View Full Version : Truth about Training/Instructors and a Review
I wanted to write an opinion post for those looking at developing their skill sets through training programs/instructors. I first must give you a little background so you understand my opinion and thoughts so you can determine for yourself whether they apply to your situation and if they would meet your objectives.
I am in my late 40’s, military background, multiple adventures into the sandbox as an armed contractor but not a “shooter” but a principal. I have been taking a minimum of 3 training courses per year for the last 11 years from multiple instructors, companies and their development programs by many discussed and advertised on this forum, my life and the lives of my security detail depend on it so no expense was spared on training or gear. When I start with a new instructor I never mention any prior training and I always start in their “beginner” training program and work my way through their civilian, military and then contractor (or most advance) course. I have no loyalties/obligations to companies or instructors in writing this post, I do not get a “discounted” rate for future classes by advertising on forums, I write this as an unknown to those companies/instructor that I have had the privilege to train with since the company that employees me pays for training, gear, ammo and weapons.
Evaluation of Instructors
I start with the first and what I consider the most critical for those seeking to be proficient in the art of gun fighting. I have had instructors who’s only claim to fame is the past, what they were over 20-years ago. The enemy has changed, tactics has changed and weaponry has changed. I talked with one instructor during a break in their most advanced course and asked about fighting out of a vehicle and he told me “when I was in we only fought out of helo’s never vehicles”, which is fine if you’re not in “Contractor Prep Course” like I was but we had no training on exiting or fighting from a vehicle.
Many instructors were and are not only great warriors but have become great teachers as well. The hardest thing I believe an instructor can do is to dissect his extensive training/experience into compartmentalized segments that students can grasp as skills to learn/experience during their selected course so they can practice and perfect on their own time.
I look for instructor attitudes that say “this is a way” and not “this is THE way”. Many mechanics/techniques do not work for a student for many different reasons. I remember one class that all the instructor was concerned about was promoting a piece of gear/equipment or his next “advanced” class. Don’t get me wrong, I’m looking for the best products, I am interested in his next class because I took it but advertising every hour is a bit excessive.
I have learned from experience and my employer’s dollars that instructors/programs with accreditation from multiple agencies (more the better) have a much higher level program/instruction than those who’s only claim to fame is a “high round count” which brings me to the next issue.
Round Count Courses
My ammo cost me nothing; pulling the trigger puts a smile on my face so I am a big proponent of pulling the trigger but several programs I have been through had very little substances but an extremely high round count. The instructor to student ration was low, criticism/corrections were non-existent, their only focus was getting you to burn ammo and telling you what a good job you did even though I along with the rest of the class were muzzle swept a dozen times during the class and watched horrible (get you killed) fundamental breakdowns with no critique.
The higher the round count in some cases is a result in minimal instruction/corrections and program substance. I will admit some classes have worked my butt off and my round count was high but everyone in the group were of extreme advancement and the instructors knew it and pushed the students to the limits which was greatly needed and wanted by the students. This leads me back to great instructors, these experienced training professionals can “read” a student in a matter of one drill or kit observation during gear up and determine what their dealing with, I have seen and experienced this first hand and been called on it.
Purpose of Post
I only belong to 3 forums and usually only ask questions and read others post so I can stay current with the latest. I have decided to stick my neck out and give you an unbiased opinion of each training course I attend in the present and future classes. I hope those looking for help in their selection of courses/instructors will find this beneficial.
My recent course was with Tom Perroni, Training Director of the Commonwealth Criminal Justice Academy (www.ccjatraining.com) in Fredericksburg, Virginia which is a very long haul from my location. The course was their beginner “Basic M4 Tactical Carbine and Patrol Rifle Course”. The class was a one day (Saturday) consisting of 3 hours class room and 4 hours range time for $150 which is a great deal compared to some of the others I have taken. One of the great things about the Academy is the location of the accommodations which is the Hospitality House Hotel ($70 per night with Academy discount) in the center of one of the largest shopping centers in Virginia with plenty of restaurants and things to do and only a few hundred yards from the Academy.
