View Full Version : Headspace issue?
Lemme ask you guys a question. My AR is still not operating. I just put a new barrel on it to fix the gas port alignment issue. That's good to go now.
New problem. It won't go into battery with a round chambered easily (forward assist is useless in this case) and it's very difficult to get the bolt lugs to unlock if it is in battery. I mean nearly impossible. This is with .223 in 5.56 chambers too by the way.
This sounds to me like a headspace issue. I don't have a go or no-go gauge. I ordered a go gauge a few minutes ago. I do however have another AR. I took my RRA bolt apart and tried it and vice versa. The new bolt works in my RRA, the RRA bolt doesn't work in the new AR. I compared the bolts they appear identical. With no round chambered I can twist either bolt in my RRA chamber. With no round chambered I can just barely get the bolt to twist in the new AR.
Headspace is too tight, right? I mean if it won't close on a .223 it definitely won't on a 5.56.
I'm going to wait til the go gauge comes in and check it before I call the company about another new barrel. Suggestions on other things I can check? Ideas? Fixes?
I assume you’re not using reloads. Try some different ammo.
Would different ammo really matter? I was trying to shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chamber. It's shorter, albeit very minimally. I tried 2 kinds of factory .223. If I could find an ammo that worked I would be stuck using that ammo exclusively. That would make for a worthless rifle IMO.
What type of barrel are you using now? What type of AR do you have? Who makes the BCG?
Are you sure that the barrel was seated all the way into the upper with alignment pin going into the notch?
Have you tried to chamber a round by pulling back the charging handle and allowing the BCG to fly forward the correct way instead of feeding it forward?
Is the gas tube aligned properly?
Why did you buy a GO gage when the TM uses a Field gage? Did you get a 5.56 gage or a .223 gage? There are differences.
Try being a little more specific with what components you are using so we don't have to play 20 questions. My guess is that something is seriously out of spec, or assembled improperly.
Lemme ask you guys a question. My AR is still not operating. I just put a new barrel on it to fix the gas port alignment issue. That's good to go now.
New problem. It won't go into battery with a round chambered easily (forward assist is useless in this case) and it's very difficult to get the bolt lugs to unlock if it is in battery. I mean nearly impossible. This is with .223 in 5.56 chambers too by the way.
This sounds to me like a headspace issue. I don't have a go or no-go gauge. I ordered a go gauge a few minutes ago. I do however have another AR. I took my RRA bolt apart and tried it and vice versa. The new bolt works in my RRA, the RRA bolt doesn't work in the new AR. I compared the bolts they appear identical. With no round chambered I can twist either bolt in my RRA chamber. With no round chambered I can just barely get the bolt to twist in the new AR.
Headspace is too tight, right? I mean if it won't close on a .223 it definitely won't on a 5.56.
I'm going to wait til the go gauge comes in and check it before I call the company about another new barrel. Suggestions on other things I can check? Ideas? Fixes?
I would use dummy rounds or factory ammo so that you know the brass is sized correctly.
Would different ammo really matter? I was trying to shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chamber. It's shorter, albeit very minimally. I tried 2 kinds of factory .223. If I could find an ammo that worked I would be stuck using that ammo exclusively. That would make for a worthless rifle IMO.
I would use dummy rounds or factory ammo so that you know the brass is sized correctly.
I used factory ammo.
What type of barrel are you using now? What type of AR do you have? Who makes the BCG?
The barrel is a Roggio Arsenal 5.56 M4 contour.
Bolt is a mil-spec CMT/STAG(immaterial) however my RRA bolt has the same issue.
Are you sure that the barrel was seated all the way into the upper with alignment pin going into the notch?
Yes. the barrel was installed correctly. The headspace has nothing to do with the receiver. It's all about the chamber and barrel extension in conjunction w/ the bolt. The barrel is not on the reciever when headspaced.
Have you tried to chamber a round by pulling back the charging handle and allowing the BCG to fly forward the correct way instead of feeding it forward?
Yes. It will go into battery sometimes in this manner. The action should function correctly without extreme force. As I stated earlier, you can't close it by hand even with the forward assist. Once closed it's incredibly difficult to get it back out of battery. Ejecting a round should be easy to do by hand
Is the gas tube aligned properly?
The carrier doesn't even come into play with the bolt lug/chamber lock-up
Why did you buy a GO gage when the TM uses a Field gage? Did you get a 5.56 gage or a .223 gage? There are differences.
I believe the field guage is a pointless item. It tells you nothing a no-go can't tell you. It also can't act as a go gauge. I got a go gauge because below minimum headpace is the suspected problem.
Try being a little more specific with what components you are using so we don't have to play 20 questions. My guess is that something is seriously out of spec, or assembled improperly.
