View Full Version : All this talk of handguns made me go shopping yesterday..Suprise ending!
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 17:56
All this talk about pistols gave me an itch to go run through the ones that most mention, Again... I own an XD .45 tac (as you know) and I am not looking to replace it but merely "augment" my stock...
I am looking at metal frame and slide guns but did make exception to the more "widely noted as reliable" polymer pistols which include Glock, M&P and H&K... It does have to be a .45... thats just me.
Didnt do any shooting becuase I can tell by dry handling wether its acceptable for me or not(at least to start since it could still shoot like shyt). I have already handled most of these enough since a good portion of my life the past few years has been a wide selection of firearms(ones available to us civvies :P)...
M&P.45
I can see why people like the M&P since it pretty much negates the hand fitting issue... I like the cocking serrations...the sights line up well and the trigger is good(reset was crunchy)... There are other ergonomics I like about the gun... Its very appealing. However, there are things I did not like but the only ones I will mention are ease of field stripping and the factory novak sights do not offer ease of one handed slide manipulation... good luck getting them to catch on a belt or boot heel....BUT... A very nice piece and again, very appealing.
H&K USP .45.... I have always liked these, my problem is the accessory rail... I shouldnt have to only use a HK light or a phuckin adaptor ... HK45 are not approved here so no dice on those:( ....
Glock 20 and 21.... Like the 10mm cartridge and the Ability to slap a .50gi slide on there and hunk lead really tickles me... To my suprise it had the easiest feeding factory magwell out of the bunch... There is shyt I dont like about Glock's, namely the factory sights but there are things about Glock as a whole that would negate many things. I like the plethora of aftermarket parts and the offering of a polymer 10mm/50gi combo is enough to sell me itself...
Sig... well, there were no 220s' so I didnt look twice...
1911's... Love em but I dont care for the ones that were available...I have my eye on Dan Wesson at the moment... Apparently I can get a solid one for under or around a grand... Not to sure if I will go the 1911 route again right now...
The suprise is...
I then stumbled upon the CZ... This is a do-able platform although I have not shot it. It had great egonomics, sight picture and feels like a warhorse in my hand. The trigger was nice and crisp. I like hoe they engineered the gun by putting most of the bulk/weight in the lower frame... I was forwarded to CZ a few times by some fellow shooters but I never payed any attention to them... I ventured into the www to find out more and was pleased at what I was able to gather on them...
Definately threw a wrench in the whole deal.
I have my eye on the CZ 97BD, even though it does not afford an accessory rail like the smaller caliber models... Come to find they offer a polymer version in smaller calibers called the "phantom"... These guns are nice... Real nice...
Thanks for letting me rant... did not post this to stp on any toes since I found something to like in everyone I held...even the ones I "dont like".... I also took a harder look at ones I so religiously ignored in the past and it was an eye opener...
Floor is open
decodeddiesel
11-13-09, 18:44
I am glad you found a pistol you like, however your post is really confusing.
Are you in California, or is this a new duty gun you're looking at?
First you say the HK45s "are not approved here so no dice on those", yet then you mention your fancy with some obscure CZ pistol. :confused: Don't get me wrong, I really like the CZ-75B (though the design is very dated compared to other options), but I have never heard of this one you mention. I googled it, and to a CZ-75 fan it sure looks sexy, but that's not to say it it a good choice.
Now I'm going to say somethings you may not like hearing, but I'm going ot say them anyway. About the CZ 97BD, is it in use with any agencies, .mil or LEO? What can be said of it's track record for real world reliability and durability? I have seen first hand a fair share of CZ owners of late being very disappointed with the reliability and quality of their pistols.
I would imagine finding a way to mount a weapon light, aftermarket sights, holsters, magazines, CT grips, etc. is going to be painful at best, impossible more than likely.