The Academy/Classroom is in a very upscale office building with plenty of secure parking. I went to class early (30 min) as I always do to get a feel for the instructors and program. Upon entering the early students are watching a DVD gun fighting training video which helps focus/prepare and energize the students, great idea. At 9:00 AM introductions are made (accreditations from just about every government agency is mentioned) and I find out I have two (2) former SEALS, one (1) Delta Force and one (1) Force Recon as my instructor package today all of which have spent time in the sandbox, for me this is the jackpot based on my objectives.
Classroom was the usual with breaking down your own weapon and cleaning/lubing it taught by an Armorer. From there we went to “Combat Mindset” and the understanding/mechanics of gun fighting.
At the range things got moving quickly, steady and with purpose. This is where low student to instructor ration really has its VALUE. We started with Failure to Fire, Eject and Load Drills. Then we started shooting drills and after the second skill run the instructors realized they had students capable of running more advance drills like “bounding” for us old guys we called it “shoot and scoot” and for you younger guys in your 30’s it was probably called “leap frogging”. Team tactics are by far my favorite and when we moved into this arena I thought if this is the “beginners” class I can’t wait for the next more advance class. We had excellent range safety, by far one of the best, no muzzle sweeps and no accidental discharges. We did have a few primary weapons go down for multiple reasons so transitions were practiced by many routinely. I really enjoyed the instructors yelling and firing during the drills providing the motivation/stress to get your weapon back into the fight, I almost thought I was…………….well you know, back in the shit.
The instructors were constantly giving you feedback after you ran the skill and for me I am not interested in how well I did, only how I can improve. I really appreciate the instructor’s efforts at giving you corrective criticism with a positive attitude.
I have been in several classes with wanna-be operators and they get a major chip on their shoulder when an instructor gives them advice on how to be better. In order to deal with a paying customer many instructors shy away and only say “good job” even when the skill was poorly done by the student. This instructor package would have none of it, if you missed one shot on steel, you stayed in position until you properly completed the skill, even doing the stress exercise shooting. That my friend is honesty in training, something you will be hard pressed to find.
I really like the Instructor team, course program, classroom, accommodations and firing range the Commonwealth Criminal Justice Academy has put together; they were so focused on making me better that I ended up leaving there with a satisfaction that it was by far the best $150 I have ever spent on training. I give their beginner M4 Carbine Course a 10 out of a possible 10.
WV BartMan, that was a very informative read. Especially as how I hadn't previously heard of CCJA Training. Thanks for taking the time for posting, and looking forward to reading more.:cool:
photosniper
11-23-09, 20:59
That is great info. I have been looking into CCJA and was kinda skeptical when I saw the prices of their courses (cheap by today's standards). You're the second person that I've heard give them a stellar review so I'll definitely be heading to VA for a carbine class in the spring.
Thanks
Failure2Stop
11-24-09, 02:01
Good little piece WV.
I wouldn't norally ask this, but since you offered it, could you tell us who you have trained with in the past?
Since many here have trained with pretty much everyone in the industry it would be a nice way for us to weigh your advocacy.
Thanks for posting your thoughts. The training forum here is a great tool for intellectual discussions, I find myself checking here first when I log on. So you brought up some interesting points.
In full disclosure, I took a course at the CCJA that was hosted by them but instructed by another organization. I did not have exactly the same impression of the CCJA crew, but maybe I just caught them on a bad day. I am not interested in judging them or their course, rather, discussing your topic of what makes a course valuable.
It seems rather odd to me to advertise a 1 day basic carbine course and even come close to teaching "team tactics". Leaving a little flexibility in the course curriculum to adjust based on student levels is one thing, but tactics is more than a one day event by itself, and has nothing to do with operating a carbine I can't imagine that those who are signed up to learn basic manipulations and technique would be ready to learn any sort of tactics....
Personally, If I had just picked up a carbine I would not want to attend a class where I was bounding on day one. I would rather learn and practice the fundamentals under the eye of the instructors. I would not expect anything but that from a basic course. Particularly in one day.
