View Full Version : Terror Trial
Belmont31R
11-13-09, 18:26
Just like almost every other aspect of our society softness and PC has replaced logic, tradition, and common sense.
Our country is too strong to be defeated by an outside enemy. We can, however, do ourselves in from the inside.
This is really, really bad for the United States. These guys are going to get the same rights and you and I and American lawyers are going to represent them and try and win for their clients.
I'm not sure the average Joe & Jane are smart enought to realize just what a terrible decision this is. Eric Holder has sold you, me and every other American out. Everyone should be outraged but it appears the civil rights groups are very excited about this move.
SW-Shooter
11-13-09, 18:27
The "leader" of an Army declares war on the United States of America. His GENERALS plan multiple attacks of military and civilian targets, which are summarily executed one after the other.........
.......And the best the leader of this country can do is to try them in our civilian legal system, just like any low life drug dealer, rapist, murderer. The same legal system that is notorious for letting scum off only to commit crime again, and again.
How is this not wrong, where is the outrage? What the hell has happened to us?
What has happened to my thread?
SW-Shooter
11-13-09, 18:29
Whoooo I thought that LSD from the late 70's kicked in.:cool:
Belmont31R
11-13-09, 18:34
WTF is going on? How is my post above the OP's?
It looks like the times are all off...server issue probably.
VooDoo6Actual
11-13-09, 18:38
Yep,
I think you got it straight....
How do you all feel about Khalid Sheik Mohammed being tried on U.S. soil? I can't understand how they think that these animals will get a fair trial in a civilian court. They are detainees and don't deserve the rights afforded to U.S. criminals. I hope to God that these bastards don't get off because of civilian evidentiary procedures. We should have killed his ass in the field. I would like to support the CINC but this unsupportable. Opinions?
Just like almost every other aspect of our society softness and PC has replaced logic, tradition, and common sense.
Our country is too strong to be defeated by an outside enemy. We can, however, do ourselves in from the inside.
I like to consider myself a old school NCO. I cuss, raise hell, and tell Joe what is on my mind no matter whose feelings get hurt. I have raised my daughter's with the same mindset. I have been against PC since that term reared it's ugly head back around '94. There is no room for hurt feelings and PC when you are in the CZ. The only concern leaders should have is whether or not yo have some one who goes against the grain often enough to cause a break down in the good order and discipline of the unit. Logic says to hold military tribunals for the scum. If the CINC doesn't want the political fall out of hold U.S. sponsored tribunals, he should send there sorry ass to the Hague for military tribunals. They handled the Bosnian issue fairly adequately (although no death sentences). I will be seriously pissed if these terrorist get off because of rights they don't deserve (i.e. Miranda). I rapidly deployed as a newly married 21 year old back in 1990 for what was supposed to be a war that would settle atleast the Iraq portion of the Middle east issue. 19 years later i'm still in and we are in the midst of what can only be called a generational war. Logic and common sense says that we should be taking the fight the terrorist. We should be wage war with all tools available to us. We should be prosecuting this war with precision and ruthlessness. We should not be trying detainees as common criminals. I am a warrior not a policeman. We only have prisoners because 1) they gave up or 2) they survived the multiple GSWs that we inflicted with initial contact. Policeman serve and protect while the military closes and kills are countries enemies with overwhelming fire power. We don't read Miranda and the only rights are prisoners have is the right not to be shot in the head after we disarm them. Forgive my rant but i'm pissed off and sleep deprived.
Man the server is acting flaky. Hard to keep track of the post with everything out of order. My last reply is right behind my original post. Moderators willyou all be able to reorder the posts? Must be because it is Friday the 13th.
This is terrible. He should nuked where he is. How much money are we going to pay for his protection here? How many freaks will try to martyr themselves on our soil, killing Americans?
We have a comnander in joke.
This thread shows "moved", but...
This thread shows "moved", but...
The server is acting up. The entire thread is out of order.
Belmont31R
11-13-09, 20:01
I like to consider myself a old school NCO. I cuss, raise hell, and tell Joe what is on my mind no matter whose feelings get hurt. I have raised my daughter's with the same mindset. I have been against PC since that term reared it's ugly head back around '94. There is no room for hurt feelings and PC when you are in the CZ. The only concern leaders should have is whether or not yo have some one who goes against the grain often enough to cause a break down in the good order and discipline of the unit. Logic says to hold military tribunals for the scum. If the CINC doesn't want the political fall out of hold U.S. sponsored tribunals, he should send there sorry ass to the Hague for military tribunals. They handled the Bosnian issue fairly adequately (although no death sentences). I will be seriously pissed if these terrorist get off because of rights they don't deserve (i.e. Miranda). I rapidly deployed as a newly married 21 year old back in 1990 for what was supposed to be a war that would settle atleast the Iraq portion of the Middle east issue. 19 years later i'm still in and we are in the midst of what can only be called a generational war. Logic and common sense says that we should be taking the fight the terrorist. We should be wage war with all tools available to us. We should be prosecuting this war with precision and ruthlessness. We should not be trying detainees as common criminals. I am a warrior not a policeman. We only have prisoners because 1) they gave up or 2) they survived the multiple GSWs that we inflicted with initial contact. Policeman serve and protect while the military closes and kills are countries enemies with overwhelming fire power. We don't read Miranda and the only rights are prisoners have is the right not to be shot in the head after we disarm them. Forgive my rant but i'm pissed off and sleep deprived.
Our current leadership believes that if we play nice that the problems will just go away.
That logic is deadly as was shown on 9/11. The same mindset that allowed that to happen is the status quo of Obama.
