll say it again like I have before when people dis George's tactics. Come out and take a class and then make an informed decision before spouting off.
Those of you who know my posting history here and on other forums know that I don't stir shit but somehow my posts often do. I guess I touch on lots of nerves.
My heart lies with traditional Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu since it is my core art. I don't now and never will teach it for money. I do teach it to family and some select others. There is a lot to it from the martial to healing applications and by not taking money to teach it I can choose and refuse to teach anyone who I don't believe has the right heart for it.
Here is my issue with Brazilian / Gracie Ju Jitsu. Ju Jitsu as I learned it is tri-phasic with strikes/kicks, take downs/throws, and ground control. This kind of resembles the normal progression of a fight. The basic principles are block/evade, misdirect, take down, stun, and control. From there anything is possible. Another thing that martial arts in general and my path have taught me is to be humble. I guess it is for that reason that I don't appreciate anyone putting their name in front of Ju Jitsu. So that is my problem with the Gracies. The way I see it your art gives to you, and anything you give back to it could never equal what you have received. I am not trying to convince anyone of my position, only to state it.
When I hear Ju Jitsu I will never think of anything sport oriented. That is what Judo is for and why in early Randori Ju Jitsu practitioners were not allowed to used their "tricks".
Everyone has a different level of fitness, wellness, and training. Everyone also has a right to self-defense. There is a need to understand anatomy, how attacks really occur, and what the "average" victim can accomplish under stress.
If you are reading this there is a fair chance that the energy you project when out and about may cause someone to pick a different target. But what about your parents, wife, and children. What about them. Out of everything you know, if you only had few hours to teach them how to defend themselves, out of everything you know, what would you show them? That is what my mindset is when I teach. Because everyday could be their last training day? The hardest thing is to prepare for an unknown event that has not parameters. This requires combative principles instead of specific techniques. - George
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 14:44
Mercop and Fallguy I very much appreciate your comments. As I'm increasingly looking towards blade and hand as more versatile and relevant for most self-defense. The following is only based on my experience.
I've trained in mix disciplines but I wouldn't call myself a hardcore practitioner mostly because few seemed as effective as "street fighting" until the advent of MMA. Judo was probably the most classic of the disciplines I studied when I spent some time growing up in Southern France in the early 1980s and with the Arab population there were some ugly street fights. We didn't really use guns or even knives, but fists, rocks and pipes can do significant damage. Most of the Arab kids trained heavily in boxing and were often to be respected. Getting in close and going to the ground/throws were invariably the best way to win.
I have been both punched in the nose (repeatedly) and slapped in the ear and while you can somewhat fight through the nose punch, a properly executed slap to the ear was not only incapacitating but ruptured my eardrum and has lead to a lifetime of hearing and inner ear problems. You can't walk straight, it's impossible to focus, trying to throw a decent punch is hard since maintaining balance is a function of the inner ear. Getting punched in the face is no fun, but in my experience a slap can be devastating.
I also saw a girl break a guy's nose with a slap. Guess who the guy was? (And no it wasn't like that, she was 7 and I was 8). :o
There is concrete proof to its effectiveness right there....
A ruptured eardrum is debilitating and often can be a life long problem and you are a testament to that.
Thank you for your post.
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 14:47
Some of you are missing out on one of the biggest points about Mercop's original post.
George conducts his classes so that you can leave the class at 5pm and defend yourself in a violent encounter on the way home. What he teaches is simple, but very effective. It's simple enough that my 13 yr old daughter can do it and have the same effect on the boogy man as I would (at least without punching him full of 9mm holes).
You can love your BJJ, muay thai, ju-jitsu, Ninjistu whatever, but the reality of it is, you will spend YEARS learning how to defend yourself in any Martial Arts system. The reason is that the instructors don't make any money if you aren't coming back week after week to do the same punches and kicks over and over.
Slapping is one of the most basic, self-defensive fundamentals. We learn to slap when we are infants and the basic idea doesn't change, George's technique just improves on it.
I apologize for taking this thread off-course with my bust on BJJ. I'll say it again like I have before when people dis George's tactics. Come out and take a class and then make an informed decision before spouting off.
A profound post... I agree wholeheartedly.
