View Full Version : CZ & Taurus?
CZ & Taurus, two guns that I never really looked at or considered buying? I have no plans on buying either of these guns. But I see them advertised like crazy so obviously, people buy them.
Do either of these companies make guns that stack up against the M&P or Glock ...first tier guns, in terms of reliability, shooting .....all the features we look for in a combat handgun? Where in the pecking order do they fall?
I have a Taurus PT92 that I do like alot but would never consider it tier one. I'm convinced the only decent handguns Taurus makes are their PT92 and 1911. I have heard great things about CZ and I would look into them if you were interested.
John_Wayne777
11-16-09, 07:54
A Taurus semi-auto is a real crapshoot. Some guys seem to have decent success with them. Others find that they break or they don't run. A good friend of mine has a Taurus PT-92 and his has worked great for him....in the 100 rounds he's put through the pistol since he bought it years ago.
I think his use is typical of what most Taurus owners intend for their weapons.
I would caution anyone against Taurus semi auto's, they really are a huge crap shoot.
CZ's are decent pieces, but I wouldn't choose one over a Glock, M&P, or German SIG. Actually, the ones made back in the good 'ol days of the Cold War tend to be better made, if not as well finished.
CZ's got their reputation back in the late 70's and 80's when you couldn't really get one here in the US without knowing someone and spending a lot of money. Jeff Cooper was exposed to them in his African travells, where they have enjoyed a great reputation and have been especially popular in South Africa and the defunct Rhodesia.
I picked up a CZ-75 back in 1989 from a GI who bought it at a Rod & Gun Club on base in Germany. He maybe paid $300 in Germany, but over here in the US, they were bringing $800 or more in 1980's money. A combination of Jeff Cooper stating it and the Browning Hi Power were the only two 9mm's worth having and the inability to import easily from the communist Czechoslovakia made them extremely expensive.
Anyway......I wouldn't look at the Taurus pieces, they are marketed mainly to gun owners, not shooters. CZ's can be a great pistol, many are used in international IPSC competition and can be found in lots of holsters of military, police, and civillians OCONUS, but they aren't as bomb-proof as a Glock 17 or 19.
Dave Berryhill
11-16-09, 09:53
How many government or police agencies do you know that issue CZs or Taurii?
I personally have heard tons of crap about Taurus, from friends that have had no experience with them but just repeated what they hear or have read. I began to think Taurus is crap simply from hearsay.
Until I went into my local shop to BS with the owner, and saw he had one I had never heard of. It was PT 24/7 OSS 9mm. I asked him what others that have bought it felt about them. He told me most 24/7 had average reviews from customers but the OSS had nothing but great ones. So I held it and fell in love with how she felt. Bought her on impulse and have not looked back since.
I have close to 1000 rounds of WOLF & HSM 9mm through her and have not had one hicup. They have some great features I personally like having, rails, ambi safety, second strike & others.
All in all that specific pistol was money well spent for me. The only gripe I have are the sights but that may be because I am not as used to them as sights on my other pistols. Now, Taurus may still be crap and I lucked out with mine. Or maybe they have gotten their shit together. Cant say for sure.
Dirk Williams
11-16-09, 11:41
Sorry boys but I have to disaree with you on this. I have carried a CZ 75 for extended periods of time, on other duties as assigned. The weapon worked perfect everytime, the rest of the issue was an Ingram MAC 10 and an M-14.
Not my first choice's, but what was in the armory and available for the assignments at the time. I would love to have another CZ 75 for my personal stuff.
I currently do own a Tauras 1911. Having shot it on a regular basis I have not had a fail to fire or any other problem. There are things I don't like about it but from a objective working point of view I have no problems with the quality or craftsmanship.
For someone on a budget and a fan of the 1911 It is a viable candidate. I'm often amused when I see and hear of people paying 1900.00/3500.00 for a 1911 pistol.
My gunsmith powder coated my Tauras as a gift to me a while back." Lower Green" While at a few range sessions I've let several folks shoot the 1911. Everyone of them complamented me on choosing a Kimber for their quality build.