Brand name is immaterial IMO. Assembly (beyond the barrel) and headspace are unrelated. The barrel is headspaced when the extension is installed.
I'm looking for validation of my suspicions or a secondary possible cause.
PS If I'm out of line, I apologize. This is frustrating...
Brand does mean something because we have seen it all too often that someone has purchased Brand XXX which is known to be inconsistent in their quality control, which means they make or get barrels and barrel extensions that are not within spec.
I used factory ammo. I stated that.
I'm looking for validation of my suspicions or a secondary possible cause, not to be talked to like some kid with his 1st .22 plinker. If you aren't wanting to help constructively, don't reply please.
PS If I'm out of line, I apologize. This is frustrating...
Well you are obviously smarter than I when it comes to the AR platform. :rolleyes: Good luck to you.
I used factory ammo. I stated that.
I'm looking for validation of my suspicions or a secondary possible cause, not to be talked to like some kid with his 1st .22 plinker. If you aren't wanting to help constructively, don't reply please.
PS If I'm out of line, I apologize. This is frustrating...
If HS checks out it might a tight chamber, or a finishing issue with the chamber.
If HS checks out it might a tight chamber, or a finishing issue with the chamber.
I'm betting the headspace is short. I did order a go gauge.
That's a good thought on the chamber though. Hadn't considered the chamber being tight. I'll find some 5.56 and see if it will slide in the chamber on it's own.
What do you mean about the finish? Like too rough or something? I don't know how to check something like that. You'd have to separate the barrel and extension wouldn't you?
I have a gunsmith, but don't know how versed he is with issues like this and I would prefer to save the time and money of taking it to him. He's great with finish work and such, but I feel like with the right tools I'm as capable of handling most issues with my firearms.
Thanks.
Regarding the finishing issue, I'm not sure what you can do other than to take it to a smith. I suspect the remedy is to lightly ream with a finishing reamer. How they diagnose it, by eyeballing or making a chamber cast, I don't know.
Given that you have difficulty though in chambering a round, I'm thinking a chamber that's either too tight or not cut deep enough. In either case, I'd send it back to the mfg/asembler for correction.
Would different ammo really matter? I was trying to shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chamber. It's shorter, albeit very minimally. I tried 2 kinds of factory .223. If I could find an ammo that worked I would be stuck using that ammo exclusively. That would make for a worthless rifle IMO.
The purpose of using different ammo is to eliminate one of possible causes. If it worked with one brand and not another then more then likely you have a bad lot of ammo and not a barrel problem. No it would not mean that you are stuck with one brand of ammo.
When troubleshooting a problem start with the simple solutions first and work from there.
You ask for suggestions and ideas and when people offer them you are totally dismissive and rude. You have already decided what the problem is so why ask for help if you have no intentions of taking it. You may not be a kid with his first .22 but you sure are acting like one.
The purpose of using different ammo is to eliminate one of possible causes. If it worked with one brand and not another then more then likely you have a bad lot of ammo and not a barrel problem. No it would not mean that you are stuck with one brand of ammo.
When troubleshooting a problem start with the simple solutions first and work from there.
You ask for suggestions and ideas and when people offer them you are totally dismissive and rude. You have already decided what the problem is so why ask for help if you have no intentions of taking it. You may not be a kid with his first .22 but you sure are acting like one.
I'm sorry if you think my reply to you was dismissive or rude. It was in no way my intention. Your statement was reasonable given the OP and my question responding was legitimate. Your quoting me from a response that in no way applied to your post. As I replied, I used 2 different brands of factory .223. I find it highly unlikely they were both out of spec so much as to cause the weapon not to function. .223 smaller than 5.56 slightly, it stands to reason that ammo shouldn't be the cause. I made no snide comments toward your post. I simply responded and asked for what purpose. I've seen folks with rifles that only work with certain brands of ammo due to tolerances or what have you. This being a mil-spec 5.56 I don't think that's acceptable for this rifle. I thought that is what you might have been getting at and asked why accordingly. Again, I apologize if it came off short. I really am looking for help, not an argument. Thank you for your input. It applies and is helpful. Between what you have mentioned and jmart's I'm gonna grab a few more different rounds and check the chamber fit sans bolt.
John_Wayne777
11-16-09, 01:27
Dude...he was in no way being condescending to you. He was attempting to illicit from you the information necessary to help resolve the problem. IraqGunz knows the AR platform inside and out...as do lots of other people here. When they ask you questions in response to a request for help, there's a reason for it.
If you want the assistance of our IPs and SMEs here, I strongly suggest you stop taking offense to efforts meant to assist you.
Roggio Arsenal barrel?? Stop right there.
