View Full Version : Remington 700 build, what do you think?
Here’s what my build will entail.
- Remington 700 SPS 20” Barrel. Cut to 18.5” and threaded to fit
Surefire CA762SSAL/RE adapter for Surefire FA762SS suppressor.
- McMillan A1-3 (FDE) stock
- PRI 7' Full 1913 Railed Base for Remington 700 SA
- PRI 30mm Standard Rings
- Trijicon AccuPoint TR23-2 Mil-Dot w/Amber dot 30mm Tube 5-20x 50mm
I’m somewhat new to precision shooting, more of an AR junkie. I’d Love some input.
Ok here are my thoughts.
I think the Remington will work out great for you especially cut and fitted with the SF. Should do anything you want to 800 yards. You’re good with the McMillian as well. Don’t rule out Manners. I would go with the A3 over the A2 as I like the fact that it’s a little thinner or shallower at the front. Obviously you will want to get it bedded for you action. If it were I would run Badger Detachable Bottom Metal and AI mags as well. No it’s not necessary but either is the SF can and break. The mag system is very fast and convenient especially if you think you will ever shoot any sniper matches.
The PRI stuff is good I just prefer the Badgers as they are time tested and the standard.
The question I do have is why the Trijicon? What do you think they bring to the party? I would run a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 on the rig you’re describing with either the NP-R2 reticle or better yet the NP-R1 which I like more as it allows me to call my shots and correct a little more accurate. The Trijicon scope line is rather new and for that money you could buy a used Nightforce.
Now for the million dollar question. Why MILS? My assumption is as a shooter your whole scope and red dot life has been in MOA not MILS. Why learn another somewhat confusing system? The MIL guys are going to argue but they know and really understand it. 1MOA is about, 1"@100 and 10" @1000. Even 5" @500.
1 MIL is 3.6"@100 and 36" @ 1000. Its 7.2"@200. See where I am going with this? Most scopes will be 1/4" clicks at 100 in MOA and 0.36" @ 100 in MILS. I think that most of us are more inclined to the math of MOA and have more experience with it. That’s not to say MILS are bad but you really need to understand it. No matter what you do make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that the adjustments match the reticle spacing. In other words go MOA with MOA adjustments or MILS/MILS.
You’re heading in the right direction. Good action, good stock with bedding job and even better glass will allow you to do just about whatever you want.
You may want to define the role of this rifle a little more so that you can make some more long term determinations. What will you really use it for?
Thanks for all the input I do appreciate it. It's always nice to get feedback from someone who knows what their talking about and doesn’t mind helping someone out. Here's my updated list
- Remington 700 SPS 20” Barrel. Threaded to fit
Surefire MB762SSAL/RE adapter.(keeping the barrel to 20 inches after
talking to my gunsmith)
- McMillan A3 (FDE) stock w/ saddle type cheek piece
- PRI 7' Full 1913 Railed Base for Remington 700 SA (20moa cant)
- PRI 30mm Standard Rings
- Leopold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T M3
(I have pervious experience and knowledge of the MIL-dot system so I'm sticking with. But I originally wanted to get the accupoint because I had an employee discount through trijicon but today had an employee discount faxed to me by Leopold so I’m going with the mark 4 LR/T m3 in Mil-Dot.)
As for the question to how I’m going to deploy my rifle. I’m planning on attending some precision shooting courses and just generally get involved in long range shooting. Once again thanks for the help.
Ok here are my thoughts.
Now for the million dollar question. Why MILS? My assumption is as a shooter your whole scope and red dot life has been in MOA not MILS. Why learn another somewhat confusing system? The MIL guys are going to argue but they know and really understand it. 1MOA is about, 1"@100 and 10" @1000. Even 5" @500.
1 MIL is 3.6"@100 and 36" @ 1000. Its 7.2"@200. See where I am going with this? Most scopes will be 1/4" clicks at 100 in MOA and 0.36" @ 100 in MILS. I think that most of us are more inclined to the math of MOA and have more experience with it. That’s not to say MILS are bad but you really need to understand it. No matter what you do make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that the adjustments match the reticle spacing. In other words go MOA with MOA adjustments or MILS/MILS.
This is interesting to me too, since I am sloooowly making the leap into PR shooting. I am into the mental math of the MOA, too. I am looking at MIL scopes b/c I ASSume that is what my future training will be based upon, but who knows?
Do you suggest a particular scope set up for MOA/MOA?
I am working on something like this, too.
If you don't have a detachable mag, wouldn't a 2-piece base be easier for loading?
Your build list looks good but why cut the barrel down so short? What's the max distance you plan on shooting? That scope might be overkill due to the fact that the shorter barrel will limit you to ~800yds or less.