I just smile and say thank you for sharing your expert oppinion.
Dirk
Guns are like anything else, we as humanoids get locked into brand loyalty. Nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is.
I have a Taurus PT92 that I do like alot but would never consider it tier one.
I feel exactly the same way about a CZ 75.
Joe Mamma
In my my view a [individual] pistol goes into tier one when it is tested and proven. The CZ 75 that I curently own is certainly well tested at 60,000+ rounds in the last five years [bought used]. No breakage with the exception of a worn sear and replacement springs. Because of a Angus Hobdell trigger tuning I only use it for competition. I have owned two HK's. One was unreliable [USP .45c], the other [P2000 9mm] was great. My one experience with a Taurus [PT1911] was very positive. A manufacturer's reputation does come into play. I would be more confident that I was getting a quality, reliable pistol with a Glock or HK over a Taurus, but all would need thorough testing before earning my confidence.
When I was younger and just getting started in shooting I was the biggest Glock fan boy in the world. Then one day I spotted this strange czech made pistol called a CZ 75B. I figured what the hell and purchased said pistola on a whim. And the rest as they say was history. I don't even give BLOCKS a second look anymore. In fact I have grown to hate the things. Compared to the CZ, blocks feel like a soulless brick of plastic crap in my hand. I still own one Block, it is a 34 that pretty much lives full time in the glove box of my work truck.
Alpha Sierra
11-18-09, 17:48
How many government or police agencies do you know that issue CZs or Taurii?
Many, if you expand your horizons outside the US.
I don't know if its true or not but as per CZ's web page, CZ claims their pistol is the most widely use by LE in the world.
Product Description
With over 60 years of experience in the design and manufacture of small arms, CZUB is today regarded as one of the small arms leader of the world.
State-of-the-art technology, CNC machining centers and skilled personnel are the guarantees of the highest standards of quality.
The common features for all CZ handguns include hammer forged barrels, tight tolerances and great ergonomics.
CZ 75 B is used by more Govern-ments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world. The CZ 75 is quite possibly the perfect pistol.
All steel construction (except alloy framed compacts)
High capacity double column magazines
Hammer forged barrels
Ergonomic grip and controls
Unparallel accuracy
Slide-in-frame design for better recoil control
3 dot sighting system (Tritium night sights available)
Easy operation of controls
Smooth double action and crisp single action
Extended service life due to advanced design and superior materials
Firing pin block safety
Designed in 1975, the CZ 75 utilizes all the best features from service pistols around the world. An entire family of pistols is available based on the basic CZ 75 design, Compacts, Decockers, Double action only, Single action only, Ambidextrous, alloy frames and even Competition pistols.
I have no experience with Taurus, but I have owned a -75B and P01.
Here's my take on CZ:
They tend to be very accurate in 9mm. They have great ergos, especially the P01 and P06. Build quality is generally good, but fit and finish is not quite as good as SIG/Sauer, Smith etc. I think the -75B is a good bet in that they tend to be pretty reliable, and when they are not, it's often due to (relatively) easily fixed stuff like weak springs etc. The P01 is, I *think* a step up in terms of reliability. I've heard that metallurgy is suspect in some of these guns, but that was not my experience with either gun. I have also heard that mags are an issue with the .40SW guns. I cannot comment on that.
If you want a DA/SA gun, I'd give the P01 a look. The DA trigger is heavy, and mine exhibited some trigger slap. On balance though, I think it compares favorably to a P228.
Bottom line with CZ- be prepared to put in some extra time with it before giving it the green light for carry duty. Also, be prepared to spend a few bucks on new springs and maybe the odd slide stop.
John_Wayne777
11-18-09, 18:32
I don't know if its true or not but as per CZ's web page, CZ claims their pistol is the most widely use by LE in the world.
For a long time CZ has been the low bid pistol, contributing significantly to it's popularity among militaries and police agencies around the world.
crusader377
11-18-09, 18:49
For a long time CZ has been the low bid pistol, contributing significantly to it's popularity among militaries and police agencies around the world.
