Georgia Arms Kaboom or NOT?

[magnum1]

Hello, I am one of the guys at Georgia Arms; we manufacture a long list of ammunition choices including a product called “Canned Heat”. I believe most of you read a story about our 223 ammo destroying two AR’s and how we failed to stand behind our product. Even thought I’m not Paul Harvey, I would like to tell you the “rest of the story”. It was reported that two kabooms occurred last year one in June of 2006 and another in August of 2006 both from the same batch of ammo. What you did not hear was that I called tagged 50 rounds of ammo back from the first customer and then 10,000 rounds back from his shooting partner and that BOTH batches of ammo were mixed with ammo that we did not manufacture. This was after the customer who had the second kaboom assured me that he EXCLUSIVELY used Georgia Arms Canned Heat for his training class, no possible chance it could be anything else. Needless to say when we started going through what we got back and found 23 rounds including factory Federal, factory Winchester and some reloads I could not identify other than they were not mine, (wrong bullet, wrong powder charge, wrong headspace), I was not overwhelmed with confidence in what the customer was telling me. As I explained the situation to him and indicated that I saw nothing wrong with my ammo and I believed he had a problem with someone else’s ammo he became very upset and said the ammo had to be mine because the headstamp on the case that destroyed his carbine was a WCC. WHAT? Does that make sense to you? Is Georgia Arms the only people who can load WCC cases? He also reported to you that the builder of the carbines positively identified the casings in the guns as ours. That is simply not true. Consider this; all that was left was two ruined 223 casings, no bullet, no powder, no primer, simply empty cases. Are we to suppose that someone has the power to look into their crystal ball and determine who loaded it last? The bottom line is no conclusion could be drawn from the casings. So, how did I decide the rounds were not ours? I felt the best approach was to determine what could have caused the problems we saw. Let me first explain the type of failure that occurred. A typical kaboom is nothing more than a case failure. The casing has a defect; it is too brittle, too thin or has an inclusion in the webb or wall. A case failure of this type at normal pressure destroys a magazine but very little else. These types of failures happen every so often and can not be prevented, that’s why we wear safety glasses. The two kabooms experienced here were NOT of that type. Those of you who that saw the pictures will remember, the whole receiver was destroyed, the bolt was split from end to end the bolt carrier destroyed etc. I talked with Reed Knight at Knights Armament Corp as he probably has as much knowledge and experience with the AR system as anyone alive today since Stoner passed away. Reed indicated that to do that type of damage to a quality gun, pressures above 90,000 psi were present in the firings. This is about twice what normal pressure would be. He narrowed the reasons down to two; barrel obstruction or the wrong powder in the case. I examined the barrels and saw no evidence of an obstruction. I believe these two incidents were caused by someone loading the wrong speed powder in the casing. Normal speed powder used in the 223 (748, H335, WC844, smp 735 etc.) would run out of case capacity long before you could generate this type of pressure. However a 25 grain charge of a pistol speed powder could do this damage (231, HP-38, Titegroup, Bullseye, etc). So how do I know that we did not load the wrong powder? To answer that, let me give you a brief overview of how we assemble 223 ammo. We have two arsenal style machines that are in-line presses with 21 stations to handle assembly and 12 different quality control checks during the assembly process. Each machine has a powder hopper that holds 5 lbs of powder. The hopper is run down to the 1lb level and then 4 lbs of powder is added back to the fill line. 4 lbs of smp 735 will load over 1000 rounds of 223 ball ammo. Simple logic dictates that if we poured the wrong speed powder into the hopper, we would have produced over 1000 high pressures rounds not 2 out of 15,000. Also we have at this time completed a teardown of over 100 rounds of the 10,000 we recalled from these customers with all powder charges being within specifications. Also after culling out the rounds that we identified as not being ours, (remember we have the bullet, powder, primer and headspace to examine on these loaded rounds) all the remaining rounds in theses two lots were fired with no problems. The bottom line; I am 100% certain we did not put the wrong powder in these two cases. So, how does Georgia Arms stand behind their products? We paid for repairing the two guns anyway just to prevent anyone from having a basis to run down our reputation. I guess you can see how well that worked out for us. If I may offer some advice from an old man who has been shooting for over 40 years now. When you are shooting ammunition from several sources, keep them separate!! Shooting with a mixture of ammo in your magazine is about the same as buying your gas from three different gas stations, 1/3 of a tank from each, if you end up with water in your tank whom will you blame? For those of you who took the time to read this whole post, I appreciate your patience, for those of you who buy ammo from us I appreciate you patronage and as Paul Harvey would say “and now you know the rest of the story”! I welcome any question or comments. Till next time I remain, magnum1

[Harv]

Interesting.. I have followed those stories for awhile on the various boards.. From what I know of you product, it had a very good rep up until those incidents.
I was planning on buying some of your ammo until your price went up to a point where I felt more comfortable paying a little bit more and buy Factory.