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 14:56
Those of you who know my posting history here and on other forums know that I don't stir shit but somehow my posts often do. I guess I touch on lots of nerves.
My heart lies with traditional Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu since it is my core art. I don't now and never will teach it for money. I do teach it to family and some select others. There is a lot to it from the martial to healing applications and by not taking money to teach it I can choose and refuse to teach anyone who I don't believe has the right heart for it.
Here is my issue with Brazilian / Gracie Ju Jitsu. Ju Jitsu as I learned it is tri-phasic with strikes/kicks, take downs/throws, and ground control. This kind of resembles the normal progression of a fight. The basic principles are block/evade, misdirect, take down, stun, and control. From there anything is possible. Another thing that martial arts in general and my path have taught me is to be humble. I guess it is for that reason that I don't appreciate anyone putting their name in front of Ju Jitsu. So that is my problem with the Gracies. The way I see it your art gives to you, and anything you give back to it could never equal what you have received. I am not trying to convince anyone of my position, only to state it.
When I hear Ju Jitsu I will never think of anything sport oriented. That is what Judo is for and why in early Randori Ju Jitsu practitioners were not allowed to used their "tricks".
Everyone has a different level of fitness, wellness, and training. Everyone also has a right to self-defense. There is a need to understand anatomy, how attacks really occur, and what the "average" victim can accomplish under stress.
If you are reading this there is a fair chance that the energy you project when out and about may cause someone to pick a different target. But what about your parents, wife, and children. What about them. Out of everything you know, if you only had few hours to teach them how to defend themselves, out of everything you know, what would you show them? That is what my mindset is when I teach. Because everyday could be their last training day? The hardest thing is to prepare for an unknown event that has not parameters. This requires combative principles instead of specific techniques. - George
That sums it up right there.
So in closing, maybe you should consider adding the slap to your striking repertoire.
I'm not MA/fight expert by any means, so take my thoughts as is; I use slaps as a diversion tactic to get the person attention directed at the slap to hide what follows, such as elbow strike to the face, punch to sternum, etc. I don't generally view the slap itself as going to have a great deal of power per se, but makes an excellent fast contact to follow up. Again, not an expert, during my own training, I find a slap is faster then anything else I can put forward. I try to work simple, yet (hopefully) effective groups of strikes I can employ quickly, such as:
Slap quickly left, while stepping in with right elbow strike
Slap right, sternum punch
slap left, throat chop or palm strike right
Using my (empty!) gun, I will group them, with drawing as part of the training.
Not being and experienced MA/combat fighter, I try to keep it KISS as possible, and be able to repeat the simple yet (hopefully) effective strike groups under stress that may or may not lead to drawing.
What's your - and or the groups - thoughts/opinions on that?
the_fallguy
12-07-09, 14:23
I don't put all of my eggs in one basket either. Similar to shooting double taps vs. shooting until the threat is nullified, it is unwise to use a single strike in hopes that it will resolve a situation.
As far as specific combinations go, a slap followed by elbows is one of my favorite ways to start. I personally believe that combatives is really built around employing a weapon, so I think you're on the right track.
If you haven't seen them yet, try checking out all of the material from Kelly McCann and ShivWorks, as well as Gabe Suarez and Marc Denny's Die Less Often series. They shed a lot of light on using weapons in close confrontations.
BLACK LION
12-07-09, 14:51
I feel that many people view a "slap" as swinging the weight of the arm with an open hand and making contact on non specific target areas such as the face or head. I feel that mmany people view it as a diversion, distraction, deterrence or some form of pain compliance.... It can be used that way but to me it is a waste of time which equates to life. By putting the entire body weight behind the palm of your hand and thrusting it through a specific target like the ear or the groin or the entire face, you get a much more deliberate and violent result...This will also yield a non-cognitive spinal response which will allow one to continue to compound additional trauma until the end goal/result is reached.
If you are not using your body weight and focusing on specific targets that are weak to an open hand then you are just playing the lotto and hoping to win big off a gamble.
I dont want this to sound the wrong way but you CAN literally kill someone or permanently disable them with the palm of your hand but if you do not know how to apply your body weight behind it and what anatomical targets are the most viable for that particular medium then you are basically flying blind with your life on the line....