Isn't Glock also a low bid pistol? One of the main reasons why Glock has been extremely successful is because they introduced the right pistol for LE at an unbeatable price.
CZ may have been a low bid pistol but it is a high quality pistol as well. Truth be known, most successful firearms have been relatively low cost but effective weapons in comparison to their competition at the time.
My first pistol was a CZ75B. I put around 4.5k through it in 7 months when I sold it in favor of my M&P9pro. It was a great pistol for range use and nightstand duty, but holster options were somewhat limited and it was large/heavy for carry. It was a good gun, accurate, good trigger, and the only malfunctions I had were due to weak ammo. They're good guns if you want something different or want a 9mm you can carry cocked and locked, but I'd stop short of recommending them over a glock or M&P.
My first pistol was a CZ75B. I put around 4.5k through it in 7 months when I sold it in favor of my M&P9pro. It was a great pistol for range use and nightstand duty, but holster options were somewhat limited and it was large/heavy for carry. It was a good gun, accurate, good trigger, and the only malfunctions I had were due to weak ammo. They're good guns if you want something different or want a 9mm you can carry cocked and locked, but I'd stop short of recommending them over a glock or M&P.
Well thats exactly it. The big reason the Block has been the overwhelming choice among LEO in the USA is because of it's hammerless 3 internal trigger safety 'safe action' design. The block kinda sorta takes less skill to operate and is thus easier to use. That is to say the glock does take the user a little farther out of the equation.
RAM Engineer
11-18-09, 21:53
Just prior to my local gunshop's "Taurus Days" event, I overheard one of their managers saying to a customer "You should buy a Taurus. You'll get a lifetime warranty!"
He then lowered his voice while talking to the customer and said "...and you'll need it!"
Knowing laughter ensued all around. ;)
I bought a taurus model 44 revolver years ago before I knew any better. After maybe 6-700 rounds the yoke and cylinder loosened up badly and the timing got all screwed up. All that after being talked out of a S&W by the gun shop guy too. Live and learn....
I don't get Taurus - for all the quality issues you have to consider, the savings over a S&W/Ruger revolver or Glock/S&W semi-auto are pretty tiny.
The CZ 75 line is great - a safety-model (vs. decocker) SP-01 or 75B might be the best 9mm for someone new to shooting. Accurate, reliable, great ergonomics, negligible recoil. The downside is lack of aftermarket support - holsters, sights, etc.. I like Heinie-style 2-dot systems, or black rear/tritium front (ala 10-8), and those options are all but nonexistent for CZs (I saw someone who machined a 75b slide for a Novak rear, but when we're getting that complicated I'm out). Even with the crappy stock sights, I was more accurate with my SP-01 than any gun I've owned (traded it to my father).
Combat_Diver
11-19-09, 05:25
I've fired somes friends Taurus, a PT-92 long ago that worked well and recently a 1911 that felt good. No experience on their plyolmer framed guns. On the CZs collected a bunch in the late 80s in Germany (4x50,3x75,1x83 & 1x85) all my guns were built before 89'. They worked great and the several I still have work great, used to shoot ISPC with the 75 & 85. Had the late Bruce Nelson make me a IWB Summer Special to carry them in. Still find a bunch of the CZ 50s and 75s in Iraq and never seen one malfunction there. I carry mine usually cocked and locked (to go along with my M1911 or Coonan). No experience with the newer CZs.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/CZ75_right_side_Bruce_Nelson_rig.jpeg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/CZ75_left_side.jpeg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809cz_s_resized.JPG
Believe Glock and Smith are above the Taurus's but the CZ's have to be weighted in one their individual traits and then its personal preference. (do have a G19 on order and Smith 6904)
CD
That's some good stuff C_D!
My personal experience dealing with many, many CZ's over the past 20 years is that the all steel older 75's and 85's are great guns, with a few tweaks, mainly upgrading springs (especially mag springs on the CZ mfg. mags). Also, the older guns made when it when it was Czechoslovakia (not Czech Republic) and a member of the Warsaw Pact are built better.....just not finished as nicely.