If I may weigh in on your comments on the MP45, I would consider your disqualification over not being able to do one handed manipulations with the stock sights to be a weak argument at best. There are damn near as many aftermarket sight options for the M&P as there are for the Glock, surely you can change out the sights for something better at a minimal cost. Further while I am not a big fan of 3-dot sights the M&P factory sights are far superior to the Glock.
Just my $0.02
The 97's shoot well and softly, but you'll play hell finding accessories/parts/holsters for it.
I have large hands (size 12 glove) but I find the CZ ergo's uncomfortable.
BLACK LION
11-13-09, 19:20
My posts are confusing most of the time because I dont have un-interrupted time or availability on the net. Most often, I am working and trying to piece meal posts in between.
My post was observative and not objective... I have not decided on or negated any of the platforms listed... They are all being considered.
I do plan on taking all the information provided in this thread into consideration.
I also would like to know more about the CZ and you provided some good info.
The 97B is the only .45 they offer and the BD has a decocker...
decodeddiesel
11-13-09, 20:11
You didn't answer my question about why the HK45 was immediately disqualified. :confused:
I have two CZ's, the SP-01 tactical and the P-01, both in 9mm and I am quite happy with them. If you are comparing them to a polymer you are going to be disappointed in the weight but I have gotten used to it. I used to own an HK45 and sold it on consignment to get the SP-01. I had some early reliability issues with the SP-01 but I sent it in for some work and now it runs like a top. I have yet to have a single malf with the P-01 through approx. 1000 rounds.
You didn't answer my question about why the HK45 was immediately disqualified. :confused:
I think he said that they are not approved where he is at. I am assuming that he is a LEO and has certain parameters he must work within for a duty weapon but I could be incorrect.
decodeddiesel
11-13-09, 22:50
I think he said that they are not approved where he is at. I am assuming that he is a LEO and has certain parameters he must work within for a duty weapon but I could be incorrect.
ASS-U-ME
This is the exact reason why I was asking.
ASS-U-ME
This is the exact reason why I was asking.
He did not say he disqualified the HK45, he said it was not approved where he was at. Considering that the HK45 only sports a 10 round mag, it would not be on the no no list for any state that I am aware of. That doesn't leave too many options.
decodeddiesel
11-14-09, 00:06
He did not say he disqualified the HK45, he said it was not approved where he was at. Considering that the HK45 only sports a 10 round mag, it would not be on the no no list for any state that I am aware of. That doesn't leave too many options.
If he is in California (as I asked in my initial post) and it is not on the bullshit "DOJ approved list" then it is not legal in that state. Frankly I don't know if it is or not.
You don't know what you don't know, this is why I asked.
Back to the topic at hand, Black Lion what exactly are you purchasing this pistol for?
If this is indeed for duty use I would stay away from a CZ97. I'm sure it shoots great like most CZs, but it's a crapshoot if it'll feed anything but fmj from what I've heard.
He's not LE. LE is exempt from the "CA DOJ Safe Handgun Roster". LEO's can purchase the HK45 for personal use. Ironically, LE can also sell "unsafe, non-approved" handguns to non-LE via private party. HK45's were being listed by LE for ~$1500 in CA via private sales when they first hit the 49 states.
I don't think he had a specific question in mind, maybe just fishing for more input.
M&P45 would be my choice. It's a nice balance of size, capacity, ergonomics, value, and "shootability".
An Undocumented Worker
11-15-09, 21:30
I've ran my CZ 75 D compact through 2000+ rounds since i got it this past march, and have had no failures, stoppages etc with it at all. I find it easy to shoot and rediculously accurate for a handgun at it's pricepoint.
It is hard to go wrong with thier 75 platform guns as they were designed for police/military use and are still used in those roles today.
As for the 97, I don't know much about it, other than it is a BIG handgun.
If you want more plentiful information on em go to
http://www.czforumsite.info
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 16:26
You didn't answer my question about why the HK45 was immediately disqualified. :confused:
Not Ca DOJ approved...
decodeddiesel
11-16-09, 16:41
Not Ca DOJ approved...
Figured.