Send your barrel to a professional gunsmith (that can check the chamber) and that the barrel extension was installed correctly. Or just sell the barrel/ask for a refund and buy a QUALITY barrel.
C4
Well you are obviously smarter than I when it comes to the AR platform. :rolleyes: Good luck to you.
Alright, I'm a big boy. I can admit when I'm wrong. Lemme apologize. As I've stated myself on occasion on other forums, connotation is nearly impossible to recognize in text. I jumped the gun assuming you were being smug to the new guy. I'm sorry. I was out of of line. I'm a little frustrated and I guess I took your statements out of context. I edited my post replies to you accordingly.
I do disagree with a couple of your statements, but being we live in the land of the free for at least the near future that's our right ;) I stand by brand insignificance in mil-spec parts and the use of a field gauge over go/no-go gauges, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.
So, if you have any other ideas relative to my problem I will gladly consider them.
Thanks,
Phil
the_fallguy
11-16-09, 21:49
I would guess that you have a tight chamber or possibly a head space issue.
I'm not trying to antagonize you with this post, but parts manufacturers are very relevant when trouble shooting an AR15. How often the barrel manufacturer changes their chamber reamers, how in-spec the reamers are, what kind of QC is used on the barrel extension, etc. are all dependent on the manufacturer, their practices, and even their integrity.
Case in point - I used to have a Del-Ton Inc. barreled upper. A friend's reloads that measured inside SAAMI specs would not seat in that upper part of the time, and when they did I had to mortar the rifle to eject the spent case. I had the same results with two other DTI uppers (and one DPMS). I switched to a BCM upper (based on the recommendations and feedback of this forum's members) and it ran fast strings and double taps with the same ammo lot. The Del-Ton and DPMS uppers all said they were chambered in 5.56 just like the BCM, but obviously they all had tighter chambers than the BCM. Manufacturers matter.
Let me see if I can get back on track. As I am sure that you are aware, parts are not parts. Now that we have some more information I believe the problem is with the Roggio Arsenal barrel assy. More than likely there is something wrong with the chamber dimensions. Now let me clarify why I asked some of the other questions.
I asked about the BCG, because again parts are not parts and there could have been an issue. Part of troubleshooting means that you need to have some quality parts so that you can rule something in or out.
I asked about the barrel being assembled correctly for the simple fact that I have seen botched barrel installations where the barrel assy. (that is the barrel and chamber together) were not seated properly in the upper receiver. That particular person then went on to install everything else yet the barrel would slightly move left and right. So, yes the receiver is important.
I asked about the gas tube because I have seen barrels installed and the gas tube was either bent left or right. This caused the bolt carrier key to hit the gas tube and not close the way it should. This would obviously prohibit you from getting an accurate reading since the bolt carrier group can't lock up properly.
Field gage- It is my understaning and some one please correct me if I am wrong that a Field gage is actually in between a GO and NO GO. But the main importance is that it is actually a true 5.56 gage and not a restamped .223 gage which as far as I know will give a false reading in 5.56 chambers.
I am almost willing to bet that if you were to remove the barrel and install a Daniel Defense, BCM or Colt or even a Noveske barrel that you wouldn't have the problem. Again assembly and components are important. We have seen it time and time again. I have taken a Ned Christiansen 5.56 reamer and run it into brand new Bushmaster and DPMS barrels (so have other members here) and you would be surprised at the amount of metal shavings that come out.
Just in the last few months I have assembled 4 different AR's. One of them was an SBR and the others 16" carbines. I never had any issues with them, but I also do not cut corners and buy anything questionable or unknown. Every single on passed headspace, firing pin protrusion as well as the all important bullets down range test. My point being that 100 people may have Roggio barrels that are great, but 2 guys may have got lemons. Unfortunately we don't hear about it because people seem content to chalk it up to "oh well I guess that's how AR's are". No, it's not and when you have a standard to measure them against it becomes readily apparent.
Disclaimer- I do not own ANY Colt AR's and have never owned a Colt AR and I am not a paid spokesperson for any of the brand names that I have mentioned.
As I replied, I used 2 different brands of factory .223. I find it highly unlikely they were both out of spec so much as to cause the weapon not to function. .223 smaller than 5.56 slightly, it stands to reason that ammo shouldn't be the cause.
Just FYI
.223 cases are NOT slightly smaller than 5.56 cases. External case dimension-wise, .223 and 5.56 are exactly the same. The difference is in the firearm chamber dimension as well as in the specs of the loaded ammo -- 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure.