I am usually not into blaming the victim....but our actions during the 90's, and now today are going to get more people killed. I blame 9/11 on Clinton not taking Bin Laden seriously even after multiple direct attacks on US during his 2 terms. Even turning down an offer to take him into our custody.
This is NO DIFFERENT than that. All the jihads are going to see is a new weak president, and push him until he gives up because the cost is too great for us. Its the classic liberal strategy for anything military. Show a presence, and as soon as we suffer casualties pull out and forget about the reason why we were there in the first place.
If I were AQ right now I would not attack in a big way. Id do more of the Hassan type deals in the US if possible but mostly overseas. Obama is NOT gong to react to "little" attacks, and they will get away with it just like they did before. A big attack would unite American's again. Little attacks keep us divided. The liberals can blame it on US "imperialism", and Obama can give a couple flashy speeches and be done with it.
Don't forget our current CINC is FRIENDS with a domestic terrorist.
IMO, these trials for known and proven terrorists should cost no more than $0.31 a piece. I'll let you figure out the details... :)
Do these SOB's get all the rights under the constitution or only some of the rights.
The Bill of Rights guantees the right to a speedy trial. The Defense can request the dismisal of the charges based on the violation of the right to a speedy trial.
These scum have no rights under the Geneva/Hague convention. They were illegal combatants, no uniforms, and committed war crimes against unarmed defenseless civilians. A firing squad is for honorable soldiers, these scum should be hung immediately.
Death to Terrorist.
Semper Fidelis,
Terry Hoover
SWATcop556
11-13-09, 23:35
The victim's families are outraged and all over the news.
I'm just trying to figure out how enemy combatants in a war (yes it is a war on terror regardless if the current administration thinks that title is not PC) are entitled to our rights as Americans?
I'll go over to another country and declare war then kill a few thousand people and see if I get a civilian trial.
Bullshit. I'm just waiting for the terror attack during the trial.
We are giving these ****s a platform for their bullshit. Good Lord!!
LockenLoad
11-14-09, 10:42
Not to mention, the army of lawyers we will have to pay for, Thanks Obama selling America out 1 right at a time
This thread shows "moved", but...
I merged two threads together but the posts were already out of order before I did so. There must be something up with the servers. I know we recently, because we're growing, moved to a clustered environment. I wonder if the two servers are out of sync with each other.
Do these SOB's get all the rights under the constitution or only some of the rights.
The Bill of Rights guantees the right to a speedy trial. The Defense can request the dismisal of the charges based on the violation of the right to a speedy trial.
These scum have no rights under the Geneva/Hague convention. They were illegal combatants, no uniforms, and committed war crimes against unarmed defenseless civilians. A firing squad is for honorable soldiers, these scum should be hung immediately.
Death to Terrorist.
Semper Fidelis,
Terry Hoover
They have all the rights for a fair trial that you would get even though they are not citizens.
This is probably the biggest sell out of the America people in the history of the United States. Of course the ACLU is loving it!
RogerinTPA
11-14-09, 11:14
The whole thing makes me want to puke. They are terrorist combatants, not uniformed combatants. They have no rights period. They should be kept in Getmo, until after the war, then tried....in Getmo in a military court.
Not to mention, the army of lawyers we will have to pay for, Thanks Obama selling America out 1 right at a time
Yep, all on the tax payers dime! I can't imagine their lawyers will be real popular during and after the trial...
Business_Casual
11-14-09, 11:44
Regardless of what I think, I hope that the Administration gets what they publically say they want out of this.
I am afraid, however, that they won't and that the real motives are to degrade the USA and make her citizens more reliant on the Government.
Bowing? An American President bowing?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-japan.html
M_P
Submariner
11-14-09, 13:05
This is really, really bad for the United States. These guys are going to get the same rights and you and I and American lawyers are going to represent them and try and win for their clients.
...
Yep, all on the tax payers dime! I can't imagine their lawyers will be real popular during and after the trial...
I disagree. The American attorneys' job is to make the .gov prove every element of its case and convince the jury that there is reasonable doubt that the crime, as charged, was committed by the defendant.
Requiring the DOJ to do this whenever the wrath of the federal government comes down on any individual is really, really good for the citizens of these United States.
I disagree. The American attorneys' job is to make the .gov prove every element of its case and convince the jury that there is reasonable doubt that the crime, as charged, was committed by the defendant.
Requiring the DOJ to do this whenever the wrath of the federal government comes down on any individual is really, really good for the citizens of these United States.
The wrath of the federal Government? How can you use the term "wrath" in this case? And as far as individuals go I don't consider these guys "individuals" and I don't see how any of this is good for the citizens of the United States.
Business_Casual
11-14-09, 14:32
I disagree. The American attorneys' job is to make the .gov prove every element of its case and convince the jury that there is reasonable doubt that the crime, as charged, was committed by the defendant.
Requiring the DOJ to do this whenever the wrath of the federal government comes down on any individual is really, really good for the citizens of these United States.
One perhaps may think differently when the discovery motions include intelligence methods and sources.
Also, the defense attorney will not be under oath when he comes out of the courtroom and speaks to the media - so any lie or misdirection he wants to peddle will be repeated all over the globe. He can say "they tortured him" and "he didn't confess" etc. The prosecution will not have the same lattitude - see Bill Clinton's grand jury probe as an example. There is nothing good to come of this.
M_P
CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!!!
What a friggin" joke the admin is turning out to be. I really hope the people that voted for this guy got what they wanted, because he is going to be the final straw that breaks America's back.