This is an "in general" opinion and not directed towards any one individual....
BLACK LION
12-07-09, 15:08
I don't put all of my eggs in one basket either. Similar to shooting double taps vs. shooting until the threat is nullified, it is unwise to use a single strike in hopes that it will resolve a situation.
I agree... Violence is a chain of effects leading to an end result...It should never be considered one shot one kill, one stab one kill or one blunt force blow, etc.....
It must be considered and endless barrage of overwhelming aggressive actions until there is nothing left that can be considered a threat.
Its basically....Annihilation
Take care out there guys...
I don't put all of my eggs in one basket either. Similar to shooting double taps vs. shooting until the threat is nullified, it is unwise to use a single strike in hopes that it will resolve a situation.
As far as specific combinations go, a slap followed by elbows is one of my favorite ways to start. I personally believe that combatives is really built around employing a weapon, so I think you're on the right track.
If you haven't seen them yet, try checking out all of the material from Kelly McCann and ShivWorks, as well as Gabe Suarez and Marc Denny's Die Less Often series. They shed a lot of light on using weapons in close confrontations.
Thanx for the feedback. I have seen some of Gabe Suarez vids and such. Good stuff from what I can tell.
I feel that many people view a "slap" as swinging the weight of the arm with an open hand and making contact on non specific target areas such as the face or head.
Probably an issue of terminology? Perhaps it should simply be called an open handed strike? By slap, I'm meaning it ( I hope) as others have defined it here, which is not some mild swinging bitch slap to get their attention, but a strike using similar mechanics as a punch. I can't personally deliver quite the forces with it as I can a punch, but it's very fast and inside and part of a chain of events/strikes.
Hopefully that makes some sense. It's coming from a non MA/combat fighter, so my vocabulary is limited here. :cool:
Back in the day, Maybe 10 yrs I was taking Jeet Kuno Do from a local .Bruce Lee's Fighting style I even got to train in a class (150 bucks for a whole day)with Jesse Clover a 1st Gen Bruce Lee student.he worked with me on palm smashes to the face and then to follow with a eye gouging .
He also showed us that with a Upper cut to the jaw could Knock someone out.it was like a drawing a handgun from a holster move as you close the gap.and it really did not take as much force if placed right.
I was doing Loss prevention at a dept store then and used many palm slaps to the throat ,It was that move that I was able to get the Handcuffs on them as they gasp for air. and as i have read in some post a good open slap to the ears will do damage.
as Bruce lee always said there is not one move that will work on all ,But to be able to follow up with elbow strikes to the face during grappling .and adapt to your combative Moves
I have Only had to take one guys Knee out, when he pulled a lock blade on me and my supervisor .If was a fast and easy straight kick to the Knee cap.(I bet he still thinks about me to this day when it rains:D) the main thing is train and train.
The Army training I got in Hand to Hand was Ok ,But me and My DS worked on some of the Moves Iwas taught By Jesse Clover.I good read if you can find them is the Book By Bruce "the TAO of Jeet Kuno Do" Great thread guys I have been Learning a lot from Ya'll thanks
BLACK LION
12-07-09, 20:22
Probably an issue of terminology? Perhaps it should simply be called an open handed strike? By slap, I'm meaning it ( I hope) as others have defined it here, which is not some mild swinging bitch slap to get their attention, but a strike using similar mechanics as a punch. I can't personally deliver quite the forces with it as I can a punch, but it's very fast and inside and part of a chain of events/strikes.
Hopefully that makes some sense. It's coming from a non MA/combat fighter, so my vocabulary is limited here. :cool:
Wasnt trying to look like I was pointing any fingers or calling anyone out, I just used your post to elaborate more on the subject. I guess I am just pushing the fact that you CAN ruin a human or animals body by delivering a proper open handed strike ... strike, slap, smack etc...its all essentially the same which is using the palm as an organic impact device...
I have found that if I deliver a full bodied "slap" to an "inner ear target" I would have to clench or sieze them in order to keep them in my workspace, since the impact yields a spinal reflex that bends thier body away from the direction of force... Same as if you "palm the face", the head whips back and the body begins backstepping to catch up but if you seize them or continue the direction of force with another strike you can compound the original trauma or create additional trauma... This is pretty much the case with delivering open hand strikes to head targets but not so much with torso and pelvic region targets like the brachial plexus and groin...