Blankwaffe
11-17-09, 02:38
This sounds to me like a headspace issue. I don't have a go or no-go gauge. I ordered a go gauge a few minutes ago. I do however have another AR. I took my RRA bolt apart and tried it and vice versa. The new bolt works in my RRA, the RRA bolt doesn't work in the new AR. I compared the bolts they appear identical. With no round chambered I can twist either bolt in my RRA chamber. With no round chambered I can just barely get the bolt to twist in the new AR.
I'd say Grant hit the nail on the head if Im also reading the above information correctly.I'd certainly consider the barrel extension as suspect if the bolt's are difficult or impossible to rotate in the barrel extension on a empty chamber.
Do a search for "endspace" posted by AR15Barrels.He discusses the tolerances of the bolt and barrel extension somewhat in that post with a sketch to eye ball.
Im a knuckle dragger,but it certainly sounds to me like you have a tolerance issue in the barrel extension or how it was installed on the barrel as Grant mentioned..
Let me see if I can get back on track. As I am sure that you are aware, parts are not parts.
Just to clarify what Iraqgunz means. While parts may look mil-spec, most parts are not truly mil-spec. That is why brand is important -- some manufacturers are truly mil-spec (or more likely make mil-spec parts on another line and so know what they are doing), or approach mil-spec very closely with high levels of repeatable Quality and QC, and some just make parts that look mil-spec but which don't follow the TDP in any way shape or form.
If all parts were truly mil-spec, yes, brand would not matter and all parts would be interchangeable. But alas, most parts we get are not truly mil-spec so we care and recommend brands that have high repeatable levels of QC and whose parts are closest to mil-spec, or, if you are lucky truly are mil-spec.
Field gage- It is my understaning and some one please correct me if I am wrong that a Field gage is actually in between a GO and NO GO. But the main importance is that it is actually a true 5.56 gage and not a restamped .223 gage which as far as I know will give a false reading in 5.56 chambers.
I've always understood the field FIELD gage to be outside the NO GO gage. Ie, ignoring the 223/556 chamber differences, the bolt should lock on a GO, but not a NOGO, but if it locks on a NOGO but not a FIELD you would probably be OK for field expedient use with factory spec ammo. They are called FIELD gages because they are used by armorers in the field to check headspace on used weapons when headspace opens up a little. That is how I have understood it.
Now, this link has some explanations from people including someone quoting Brownells... FWIW. Don't know who these people are.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-5724.html
With the differences in 223 and 556 chambers you need to use the appropriate gages for the appropriate chamber type.
Brownells has one listed as 5.56 (.223) and claims it is made to Colts factory max headspace dimensions.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6646/Product/5_56mm___223__HEADSPACE_GAUGE
Brownells lists CLYMER gages and they are different for .223 and what they call 5.56 NATO
I have a set of I think 3 and I have to check whether they are 223 or 556
Chad
I've always understood the field FIELD gage to be outside the NO GO gage. i.e., ignoring the 223/556 chamber differences, the bolt should lock on a GO, but not a NOGO, but if it locks on a NOGO but not a FIELD you would probably be OK for field expedient use with factory spec ammo.
Chad
Correct. This from Forster's website:
Forster offers three lengths of headspace gages per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO and FIELD:
GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gage, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gage is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gage is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace recommended for gunsmiths chambering new firearms. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gage, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gage. The NO-GO gage is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gage, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gages are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.
I tried to find a post by GotM4 from awhile back that listed the dimensions of the various 5.56 and .223 HS dimensions but couldn't. Also, there's nothing in the Tech section I could find.
In addition to the differences in neck/throat/leade dimensions between the two, IIRC the 5.56 NATO has a slight difference in HS dimensions compared to .223, but the differences are very small, on the order of ten thousandths between the two NO GO dimensions. I don't think any differences ever extended into the thousandths. IIRC there was no difference between the GO dimensions.
If the OP doesn't see any abnormal wear on parts, indicating something is binding, then it's probably a chamber issue, but we're all just guessing based on our experiences. These things are best left to a knowledgable smith with the proper tooling to diagnose and correct.
Let me see if I can get back on track. As I am sure that you are aware, parts are not parts. Now that we have some more information I believe the problem is with the Roggio Arsenal barrel assy. More than likely there is something wrong with the chamber dimensions. Now let me clarify why I asked some of the other questions.
That was my suspicion as well. I've heard only good things about their barrels, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus on here
I asked about the BCG, because again parts are not parts and there could have been an issue. Part of troubleshooting means that you need to have some quality parts so that you can rule something in or out.
Agreed. and while I didn't get the top of the line, i bought a decent BCG and that's why I used my RRA bolt I know to be GTG as a reference
I asked about the barrel being assembled correctly for the simple fact that I have seen botched barrel installations where the barrel assy. (that is the barrel and chamber together) were not seated properly in the upper receiver. That particular person then went on to install everything else yet the barrel would slightly move left and right. So, yes the receiver is important.