I like to consider myself a old school NCO. I cuss, raise hell, and tell Joe what is on my mind no matter whose feelings get hurt. I have raised my daughter's with the same mindset. I have been against PC since that term reared it's ugly head back around '94. There is no room for hurt feelings and PC when you are in the CZ. The only concern leaders should have is whether or not yo have some one who goes against the grain often enough to cause a break down in the good order and discipline of the unit. Logic says to hold military tribunals for the scum. If the CINC doesn't want the political fall out of hold U.S. sponsored tribunals, he should send there sorry ass to the Hague for military tribunals. They handled the Bosnian issue fairly adequately (although no death sentences). I will be seriously pissed if these terrorist get off because of rights they don't deserve (i.e. Miranda). I rapidly deployed as a newly married 21 year old back in 1990 for what was supposed to be a war that would settle atleast the Iraq portion of the Middle east issue. 19 years later i'm still in and we are in the midst of what can only be called a generational war. Logic and common sense says that we should be taking the fight the terrorist. We should be wage war with all tools available to us. We should be prosecuting this war with precision and ruthlessness. We should not be trying detainees as common criminals. I am a warrior not a policeman. We only have prisoners because 1) they gave up or 2) they survived the multiple GSWs that we inflicted with initial contact. Policeman serve and protect while the military closes and kills are countries enemies with overwhelming fire power. We don't read Miranda and the only rights are prisoners have is the right not to be shot in the head after we disarm them. Forgive my rant but i'm pissed off and sleep deprived.
Doc,
I like the Army NCO's core values, Candor, Courage, Competency and Compassion. My point is with Candor there is no room for PC. Just tell it the way it is. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. These men are the enemy not criminals. Gitmo is the perfect place for their trial, imprisonment or execution. If they are convicted they should be covered in aviation fuel and lit on fire to burn to death. I know that will not fly so hang them or shoot them. Elections have consequences and unfortunately this is one of them. The administration no longer calls it the War on Terror. This is pre 9-11-2001 thinking and is going to get using trouble.
I believe that what's really going to be on trial here is the previous administration's policies and practices.
IMO, these trials for known and proven terrorists should cost no more than $0.31 a piece. I'll let you figure out the details... :)
Well said! If we line them up head to head we could spring for $1.00 and get it done with one .50 cal.
LockenLoad
11-15-09, 14:22
I disagree. The American attorneys' job is to make the .gov prove every element of its case and convince the jury that there is reasonable doubt that the crime, as charged, was committed by the defendant.
Requiring the DOJ to do this whenever the wrath of the federal government comes down on any individual is really, really good for the citizens of these United States.
um they are not citizens, and I could care less if the fell out the back of a C130, they are the enemy kill them end of story, gitmo was a bad idea we should have kept them in country and when we got intel we wanted, well maybe they should disappear, mark my words many of the ones released will come back to haunt us.
I believe that what's really going to be on trial here is the previous administration's policies and practices.
I really hope it doesn't turn into some political sideshow.Although I do not put anything past this sniveling administration in their efforts to try to portray the previous adminstration in a bad light.
I can tell you guys one thing,9/11 killed alot more than 3000 people on that day.A buddy of mine was a first responder on that fateful morning,so he currently receives a monthly newsletter from other 9/11 first responders.The main story this month is about the 400 first responders who passed away in the last 2 months from illness' brought on from exposure to the toxic cloud formed from the building collapse.These men are for the most part under 50 years of age and were otherwise healthy.They're all dying from cancer/leukemia.
If the government tries to do anything but hammer these terrorists,there are alot of people/families,who are already fed up with govt's handling of the aftermath of 9/11,are going to explode.
When folks were voting to "Change", they got what they wanted. A change back to the pre-911 mindset. The new thinking is "This isn't a war, these are crimes." Its a law enforcement issue and that's why the move to the court system. A war means that we could and should do anything to eliminate the enemy. A law enforcement mindset means lets let the courts settle things.
You must ask yourself: which mindset will keep us in the US safe? Personally, I don't think that radical islam wants to play by the rules... Do we as a country have the time needed to correct this mindset?
I really hope it doesn't turn into some political sideshow.Although I do not put anything past this sniveling administration in their efforts to try to portray the previous adminstration in a bad light.
I can tell you guys one thing,9/11 killed alot more than 3000 people on that day.A buddy of mine was a first responder on that fateful morning,so he currently receives a monthly newsletter from other 9/11 first responders.The main story this month is about the 400 first responders who passed away in the last 2 months from illness' brought on from exposure to the toxic cloud formed from the building collapse.These men are for the most part under 50 years of age and were otherwise healthy.They're all dying from cancer/leukemia.
If the government tries to do anything but hammer these terrorists,there are alot of people/families,who are already fed up with govt's handling of the aftermath of 9/11,are going to explode.
We need to remember what they did to this country. We need to go back to basics and “locate close with and destroy the enemy.” The cost has been huge in lives and treasure. I did not know the fatality numbers were so high for our first responders. That pisses me off even more. It does not surprise me. I have hairy cell leukemia that is in remission. I was diagnosed about 6 years ago. In my "google" search to find out more I found that exposure to high levels of benzene was a known cause. HCL is most often found in old men, I was 31! I'm convinced the Al-Brugan oil fires I lived in and around during the gulf war is the cause. I am sure some of you remember; Day was often as dark as night and night could be as light as day.