Just elaborating... :)
Just elaborating... :)
Rgr Rgr. :cool:
Good stuff here ;)
After some years of formal martial arts training this is the first time that I've seen this mentioned. There are many parallels between the martial arts community and the shooting community which all tie in to the bigger picture of self defense. Taking down enemy personnel in the most efficient way possible is the overall goal of both communities.
Slapping or palm striking is situationally dictated like a couple of users had mentioned above. While it may be effective on one target the next might yield completely different results.
One of the flaws I see with palm striking is the effectiveness of a palm strike outside of the targeted area. Or simply put if the enemy isnt struck within a certain region of the face the effectiveness of the strike diminishes exponentially.
None the less it is a good tool to have and know how to use.
the_fallguy
01-05-10, 13:28
I have to disagree with your assessment of slapping, and it's ineffectiveness if you miss a specific area; The nice thing about a combative slap or a cupped hand blow, is that the striking surface is from the tip of your fingers all the way down to your elbow, and the intended target is from the top of the bad guy's head to the side of his shoulder. It actually takes less coordination than a punch, and if the intended target is missed there isn't as much of a chance of injuring yourself as there is if you miss a specific target with a punch.
From the mentality that grows from a formal martial arts background, you can sometimes begin to think of things in terms of individual techniques or learned combinations. With combatives, it is more like a continuous string of fire until the threat is nullified.
BTW, taking down the enemy is the goal between two mutual combatants. My goal is to go home safe and take care of my family in the long term. The differences between those two worldviews usually require a completely different strategy.
BLACK LION
01-06-10, 15:02
Good stuff here ;)
After some years of formal martial arts training this is the first time that I've seen this mentioned. There are many parallels between the martial arts community and the shooting community which all tie in to the bigger picture of self defense. Taking down enemy personnel in the most efficient way possible is the overall goal of both communities.
Slapping or palm striking is situationally dictated like a couple of users had mentioned above. While it may be effective on one target the next might yield completely different results.
One of the flaws I see with palm striking is the effectiveness of a palm strike outside of the targeted area. Or simply put if the enemy isnt struck within a certain region of the face the effectiveness of the strike diminishes exponentially.
None the less it is a good tool to have and know how to use.
I agree with FG.
To me, combatives are not self defense. Defense is a reaction to an action and most often based on some rehearsed or preset technique that is a product of a sense of reality that dictates what a threat will do.... not what is actually done.
Defense in itself connotates waiting for them to act so you can react, which inherently sets you at a disadvantage.
There is power in terminology and thats why you will never see self defense in anything I type. Counter-action would be a better term. I tend to sum it up into offensives since we are playing a life and death game not drunken monkey politics.
In a combatives setting nothing is preset and everything is based on actuality. This affords you the ability to improvise at the drop of a dime. Adaptabilty is not memorization of specific techniques for specific threats...its the ability to asess and act accordingly regardless of what jumps out of at you. You dont learn to adapt and improvise by going by a script.
I feel that if one wants to be successful in a combative manner you have to lend yourself to being as unconventional as possible. Believe that your enemy definatley is.
If I am effectively targeting a weak area of the face or head, like the ears, nose or temporal mandibular I am looking to take the whole noggin with it from the start. I am looking to step thru thier base, palm that target like a basketball and slam it into the earth. Im not merely slapping an ear or palming the chin, I am using those target to palm thier head off thier spine. Not only do I get an utterly positive effect on the specific target but I get trauma to the surrounding area as well as the other bonuses afforded by driving the entire body behind the palm thru the target and the threat itself.
If I select a target like the diaphragm, by stepping through thier base and slamming the palm heel into the target, not only do I get the desired effect that particular target yields but I get additional effects associated with the surrounding area and the mechanis of that type of strike.
Selecting the groin to strike with the palm is one of the easiest and most gratifying targets to utilize that way. Its a no miss and allows you to grab and tear after striking.
Another good point abobout open handed striking is that after the blow is delivered to the target the hand is already open enough to seize control of thier body parts as physics pushes them away or they collapse from the trauma.