I have a Pat Rogers 3 Day Carbine class in May, feel free to send me 1200 rds and I will run it for the entire class and let you know what I think...

[Robb Jensen]

Last year I repaired one of the rifles (an RRA) that was damaged by Canned Heat ammo. Luckily it wasn't completely catastrosphic. What it did require was a new bolt, magazine, extractor, extractor pin, firing pin, & cam pin. IIRC it was a Lake City case and not WCC. I also believe that there's a high probability that the casing had been previously fired in a belt-fed M249.

[Dport]

I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask you anyway gotm4. If I was to get a JP case gauge, I could weed out the ones fired by M249s right?

[Robb Jensen]

I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask you anyway gotm4. If I was to get a JP case gauge, I could weed out the ones fired by M249s right?

I'm not sure. I just wouldn't shoot anything that has previously throught a belt-fed to just save a couple of bucks.

The one that I repaired blew out at the web. It damaged the bolt, extractor, cam pin, firing pin and magazine.

What I think happened is that the casing was weak at the web and the higher cyclic rate of the RRA 16" carbine gas AR (standard CAR buffer) allowed the bolt to open too soon thus causing it to blow out at the web. This round may not have done this with a heavier buffer, mid-length gas system or rifle gas system.

[M4arc]

magnum1 - Thanks for registering and participating in the forum. Sharing information is what it's all about.

[GaryXD]

Thanks for the info. I bought 500rds of Canned Heat a week ago. It's about gone now and it has been perfect. But based on what I have read on the internet in the last week I just ordered a case of XM193 and paid more for it. I think I'll reconsider my next purchase.

[jem375]

Thanks for clearing this subject up, I also ordered 500 rounds last week and also sent you an email asking you what to expect if it is found out that a Kaboom happened with canned heat ammo and you responded yesterday...thanks for a quick reply....I will order more from you in the future since your pricing of the canned heat is much better than even surplus ammo which is completely getting out of hand.............some of these dealers are trying to make a quick buck at the expense of most shooters especially with surplus ammo...

[MaceWindu]

Thanks for clearing this subject up.:rolleyes:

Check these comments:

From across the street, these are from all different posters that I don' know.


Let me add in my part of this puzzle if I could.

I was part of that group ammo buy from GA. I had been working some pretty steep hours and that ammo sat UNOPENED in my office for over 4 months till the day I took it to the range. That was the same day and range at which Mace's rifle blew apart shooting GA canned heat.

I closed back up the ammo cans of GA canned heat right then and we shipped them right back to GA for a refund.

Prior to getting to the range the GA ammo had never even been out of the cardboard box it was shipped in let alone out of the ammo can.

After GA got my ammo back they claimed mine was some of the ammo that had ammo they didn't load mixed into it.

Evidently either:

A) I am lying.
B) I don't know how to maintain a chain of custody anymore.
or
C)The ammo fairies sprinkled my ammo cans of GA with ammo dust while it was secured in my office.

GA was dragged kicking and screaming to face their responsibilities to their customers and THAT is the biggest issue.



My answer is C...the ammo fairies.

They sprinkled the same shit into my cans when my AR boomed on GA. Either that or we both belong to the same liars club.

I knew I should have sealed the cans with some of that Fairie Repellant that GA sells, I just thought that it was a marketing gimmick.

The asshat from GA should reconsider his "zumbo-like" remarks. Being on the receiving end of the explosion I can attest to the fact that it was not a mild 'pressure fart' down the magwell.
I was simply put.......****ING HUGE!

Also I don't care how long that dickhead has been shooting.......to use his 'years of experience' as a means of discrediting those of us that had explosions due to his ammo is pretty damn lame.......but what do I know, I've only been shooting AR's since 1984.

Also....mixing gasoline has nothing at all to do with what we are talking about and its a pretty ghey analogy.

I have not contacted GA yet about my issue with my rifle exploding. I just got my results back from Armalite a couple of weeks ago. Their findings:

Headspace Go Gauge - OK
Headspace No-Go Gauge - OK
NATO Throat Gauge - GO
NATO Case Taper - GO
No defect noted in chamber

Ball Gauge Method - All Reading within Normal Range for Chamber/Bore

I sent them a random sample of my GA ammo. What they found was:
"24 loaded rounds were examined. OAL on loaded ammo varied from 1.220-1.237 case headstamps F>C, Win, LC. One case noted with 2 large dents at shoulder. Several with ring at or near bottom of case.

Also said they found some light dust that seemed to dance with an irradescent glow when they turned off the lights.

Makes me look really forward to dealing with these guys on return of my remaining 6,000 rounds and replacement cost of my ruined parts.





Mine was from Canned Heat also. I shot about 1700 rounds of Canned Heat before it killed my rifle.

I did not receive satisfaction from the company from Georgia Arms for the damage it caused my rifle, but as it was a relatively inexpensive repair ($60) it honestly wasn't worth the time to try to collect.