I thought I had a damn good tan until I had a chance to take a real shower with hot water and soap. The oil scrubbed right off. And before you tease me about my hygiene, :D I had a sponge bath with about a canteen cup of COLD water every few days. I'd have to pull my journal out but I think it was almost 45 days with- out a shower. When I came home I was so happy for the little things we all take for granted, a toilet/shower/sink and a bed.
Okay that is my rant for now.
We need to remember what they did to this country. We need to go back to basics and “locate close with and destroy the enemy.” The cost has been huge in lives and treasure. I did not know the fatality numbers were so high for our first responders. That pisses me off even more. It does not surprise me. I have hairy cell leukemia that is in remission. I was diagnosed about 6 years ago. In my "google" search to find out more I found that exposure to high levels of benzene was a known cause. HCL is most often found in old men, I was 31! I'm convinced the Al-Brugan oil fires I lived in and around during the gulf war is the cause. I am sure some of you remember; Day was often as dark as night and night could be as light as day.
I thought I had a damn good tan until I had a chance to take a real shower with hot water and soap. The oil scrubbed right off. And before you tease me about my hygiene, :D I had a sponge bath with about a canteen cup of COLD water every few days. I'd have to pull my journal out but I think it was almost 45 days with- out a shower. When I came home I was so happy for the little things we all take for granted, a toilet/shower/sink and a bed.
Okay that is my rant for now.
Damn Devil Dog,I'm sorry to hear about your illness and especially at such a young age.Thank God for your remission.My Dad just came out of a 12 year leukemia remission.He has CLL ( chronic lymphomic leukemia ). I am glad to see you are proactive in the research of your illness.Knowledge is your best defense.I'll give you my Dads email info because he knows a boatload about the different types of leukemia and the new,cutting edge treatments coming "on-line".We will keep you in our prayers.
Now,getting back to the op and my op,yeah,the amount of people who have passed away so far,who are dying and those who are presently being diagnosed as well as those who are developing symptoms of serious,life ending illness' are truly staggering.A buddy of mine who happen's to be a year older than me(I'm 37),his body is riddled with cancerous tumors.Evertime the doctors cut the tumors out or radiate them,they go away temporarily.Then 6 months or so later,they return.He knowns deep down inside its terminal.I can see it in his eyes whenever we talk.It sad,not only because I know this guy since 1978 but also because he has a family.A wife and three children.My friend "Joe" was day arrived there on day 4 as part of a Verizon telephone contingent who was there to repair and restore comm.'s.
My uncle who was a very highly decorated FDNY fireman,was there right from the get go.He's developing lung issues from what the dr.'s are saying is asbestos exposure.We're all hoping it doesn't advance into something cancerous.If it doesn't,he will be the exception,not the norm.
Like I had stated previously,9/11 is still killing people to this day and will continue to due so.To put salt on the wound,the government is denying the majority of the first responders the extra health care they need to survive.That is really pissing people the **** off around here!! To deny these guys what they need is reprehensible.
That being said,if this case is ****ed up by the government,I think this city could lash out.Lets keep our fingers crossed for everyones good,that these lowlife terrorists get the max that the American justice system will allow.
Belmont31R
11-15-09, 17:25
um they are not citizens, and I could care less if the fell out the back of a C130, they are the enemy kill them end of story, gitmo was a bad idea we should have kept them in country and when we got intel we wanted, well maybe they should disappear, mark my words many of the ones released will come back to haunt us.
They already are which another slap in the face to this country.
This should be handled the same way the Nurninburg trials were. Military court and quick executions.
This whole BS about criminal courts, prison in the US, et cetera is nothing but a shame on us. We have become so weak a country we cannot even effectively handle POW's and terrorists anymore.
John_Wayne777
11-15-09, 19:29
Yep, all on the tax payers dime! I can't imagine their lawyers will be real popular during and after the trial...
Law schools will name awards after them.
Damn Devil Dog,I'm sorry to hear about your illness and especially at such a young age.Thank God for your remission.My Dad just came out of a 12 year leukemia remission.He has CLL ( chronic lymphomic leukemia ). I am glad to see you are proactive in the research of your illness.Knowledge is your best defense.I'll give you my Dads email info because he knows a boatload about the different types of leukemia and the new,cutting edge treatments coming "on-line".We will keep you in our prayers.
Now,getting back to the op and my op,yeah,the amount of people who have passed away so far,who are dying and those who are presently being diagnosed as well as those who are developing symptoms of serious,life ending illness' are truly staggering.A buddy of mine who happen's to be a year older than me(I'm 37),his body is riddled with cancerous tumors.Evertime the doctors cut the tumors out or radiate them,they go away temporarily.Then 6 months or so later,they return.He knowns deep down inside its terminal.I can see it in his eyes whenever we talk.It sad,not only because I know this guy since 1978 but also because he has a family.A wife and three children.My friend "Joe" was day arrived there on day 4 as part of a Verizon telephone contingent who was there to repair and restore comm.'s.
My uncle who was a very highly decorated FDNY fireman,was there right from the get go.He's developing lung issues from what the dr.'s are saying is asbestos exposure.We're all hoping it doesn't advance into something cancerous.If it doesn't,he will be the exception,not the norm.
Like I had stated previously,9/11 is still killing people to this day and will continue to due so.To put salt on the wound,the government is denying the majority of the first responders the extra health care they need to survive.That is really pissing people the **** off around here!! To deny these guys what they need is reprehensible.
That being said,if this case is ****ed up by the government,I think this city could lash out.Lets keep our fingers crossed for everyones good,that these lowlife terrorists get the max that the American justice system will allow.
Thanks Lee, HCL is CLL too. Say hi to your dad for me.