Even if some of the students were ready what about the rest of the class? What about the planned curriculum? Were things omitted? What should someone who signs up for a basic carbine class expect to learn?
I'd like to hear what your and the other members view of this is.
Eric
DCJS Instructor
11-24-09, 10:04
Thanks for posting your thoughts. The training forum here is a great tool for intellectual discussions, I find myself checking here first when I log on. So you brought up some interesting points.
In full disclosure, I took a course at the CCJA that was hosted by them but instructed by another organization. I did not have exactly the same impression of the CCJA crew, but maybe I just caught them on a bad day. I am not interested in judging them or their course, rather, discussing your topic of what makes a course valuable.
It seems rather odd to me to advertise a 1 day basic carbine course and even come close to teaching "team tactics". Leaving a little flexibility in the course curriculum to adjust based on student levels is one thing, but tactics is more than a one day event by itself, and has nothing to do with operating a carbine I can't imagine that those who are signed up to learn basic manipulations and technique would be ready to learn any sort of tactics....
Personally, If I had just picked up a carbine I would not want to attend a class where I was bounding on day one. I would rather learn and practice the fundamentals under the eye of the instructors. I would not expect anything but that from a basic course. Particularly in one day.
Even if some of the students were ready what about the rest of the class? What about the planned curriculum? Were things omitted? What should someone who signs up for a basic carbine class expect to learn?
I'd like to hear what your and the other members view of this is.
Eric
Eric,
First let me say I am sorry to hear you have a poor opinion of our organization.
Since we are having an intellectual discussion let’s make sure we compare apples to apples.
This was a TACTICS class. Here is how it was advertised.
AR-15 / M4 TACTICAL CARBINE & PISTOL COURSE
November 21,2009 starting @ 9:00am - 5pm
Prerequisite: Basic Understanding of Safety & a good 50 yard BZO
Class Size: 10 Students Max
Instructors: Tom Perroni & CCJA Staff Instructors
This course is designed to develop a solid foundation of shooting skills with the carbine. The student will exercise these skills in a variety of shooting situations. The student will quickly gain experience, confidence and increase their skill level with the carbine and using it in tactical situations.
The following topics will be discussed during the course:
• Safety
• Nomenclature
• Armorer Maintenance & Proper Lubrication
• Fundamentals of shooting: Stance, Sights, Grip, Trigger Control
• Malfunction Drills (Tap, Rack, Fight) Status Check
• Magazine Changes & Weapons Handling Skills
• Multiple shoots, Multiple targets, Shoot, Move Communicate
• Shooting on the move, Shooting reactive targets
• Shooting behind cover and from barricades
• Transition from Carbine to Handgun
• Breaking Contact & Peeling Left & Right (Bounding)
This one day course is very comprehensive and packs in a great deal of information. It is not a canned course, it is very dynamic and teaches real world skills from Instructors that operate or have operated in High Threat Environments. You will learn more in this one day course than you will from most 2/3 day courses.
CCJA & PTTA M4/ AR-15 Tactical Carbine Course
Gear Requirements:
Rifle / Carbine M4, AR-15, M16 AK, H&K, FN
Tactical Sling
(3/4) 30 Round Magazines
Magazine pouch
Handgun in Semi-auto
Strong side holster
3 Magazines
Magazine pouch
Handheld Light / pouch
Spare Batteries
Knee Pads
Water and Snacks
Wrap Around Eye Protection (clear)
Ear Protection (electronic muffs recommended)
Baseball style hat
Gloves
Weapons Lube & tools
Ammunition Requirements
Pistol 200 Rounds Pistol
Carbine 500 Rounds (.223,5.56,.308,7.62)
Extra Ammunition is recommended, the above numbers are minimums.
WE WILL BE SELLING AMMO FOR THIS COURSE CALL for PRICES!