Yes and no. Once I "decided" it was headspace, I took the barrel back off and stripped the bolt to test the function better. So the receiver really doesn't come into play in this instance, but I see your point.
I asked about the gas tube because I have seen barrels installed and the gas tube was either bent left or right. This caused the bolt carrier key to hit the gas tube and not close the way it should. This would obviously prohibit you from getting an accurate reading since the bolt carrier group can't lock up properly.
Same as above
Field gage- It is my understaning and some one please correct me if I am wrong that a Field gage is actually in between a GO and NO GO. But the main importance is that it is actually a true 5.56 gage and not a restamped .223 gage which as far as I know will give a false reading in 5.56 chambers.
I believe you are correct about the field gauge. It is near the No-Go end of the spectrum. If a chamber closes easily on a field gauge it means you've about shot out your barrel and it needs attention. They are the tool to have on an tested rifle for maintenance. This being an untested rifle with probable low tolerance issues the Go gauge is the way to check because it is the minimum. A field gauge doesn't tell me anything really. I know it's not shot out and if it would function on a field gauge it would function on ammo. If my logic follows? I ordered a 5.56 gauge from Brownells. They have different gauges for .223 and 5.56. I hope they aren't the same. I doubt it really. I know they exist. If it is a .223 however and still doesn't close, I'll definitely know for sure:p
I am almost willing to bet that if you were to remove the barrel and install a Daniel Defense, BCM or Colt or even a Noveske barrel that you wouldn't have the problem. Again assembly and components are important. We have seen it time and time again. I have taken a Ned Christiansen 5.56 reamer and run it into brand new Bushmaster and DPMS barrels (so have other members here) and you would be surprised at the amount of metal shavings that come out.
I have spent some time putting this one together. This is a "bargain build" rifle. I can't see spending $400+ on a barrel when I don't have that in the rest of the gun combined. That doesn't mean it's a piece of crap. Brand snobbery is just that. If it takes me a couple barrels to get a good one, no worries. Roggio does stand behind their product. Lotta the big boys are a pain to deal with. (Also, I grew up between Cherry Point and Bragg and I like to support the local "little guys." That's how the big outfits get started.)
Just in the last few months I have assembled 4 different AR's. One of them was an SBR and the others 16" carbines. I never had any issues with them, but I also do not cut corners and buy anything questionable or unknown. Every single on passed headspace, firing pin protrusion as well as the all important bullets down range test. My point being that 100 people may have Roggio barrels that are great, but 2 guys may have got lemons. Unfortunately we don't hear about it because people seem content to chalk it up to "oh well I guess that's how AR's are". No, it's not and when you have a standard to measure them against it becomes readily apparent.
If I got a lemon, I'll call and they'll fix it. That's looking more and more like the case from my thoughts and others here.
Disclaimer- I do not own ANY Colt AR's and have never owned a Colt AR and I am not a paid spokesperson for any of the brand names that I have mentioned.
Here's what it comes down to, this is a project plinker. I guess that should have been stated earlier. I wanted to build it for peanuts and I did. It's a nice rifle in my opinion(once I get the bugs out) and it'll serve it's purpose. if this was a "my life depends on this gun" situation, I agree there is merit to your statements. I'm not LEO or active duty military, I'm just a contractor who loves firearms. If I needed to use it for "business" everyday, I'd buy the best of the best, spare no expense to have the best tool for the trade. That's how I run my business. It is not however the situation here. If I have to have a 100% dependable rifle I have my RRA. It's tried and true. Honestly, I think this one will be too, when it's finished. It may not last 100k rounds, but it'll do it's job.
Didn't see the last page of posts when I replied. I always understood the field gauge to be in the middle. I guess I need to look into that. I may be wrong on that.
Another statement on brand. I realize, believe me, that some companies have better QC than others (I owned a Taurus pistol once... once...). That said, if you can check things out yourself it's the same material(assuming you buy apples to apples). You get a bad one, you swap it out and get a good one. I'm not going to convince you guys differently I know that. So, I'll let it go. I guess I'm just more frugal than the average member here. I'd love a Noveske Rifle. I'd love to SBR one of mine. I'd also love a new truck, but like a truck, I just can't justify the cost of a high end rifle that does essentially the same thing. That's just me. It's how my dad taught me to look at stuff. If your carbine groups 1/2" @100yds and mine only groups 2". It's just as lethal my friends. I don't know any 1/2" tall men or deer or anything else I'd shoot with an AR... ;)
I am curious about one thing. What is "brand snobberry"? I don't believe in brand snobbery. It's called getting a good product that has a tried and true reputation.