Dave Berryhill
11-15-09, 22:14
I believe that what's really going to be on trial here is the previous administration's policies and practices.
I can't come up with any other reason for having the trial in civilian court other than to create a distraction to draw attention away from the health care bill. It looks like there is going to be a lot of activity at Gitmo soon to see if they can close that ASAP too.
What is our brilliant Attorney General going to do if the lawyers for those dirtbags win a motion for a change of venue and they have to move the trial? That's the first thing I'd do if I was their attorney. I don't think it would be that difficult to prove that you can't get an impartial jury in NYC.
The only thing to do is make a lot of noise about this. Barry may or may not reverse his decision but he'll wind up looking even more incompetent either way.
Belmont31R
11-15-09, 22:33
They also released the information on Friday afternoon, while the "Boss" was out of the Country. Remember what a circus the OJ trial was. I cannot even begin to imagine the mess this will be.
The majority of the Obama news releases are Friday night affairs....;)
They also released the information on Friday afternoon, while the "Boss" was out of the Country. Remember what a circus the OJ trial was. I cannot even begin to imagine the mess this will be.
They also released the information on Friday afternoon, while the "Boss" was out of the Country. Remember what a circus the OJ trial was. I cannot even begin to imagine the mess this will be.
That's really all this is; a dog and pony show for the international stage. It's not about bringing these guys to justice it's about apologizing and appeasing the world for the last eight years.
These guys didn’t just commit a felony they committed an act of war and publicly stated (bragged) so. Why are we treating them as though they committed armed assault?
variablebinary
11-16-09, 08:11
More people killed than Pearl Harbor and we are treating them like shoplifters.
I consider myself a bit more 'liberal' when it comes to legal issues only, and I think this is a VERY bad idea. As was stated this was an act of war and not mass murder. It makes me sick to think that this is happening.
To many Americans who think they are 'enlightened' are truly dumb. It very much reminds me when I was growing up with my brother. Smart as hell kid, he had an IQ test and was approached by MENSA etc. We were walking down the street when I grabbed him and told him we were taking a detour. He bitched and moaned and I had to physically drag him. When he asked me why we had to take a different route I asked him "You notice anything about the group of kids on the corner?
He just answered 'Not really, they all seemed to like the color blue and are fans of the LA Dodgers." I just shook my head and told him that he is the dumbest smart kid I know.
As a side, I am scared that this 'presidency' is going to make the Military into a paper tiger again. Looks great and formidable on paper, but that is about it.
Dave Berryhill
11-16-09, 09:38
...As a side, I am scared that this 'presidency' is going to make the Military into a paper tiger again. Looks great and formidable on paper, but that is about it.
He may go down in history as the first president to have citizens march to the white house carrying pitchforks and torches.
30 cal slut
11-16-09, 09:51
I can't come up with any other reason for having the trial in civilian court other than to create a distraction to draw attention away from the health care bill.
I don't fully understand the political implications of this decision.
However (and I must point out IANAL), it appears, from a jurisprudential perspective, that we are returning to the Clinton-era attitude of treating terroristic acts as a crime, instead of (for lack of a better wording) an act of war.
John_Wayne777
11-16-09, 11:31
That's precisely the fear...and we all know how that ended up.
Belmont31R
11-16-09, 12:21
I don't fully understand the political implications of this decision.
However (and I must point out IANAL), it appears, from a jurisprudential perspective, that we are returning to the Clinton-era attitude of treating terroristic acts as a crime, instead of (for lack of a better wording) an act of war.
That is the liberal way. Look how Clinton reacted to multiple AQ attacks during his 2 terms. Embassy bombings, 93 WTC, AQ involvement in Somalia, et cetera.
We were even offered Bin Laden on a silver platter, and turned down the offer.
This is what many people fail to understand. When you treat these people with kid gloves, and just hope the problem goes away through lack of response AQ only sees that as motivation to keep ramping attacks up. Our lack of response during the 90's directly allowed 9/11 to happen. Clinton cut the military budgets and manpower, cut our intel budgets, and refused to properly react to terror attacks and threats. Obama is doing the same thing, and giving off the same impression.
How does this make us look better to the rest of the world? Why do we care what another country has to say about how deal with terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11? It was our people who were killed on our soil. They need to **** off, and mind their own business. They will get a fair trial in a military court. This is nothing but a political stunt by Obama to further appease the world opinion instead of putting our country and citizens first. Another "we messed up in the past" bullshit response while thumbing his finger at America.
And I do think he is evil. Miranda rights to POW's caught on the battlefield half way across the world? Refuses to call Ft. Hood a terror attack. Friends with a domestic terrorist almost his entire adult life? I think at some level he sympathizes with these people of people because he sees himself as a fighter too. Both fighting the classic evil American capitalist empire, and put an end to American imperialism and greed.
What I think is a joke is two incidents:
He called a Police Officer (who was white) "stupid" for arresting a black Harvard Prof. before even knowing all the facts.
He is trying to stop people from 'rushing to judgement' when a Muslim who saw himself on Jihad killed 13 and wounded around 30. Also, REFUSING to call this a terrorist attack and thinking the guy was just mentally distrubed. Even though the evidence is now coming out stronger and stronger this guy was on Jihad and that some of the alphabet agencies knew.
Again, my sources are only public and wouldn't have some of the information others could and can only base my observations on that.
Some of you are older than me, some of you are younger and I am sure some of you are about my age (37). I remember my parents buying our house with a mortgage interest rate of 16%! As a little boy I was proud Ronald Regan was our president. I am sure it was because of how my parents felt. I remember the Iran Hostages being released following Regan's inauguration. I also remember feeling safe. He made this country strong and he made the world a safer place for all of us.