I have a SPS Tactical in .308. It's outfitted with a HSP police stock, Jewell trigger, Warne 20moa base, Warne rings, HSP DBM conversion & a Falcon Menace 4-14x44 FFP scope. Shooting 175 grn FGMM, it takes over 43 moa of adjustment to hit paper @ 1k. The bullet runs out of steam just after 900yds & goes subsonic. I'm going to load some 155 grn bullets soon to see if I can get to 1k with them. If not, I'm gonna have to upgrade to a longer barrel to reach my goal of 1k shooting. Just something to think about with your short barrel if you plan on shooting past 800 yds like previously mentioned.
There are many articles that show that most commercial 308 hits full velocity from a 20" barrel. You can go to Tac-ops web page and read up. If you hand load with slower powders thats not true either, but Fed GMM does get full speed out of 20". Also when you add a supressor onto a 18" barrel you still end up with like 24" of length to drag around and swing into postion and wrestle with. Shorter barrels also tend to have less deflection or droop with the same number of rounds as a same profile but longer barrel.
Looks good so far except one thing. Go Nightforce for optics. I hear Leupy's been having QC problems as of late. Check out Sniper Hide and Snipers Central to read up on it and to also answer any PR questions you may have.
There are many articles that show that most commercial 308 hits full velocity from a 20" barrel. You can go to Tac-ops web page and read up. If you hand load with slower powders thats not true either, but Fed GMM does get full speed out of 20". Also when you add a supressor onto a 18" barrel you still end up with like 24" of length to drag around and swing into postion and wrestle with. Shorter barrels also tend to have less deflection or droop with the same number of rounds as a same profile but longer barrel.
Funny thing is, the article from Swat Magazine/Tac-Ops is what I used to determine the barrel length I went with on this rifle. It says for the most part that from 20-26", there is no velocity loss if I remember correctly. Only from 20"-18" it drops slightly. I cheated & used my buddies dope from his 26" Rem 700 to get close with my combo all the way from 200-1000 yards. At 1k, his sheet was @ 39 MOA & I was low @ 43 MOA. Same base, similar scope specs. So my first hand experience is that a 20" barrel does lack in velocity as compared to a 26".
Ok here are my thoughts.
Now for the million dollar question. Why MILS? My assumption is as a shooter your whole scope and red dot life has been in MOA not MILS. Why learn another somewhat confusing system?
I dont agree with this statement. I also don't get what's there to learn really unless your memorizin the breakdown. If your reticle is in Mils why use MOA adjustments. With Mils/ Mils glass there's no math to convert. What you see in your scope is what you dial in, period. With Mils/MOA you have to multiply by 3.43 to get mils and be able to hold that with your scope. You're adding a whole math step for no reason.
Also with a RDS you're not making constant adjustment so whether MOA or mils its a moot point.
Believe me if you can get Mils/Mils do it. It will pay off in the future.
R.
Funny thing is, the article from Swat Magazine/Tac-Ops is what I used to determine the barrel length I went with on this rifle. It says for the most part that from 20-26", there is no velocity loss if I remember correctly. Only from 20"-18" it drops slightly. I cheated & used my buddies dope from his 26" Rem 700 to get close with my combo all the way from 200-1000 yards. At 1k, his sheet was @ 39 MOA & I was low @ 43 MOA. Same base, similar scope specs. So my first hand experience is that a 20" barrel does lack in velocity as compared to a 26".
The problem with such tight tolerances to maintain the same velocity with a 20" as pne can get with a 26" barrel is reliability. You start to introduce enviromental factors like dirt or dust and I would be very surprised if you don't run into problems. There's a difference between range guns and operational guns.
I'm not saying this is the case by any means, but it's a well know fact that real tight custom guns can be a PITA sometimes.
R.
a1fabweld- What load were you shooting? Every barrel is also differnt to some degree. I beleive in that mag they used the same barrel just kept cutting it back. Im not saying you wont loose any velocity, just the trade off might be worth it. And in my mind a long range rifle with a barrel shorter than 20" is kinda silly unless you are packing it around in the bush for days on end as a second gun. I like a 22" barrel for 308 as it seems to balance best for me, and they is little chance of loosin more than a few FPS.
rick p- what tolerances have to be tighter to keep velocity up that affect reliability? I know you will more likely have a complete burn in a barrel of 22" that a 18", but if your load is right it should be consistent because that is key in anything past 500 yards. you want low SD ans ES in velocity any way you look at it. If you were just commenting that very tight spec rifles are more finiky in the field then thats right. You need a balance of accuracy and reliability for a field gun.
rick p- what tolerances have to be tighter to keep velocity up that affect reliability? I know you will more likely have a complete burn in a barrel of 22" that a 18", but if your load is right it should be consistent because that is key in anything past 500 yards. you want low SD ans ES in velocity any way you look at it. If you were just commenting that very tight spec rifles are more finiky in the field then thats right. You need a balance of accuracy and reliability for a field gun.
