View Full Version : Looking for a drop in trigger group
Can you recommend one? I have a Colt mt6400c which is more or less the NJ legal ver of the LE6920. I know there are several companies that have these drop in trigger groups or fire control groups. Wilson Combat has one, for example. I think Timney has one too. The reason I want one is because I am mainly a target shooter not a soldier. I know that a lighter trigger can possibly improve group sizes.
My concerns are reliability and cycling problems. I haven't taken a close look at my trigger group and how it actually works. And even if I did, I'm not sure I could figure this out, so here's a question. Does a stock trigger (the hammer to be exact) put up more resistance against the bcg as it moves rearward, than a drop in 4 lb trigger group? Or is the difference in the amount of force required for the trigger to break (4 lbs felt at your finger on a drop in replacement vs 11 lbs, or whatever it is on the stock trigger) not translate into the force that the hammer puts on the bcg as it moves rearward? I think there are 2 springs in the group. Is one for the hammer and one for making the trigger break? I guess I'm worried that if the drop in group puts less force on the bcg does that mean I will need a heavier buffer to prevent the bcg from slaming into the back of the buffer tube or rec ext?
Or am I over thinking this? Does drop in really mean drop in? Should I not worry so much about what I mentioned above?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Captains1911
11-17-09, 09:12
Can you recommend one? I have a Colt mt6400c which is more or less the NJ legal ver of the LE6920. I know there are several companies that have these drop in trigger groups or fire control groups. Wilson Combat has one, for example. I think Timney has one too. The reason I want one is because I am mainly a target shooter not a soldier. I know that a lighter trigger can possibly improve group sizes.
My concerns are reliability and cycling problems. I haven't taken a close look at my trigger group and how it actually works. And even if I did, I'm not sure I could figure this out, so here's a question. Does a stock trigger (the hammer to be exact) put up more resistance against the bcg as it moves rearward, than a drop in 4 lb trigger group? Or is the difference in the amount of force required for the trigger to break (4 lbs felt at your finger on a drop in replacement vs 11 lbs, or whatever it is on the stock trigger) not translate into the force that the hammer puts on the bcg as it moves rearward? I think there are 2 springs in the group. Is one for the hammer and one for making the trigger break? I guess I'm worried that if the drop in group puts less force on the bcg does that mean I will need a heavier buffer to prevent the bcg from slaming into the back of the buffer tube or rec ext?
Or am I over thinking this? Does drop in really mean drop in? Should I not worry so much about what I mentioned above?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Yes, you are over thinking it, the only difference is the force at which the trigger breaks, there is no need to mess with your buffer.
The Timney, and the Wilson I believe, are true drop-in triggers, you simply drop the unit in, insert the hammer and trigger pins, and then tighten 2 set screws against the bottom inside of the lower receiver, binding the unit in place, it is about as simple as it gets. The Timney has a very nice clean break, I use the 4lb one in my precision rifle and love it.
For cheaper, you may also consider a RRA 2-stage trigger, it's not a true drop-in, but still not difficult to install, and has a very nice clean break as well.
Or, send your GI trigger to Bill Springfield, he can make it smoother and lighter if you want.
ETA: I would personally stick to a standard GI trigger for a gun that may be used for self defense, but if it's just for target shooting, you can definitely benefit from a better trigger.
Thanks, I appreciate the reply and ideas.
ETA: I would personally stick to a standard GI trigger for a gun that may be used for self defense, but if it's just for target shooting, you can definitely benefit from a better trigger.
Just curious - why? I purchased both of my ARs for HD, but the vast majority (hopefully all!) of the use they will see is on a range or hunting. The lower the trigger pull weight (within reason of course - these are not 'precision' rifles after all), the less chance I'll pull the gun off target during a shot on game or targets, right? If my assumption is wrong, please tell me why.
Thanks.
I thought about that too when Captains1911 said that. I will let him answer why he said that.
But I thought about it and I suspect it is because the GI trigger is what has been proven to work for decades and has been tested by the armed forces as well as the mfg, etc, etc, etc. So if you need to bet your life on it, the GI trigger is probably what you want. And probably the fact that when you are stressed (like in a home defense scenario), if you forget to keep your finger off the trigger till you're ready to shoot, you are less likely to accidentally fire the gun with an 11 lb trigger than with a 4 lb trigger. That was my thinking on his answer.
BTW, I agree with you about target shooting. The less force you have to exert on the trigger, the less the gun will move once the trigger breaks.