When we were attacked on 09-11-01 I was home on a day off. I think it was a Tuesday. I called my wife and told her to turn the TV on. While she was the second plane hit and I started swearing and yelling at the TV. I knew immediately as many of you did that someone had attacked us. I remember seeing all the things we saw that day, cops, fire fighters and regular guys and gals helping each other out. Damn it I'm a Red Sox Fan and I proudly wore one of those Yankee looking FD NY PD hats until I gave it to a friend/Yankee's fan. You could not buy a flag for the longest time because everyone wanted one. We came together and had our shit together as a nation. I am disgusted at how quickly people forget what happened in NYC, DC and PA.
We need to take the fight to them and keep the bastards on the run. Our military is full of warriors ready and willing to protect this country. We need to give them what they need to do the job and thank them every chance we get.
I hope things do not get too screwed up in the next 3 years and that we have a new Ronald Regan in the White house after the 2012 election.
Business_Casual
11-18-09, 13:27
Did anyone see Senator Kyl's awesome question to Holder today?
"If he already asked to plead guilty and be executed, how can a trial have a better outcome?" (paraphrased)
M_P
30 cal slut
11-19-09, 07:24
interesting view.
A TERRORIST TRIAL IN NEW YORK CITY
By Ben West and Fred Burton
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder announced Nov. 13 that the U.S. Justice Department had decided to try five suspected terrorists currently being held at Guantanamo Bay in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, located in lower Manhattan. The five suspects -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Walid Muhammad Salih Mubarek bin Attash, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, Ali Abdul-Aziz Ali and Mustafa Ahmed al-Hawsawi -- are all accused of being involved in the 9/11 plot, with Mohammed describing himself as the mastermind in a 2003 confession.
The announcement follows from U.S. President Barack Obama's first executive order, which he signed on Jan. 22, to close the U.S. military detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and another executive order to suspend the military tribunals set up under the Bush administration to try suspected terrorists. Holder's decision has generated much debate and highlighted the legal murkiness concerning the status of Guantanamo detainees and how best to bring them to justice.
Beyond this murkiness is the perceived security threat of bringing five suspected terrorists accused of plotting the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to trial in New York City. Former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said on CNN's "State of the Union" that he thought holding the trial in New York would put residents at risk. And Andrew McCarthy, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, wrote in The New Republic that the trial will "create a public-safely nightmare for New York City." Numerous other observers and media outlets around the world have voiced similar security concerns about the New York trial.
Although there has been much criticism of the decision to hold the trial in New York City, when it comes to prosecuting terror suspects, the Southern District of New York knows what it's doing. The staff of the U.S. attorney's office for the Southern District of New York has gained considerable knowledge and expertise prosecuting terror cases over the years, just as the U.S. Marshal Special Operations Group (SOG) has gained much experience providing security for those trials. It was in the Southern District of New York in 1995 that Omar Abdel Rahman, aka the Blind Sheikh, was tried for the so-called Landmarks Plot of 1993 and received a life sentence. In 1996, Abdel Basit (aka Ramzi Yousef) and two co-conspirators were also tried in the Southern District and sentenced to life in prison for their roles in the Bojinka Plot, which also included an indictment for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (the staff of the Southern District has been familiar with Mohammed for some time now). The attackers behind the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies were also prosecuted in the Southern District of New York and sentenced to life imprisonment. Few other courts have so much experience handling and prosecuting high-profile terrorism cases, so it should have come as no surprise that Holder named the district as the venue for the upcoming trial. On top of all this, the World Trade Center towers were also in the Southern District of New York, putting the deadliest site of the 9/11 attacks under the Southern District's jurisdiction.
The case will be prosecuted jointly by the offices of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, led by Preet Bharara, and the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, led by Neil H. MacBride. The Eastern District of Virginia has also successfully prosecuted several terrorism cases, including those of John Walker Lindh in 2002, the Virginia Jihad Network in 2005 and Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.
While some believe that trying the so-called "Gitmo Five" in New York City will result in more terrorist attacks in the city, STRATFOR does not anticipate a marked increase in the number of plots or attacks. New York City has long been a popular target for radical Islamists -- there have been nine known plots involving targets in New York uncovered since the 9/11 attacks, including two in the past six months. In May 2009, four men were arrested for attempting to detonate explosives outside a synagogue in the Bronx, and in September, Najibullah Zazi was arrested for plotting to detonate backpack explosives on trains in New York City. Other plots have included a 2007 plan to detonate fuel tanks at John F. Kennedy International Airport, a 2006 plot to detonate explosives in the Holland Tunnel and a 2004 plot to attack a subway station near Madison Square Garden.
New York City remains an alluring target for jihadists because of its symbolism. Home to more than 8 million people, it is the largest city in the United States and a global financial and media center. Whatever happens there gets more exposure and publicity than virtually anywhere else in the world. It is also a perceived center of Jewish wealth and culture (New York has the second-largest Jewish population behind Tel Aviv), compounding the threat from Islamist radicals. New York City will remain a terrorist target for many reasons other than the Gitmo Five trial. It is also interesting to note that none of the city's other high-profile terrorism trials has ever resulted in a retaliatory attack against the city.