Seriously, I would just get the 4" M&P45 and call it a day. I know it's the "popular" choice right now, but it's for good reason.
BLACK LION
11-16-09, 16:41
If he is in California (as I asked in my initial post) and it is not on the bullshit "DOJ approved list" then it is not legal in that state. Frankly I don't know if it is or not.
You don't know what you don't know, this is why I asked.
Back to the topic at hand, Black Lion what exactly are you purchasing this pistol for?
To augment/enhance my current inventory.
I run an XD .45 tactical that has been upgraded a bit. Its a great pistol but I want an "arguably" better one. A balls to the wall 1911 has always been on the horizon but it has always been shadowed by an H&K .45...USPs are what is available to me here.
The purpose is: a better built tool on my tool belt. It will be shot very often in training. I hope I neve have to use it for its intended purpose which is personal protection. It may very well end up my CCW gun when licensing permits.
Both H&K and 1911 afford aftermarket training simulators in airsoft and pellet platforms... another bonus.
Got a PM on a used USP .45 for 700.00 today... well se???
I liked the CZ-75s that I got to fondle... they look and feel pretty damn solid... Feed ramps looked down past the mouth of the mag so reliability with all types of ammo should be sound. They really seem to be built around the shooter...
The M&P is a great platform and my wife and my brothers wife are gonna be getting one since they are reliably, controllable and shootable...
decodeddiesel
11-16-09, 16:51
To augment/enhance my current inventory.
I run an XD .45 tactical that has been upgraded a bit. Its a great pistol but I want an "arguably" better one. A balls to the wall 1911 has always been on the horizon but it has always been shadowed by an H&K .45...USPs are what is available to me here.
The purpose is: a better built tool on my tool belt. It will be shot very often in training. I hope I neve have to use it for its intended purpose which is personal protection. It may very well end up my CCW gun when licensing permits.
Both H&K and 1911 afford aftermarket training simulators in airsoft and pellet platforms... another bonus.
Mind you the M&P also has airsoft "trainers" available.
I damn near bought the HK45 (I still may in the future) with the intent of buying the LEM trigger kit from HK, and retro-fitting the pistol. In the end the reasons why I went with a full size M&P45 are:
Magazines are plentiful and cost about $25 a pop, compared to $65+ for HK45 mags
Aftermarket sight options are more plentiful than the HK45, including Warren, 10-8, Heinie, Burwell, etc.
Holsters are more common for the M&P45
Made in the U.S.A. by an American company.
$400 less
The Crimson Trace grip insert for the M&P is the best laser/pistol combination on the market. This is a BIG tool to have in your tool belt.
M&P is easy to work on, and the design is straightforward and not overly complicated
A lot of top tier instructors are really pushing the M&Ps, and for good reason
It has been adopted in various calibers by hundreds of large LE departments around the country and has proven it's self to be a reliable and durable weapon
I could go on and on, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.
Hope this helps.
decodeddiesel
11-16-09, 17:03
Got a PM on a used USP .45 for 700.00 today... well see???
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_71/products_id/53541
Brand new M&P45 4" $564 shipped from Bud's Gun Shop.
Dirk Williams
11-16-09, 19:00
Black Lion stick to what fits your needs and budget. The CZ line of pistols are good guns maybe not as modern as the M&P or Glocks but still dam good pistols.
Dirk
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_71/products_id/53541
Brand new M&P45 4" $564 shipped from Bud's Gun Shop.
The 4'"models are not approved in CA.
decodeddiesel
11-16-09, 21:35
The 4'"models are not approved in CA.
Well that sucks, but it doesn't change the point I am trying to make.
I sold my M&P45, as the rear edge of the external safety hit my shooting hand thumb on every shot unless I put my thumb low. I can shoot thumbs high on everything else I own (1911s, no-safety M&P, Glocks), so I decided it wasn't worth making a change for that one gun.
Hopefully I'll have the cash for a no-safety version soon. Or the money for an Ed Brown...