I guess we will just have to disagree since I don't subscribe to the theory that this AR is just for plinking or whatever. In my opinion any "combat" type rifle or weapon that you buy should be first and foremost a reliable weapon capable of inflicting damage when needed.
Punhcing paper, gophers, zombies, etc.... is all an afterthought. Every weapon that I have is considered a SHTF weapon with the exception of my sons Ruger 10/22.
Here's what it comes down to, this is a project plinker. I guess that should have been stated earlier. I wanted to build it for peanuts and I did. It's a nice rifle in my opinion(once I get the bugs out) and it'll serve it's purpose. if this was a "my life depends on this gun" situation, I agree there is merit to your statements. I'm not LEO or active duty military, I'm just a contractor who loves firearms. If I needed to use it for "business" everyday, I'd buy the best of the best, spare no expense to have the best tool for the trade. That's how I run my business. It is not however the situation here. If I have to have a 100% dependable rifle I have my RRA. It's tried and true. Honestly, I think this one will be too, when it's finished. It may not last 100k rounds, but it'll do it's job.
Hatin on 10/22s now, huh? In the Zombie Survival Guide, Max Broks recommends a .22 rifle :p
Anyhow, how did those big names get to be big names? Don't be so quick to count out the little guys. Brand snobbery is the idea that no one but these elite handfull of established companies can make quality equipment. People can believe it if they want, but that doesn't make it true. Was Noveske's 1st barrel a POS? Were Daniel Defense's 1st 500 receivers junk? By your thinking they wouldn't exist because they weren't Colt 30yrs ago. Shouldn't have sold any because they didn't have an established reputation. Nowadays companies like Noveske really don't need my money, Colt sure as hell doesn't. The local guys might, I'll give 'em a shot. Maybe even help them build one of those glorious reputations you boys are so fond of... Maybe not, but who knows... ;)
Don't get me wrong, all the companies listed make great products I hear. I just don't think it should cost me $3000 to own a quality AR. And yes I know that's extreme,but not by much...
Just FYI
.223 cases are NOT slightly smaller than 5.56 cases. External case dimension-wise, .223 and 5.56 are exactly the same. The difference is in the firearm chamber dimension as well as in the specs of the loaded ammo -- 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure.
I was told incorrectly then. I know the chamber is slightly bigger and the cases of the ammo are thicker. I thought they were around .002 longer and the shoulder was slightly different or some such. Good to know. I'm not a reloader. I always use factory ammo. That clears up some confusion though...
Blankwaffe
11-17-09, 21:06
Go gauge= 1.4640"
NO-GO gauge= 1.4670"
USGI FIELD service= 1.4730"-0.0002"
Colt FIELD II= 1.4736"
List of gauge dimensions linky:
http://ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf
Bill Alexander provides some excellent info in this thread on the subject as well:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28296&highlight=Headspace
Blankwaffe
11-17-09, 21:36
I am curious about one thing. What is "brand snobberry"? I don't believe in brand snobbery. It's called getting a good product that has a tried and true reputation.
I guess we will just have to disagree since I don't subscribe to the theory that this AR is just for plinking or whatever. In my opinion any "combat" type rifle or weapon that you buy should be first and foremost a reliable weapon capable of inflicting damage when needed.
Punhcing paper, gophers, zombies, etc.... is all an afterthought. Every weapon that I have is considered a SHTF weapon with the exception of my sons Ruger 10/22.
IG,
That exact way of thinking you have there is the curse I suffer from as well,and is what led to the heated discussion I had with a few fella's,including a LEO armorer,at the range that I talk with you about last week.Arguing the point is,well pointless in my experience.I took your advice and leathered up.
Go gauge= 1.4640"
NO-GO gauge= 1.4670"
USGI FIELD service= 1.4730"-0.0002"
Colt FIELD II= 1.4736"
List of gauge dimensions linky:
http://ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf
Bill Alexander provides some excellent info in this thread on the subject as well:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28296&highlight=Headspace
Thanks for the specifics. I had them backwards. In this case it doesn't change anything, but it's good to know. I'm gonna stop using field gauges and start using no-gos.
. Every weapon that I have is considered a SHTF weapon with the exception of my sons Ruger 10/22.
Unless you have your own arsenal of 22s, I think you mean
"including my son's 10/22"
a 22 is one of the most important SHTF weapons. Not necessarily as a defense weapon, though it is that too, but for other more survival type needs that will arise in certain sorts of SHTF scenarios...
I meant that it wasn't bought for anti-social purposes like the other stuff I have. But, you are correct about it being important.
