Shooting with both eyes open [Archive]

jeremy45

11-19-09, 22:51

I'd say you are better off learning to do it the right way in the first place, instead of having to change later.

Someone else can give you more specifics but one of the big reasons to shoot with both eyes open is it keeps all your peripheral vision intact. If you close one eye you block off an entire side of your vision and possibly another threat. It's also quicker, and you don't have to think about closing one eye when you have more important things to concentrate on.

Jeremy45

M4Fundi

11-19-09, 23:06

1. Why would you reduce 50% of your vision and thus 50% of the info in front of you
2. Keeps your depth perception (one eye you have almost none)
3. Keeps your ability to balance as you move
4. If you close one eye for a long period of time which the muscles were not designed for they get fatigued quickly and start to twitch. You do this for too long the twitch will switch to BOTH eyes.
5. Reduces speed of target acquisition
6. The closed eye will blur out and when you open it and need it it will not focus
7. Allows your brain to see and interpret both your sight and your target better simultaneously
8. I'm sure there are more

Shadow1198

11-19-09, 23:10

Both eyes open gives you a wider field of view so you're more aware of your surroundings. Not to mention the fact that, if you come under fire your eyes will probably bug out of your head and you may not think to close one of them to make a shot.

Mate

11-19-09, 23:20

Curious as well, as I've heard from a couple of top instructors that if you want to keep one eye closed, then go for it.

I started out with one eye closed, and now I've moved onto the both eyes open. It took me awhile to switch, but after I did, one eye closed feels weird.

I still close one eye for the longer range shots e.g. 100-200 yards though.

Failure2Stop

11-20-09, 08:14

There are times to train one eye open and times to train both eyes open, just as there are times that you will need to shoot with both eyes open and times to shoot with one eye closed.

First lets cover some fallacies about the subject-
-Closing the non-aiming eye does not reduce 50% of your peripheral vision. The field of vison by the eyes is overlapping. Closing one eye reduces peripheral vision by about 20 to 30 degrees depending on how good your peripheral vision is in the first place.

-Shooting with both eyes open will not make you less accurate or precise. It does, however take a lot of practice to be able to keep your eye focused on a front sight (if using irons) if both eyes are open. It will not make much difference with a 1X optic as long as the shooter is accustomed to it. Shooting a magnified optic with both eyes open will make no difference.

-Closing one eye will not hurt precision unless you are scrunching your face up to keep the eye closed. It is easier for an extended period of shooting to keep both eyes open or the non aiming eye lightly shut.

Many people prefer to close one eye when shooting for precision because it reduces extraneous input, allowing them to focus solely on the sights.

Shooting with two eyes open in a close range environment is preferable to trying to shut one eye as it is part of the body alarm reaction to open both eyes wide to gain information about the threat or your path away from that threat. Since we are highly likely to have both eyes open when we have the highest need to employ lethal force it only makes sense to do it during practice and training. If the first time you shoot with both eyes open is when some stranger is coming down your hallway with a knife, do you think that you will hit as well as you do on the range?

The more you work on shooting with both eyes open, the better you will get at it.
If you have an RDS, you should be shooting both eyes open already. I never close an eye if equipped with such an optic.
The only time I close an eye is for a high precision shot with irons or a magnified optic. I don't really think about it, but I have been doing it for a while.
Proficiency and comfort come through practice and familiarity.

RogerinTPA

11-20-09, 10:19

Completely agree with F2S.

Just to add, IF you are a new shooter, and don't know which eye is dominant, shooting with both eyes open could present a degree of frustration with accuracy. There are quite a few folks that are right hand dominate, but left eye dominate, and visa versa. Some prefer to shoot with their support side to match the dominate eye and are damn good at it (LAV). I know a few folks who've been shooting for years, who never knew they were cross dominate and wonder why they don't shoot very well. A simple test would be to extend your arm and hold up a finger. Close and open, one eye at a time. If the finger doesn't move, that's the dominate eye.

ToddG

11-20-09, 11:54

re: handguns only

Some of the best shooters I know close one eye. While there are some theoretical downsides to doing so, and while I personally shoot & advocate keeping both eyes open, the reality is that it's not likely to make any difference in 99% of what you'll do behind a gun. Shooting with both eyes open is better, but it's not critical. At least in my experience, it's so low on the list of priorities that I've never met anyone who needed to work on that instead of, say, improving trigger manipulation, recoil management, etc.

The ease with which people can shoot with both eyes open also has a lot to do with one's vision and eye dominance. If your dominant eye has substantially poorer vision than your non-dom eye, for example, it may be worth trying to shoot with the dom eye closed. The problem there is that under "close range stress" you're likely to have both eyes open whether you want to or not.