CHECK OUT THIS ONE BELOW...M1A .308 KaBoom with GA Ammo.


I am going to divulge a little bit of information hare as I live about 5 miles from Georgia Arms. I have shot alot of their ammo and I personallyhave nevfer had a problem with any of it except in the pistoll calibers. They load their ammo less that the proper OAL for feeding in less quality guns. I have seen M1A's go kaboom with their ammo and now I have seen pictures of Maces Gun and I have no reason to doubt him. Stating that they deny it is their ammo I would defenitely go with Mace's story because that is exactly what they told my bud with the M1A. Georgia Public Safety Training Center uses their ammo boxed under Master Cartridge logo.

Their facility is not state of the art and they buy just about all brass back so no telling how many times it has been loaded.

I too will now stay clear of it. Thanks for the pictures Mace.



I posted in FP a couple of months ago about a KB one of my officers had with GA Canned Heat .40cal in a Glock 27. Their quality control seems spotty at best, and my days of buying the stuff are over.






Posted Dec 30, 06 14:49 Hide Post
I have two rules about GA Canned Heat.

1) I will never shoot a round of it again.

2) If you shoot it then move down to the other end of the firing line from me.


GA punked out about excepting responsibility for their ammo and what it did out here to two of our guy's rifles. Even more that the QC issues GA's business ethics are sorely lacking and they do not deserve our patronage.




Shooting my Rock River Mid Length Saturday.....rifle goes bang, bang, BOOM. just like Debo described his kaboom.

Background:
Rifle is (was) 16" Rock River Mid Length, with brand new Armalite 16" barrel installed the night before.

Ammo was Georgia Arms Canned Heat

I am bench firing to sight my eotech at 50 yards. just finished firing rounds 10,11, and 12 and had a nice 1/2" group in the center of the target. load up rounds 13,14, and 15.

Rifle goes bang, bang, BOOM!

Thankfully I was not injured. Below are pictures of the aftermath.


Would anyone like links to these posts? I can provide them no problem. Rifles blow-up. That is not the issue. ALL of this could have been avoided if they had NOT avoided responsibility and taken care of the issue.

Mace

[graffex]

:rolleyes:

Check these comments:

From across the street, these are from all different posters that I don' know.










CHECK OUT THIS ONE BELOW...M1A .308 KaBoom with GA Ammo.











Would anyone like links to these posts? I can provide them no problem. Rifles blow-up. That is not the issue. ALL of this could have been avoided if they had NOT avoided responsibility and taken care of the issue.

Mace


:eek:

[Harv]

Hey.. My offer still stands.. send me 1200 rds for a class and I'll run it exclusively.....

[Sam]

I have shot over 10,000 rounds of GA Arms .223/5.56 canned heat ammo throughout the years and never had any problem. Just bought another 500 Saturday. I've shot them in various training classes with Paul Howe, Ken Hackathorn and S-Dave, so have dozens of other students. I'm planning to shoot another 1000 at LAV class in two weeks.

[Robb Jensen]

I have shot over 10,000 rounds of GA Arms .223/5.56 canned heat ammo throughout the years and never had any problem. Just bought another 500 Saturday. I've shot them in various training classes with Paul Howe, Ken Hackathorn and S-Dave, so have dozens of other students. I'm planning to shoot another 1000 at LAV class in two weeks.

Good luck. But your argument is illogical. Just because they made 10K rounds of trouble free ammo doesn't mean that any ammo that they've made or will make will be trouble free.

Even the large manufacturers of new ammo mess up sometimes too. I've had Winchester white box .45ACP that had the bullets seated WAY TOO DEEP in the casings right out of the box before it ever made it into a magazine or the pistol. This probably would have blown up my pistol. Winchester sent me $40 in ammo coupons after sending the ammo back to them.

[Obiwan]

I believe it was Pat Rogers that reported a factory federal round that tested over 60,000 psi

Stuff can happen...I am suspicious of anyone that claims otherwise

I had some .357 Sig rounds that blew out the primer pockets

UMC sent me a check but suggested my pistol might be defective

I solved the problem by never shooting UMC again

[jem375]

I also remember that 2 Seattle LEO's G21's Kaboomed with Federal 45ACP ammo....S&B is another one with reported failures...it looks like quality control has slipped a notch lately but unless you reload, you are really depending on the ammo manufacturers to do their best to keep the quality up...

[Razorhunter]

Damn what a shame...

[tinman44]

I believe it was Pat Rogers that reported a factory federal round that tested over 60,000 psi

Stuff can happen...I am suspicious of anyone that claims otherwise

I had some .357 Sig rounds that blew out the primer pockets

UMC sent me a check but suggested my pistol might be defective

I solved the problem by never shooting UMC again

i have a .40cal bullet i pulled out of my barrel, luckily it was last round of the day, in fact i had no idea it had happened until i cleaned it and realized my push rod wasnt clearing the barrel. I purchased from UMC, i will never buy UMC stuff again.