As far as sights go, a ton of options out there for the M&P. Heinie, 10-8, Warren/Sevigny, Bowie Tactical among others offer models that work for one-handed manipulations.
RogerinTPA
11-17-09, 20:15
I sold my M&P45, as the rear edge of the external safety hit my shooting hand thumb on every shot unless I put my thumb low. I can shoot thumbs high on everything else I own (1911s, no-safety M&P, Glocks), so I decided it wasn't worth making a change for that one gun.
Hopefully I'll have the cash for a no-safety version soon. Or the money for an Ed Brown...
As far as sights go, a ton of options out there for the M&P. Heinie, 10-8, Warren/Sevigny, Bowie Tactical among others offer models that work for one-handed manipulations.
If you ride the safety with the thumb of your shooting hand (thumb on top and holding it down), it won't be a problem. I find it comfortable and a non issue when shooting my M&P45 with the safety, the same way I shoot a 1911.
decodeddiesel
11-18-09, 10:49
duplicate
decodeddiesel
11-18-09, 10:53
If you ride the safety with the thumb of your shooting hand (thumb on top and holding it down), it won't be a problem. I find it comfortable and a non issue when shooting my M&P45 with the safety, the same way I shoot a 1911.
Same here.
Also removing the manual safety on a such equipped M&P is ridiculously easy. Just clear the weapon, field strip, drive out FCG retaining roll pin, remove FCG, remove safety, reassemble in reverse order.
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 14:27
I am already going to get an M&P but not a .45... I am going to get a SLIGHTLY used M&P9that already has what needs to be done... done. I can train with .45 since I have access to "remanufactured" loads for about 300.00 per 1k...However, 9mm is more plentiful in all ammo types and definately cheaper.... Easier to train with.
I can also get the wife and daughter out there easier by letting then think its thier pistol... No way I could convince her a .45 was for her...:D
I am leaning toward an HK USP .45 full size... Mags are about 40.00 and I can actually get a gently used one(250rds) with 5 mags for under 700.00..... It would be outstanding if I could get an HK45 her thru PPT.... Wishfull thinking.
I am also somewhat salivating over the 4th gen glock which sounds like it could be a real winner overall....
I could probably get over 900.00 for my XD if I sold it right now but I see no reason to fix what isnt broke. Besides I would be throwing all that muscle memory down the drain.
M&P9 is in...
For a full size .45 though I am still on the fence.
The H&K is very enticing for a few reasons...besides the fact that I already have and have access to milsim devices that almost mirror the platform.
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 15:52
Just got a response from a local guy here regarding that H&K USP 45F with an AE(2004) date code. He sts the original owner only put 250 rds thru it and he has not shot it at all. He went down to 650.00...
Does this sound like something I should entertain?? If so, what should I look for or ask??
From experience I can say that an HK USP .45f is an excellent weapon. My HK USP .45 is the most accurate (non 1911) and reliable handgun I have owned - even in comparison to other HK's I've owned. The only caveat would be the size of the grip. If you plan on running +P through it, make sure the grip is not so large as to cause you to have to adjust your hands between shots. The officer that sold me the weapon had this issue. It is a big gun, but has great capacity. No it is not quite an HK .45, but it is a great choice at that price. I bought it at around that price and would do it again without hesitation.
BLACK LION
11-18-09, 19:32
From experience I can say that an HK USP .45f is an excellent weapon. My HK USP .45 is the most accurate (non 1911) and reliable handgun I have owned - even in comparison to other HK's I've owned. The only caveat would be the size of the grip. If you plan on running +P through it, make sure the grip is not so large as to cause you to have to adjust your hands between shots. The officer that sold me the weapon had this issue. It is a big gun, but has great capacity. No it is not quite an HK .45, but it is a great choice at that price. I bought it at around that price and would do it again without hesitation.
Thanks for the tidbits.
IMO my XD.45 tactical grip is larger than most pistols I have held.
It feels as if the HK grip is a tad smaller and actually for me its perfect.