Gombey

11-20-09, 23:00

Thanks guys, I tired to get a sight picture with both eyes and it was.....a new experience LOL!!!! I will try this the next time I hit the range. Once again, I am greatful for the advice and level of expertise I get here. There are still many questions I have :)

Oh and I am using a pistol, I have not purchased a carbine yet.

Lincoln7

11-20-09, 23:10

I learned one eye closed first on handguns and with time I started using both eyes open since I had all the basics down and it came pretty naturally. When practicing drawing and firing I find that I always keep both eyes open (self defense/heightened alertness mode, I presume)

mercop

11-23-09, 08:48

I have always just found it easier to shoot the pistol, rife, sub gun, and even rifle out to (100) yards or so with both eyes open, since I do everything else with both eyes open.- George

BLACK LION

11-25-09, 15:50

I have always just found it easier to shoot the pistol, rife, sub gun, and even rifle out to (100) yards or so with both eyes open, since I do everything else with both eyes open.- George

I am in the same boat. I first learned to shoot by squinting or closing one eye.
Then I unlearned it. Now I only squint or close one eye for a precision shot at distance. I am trying to gain "dominance" in both eyes as well as both hands so I have been training in "ambidextrious" mode as much as possible.
I guess my goal would be "neutrality" and knowing no bias or weakness on either side.

Thank the Lord I have good clear eyesight in both eyes and left handed daughter and brothers for inspiration. I have even started writing and drawing left handed... not to mention things like brushing the teeth and other things reserved for our "dominant" hand...
It feels strange reconstructing the opposite side to be a "dominant default" since it was used more for gross motor functions like holding the plate while the dominant hand washed etc etc...You get the idea. I realized its not just something to work at when I pick up a firearm but in everything I do...even things as simple as writing my ABCs or dialing on the phone.
One thing is sure it decreases the threat Alzheimers a great deal;)

joshua79109

11-25-09, 18:34

I first learned with one eye closed, but if I could do it over I'd start my learning with both eves open.

I started using red dot scopes and it was very easy for me to go with both eyes open. Then I went to both eyes open on irons and it wasn't a tough transition. I still shoot long distance with one eye closed.

Good luck

K.L. Davis

11-25-09, 22:10

First lets cover some fallacies about the subject-
-Closing the non-aiming eye does not reduce 50% of your peripheral vision. The field of vison by the eyes is overlapping. Closing one eye reduces peripheral vision by about 20 to 30 degrees depending on how good your peripheral vision is in the first place.

-Shooting with both eyes open will not make you less accurate or precise. It does, however take a lot of practice to be able to keep your eye focused on a front sight (if using irons) if both eyes are open. It will not make much difference with a 1X optic as long as the shooter is accustomed to it. Shooting a magnified optic with both eyes open will make no difference.

-Closing one eye will not hurt precision unless you are scrunching your face up to keep the eye closed. It is easier for an extended period of shooting to keep both eyes open or the non aiming eye lightly shut.

Good stuff... also, stereopsis does not play as big a part in depth perception as a lot of folks like to make out; out beyond arm's reach, we humans use many other cues to determine depth and distance, even with one eye closed.

milosz

11-26-09, 01:11

M4Fundi

11-26-09, 02:13

Anyone dealt with shooting when your eyes don't work in concert? I was born with a lazy eye - currently vision is 20/20 in both, thanks to Lasik, and I can freely switch between them.

I'm right-handed, but left-eye dominant, generally try to shoot right-eyed - but sometimes I feel like I switch eyes momentarily during recoil or that I'm angling my gun to the left.

Trying to decide if I should concentrate on getting comfortable shooting left-eyed or if I should continue to shoot right-eyed and patch the left while I'm practicing. (Probably wouldn't hurt to build up the muscle behind my right eye anyway...)

I am Curse-Eyed Dominant as well, right hand/left eye...I would do anything if I had just learned to shoot Lefty from the get go. If I'm not mistaken so is LAV & he learned to shoot Lefty as his dominant b/c of this and then you have some one like Brian Enos who shoots with scotch tape on his left lens to force right eye dominance for competition. I made my living with a rifle for many years shooting right and closing or squinting & eye and wish I had someone to convince me to switch to Lefty. The good news for you is that IMHO an Aimpoint works even batter for us Curse-Eyed Dominant shooters. As it allows both eyes open and the optic blurs out more easily for us while giving us a great Red Dot Picture. If you have the discipline learn to shoot as primary from the dominant eye side or squint with irons and get an Aimpoint;) There are some REAL experts on this forum, but I have spent more time working with this problem than the average rabbit and love my Aimpoint!

mercop

11-26-09, 12:57

Anyone dealt with shooting when your eyes don't work in concert? I was born with a lazy eye - currently vision is 20/20 in both, thanks to Lasik, and I can freely switch between them.