Also the open hand allows you to both strike and sieze at the same time... no other body weapon medium affords you this opportunity.
Regarding punches, I tend to look at them as a social medium of communicating the lack of intent to kill. I see them as a medium to establish some sort of pecking order thru monkey politics.
They are the least effective of the striking mediums simply becuase only 2 knuckles are good for an impact device and only one(middle finger knuckle) is absorbing most of the impact and transfering the energy. You are confining you contact area to one knuckle.
Likewise, even if your punch is full bodied and structurally sound, you still run the risk of damaging yourself in the process. I would rather use a palm, forearm or elbow.
Punches are good but they are not final and when life and limb is at stake only what final is an asset...the rest is liability.
Excuse the rant...
I agree with FG.
Im not merely slapping an ear or palming the chin, I am using those target to palm thier head off thier spine. Not only do I get an utterly positive effect on the specific target but I get trauma to the surrounding area as well as the other bonuses afforded by driving the entire body behind the palm thru the target and the threat itself.
To the non expert, it was good reading. Can't speak for the others. To that end, if talking about the merits, or lack there of the open handed strike in isolation, when discussing the topic as you framed it, looking at something in isolation (in this case the relative ability of that strike to cause damage) when it's not in isolation, but part of a chain of movements? That is, framing as you have (it's not a boxing match or monkey pecking order) it's not like you will use the open handed strike and stand there to see if it had the desired effects, but use it as an opening to a chain of responses that leads to the desired outcome? That is, an open hand strike, in this context, is not it's effects in isolation, but it's utility in a chain that involves as you outlined. Does it have utility to what the following moves attempt to achieve, or not? Im gathering it does, if it's framed as you have.
I hope that makes some sense...
BLACK LION
01-06-10, 20:48
To the non expert, it was good reading. Can't speak for the others. To that end, if talking about the merits, or lack there of the open handed strike in isolation, when discussing the topic as you framed it, looking at something in isolation (in this case the relative ability of that strike to cause damage) when it's not in isolation, but part of a chain of movements? That is, framing as you have (it's not a boxing match or monkey pecking order) it's not like you will use the open handed strike and stand there to see if it had the desired effects, but use it as an opening to a chain of responses that leads to the desired outcome? That is, an open hand strike, in this context, is not it's effects in isolation, but it's utility in a chain that involves as you outlined. Does it have utility to what the following moves attempt to achieve, or not? Im gathering it does, if it's framed as you have.
I hope that makes some sense...
I believe I am tracking you Will. The answer is yes. Any target can open a chain but if the strike is done is isolation the window of opportunity for follow through is diminished significantly. Specific targets all have a non-cognitive spinal reflex. Its a natural switch at the top of the spine that reacts to stimulus(like when you touch a hot stove and auto jerk your whole arm away)... The stimulus must be injurous in order to negate the bigger, stronger faster law...
Pain is not the goal because everyones threshold is different.
Isolated striking in a combative situation is a gamble at best...here we are relying on a "single shot kill" rather than taking advantage of the luxury injury affords us with the spinal reflex and the ability to take ones time. For example; I deliver a full bodied forearm to the trachea... Isolation would have me make contact and then relish in the effect with no follow up or follow thru... that one shot,while possibly very debilitating to some may not be all thats needed to take down others....here they are in a text book backward arch reaching for the traumatized area and here I am waiting for the red sea to part instead of following through with injuries to other areas while he is BUSY with the initial strike.
The standpoint I am coming from is not in isolation but a chain of effects as a means to an utter end. Multiple objective trauma.
Violence to me is compounding multiple if not lethal injuries until satisfied with the results.
Likewise if I slap the testicles with a full body I get a text book "chin-up squat and reach"...we all do it. If I sit there and wait for them to timber or keel over like in the action movies I am gambling and taking a huge risk.... When I could be taking advantage of that text book reaction and the fact that he is busy to inflict more injuries elsewhere...
Striking with any medium in Isolation allows time and opportunity for the effect to diminish and the threat to regain control over thier brain and body.
There is such a thing as luck and the possibility that one full armed slap to the ear drum will knock them unconcious and send them flying onto the deck but thats a gamble...thats a risk...