In addition to the federal prosecutors who will be involved in the trial having experience dealing with terrorism cases, the New York Police Department has the training, manpower and focus to provide effective physical security. Federal agents, including those of the U.S. Marshal SOG, will be primarily responsible for handling the five suspects and providing security inside the federal courthouse. The building is one of the most secure federal courthouses in the country, equipped with anti-vehicle borne explosive device barricades, 24-hour guard posts and high-resolution video cameras. The U.S. marshals will be augmented by NYPD "Hercules" teams (designed to provide a surge of police presence in an area to prevent or disrupt criminal and terrorist operations) and will likely place sniper teams on nearby rooftops for added security. Vehicular and pedestrian traffic around the courthouse will be severely limited, with nearby streets closed to traffic and nearby subway entrances closed to riders.
During the trial, the five defendants will be held at the Metropolitan Correctional Complex, which is connected to the courthouse via a third-of-a-mile-long underground tunnel. This significantly reduces the threat of terrorist attack or a disruption of the proceedings by allowing security forces to control the geography of the trial venue and spot unusual activity. Another geographic benefit is the fact that Manhattan is an island with limited access points (bridges and tunnels), which makes it easier to seal off the area and control who or what gets in or out. These factors do not necessarily preclude an attack, especially a suicide attack in which the perpetrator is undeterred by the risk of death, but do decrease the options of an attacker and increase the options of law enforcement personnel in dealing with the potential risks.
Because the courthouse will be under such tight security, any attacker able to penetrate the island cordon and slip into the area would likely go after softer targets surrounding the building. The NYPD will be responsible for protecting areas outside the courthouse and will probably create a secure buffer around the complex, the depth of which will depend on the severity of any given threat. Police would have the wherewithal to put whole sections of the city under heavy lockdown and provide a level of physical security designed to thwart terrorist activities that have reached the latter stages (deployment, attack and escape). This buffer would both protect softer targets nearby and make it that much harder for would-be attackers to infiltrate the courthouse. The NYPD also has the intelligence-collecting capabilities (informants, undercover officers, surveillants, analysts, etc.) to keep a close eye on any potential threat in the area leading up to and during the trial. The NYPD developed these capabilities with a vengeance following the 9/11 attacks, and in the years since it has become quite adept at conducting preventative counterterrorism investigations rather than just reactive ones.
In addition to the NYPD, other first-responders in New York -- the fire department, emergency medical services and transportation agencies -- are experienced and well-trained in dealing with terrorist attacks and can support security efforts surrounding the trial. Given the 9/11 experience, Manhattan residents and workers are also well-versed in emergency action plans and preparations.
Certainly, the fact that such a high-profile trial will be held in New York City will temporarily add to the workload of federal and municipal security and emergency personnel, but in some ways it will be little more than a routine effort. The city is used to high-profile events, regularly hosting such events as the U.N. General Assembly, with its attendant flow of international VIPs. New York City has been and will remain a prime terrorist target, and the people responsible for maintaining security in the city are very good at what they do. Indeed, Manhattan -- given its recent history of civic trauma and intense focus on counterterrorism -- may very well possess the safest civilian court in the country.
This report may be forwarded or republished on your website with attribution to www.stratfor.com.
Did anyone see Senator Kyl's awesome question to Holder today?
"If he already asked to plead guilty and be executed, how can a trial have a better outcome?" (paraphrased)
M_P
Yep. My understanding is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has already agreed to enter a guilty plea to the terrorist charges and requests the death penalty be implemented immediately.
Our esteemed Attorney General Holder has said, "No, sir. We will try your case in a civilian court, spend millions of dollars to convict you and then request the death penalty for your acts." WTF??:confused:
Belmont31R
11-19-09, 14:27
Paraphrasing....
Graham: When have we ever tried an enemy combatant in civilian court?
Eric Holder: uh oh ummm
Graham: Never.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTmLKUT817Y
Belmont31R
11-19-09, 15:31
1. Does the US Justice Dept. have the authority to do this?
2. Attorney General Holder seems awful confident/ cocky on the outcome; especially when he can not control what happens with the judge and jury.
3. What about discovery/ interrogation issues?
4. I also believe that the previous admin. will be the real people on trial here (part of obama's world apology).
5. I believe this puts a huge bullseye on NY.
6. For all that say NYPD and other agencies can make it safe.....Yeah but how expensive will it be to do so?
7. Isn't it interesting that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed requested a trial in NY many years ago?
8. This belongs in a military tribunal and sets a dangerous precedence for the future.
Its reckless is what it is.
He can get a perfectly fair trial in military court, and will get the same sentence (death).
So why are they so hell bent on a civilian court? To just be different than Bush? So because of some half cocked dumbass "world opinion" we are going to throw away over 230 years of tradition and precedence?
And it also seems putting these people like Holder before Congress is worthless because they simply refuse to answer the questions. They have canned responses and talking points they just throw out no matter what the question is. Should be held in contempt of Congress for refusing to answer questions.
Can you imagine this admin in charge of the Nurnburg trials?
I'm just trying to figure out how enemy combatants in a war (yes it is a war on terror regardless if the current administration thinks that title is not PC) are entitled to our rights as Americans?
And what are our rights as Americans? Where do they come from? The Constitution does not give us our rights, it only guarantees or protects them. If they come from some power outside of the Constitution does that not make them universal for all men?
What about the war or drugs or obesity, should they also be subject to a military tribunal?
rickrock305
11-21-09, 07:35
8. This belongs in a military tribunal and sets a dangerous precedence for the future.
So why are they so hell bent on a civilian court? To just be different than Bush? So because of some half cocked dumbass "world opinion" we are going to throw away over 230 years of tradition and precedence?
actually the precedent has been set. we have previously tried terror suspects in civilian courts, not military tribunals.
did you guys miss this, or conveniently ignore it?