Hey MOA,
Chamber, throat, headspace, anything that keeps pressure up. That's what keeps velocity up I'm not a gunsmith by any means but like I said really tight custom guns can be an issue. I've seen it so many times, guys spend thousand of dollars for custom guns that have nothing but problems, and you're absolutely right, a field gun needs to be a balance between accuracy and reliability.
And again I'm not saying any specific vendors fall under this. Just something I've witnessed as a general rule.
I just don't get why one would go down that road and trade reliability for just a few inches of barrel. I get the whole barrel harmonics thing and can see that accuracy can be improved with shorter barrels up to distances of 300y or so, but if tagging targets past 600/700y or even 1000y, then why??
People will say well it's a mobility issue, really?? How many guys are going to hump through the jungle with it. As for LE goes, how far does a sniper really have to hump it from trunk to FFP? I would say not far. So then the question is, do you really need to possibly sacrifice reliability that much?
R
I didn't see the OP saying anything about having it re-chambered when he has the barrel shortened. However if so, this sounds like a reliable solution:
"I recommend the 308 Tactical Match Finish reamer with a .343 neck and .098 freebore (1˚-30).
Regards,
Dave
Pacific Tool & Gauge"
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1235779
Here's another thing I'm considering doing: http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/a/remington-700-bolt-lug-lapping_post197.html
ETA: And bedding the PRI base: https://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11315&sid=4e651f843565dcfcd31b663d6546f6fb
a1fabweld- What load were you shooting? Every barrel is also differnt to some degree. I beleive in that mag they used the same barrel just kept cutting it back. Im not saying you wont loose any velocity, just the trade off might be worth it. And in my mind a long range rifle with a barrel shorter than 20" is kinda silly unless you are packing it around in the bush for days on end as a second gun. I like a 22" barrel for 308 as it seems to balance best for me, and they is little chance of loosin more than a few FPS.
rick p- what tolerances have to be tighter to keep velocity up that affect reliability? I know you will more likely have a complete burn in a barrel of 22" that a 18", but if your load is right it should be consistent because that is key in anything past 500 yards. you want low SD ans ES in velocity any way you look at it. If you were just commenting that very tight spec rifles are more finiky in the field then thats right. You need a balance of accuracy and reliability for a field gun.
Both rifles were very close in specs & used factory Rem actions & barrels. Both 20 moa bases. Similar optics. Ammo used was FGMM 175grn.
whatever you do, get a scope with matching ret. and adj. MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. it is STUPID easy once you do that. If you have a scope with a mil ret. and moa adjustments you will be doing math instead of shooting. Look at the new vortex lineup they are a mil/mil scope for $850. They are also FFP which means that the reticle changes at different magnification. This is important because your come ups are the same no matter what power setting you are at. USOptics are very good and I run a couple of those. They are solid and dependable, I have one on a 300wm that puts me on target all the way out to 1 mile. They are not cheap, but they are good. I suggest the forums over at snipershide for all you precision rifle questions.
They are also FFP which means that the reticle changes at different magnification. This is important because your come ups are the same no matter what power setting you are at.
I dont get what you're saying here. Your come ups never change regardless of the glass being FFP or not. What changes is the the field of view and retical size . What it does make a difference with is ranging if using mildot. With a FFP scope you can range at any magnification as opposed to a non FFP scope where you can range at only one specific magnification. Nothing to do with come ups.
R.
I dont get what you're saying here. Your come ups never change regardless of the glass being FFP or not. What changes is the the field of view and retical size . What it does make a difference with is ranging if using mildot. With a FFP scope you can range at any magnification as opposed to a non FFP scope where you can range at only one specific magnification. Nothing to do with come ups.
R.
As if not more important than ranging, it allows you to use the reticle for hold-offs at any magnification level (as long as you aren't out so far you can't make out the reticle marks). This is hugely valuable for rapidly transitioning between targets at different ranges and such.
Thought I'd add that this rifle config is very much along the same lines of Lowlight's 'Gladius' rifle over at SH. These short barreled rigs can shoot, and by no means are they limited to 600-800 yards:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1313035#Post1313035
(granted, he uses a tight-bored barrel for some extra pep with factory loads, but same can be accomplished with handloading).
Regarding scopes it is always best to have the reticle and the knobs speak the same language. I prefer mil/mil if possible because this is the most common in the tactical world and it is based on 10 which makes math easy. Problem with moa/moa is there are not many companies that offer this other than Nightforce that I know of.
Regarding FFP, most scopes that are 2ndFP can only be used for accurate mil scale on the highest power, this becomes a problem not only when trying to range at differrent powers but also when trying to shoot movers with leads or multiple targets when the highest power does not offer you the ideal field of view. so if you have to crank it down to a lower power for field of view, a 1 mil lead for a 4mph mover at say 300yrds is no longer actually 1 mil in your reticle, what is it??? too much math for me...gives me a headache just thinking about it...bummer when that happens.
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