I'm right-handed, but left-eye dominant, generally try to shoot right-eyed - but sometimes I feel like I switch eyes momentarily during recoil or that I'm angling my gun to the left.

Trying to decide if I should concentrate on getting comfortable shooting left-eyed or if I should continue to shoot right-eyed and patch the left while I'm practicing. (Probably wouldn't hurt to build up the muscle behind my right eye anyway...)

I cheated to pass the eye exam to get in the PD and cannot get a drivers license without a note from my doctor:) My left eye is horrible. Not of this has ever effected me in the army or the PD and several firearms instructors schools from pistol to sub-gun.

IMHO closing one eye to do anything is unnatural, binocular vision is best for social encounters of all types.

I had to laugh when attending NRA instructors school, for pistol and rifle they teach you to close one eye, then during shotgun they say to use both eyes track the targets because of movement. I guess the pistol and rifle targets will just stand still:) Tracking movement requires both eyes. Next time a rabbit runs across the road in front of you try closing one eye as you watch it cross...good luck.

If you are worried about closing one eye to shoot bullseye you should also be using a pistol suited for bullseye. - George

ToddG

11-27-09, 08:54

I cheated to pass the eye exam to get in the PD and cannot get a drivers license without a note from my doctor:) My left eye is horrible. Not of this has ever effected me in the army or the PD and several firearms instructors schools from pistol to sub-gun.

IMHO closing one eye to do anything is unnatural, binocular vision is best for social encounters of all types.

Having one eye with "horrible" vision makes it much easier to shoot with both eyes open. The people who have the most trouble are the ones who have (a) excellent vision in both eyes and (b) nearly equal dominance or cross-dominance.

I had to laugh when attending NRA instructors school, for pistol and rifle they teach you to close one eye, then during shotgun they say to use both eyes track the targets because of movement.

That's excellent. :cool:

mercop

11-27-09, 09:15

I agree. My son is 10 and we have started to work one point shooting the last several months. His eyes are bad, when I look through his glasses I can see the future. The trick to anything with kids is making it fun. I give him the G17 airsoft and put him about 7-10 yards from the flagpole in the yard. He raised the gun and pull the trigger when the gun gets between his eyes and the 4 inch in diameter flag pole. He naturally shoots with both eyes open so I let him continue that way. All you hear is "ding, ding, ding" And then a big smile. He is hooked. OH yeah, he switches off hands between shots. He has his strong hand and his other strong hand.- George

SIMPLYDYNAMIC

11-27-09, 13:56

My 2 cents...

Eye issues are one thing and take longer to become proficient at... Some peoples cases maybe never. This where as an instructor that particular student will get extra attention to find his or her way.

But as to learn both open or one shut... it completely depends on what you intend to do as a shooter. If you carry for a living to protect and serve, military, or armed private citizen, then try closing that eye in a dynamics stress situation. If you study how the human eye reacts under stress it is impossible to close an eye. and to train to do so is setting yourself up for failure.

Under a Body Alarm Response there is an increased flow of adrenalin and hormones in the blood stream. this causes an increase visual acuity to the center field of vision. This is a NATURAL human defense mechanism. this is what allows us to take in more information on a threat as we perceive, orient, observe and then decide to act.

So weather you call it 50%, 40%, 30% 20%, etc… of shutting down your vision it doesn’t matter… bottom line is your body will react that way whether you want it to or not… so train to success, don’t train to something your body will do differently or fight in a subconscious state to where it causes hesitation or you end up doing something you didn’t want to which of course could lead to someone’s death.

Now the flip side: Marksmanship, bulls eye shooter, competitor etc… do as you may to enhance your score.

milosz

11-27-09, 14:47

To clarify, I absolutely intend to shoot with both eyes open during training classes or competitions, it feels more natural. The thought was to patch my right eye when shooting paper at indoor ranges, in order to build up greater comfort and ability with my left eye (dominant eye). But as I reflect on it more, I think that would be unnecessary.

However, would it possibly be advisable to patch my left/dominant eye in order to build strength and ability with the right eye, in case I were even in a situation where my right eye were disabled somehow? (nb: not military or law enforcement, so this is in the home or while CCWing)

mercop

11-28-09, 11:31

Just my $.02 but If you have trauma to one eye either both eyes will be compromised or your body will just adjust.- George

uwe1

12-01-09, 00:40

-Closing the non-aiming eye does not reduce 50% of your peripheral vision. The field of vison by the eyes is overlapping. Closing one eye reduces peripheral vision by about 20 to 30 degrees depending on how good your peripheral vision is in the first place.