A Geissele DMR if you want an absolutely amazing trigger for precision, feel, and speed...or a Geissele SSA if its gonna see duty/combat.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=112
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=387
Captains1911
11-18-09, 21:56
Just curious - why? I purchased both of my ARs for HD, but the vast majority (hopefully all!) of the use they will see is on a range or hunting. The lower the trigger pull weight (within reason of course - these are not 'precision' rifles after all), the less chance I'll pull the gun off target during a shot on game or targets, right? If my assumption is wrong, please tell me why.
Thanks.
Just as redline said, the GI trigger has been proven the most reliable, and less likely to accidentally fired under stress.
I have heard all good things about the SSA linked above, but have no personal experience with it, but it certainly isn't cheap.
Just as redline said, the GI trigger has been proven the most reliable, and less likely to accidentally fired under stress.
That's what I figured, but thought I'd ask in case there was some other reason I hadn't considered... Thanks.
Or, send your GI trigger to Bill Springfield, he can make it smoother and lighter if you want.
So who is Bill Springfield, what does he charge, and where is he situated? I also noticed some creep in the trigger. Do you know if he can do something with that?
Then I guess I am concerned about putting this thing back in. Taking it out is probably a breeze. I can probably push the pins through and the springs and parts should go flying right?
Now putting it in looks like it will be a pain and might even require some special tools??? I've never done this so let me know if you know what I'm in for. If it's a pain I might just wanna give it to a gunsmith after Bill works on it.
However, if the price of sending it to Bill and having a gunsmith put it back in is more than a drop in, or the RRA 2 stage plus a gunsmith to put it in, I might just want to get the RRA or a drop in.
Let me know what you think, and thanks for your help.
I've been working on my first build. I recently debated triggers, all of the one's that have been mentioned here were on my list. I decided to go with a Bill Springfield trigger. There is a thread on m4c about his work, worth a read. I decided I would just purchased one from him instead of buying one having it sent to me then sending it to him only to have him send it back to me. I figured it would be cheaper in the long run. Anyway, got it a couple days later and installed it myself if you have a drill bit that is similar in size to the trigger pin holes you can install it I'm pretty sure. You can also go to Brownell's and watch their video on installing a trigger, big help. It's pretty easy, just be careful with the hammer being released and hitting the lower it could harm it. The break is surprisingly crisp so be careful.
Even though I have not completed my build yet I'm pretty sure my trigger choice will not be a problem. The big reason I decided on his trigger no extra screws to mess with or have come loose just a trigger. Plus if you purchase one from him you'll have your stock trigger if you'd like to go back to it for any reason.
My last two cents, nice guy to work with.
Hope some of that helped,
Ken
Failure2Stop
11-19-09, 01:49
I would recommend taking the money you will spend on a decent trigger and apply it to your optic fund.
Before worrying about "fixing" the trigger, get as good as you can with the gun first. It is common for users to be able to place 80% of their shots onto a human silhouette at 500 yards with iron sights from the prone position.
In the time that you get good with a decent optic you can save up a few hundred bucks for a trigger if you still think you need it at that point.
Captains1911
11-19-09, 07:36
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36907
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12170
How you press the trigger is more important than how the trigger breaks or resets.
An amazing trigger wont make you an amazing shooter.
Conversely, an amazing shooter will benefit from an amazing trigger.
on this subject, i thinks i maybe able to help.
i've sent two triggers to bill springfield, VERY VERY happy with his work, one is a three pounder, the other is a 4 pounder, they both break like glass, no creep, no overtravel, just wonderfull triggers, and its ony 35 bucks, hurry while they last !! offer ends soon !!:D
just kidding, call bill. he set you up. great guy.
HAD a drop in timney i traded for, im not bashing timney, but it was horrible, creepy, and mushy. yucko. threw it in the pond.
no wonder the guy traded it off...grrrr.:mad:
also have a rock river two stage, just absolutly love it, its wonderfull.
if ''I'' can install a AR trigger, ANYONE can... trust me, just study it, its really easy/.
but IMHO , bill springfield is the way to go... best thirty five bucks i ever spent,
I've been working on my first build. I recently debated triggers, all of the one's that have been mentioned here were on my list. I decided to go with a Bill Springfield trigger. There is a thread on m4c about his work, worth a read. I decided I would just purchased one from him instead of buying one having it sent to me then sending it to him only to have him send it back to me. I figured it would be cheaper in the long run. Anyway, got it a couple days later and installed it myself if you have a drill bit that is similar in size to the trigger pin holes you can install it I'm pretty sure. You can also go to Brownell's and watch their video on installing a trigger, big help. It's pretty easy, just be careful with the hammer being released and hitting the lower it could harm it. The break is surprisingly crisp so be careful.
Even though I have not completed my build yet I'm pretty sure my trigger choice will not be a problem. The big reason I decided on his trigger no extra screws to mess with or have come loose just a trigger. Plus if you purchase one from him you'll have your stock trigger if you'd like to go back to it for any reason.