Additional Gear for Tactics Courses
(for LEO’s & Pre Vetting WPPS, HTT, or HRE operators)
Body Armor with plates
Helmet if issued
Drop leg holster
Basic Medical Kit / Blow out Kit
Course Cost: $150.00
This Course Includes training each day and the CCJA Patrol Rifle AR-15 / M-4 Course Book. After successful completion of the course the student will receive a training completion certificate. Course starts @ 9:00am @ 1380 Central Park Blvd, suite 208 Fredericksburg, Va. 22401
For More Information or to sign up for the course contact Tom Perroni at:
www.ccjatraining.com
tomperroni@msn.com or (540) 322-3000 or (540) 846-7088
MR P. -
Thanks for weighing in. Again, I don't want to argue about a specific class just discuss the merits of Training and Instructors as the OP brought up. But I am happy to use the example you provided.
[QUOTE=DCJS Instructor;502846]Eric,
Prerequisite: Basic Understanding of Safety & a good 50 yard BZO
This is the only Pre req. for your "TACTICS" class? This goes right back to my point of when it is approporate to learn tactics. I submit that anyone who arrives with only the mentioned skills is not prepared for a tactics class. Have you never had anyone with just the above skill set show for this class?
This course is designed to develop a solid foundation of shooting skills with the carbine. The student will exercise these skills in a variety of shooting situations. The student will quickly gain experience, confidence and increase their skill level with the carbine and using it in tactical situations.
The following topics will be discussed during the course:
• Safety
• Nomenclature
• Armorer Maintenance & Proper Lubrication
• Fundamentals of shooting: Stance, Sights, Grip, Trigger Control
• Malfunction Drills (Tap, Rack, Fight) Status Check
• Magazine Changes & Weapons Handling Skills
• Multiple shoots, Multiple targets, Shoot, Move Communicate
• Shooting on the move, Shooting reactive targets
• Shooting behind cover and from barricades
• Transition from Carbine to Handgun
• Breaking Contact & Peeling Left & Right (Bounding)
Again... all of this in a 1 day class? This is a mix of very basic skills and advanced movement techniques. Would you not want to have a very solid foundation in things such as malfunction clearing and transitions before you begin to "PEEL" ? You are teaching nomenclature and shooting on the move on the same day? Each of these topics could be several hours of instruction and many, many hours of practice. So, based on the only pre reqs given, this is a basic class. My question to others here is/was what is appropriate for a basic class?
EPF: All issued you raise are good ones. The first issue you brought up was the earlier class hosted but not conducted by CCJA. I think I may have been in that class (PM me for details) since that is how I found CCJA. My buddy talked me into going with him and I thought I could learn something new but it ended up being a waste of time and money but I found CCJA and thought I would give them a try. The $150 cost had me a little skeptical since everyone else charges double but I thought it’s worth a try.
The second issue you raised was the more advance skills in a beginner class. During class introductions each student gave a brief history of their training, over a third of the class had taken this course before and half of them were on their third repeat of the class. Only two students had no military background but were defiantly gun experienced. Several were three-gun competitors so the class background sounded to me like a more advanced group than what I have experienced in a “beginner” class.
I believe it was clear to the instructors and even the students after several drills that almost all of the students were not your basic beginners, maybe it was the shooting cadence (quick double taps on target), gun manipulation, well-worn gear, attention to safety, it’s hard to say but I know the background of one of the instructors and he was a Seal Instructor with a lot of time down range on the dark side and has a great read on students.
The “bounding” drills we did were elementary, straight line, two-man team with four (4) instructors all over you so if you did anything un-safe they were on it. Which leads me to another point, many on this forum have extensive background in training, how many times have you been to a class where the skill presented was done half-assed by the instructor and very unclear to the student? Thankfully you yourself have run the skill before and knew what to do but your fellow student was totally confused. Do the class a favor, stay up in the front of the line and be the first one to run the skill so the class has a good example of what to do, it will really help others and help to move the class along. I will say the CCJA Instructors did an excellent job at presenting the skill multiple times so it was completely clear to the class before it was exercised and that went for even the FTF, FTE, FTL skills.