Unless you have your own arsenal of 22s, I think you mean
"including my son's 10/22"
a 22 is one of the most important SHTF weapons. Not necessarily as a defense weapon, though it is that too, but for other more survival type needs that will arise in certain sorts of SHTF scenarios...
My gut instinct tells me that you were part of the debating team in school. I had one of the first 500 Daniel Defense M4's produced and it was done right-so no it wasn't junk. They also held themselves to a standard and even made an improvement along the way.
Brand snobbery is a cop out for those that refuse to make a good solid weapon. Bushmaster, Oly Arms, DPMS, and others probably all have the capability to do it right everytime, yet they won't. Whether it's to save a few dollars, just catering to a certain part of the market or just outright laziness who knows.
Your Colt comparison is totally in left field. These companies know what it takes to make a good solid, reliable weapon and a handful do it. Pretty simple.
I don't care about reputations per se, what I care about is when someone breaks down my castle door, or if I jump out of a squad car with my weapon that it goes bang when I need it to. I don't understand why this concept if so hard for you to understand.
And unless you have been on a mission to Mars, your 3000.00 price mark is way off base. The BCM 11.5 SBR I built cost me less than 1500.00 (minus the PVS-14, PEQ-2 a few other items. It is solid and will hit what I need to hit. The last carbine I built 2 weeks ago when I was home visiting cost me about 1400.00 and the only discount I received was on the "open box" rail system. It has a Noveske N4 barrel with Switchblock, Vltor stock, LMT lower, LMT BCG, Magpul MBUS's and a Troy rail system. That is along way of from your 3K price and as long as it shoots minute-of-perp then I am happy.
Hatin on 10/22s now, huh? In the Zombie Survival Guide, Max Broks recommends a .22 rifle :p
Anyhow, how did those big names get to be big names? Don't be so quick to count out the little guys. Brand snobbery is the idea that no one but these elite handfull of established companies can make quality equipment. People can believe it if they want, but that doesn't make it true. Was Noveske's 1st barrel a POS? Were Daniel Defense's 1st 500 receivers junk? By your thinking they wouldn't exist because they weren't Colt 30yrs ago. Shouldn't have sold any because they didn't have an established reputation. Nowadays companies like Noveske really don't need my money, Colt sure as hell doesn't. The local guys might, I'll give 'em a shot. Maybe even help them build one of those glorious reputations you boys are so fond of... Maybe not, but who knows... ;)
Don't get me wrong, all the companies listed make great products I hear. I just don't think it should cost me $3000 to own a quality AR. And yes I know that's extreme,but not by much...
Hatin on 10/22s now, huh? In the Zombie Survival Guide, Max Broks recommends a .22 rifle :p
Anyhow, how did those big names get to be big names? Don't be so quick to count out the little guys. Brand snobbery is the idea that no one but these elite handfull of established companies can make quality equipment. People can believe it if they want, but that doesn't make it true. Was Noveske's 1st barrel a POS? Were Daniel Defense's 1st 500 receivers junk? By your thinking they wouldn't exist because they weren't Colt 30yrs ago. Shouldn't have sold any because they didn't have an established reputation. Nowadays companies like Noveske really don't need my money, Colt sure as hell doesn't. The local guys might, I'll give 'em a shot. Maybe even help them build one of those glorious reputations you boys are so fond of... Maybe not, but who knows... ;)
Don't get me wrong, all the companies listed make great products I hear. I just don't think it should cost me $3000 to own a quality AR. And yes I know that's extreme,but not by much...
The difference is that companies like Noveske, Colt, DD did not release any bad products into the market. Lesser quality companies DO release crap into the market (which is why you are here).
I am all for new companies coming into the market and trying to put out a quality product. Just don't be new and suck as you won't get very far.
Colt 6920's run around $1099. DD AR's are around the same price. A Noveske N4 is about $1300. So I have no idea where you got the $3k dollar amount.
C4
Brand snobbery. I have no idea about that. What I do know is that only a handful of companies follow the US GOVT issued TDP. RRA isn't one of them. Does my not liking RRA because they use cheaper parts and don't follow any set standard make me a snob? Could be. In my book it is called common sense.
Most people barely know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out. Having them "check out" a gun that they know next to nothing about, is just about worthless.
If you are buying apples to apples and the one apple follows a standard for quality then you won't need to replace it. If you are trying to say that a RRA barrel is equal to a Colt, BCM, Noveske barrel, then that is NOT an apples to apples comparison (FYI).
It appears that you cannot afford better quality items and don't want to feel bad about that so are trying to "justify" your purchase. We see a lot of that.
I personally understand that not everyone has piles of cash sitting around. So how do you buy quality on a budget? Simple. You buy used. If that does not work for you, you save your money and buy one piece at a time.