I cannot say the same about my XDs grip as I feel it needs a little shaving under grip safety along the spine of the backstrap. There is a hump there which makes this gun uncomfortable in allot of hands. It is comfortable, but not perfect like the HK.
More info on the HK:
Desert Tan
V1= SA/DA(safety has decocker)
2 Factory mags
Night sights
No word on wether the warranty is transferrable or not???
heres a couple of pics...
http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=emb&view=att&th=12509c5fe9e8d50c
http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=emb&view=att&th=12509c606d8f4f46
That is the variant you want for sure. The color (if you like it - I do) and the night sights, makes it a good price. Mags may be hard to find and expensive, but its an HK. That's just what you will deal with. I like XD's and Glocks etc. very much. But I will say that in my opinion an HK is a superior weapon to an XD in terms of engineering. Ergos are personal preference and if you think the grip is perfect for you than go for it.
Make sure your mags drop free from the magwell. HK's have internal saftey locks in the mag well under the hammer spring. You cannot rack the slide if the gun is locked. If someone has tried to force the slide while the gun was locked your hammer spring may be bent a little which can cause the mags to not drop freely. It is a cheap fix, but something to be aware of. Also make sure you are getting the key to the internal lock with the gun. Not sure about the warranty.
You will love that weapon.
BLACK LION
11-19-09, 12:45
That is the variant you want for sure. The color (if you like it - I do) and the night sights, makes it a good price. Mags may be hard to find and expensive, but its an HK. That's just what you will deal with. I like XD's and Glocks etc. very much. But I will say that in my opinion an HK is a superior weapon to an XD in terms of engineering. Ergos are personal preference and if you think the grip is perfect for you than go for it.
Make sure your mags drop free from the magwell. HK's have internal saftey locks in the mag well under the hammer spring. You cannot rack the slide if the gun is locked. If someone has tried to force the slide while the gun was locked your hammer spring may be bent a little which can cause the mags to not drop freely. It is a cheap fix, but something to be aware of. Also make sure you are getting the key to the internal lock with the gun. Not sure about the warranty.
You will love that weapon.
Thanks a hell of alot for the advice.
I wouldnt have even known to ask for the key to the internal lock. I had no idea it had one...:o I am waiting on a response for this one.
I researched the warranty and found that HK only covers the original purchaser for thier natural life... Not subsequent purchasers of the same gun... They do not cover the life of the pistol, just the OG buyer. The response that I get from that is the platform is "superior" enough that I should not need a warranty. I have been told that the just "don't break"...
Desert tan seems more rare than others and the night sights are a bonus.
It being a "variant 1" is a bonus for me as well.
I dont think mags will be difficult to find for around 40.00...
Everything seems GTG and I am meeting up in a day or so to check it out.
I priced these new at around 900.00 with tax and fees....
I am really trying to get it down to 600.00 even...
We will see...
Anything else I should be aware of???
I think you are on the right track. That internal lock is a cool safety feature and even savy gun owners won't know about it. A crook sure as hell won't know about it.
I respect those who may differ with this opinion, and as I said, I love many other types of guns, but HK's are a cut above. Unless the previous owner tried to make the gun "better" by gunsmithing it or something poorly, you won't have a problem. I've seen "Break my USP" threads on the internet - i think by a member who posts on M4C regularly - that document the level of abuse that gun will handle and it is astounding.
I would not be worried about the warranty. I would be worried about how much that gun will make you want to buy an HK 416 or any other HK made products that may be hard to come by...
BLACK LION
11-19-09, 14:40
This will be a great enhancement to the XD .45 tactical that I am already very fond of(owned since thier release in 06)... I am not looking to replace my XD rather provide support with a better "polymer" platform... I have always wanted a USP .45 but felt I was not "ready" for one when I first dove into the .45 pool...
I cant see spending 1k for a pistol when I can have two for that price... But this way, I can have my cake and eat it too.
The USP will definately serve better for all types for my private investigator/with firearm application.
Thanks again
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