Failure2Stop: There is only one company mentioned on this forum who I have not had the pleasure to train with. I will be going back over in 2010 so my employer has approved some major dollars for training in 2010 for me so I will be posting a lot of reviews (AAR). I wish I had kept a journal of all the classes so I could go back and post the good, bad and ugly of each but this time I am and will be posting the AAR’s within 48-hours while it is all still fresh.
Like I said before, I do this to help others in their selection of finding training based on their needs/objectives. This will not be a slamming and or advertising of any training company just facts so you can determine if the company/course/instructors are what your looking for.
Conclusion:
Like I said before, I will do my best to list out all the facts, details and attitudes from all the companies and their courses I take in 2010 which should be greater than 10. I will do my best to answer your questions in a timely manner with no hidden agenda or attitude, just the facts and when I don’t know the answer I will be the first to admit it and tell you to look elsewhere. Anyway, I hope you find these posts informative and helpful in your selection for training. As one great mind put it “In a gunfight you will not rise to the occasion…..You will default to the level of training you have mastered.”
In full disclosure, I took a course at the CCJA that was hosted by them but instructed by another organization. I did not have exactly the same impression of the CCJA crew, but maybe I just caught them on a bad day.
Your logic is jacked. To provide an anecdote as to how, specific only to the above:
Alouiscious Schmendrick invites you over for Thanksgiving with his family, as well as his co-worker, Douchebag MacGillicutty, whom you've never met before. During the course of dinner, Douchebag decides to butt-plow the Schmendrick family dog in front of everybody, and proceeds to wipe himself off on the curtains once done. You get the hell outta there, hoping you never see Douchebag ever again. For all you know, your host was just as horrified as you, but you don't know because you couldn't be bothered to ask, and have subsequently vowed to never speak to poor Schmendrick and his raped dog ever again, based on the actions of a third party not under direct control of the host.
Don't get me started on how you're looking at nothing more than the course curriculum or syllabus, using it to assume some sort of foreknowledge as to how that instructor conducts his class (once again, having asserted that you have not received instruction from Mr. Perroni and his staff), and then sharpshooting him over it.
That's NOT how constructive critical thought processes work.
That's pure opinion and belief, which is just fine, but own your opinion and state it as so. Don't couch it in terms of non-judgemental discourse, because that's pretty clearly not the case.
we like to vacation at VA Beach sometimes in the summer. Maybe I'll make it over for a day.
$150 bucks is less then I would spend with the family on the beach !
worth it just to check it out and see.
Does anyone know if this one-day carbine course is accepted as a prerequisit for secondary carbine courses from any other known instructors ?
Your logic is jacked. To provide an anecdote as to how, specific only to the above:
Alouiscious Schmendrick invites you over for Thanksgiving with his family, as well as his co-worker, Douchebag MacGillicutty, whom you've never met before. During the course of dinner, Douchebag decides to butt-plow the Schmendrick family dog in front of everybody, and proceeds to wipe himself off on the curtains once done. You get the hell outta there, hoping you never see Douchebag ever again. For all you know, your host was just as horrified as you, but you don't know because you couldn't be bothered to ask, and have subsequently vowed to never speak to poor Schmendrick and his raped dog ever again, based on the actions of a third party not under direct control of the host.
Don't get me started on how you're looking at nothing more than the course curriculum or syllabus, using it to assume some sort of foreknowledge as to how that instructor conducts his class (once again, having asserted that you have not received instruction from Mr. Perroni and his staff), and then sharpshooting him over it.
That's NOT how constructive critical thought processes work.
That's pure opinion and belief, which is just fine, but own your opinion and state it as so. Don't couch it in terms of non-judgemental discourse, because that's pretty clearly not the case.
WOW ...... First of all the class was MAGPUL and was excellent, the hosts were questionable.... however, none of that is relevant. No need to have my logic questioned by someone who presumes my intent.
Your comments are not worthy of the kind of discussions here but belong somewhere else.