You have to fight for your life without risking it and here lies the importance of training in a chain.
A chain on the other hand will have you deliver an injurous strike to a specified target that already has a non-cognitive reflex reaction(importance of targeting)
While they are busy with that non cognitive response to the trauma you are busy ruining the next target and the next and so on...each one having its own specified reflex, keeping them uttterly busy with injuries until the real threat(thier brain) ceases its function.
For example; I project through and deliver a forearm to the lateral side of the neck, while they are busy beginning the feinting process and thier body is moving away from the trauma I am already bending them down into a knee to the groin then a T-leverage while simultaneously striking the thoracic vertebrae or brachial plexus...this will ensure the t-leverage sends them to the deck by merely pushing thru them.... here they get ancillary trauma from the coccyx impacting the deck then the back of the skull...from there you can proceed to step pn or drop knees on softt argets until they are shut off.....
I know I am rambling so please forgive me....I feel like I over answered your question but if what I typed is not sufficient....I will elaborate.
In combatives, a violent chain of injurous effects is king... All men are created equal in objective injuries as there is no such thing as bigger, stronger, faster once you begin destroying vital areas and inherent weaknesses. A big strong man is nothing with a crushed larnyx, ruptured testicles and a severed cervical vertebrae...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvrvoBIq__k
In the empty hand portion of this demo you can see several open hand strikes. Pekiti Tirsia Kali is the combatives system used by the Filipino Marines Force Recon units.
Excuse me for my ignorant perception of a palm strike. After viewing the video I can see what is meant by a true palm strike.
In that sense I have seen many pratical and useful applications of a palm strike
Here is an interesting vid of slapping:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbubF5z7GE&feature=player_embedded
Thoughts?
http://thenormanomicon.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/norm.jpg
BLACK LION
03-02-10, 13:26
http://thenormanomicon.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/norm.jpg
Bye bye eardrum...bye bye cervical vertebrae....
Niiice.
This was a a Combat Pen / Kubaton Class in New Freedom PA. The dude was bigger than me and volunteered. I hit him with about 20% power and he saw a "white flash of light" and dropped almost in place. Central Nervous System disruption at it's best.- George
This was a a Combat Pen / Kubaton Class in New Freedom PA. The dude was bigger than me and volunteered. I hit him with about 20% power and he saw a "white flash of light" and dropped almost in place. Central Nervous System disruption at it's best.- George
Would have liked to see it as a vid, so we could see it from start to finish. That vid I put up above shows just how effective a properly executed open hand "slap" can be. :eek:
Thanx!
Will, me too. My AV guy was too busy taking the class:)
With that protective headgear the guy is wearing it almost looks like you are beating up on a handicapped person :eek:
He did go from able to disabled:) We found that doing it without headgear kept some people from coming back.:D
This was a a Combat Pen / Kubaton Class in New Freedom PA. The dude was bigger than me and volunteered. I hit him with about 20% power and he saw a "white flash of light" and dropped almost in place. Central Nervous System disruption at it's best.- George
The main problem George is your 20% is like most guys 75%.:D
BLACK LION
03-05-10, 10:46
I always leave a piece of myself behind every time I train.
The beautiful thing is that it is much more difficult NOT to injure your training partner(s) than it to actually injure someone. Violence literally is that easy. Not doing it is the hard part.
True. You get pretty good at estimating what people are capable of taking.- George
5thprofession47
03-07-10, 15:09
The main problem George is your 20% is like most guys 75%.:D
So true. I have a long time private student who owns and operates a private gym. He is a big guy. We were working something similar a few weeks ago when I told him to go about 30%...I wound up about ten feet from where I started. Great stuff!!
C'mon, don't scare people. They were love taps. The funny thing is that of all the times I have KOed someone in training it was as big as a surprise to me as it was to them. They are usually very light shots in the right place.- George
5thprofession47
03-10-10, 01:18
C'mon, don't scare people. They were love taps. The funny thing is that of all the times I have KOed someone in training it was as big as a surprise to me as it was to them. They are usually very light shots in the right place.- George
True, those tend to sneak up on you. Especially if your training partent is relaxed...
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