You are spot on. With one eye, the average human being has between 130-150 degrees of vision. Assuming that your eyes are healthy, the main things limiting the field have to do with your facial topography i.e. how deep set your eyes are and if your big nose gets in the way (no offense to people with big noses). So with one eye closed you lose between 30-50 degrees of vision (many humans are capable of 180 degrees of vision with both eyes open).

uwe1

12-01-09, 01:03

Good stuff... also, stereopsis does not play as big a part in depth perception as a lot of folks like to make out; out beyond arm's reach, we humans use many other cues to determine depth and distance, even with one eye closed.

With stereopsis, each eye perceives the same "scene" from a different angle. Therefore you have two images from different angles that the brain processes and this gives you perceived depth. Generally, this means that if your eyes are wider apart then you might have better stereopsis, but it's actually much more complicated than that as most of this ability is relative to your eyes' and brain's ability to process that image (some are just better at it than others). Also, as K.L. mentions, the usefulness of stereopsis diminishes as the "scene" being viewed gets further away because, say at 10 yards, the image your right and left eye see are very similar as the difference in viewing angle between L and R eye is less. Now take a pencil and hold it 40 cm from your eyes and you'll see that the angle that you see things from is very different and thus the images between L and R eye differ more significantly, which will give you more perception of depth.

Also, if I remember correctly from school, there are only two (2) binocular cues to depth perception, but there are MANY monocular cues. I didn't feel like digging into my texts and typing it all out so I found this on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

The part about monocular and binocular cues are pretty much as I remember from school so I think that information is accurate.

wes007

12-01-09, 22:55

uwe1

12-02-09, 00:43

To the avid pistol shooters, when shooting with both eyes open from an isosceles stance I have a tendency to slightly lean the pistol to my right or left eye depending upon which hand I am using to get a correct sight alignment.

When I dont slightly lean the pistol my eyes see 2 sets of sights.

Is this normal?

I am far from a shooting expert, but from a optics/geometrical standpoint, when you are aiming, you are technically lining up 4 reference points. You have the far target you are trying to hit, the front sight, the center point between the two rear sight posts, and your fovea (part of the eye relating to center vision). If you stand in isosceles stance and stick the gun right between your two eyes instead of in front of your dominant eye, you will have conflicting images between the two eyes and perceive double rear sights.

Also, I reread your post and it seems like you are trying to shoot with both right and left eyes?!?! Once again, I'm not a shooting expert, but from a medical professional point of view, you would probably be best off figuring out your dominant eye and sticking with it for your training....unless, you can consciously pick which eye you are looking through, which is uncommon/rare.

One other thing I just thought of, but I'm not sure if it is practical or even good information for defensive pistol training, instead of leaning the pistol left or right, try slightly turning your head left and right to achieve the correct sight picture. This would also work for those people who have more difficulty getting the correct sight picture with both eyes open. For example, for a right handed, right eye dominant shooter, you would get less interference from the left eye if you turned your head a touch more to the left.

wes007

12-02-09, 14:32

I am far from a shooting expert, but from a optics/geometrical standpoint, when you are aiming, you are technically lining up 4 reference points. You have the far target you are trying to hit, the front sight, the center point between the two rear sight posts, and your fovea (part of the eye relating to center vision). If you stand in isosceles stance and stick the gun right between your two eyes instead of in front of your dominant eye, you will have conflicting images between the two eyes and perceive double rear sights.

Also, I reread your post and it seems like you are trying to shoot with both right and left eyes?!?! Once again, I'm not a shooting expert, but from a medical professional point of view, you would probably be best off figuring out your dominant eye and sticking with it for your training....unless, you can consciously pick which eye you are looking through, which is uncommon/rare.

One other thing I just thought of, but I'm not sure if it is practical or even good information for defensive pistol training, instead of leaning the pistol left or right, try slightly turning your head left and right to achieve the correct sight picture. This would also work for those people who have more difficulty getting the correct sight picture with both eyes open. For example, for a right handed, right eye dominant shooter, you would get less interference from the left eye if you turned your head a touch more to the left.

Thats exactly what was happening. My eyes were seeing to sets of rear sights and the front sight. To answer your question about shooting with both eyes: its not necessarily that Im shooting with both eyes its that Im shooting with both hands and the hand that I use at that specific moment dictates which side I slightly lean my pistol to. But I will definitely look into tilting my head and see if it helps my problem. Thanks for the help ;)

uwe1

12-02-09, 18:02

Thats exactly what was happening. My eyes were seeing to sets of rear sights and the front sight. To answer your question about shooting with both eyes: its not necessarily that Im shooting with both eyes its that Im shooting with both hands and the hand that I use at that specific moment dictates which side I slightly lean my pistol to. But I will definitely look into tilting my head and see if it helps my problem. Thanks for the help ;)

I think you should slightly turn the head, not tilt.