I have every right to ask logical questions of someone who posts a review of a course and of someone who advertises courses here asking members to spend money there. My comments were accurate and respectful.
Apparently my comments were not that far off base since there is now an AAR up that lays out EXACTLY what I was saying for this very class. This AAR is provided by no less than 2 students
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41999
Mr. P seems more than capable of responding for himself and you are not helping him with your eloquent story. I am sure he is glad to have some clear headed well spoken defenders like you.
No need to get your feathers ruffled about logical questions regarding a class. I believe that any class or instructor should be able to answer simple questions. Should I spend money and travel to a class without questioning what I will get out of it?
I will bow out of this now because I don't have time for internet babble. It is a shame that we cannot hold a logical discussion.
DCJS Instructor
11-24-09, 14:39
WOW ...... First of all the class was MAGPUL and was excellent, the hosts were questionable.... however, none of that is relevant. No need to have my logic questioned by someone who presumes my intent.
Your comments are not worthy of the kind of discussions here but belong somewhere else.
I have every right to ask logical questions of someone who posts a review of a course and of someone who advertises courses here asking members to spend money there. My comments were accurate and respectful.
Apparently my comments were not that far off base since there is now an AAR up that lays out EXACTLY what I was saying for this very class. This AAR is provided by no less than 2 students
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41999
Mr. P seems more than capable of responding for himself and you are not helping him with your eloquent story. I am sure he is glad to have some clear headed well spoken defenders like you.
No need to get your feathers ruffled about logical questions regarding a class. I believe that any class or instructor should be able to answer simple questions. Should I spend money and travel to a class without questioning what I will get out of it?
I will bow out of this now because I don't have time for internet babble. It is a shame that we cannot hold a logical discussion.
Eric,
I welcome your comments and don't take any offense to them at all. In order to be a good instructor one must first be a good student.
I would never be so arrogant as to assume I know everything and can not discuss training logically or answer a student’s question. In fact I would be leery of any Instructor who can not give you an answer as to why they teach a particular method or way of doing things.
However I would welcome you to a class at no charge so that you can have first hand knowledge of the course. All I would ask in return is an AAR the good the bad and the ugly.
I am in no way the best Instructor in this field but I believe we deliver solid training to our students for the money. All I ask is that you are objective and take a course before dissecting it.
And since you named the course MAGPUL I will tell you that their were students in that course who should have been in a Basic course. They were in no way prepared for what they were doing. I had to pull one gentleman because I was afraid he was going to pass out due to heat stroke.
I can only hope that the actions that left any negative impressions in your mind were not caused by me directly. I have had some staff changes since then. I also tried to rectify the issues that arose as quickly as possible. Which was a miss communication, however my facility my problem.
Let me also say that this is in NO WAY a slam on MAGPUL Chris or D Ray! I have much love for those guys.
We should be open to discuss training on this forum and will tell you that those who answered you are students who have taken the course and probably feel just as strongly about the topic as you do.
Thanks for posting!
Tom
MR. P-
Good post. Argue means to disagree not to fight. You obviously understand that.
Submariner
11-24-09, 18:50
I wouldn't norally ask this, but since you offered it, could you tell us who you have trained with in the past?
Failure2Stop: There is only one company mentioned on this forum who I have not had the pleasure to train with....
With all due respect, I submit that your response to Failure2Stop was non-responsive.
In law school, my Dean stated that he was a four-point Calvinist (there are five.) When I ask him which point he excluded from his theology, he said I would have to figure that out. Fair enough. He was the Dean.
You, however, have neither positional authority nor have you established here any bona fides. Therefore, I'll rephrase the question in two parts:
Would you please name each "company named on this forum" which provides training?
With which one have you "not had the pleasure to train"?
Submariner: I have not had the pleasure to train with Grey Group/Tiger Swan yet, sorry counselor.:D The next question usually goes "Dan, of all the companies you have trained with, who's the best/worst?" The answer is I am only going to give AAR's from courses taken within 48-hours of course completion. I will not do comparisons from one training company or instructor to another. I will be doing several repeat courses with repeat instructors in 2010. I will focus on the positives with just a brief detail on the negatives, I will not post flames against any companies or instructors but will share in private if your interested.