C4
Everyone, please throttle back a bit on the whole brand snobbery bullshit.
That means everyone.
Didn't see the last page of posts when I replied. I always understood the field gauge to be in the middle. I guess I need to look into that. I may be wrong on that.
Another statement on brand. I realize, believe me, that some companies have better QC than others (I owned a Taurus pistol once... once...). That said, if you can check things out yourself it's the same material(assuming you buy apples to apples). You get a bad one, you swap it out and get a good one. I'm not going to convince you guys differently I know that. So, I'll let it go. I guess I'm just more frugal than the average member here. I'd love a Noveske Rifle. I'd love to SBR one of mine. I'd also love a new truck, but like a truck, I just can't justify the cost of a high end rifle that does essentially the same thing. That's just me. It's how my dad taught me to look at stuff. If your carbine groups 1/2" @100yds and mine only groups 2". It's just as lethal my friends. I don't know any 1/2" tall men or deer or anything else I'd shoot with an AR... ;)
Brand snobbery. I have no idea about that. What I do know is that only a handful of companies follow the US GOVT issued TDP. RRA isn't one of them. Does my not liking RRA because they use cheaper parts and don't follow any set standard make me a snob? Could be. In my book it is called common sense.
Most people barely know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out. Having them "check out" a gun that they know next to nothing about, is just about worthless.
If you are buying apples to apples and the one apple follows a standard for quality then you won't need to replace it. If you are trying to say that a RRA barrel is equal to a Colt, BCM, Noveske barrel, then that is NOT an apples to apples comparison (FYI).
It appears that you cannot afford better quality items and don't want to feel bad about that so are trying to "justify" your purchase. We see a lot of that.
I personally understand that not everyone has piles of cash sitting around. So how do you buy quality on a budget? Simple. You buy used. If that does not work for you, you save your money and buy one piece at a time.
C4
Blankwaffe
11-18-09, 20:57
Thanks for the specifics. I had them backwards. In this case it doesn't change anything, but it's good to know. I'm gonna stop using field gauges and start using no-gos.
Yeap,your welcome.There's alot of info on this forum list in regards to headspace.
AR15barrels,Bill Alexander,gotm4 and a few others have a good pile of detailed posts on the subject.
As far as the gauges,the only 5.56 headspace gauge I have is the USGI field and its used per the -23.
I'll further add that its my understanding that the GO and NO-GO are primarily only needed when actually manufacturing/reaming or assembling the barrel and barrel extension.From what Ive read if you dont own a reamer then the additional gauges are likely never needed.That said I guess if you had a questionable barrel,such as your situation, it would be wise to check with a GO gauge.
Now,I do have a full set of headspace gauges for .308WIN,7.92x57JS and 7mm Rem.Mag. as I use them in finish reaming and assembly of my bolt guns.Ive set a few K98K Mauser surplus barrels back and reamed to correct headspace,so yes a good set of gauges is handy for actual work on chambers.
I also would not rule out the use of the USGI FIELD and or the Colt FIELD II for use in the AR series as it will allow you to gauge a weapon that may still be in spec after failing a SAAMI NO-GO.For instance I have a well worn Armalite A2(its on its second bolt) that will just barely close on a SAAMI NO-GO,but will not close on the USGI FIELD service.Its my old NM rifle and still drives nails so its certainly serviceable even though the headspace is starting to show excessive tolerance.
I agree,and I don't think the additional gauges are going to help you either.Like I said in a previous post I think Grant touched on the issue in his post, you probably have a tolerance stack in the barrel extension if none of your bolts will rotate into locked position on a empty chamber.At least thats what I understood you to say in your original post.
Personally I'd return the barrel to the manufacturer for inspection,replacement or refund.
Any updates from the TS?
HAs he tried loading the rifle with a live round without the extracor?
Hi all,
First let me say that this forum is incredibly informative, and I truly appreciate learning much from you guys. In fact I credit the collective wisdom with helping me build my 1st (MP15 lower, BCM BFH16mid Bravo upper, BCM M16bolt, H1buffer).
And firing it!:p
To recapture that thrill, I'm in the midst of building the second (carbine length16, RRAupper and lower, RRA LPK) but am running into headspace issues.
I bought a Daniel Defense 16" carbine stripped barrel along with a DD M16 bolt, but my Clymer .223 Go Gauge won't close. Bought from a reputable vendor.
Gas tube appears well aligned, and it will actually chamber a Magpul Snapcap/dummy round, but is very difficult to extract/eject. Haven't had the nerve to attempt chambering a factory round (firing pin protrusion).
I sent the barrel back to the vendor, who returned it stating that it 'headspaced properly' according to them.
Short of sending it to a smith, what other options should I consider?
Thanks
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