I love my pre-B '75, and had Greg Kramer make me one of his vertical scabbards for it. Ran it in the last AK class that Larry Vickers held.
Back in the day, the CZ's were considered top notch combat pistols. No lesser a personage than Col. Jeff Cooper was a great fan and user of them.
Their newer efforts have not been as well made as the older guns, they exploded on the market in the mid to late 90's and the price point was the main driving factor.
Having said that, I still think they're a viable gun, but just be aware that there is not the support structure in place for them compared to Glocks or M&P's.
I own and shoot my 1986 CZ-75, my father owns an early CZ-75B that I sold him, and one of my uncles owns a CZ-85 that I also sold him.
So, to bring this rambling post to a close......I'm not anti CZ, but I do think that more modern designs like a Glock 17 or 19, S&W M&P, or HK P2000 or P30 are probably better choices for a lot of users.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/CZStuff/CZ-75/P1000183.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/CZStuff/CZ-75/P1000181.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/CZStuff/CZ-75/P1000176.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/CZStuff/Czechmate/P1000184.jpg
Now, as to Taurus. I'm not a door kicker, never have been, my frame of reference is coming from more than 20 years in the retail firearms industry.
The early PT-92's from the late 80's were decent guns, many of the Taurus employees that were assembling them were trained by Beretta technicians when Taurus was manufacturing the M92 for the Brazillian government.
As the 90's progressed, changes were made to the design that took it further away from the original Beretta 92 design. Quality went down. This has only continued at an increased pace.
The newer designs that Taurus have come out with on their own, when looked at through a broad lens, tend to be sub par on a grand scale. I know that many people have bought the newer designs and have been happy with them, but I know that many, many more have had their pistols suffer from reliability issues and parts breakage. Individual experiences (I've had x amount through my PT-908 and it's never jammed) don't out weigh the volume of guns that get sent back to Taurus for customer service every year.
So......for serious use, I'd recommend avoiding Taurus semi auto pistols. Their revolvers haven't been all that great either.
^^^
Templar I understand what you are saying and on the older CZ's I even feel the same way...
I on the other hand feel CZ is a top tier pistol, the spring problem not withstanding.
I have shot Glock's for years and in the year 2007 I put nearly 6k rounds thru both a G17/G19 and as always they ran fine with zero problems.
The thing is I run the CZ better and to this point in '09 I have run only about 4k rounds thru my 75b this year and in a pistol 1 class I recently took the CZ ran with zero ftf's or fte's or jams what ever.
I simply can feel the CZ better...Glocks, especially the G19 are semi uncomfortable to me if they don't have a mag extension for my lil finger and mag release extension so I can get to it better.
That being said I recently bought a G19 just for pistol classes (probably carry also), as most CZ'ers know the CZ has a mag brake and doesn't let mags drop free and I would rather not alter it at the moment.
I will also ...hopefully... be getting a CZ85 and a G17 soon also.:p
Love that Fal btw!
I've shot many of my friends taurus's and haven't really like any of them. The cz felt right from the beggining. Its very accurate and both the 75b's I've shot [including mine] have been butter smooth.
While I might consider a CZ if I was in a part of the world that they were more prevalent than Glocks, currently in CONUS there are far better supported pistol choices available. With superb pistols like the 9 mm Glocks, M&Ps, HK P30 & HK45 available, why would someone even consider a Taurus at this point in time?
Alpha Sierra
11-20-09, 05:49
Not sure how the issue of "support" is of such huge relevance.
Stock up on spares from CZ-USA. Learn how to detail strip your CZ, even if it isn't as easy as a Glock. S&W revolvers are not very intuitive to detail strip but a Kuhnhausen manual and a quiet afternoon fixed that for me. I can do the same with just about any firearm that I can get some documentation for.
Besides, CZs are not unknown in this country and it is not impossible to find gunsmiths nearby that can fix them if they need it.
Support is important, but to hear some here talk about it, it seems like the world would end if you didn't get your pistol fixed overnight. If such is a concern, buy two of them.
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