Submariner
11-25-09, 12:46
Submariner: I have not had the pleasure to train with Grey Group/Tiger Swan yet, sorry counselor.:D The next question usually goes "Dan, of all the companies you have trained with, who's the best/worst?"
Still not responsive.
Putting words in peoples' mouths is a dirty habit.:D
Have you trained, then, with Dean Caputo?
Iraq Ninja
11-25-09, 12:59
I am in my late 40’s, military background, multiple adventures into the sandbox as an armed contractor but not a “shooter” but a principal.
Hey, just wondering if we may have crossed paths in the past. I have been playing in the Sandbox since early 2004 to today. Feel free to send me a PM if you want.
Tom and I crossed paths back in 2004 in Virginia. No problems on my end with what he is doing...
BLACK LION
11-25-09, 16:32
Your logic is jacked. To provide an anecdote as to how, specific only to the above:
Alouiscious Schmendrick invites you over for Thanksgiving with his family, as well as his co-worker, Douchebag MacGillicutty, whom you've never met before. During the course of dinner, Douchebag decides to butt-plow the Schmendrick family dog in front of everybody, and proceeds to wipe himself off on the curtains once done. You get the hell outta there, hoping you never see Douchebag ever again. For all you know, your host was just as horrified as you, but you don't know because you couldn't be bothered to ask, and have subsequently vowed to never speak to poor Schmendrick and his raped dog ever again, based on the actions of a third party not under direct control of the host.
Don't get me started on how you're looking at nothing more than the course curriculum or syllabus, using it to assume some sort of foreknowledge as to how that instructor conducts his class (once again, having asserted that you have not received instruction from Mr. Perroni and his staff), and then sharpshooting him over it.
That's NOT how constructive critical thought processes work.
That's pure opinion and belief, which is just fine, but own your opinion and state it as so. Don't couch it in terms of non-judgemental discourse, because that's pretty clearly not the case.
Hhahahahahahhah... I about sprayed snot all over my monitor from laughing.
That is by far the best analogy I have ever seen, read or heard...
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
11-27-09, 11:12
And since you named the course MAGPUL I will tell you that their were students in that course who should have been in a Basic course. They were in no way prepared for what they were doing. I had to pull one gentleman because I was afraid he was going to pass out due to heat stroke.
I can only hope that the actions that left any negative impressions in your mind were not caused by me directly. I have had some staff changes since then. I also tried to rectify the issues that arose as quickly as possible. Which was a miss communication, however my facility my problem.
Let me also say that this is in NO WAY a slam on MAGPUL Chris or D Ray! I have much love for those guys.
Tom
Tom,
Please do not add us into your retort on a negitive post... Especially since D-Ray (a very experienced 18D) pulled that student due to seeing a overheating issue out, and not you...
glock_forty5
11-28-09, 16:47
I have taken several classes with Tom Perroni and I was at that MagPul class. Tom agreed to host it last minute as the original location in Culpepper, VA was not available or not suitable (not sure which). The only real issue we had was a few missing target stands (I think there were 20 students) Saturday morning. If I recall, additional target stands were there before lunch time. Other than the visit from the blonde cop chick (Costa sweet talked her) I did not see any issues with Tom's staff at that class.
I have taken training from CCJA, Black Water, and MagPul. All offer something different and I have no hesitations in recommending anyone of them. The big plus for me about CCJA beside the instruction is the one day format and that they are a two hour drive away (I am not comfortable flying with my gear). I can break away for one day with out scheduling time off of work.
Just my 2 cents,
JT
ETA - Tom is a straight shooter and has always been fair with me. I have been to one of his classes where only 7 of the planned 15 students showed up and he still held the class (probably losing money). I thought it was a classy move. I consider him a friend.
Thanks WV. Very informative.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.