My last two cents, nice guy to work with.
Hope some of that helped,
Ken
ken...your right, bill does very good work, love my triggers.
i sent both of mine in, but i do have another ''stock'' trigger also.
my groups srank by half, with bill's triggers.
im a pretty happy camper, :D
peabody
So who is Bill Springfield, what does he charge, and where is he situated? I also noticed some creep in the trigger. Do you know if he can do something with that?
Then I guess I am concerned about putting this thing back in. Taking it out is probably a breeze. I can probably push the pins through and the springs and parts should go flying right?
Now putting it in looks like it will be a pain and might even require some special tools??? I've never done this so let me know if you know what I'm in for. If it's a pain I might just wanna give it to a gunsmith after Bill works on it.
However, if the price of sending it to Bill and having a gunsmith put it back in is more than a drop in, or the RRA 2 stage plus a gunsmith to put it in, I might just want to get the RRA or a drop in.
Let me know what you think, and thanks for your help.
nothing will go ''flying'' , just be carefull. take grip off, and pull out the safety lever, remove front pin, hammer will come out, and the hammer spring stays with it.
then take out second pin. the rest just falls out, no biggy.
you'll see how it all fits together, no kidding, im NOT a AR expert by ANY means,
its THAT eazy. im really not joking, if ''I'' can do it...you can too.
go for it, you'll be glad you did.
peabody
Thanks for all your feedback Peabody and everyone else.
So who is Bill Springfield, what does he charge, and where is he situated? I also noticed some creep in the trigger. Do you know if he can do something with that?
Then I guess I am concerned about putting this thing back in. Taking it out is probably a breeze. I can probably push the pins through and the springs and parts should go flying right?
Now putting it in looks like it will be a pain and might even require some special tools??? I've never done this so let me know if you know what I'm in for. If it's a pain I might just wanna give it to a gunsmith after Bill works on it.
Let me know what you think, and thanks for your help.
Search this forum regarding Springfield, or go to his website (google "bill springfield trigger work"). Cost is $35-$50, and turn around is typically a week.
My trigger came back perfect. No creep, light and crisp, like the second stage of my M14's national match trigger.
It's easy to take it out and put it back in. I'm not very handy, I'm new to the AR, and it took me abut 5 minutes. Nothing goes flying. No special tools are required.
I was in the same position as you. My stock trigger was awful, and I had to do something. I figured I'd might as well risk $40 on having Springfield work on my trigger (as a stopgap measure, if nothing else), rather than going straight to spending $150-$200 on a new trigger.
I'm happy enough with Springfield's work that now I have absolutely no desire to buy a new trigger...
Bimmer
I have an old ar15 a2 sporter 2 from the mid 80s. I had a Milazo (or Milazzo) dcm legal trigger put in there in the mid 90s. Not sure what diameter the FCG pins are on the old AR but they are .169 on my new m4. *IF* the pins are the same size on both guns, do you think I can simply swap the triggers on both? Or is there some manual adjustment required with a Milazo trigger once it gets swapped into another rifle? I have probably almost 1000 rds through the old AR with the Milazo trigger with zero trigger problems. I figure it's proven reliable enough in case I do need it for home defense.
I also have all the parts from the original trigger group from the old AR. If I sent my m4 trigger to Bill Springfiled and by some small chance it comes back not working right, will the old AR trigger work in the m4? Again assuming the fcg pins are the same diameter.
Or how about this? If they are the same I guess I can just send the old AR trigger to Mr Springfield and put that into the m4 and have the original m4 trigger as a backup in case the reworked trigger shits the bed.
Your thoughts please, and as always thanks for your time and help.
I have a Timney 4lb trigger in my duty rifle and its great. It was super easy to install, the timney trigger is very crisp, and smooth. If your using it for duty then I wouldn't go with anything less than 4lbs.
*IF* the pins are the same size on both guns, do you think I can simply swap the triggers on both?
I also have all the parts from the original trigger group from the old AR. If I sent my m4 trigger to Bill Springfiled and by some small chance it comes back not working right, will the old AR trigger work in the m4? Again assuming the fcg pins are the same diameter.
Or how about this? If they are the same I guess I can just send the old AR trigger to Mr Springfield and put that into the m4 and have the original m4 trigger as a backup in case the reworked trigger shits the bed.
This makes sense to me, assuming that the pins are the same size. They're interchangeable parts, after all.
FWIW, I've only heard of one guy ever having a trigger which Springfield breathed on "shit the bed," and that one seemed to be in connection with an oddball lower.
Bimmer
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