Although there has been much criticism of the decision to hold the trial in New York City, when it comes to prosecuting terror suspects, the Southern District of New York knows what it's doing. The staff of the U.S. attorney's office for the Southern District of New York has gained considerable knowledge and expertise prosecuting terror cases over the years, just as the U.S. Marshal Special Operations Group (SOG) has gained much experience providing security for those trials. It was in the Southern District of New York in 1995 that Omar Abdel Rahman, aka the Blind Sheikh, was tried for the so-called Landmarks Plot of 1993 and received a life sentence. In 1996, Abdel Basit (aka Ramzi Yousef) and two co-conspirators were also tried in the Southern District and sentenced to life in prison for their roles in the Bojinka Plot, which also included an indictment for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (the staff of the Southern District has been familiar with Mohammed for some time now). The attackers behind the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies were also prosecuted in the Southern District of New York and sentenced to life imprisonment. Few other courts have so much experience handling and prosecuting high-profile terrorism cases, so it should have come as no surprise that Holder named the district as the venue for the upcoming trial. On top of all this, the World Trade Center towers were also in the Southern District of New York, putting the deadliest site of the 9/11 attacks under the Southern District's jurisdiction.
The case will be prosecuted jointly by the offices of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, led by Preet Bharara, and the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, led by Neil H. MacBride. The Eastern District of Virginia has also successfully prosecuted several terrorism cases, including those of John Walker Lindh in 2002, the Virginia Jihad Network in 2005 and Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.
And what are our rights as Americans? Where do they come from? The Constitution does not give us our rights, it only guarantees or protects them. If they come from some power outside of the Constitution does that not make them universal for all men?
What about the war or drugs or obesity, should they also be subject to a military tribunal?
Huh?
Personally, I'd like them all to be Leonidasized just like the Persian messenger. That's the justice the vermin deserve. That's the justice they understand.
rickrock305
11-21-09, 08:05
Huh?
Personally, I'd like them all to be Leonidasized just like the Persian messenger. That's the justice the vermin deserve. That's the justice they understand.
do you not understand that this opinion makes you more like them than you realize?
i swear more and more americans are sounding just like the Taliban every day.
do you not understand that this opinion makes you more like them than you realize?
i swear more and more americans are sounding just like the Taliban every day.
Oh, not at all. For you see, I have a brain and am able to discriminate and see the difference between good and evil. Are we more like Nazis if we hold Nazi leaders accoutable? Are we serial killers when we try and execute a Ted Bundy? Do we become rapists if we commit justifiable homicide against a rapist caught in the act of sodomizing a seven year old? Do you become rabid after killing a rabid dog terrorizing your neighborhood.
The Left would have us believe that it is wrong to discriminate. Hardly. It is correct and would solve much would that we put that silly notion behind us forever.
I have met Taliban. I assure you, we are nothing close.
rickrock305
11-21-09, 17:00
Oh, not at all. For you see, I have a brain and am able to discriminate and see the difference between good and evil.
lmfao. so much for a rational conversation.
lmfao. so much for a rational conversation.
That was not a shot at you, it was a general statement that you have once again taken out of context to instigate.
How much longer will this blatantly deliberate nonsense continue?
rickrock305
11-21-09, 17:32
That was not a shot at you, it was a general statement that you have once again taken out of context to instigate.
How much longer will this blatantly deliberate nonsense continue?
i didn't take it as a shot against me. but i can't hope to have a rational discussion with someone who think they've got the market cornered on good vs. evil.
how much longer will your blatant nonsensical personal attacks continue? the fact that you need to attack me personally instead of my points shows the level of intellect you operate at.
how much longer will your blatant nonsensical personal attacks continue? the fact that you need to attack me personally instead of my points shows the level of intellect you operate at.
Have at it, brother. I couldn't give less of a shit anymore.
Moving on...
rickrock305
11-21-09, 17:51
Have at it, brother. I couldn't give less of a shit anymore.
Moving on...
this is what, the fifth time you've said this? and yet you still follow me around from thread to thread to attack me personally. its quite obvious you give plenty of sh*t, pun intended.
... but i can't hope to have a rational discussion with someone who think they've got the market cornered on good vs. evil.
What is it like to walk around the earth with no conviction, no principles, no code? It sounds very lonely and all in all, kinda sad to me.
rickrock305
11-21-09, 19:04
What is it like to walk around the earth with no conviction, no principles, no code? It sounds very lonely and all in all, kinda sad to me.
i wouldn't know.
if ignorance is bliss though, you must be a pretty happy guy!
i wouldn't know.
Oh thats right, according to you and your ilk, you can't "know" anything...
Did anyone see Senator Kyl's awesome question to Holder today?
"If he already asked to plead guilty and be executed, how can a trial have a better outcome?" (paraphrased)
M_P
I did see it and agree. His trial should last a few days, let him plead guilty and ask to be executed.
rickrock305
11-21-09, 19:21
Oh thats right, according to you and your ilk, you can't "know" anything...
WTF are you talking about? :confused:
I can leave and you can just make up my arguments and argue with yourself if you want! :D :rolleyes:
John_Wayne777
11-21-09, 19:29
do you not understand that this opinion makes you more like them than you realize?
I have a suggestion:
I suggest you refrain from comparing M4C members to terrorists.
Everybody knock off the personal BS now.
I can leave and you can just make up my arguments and argue with yourself if you want! :D :rolleyes:
We couldn't possibly be so lucky.
But since you have expelled numerous personal insults since being warned earlier today, maybe we won't need to be.
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