Another Wolf ammo myth?

[andy t]

I recently got off the phone with a tech support rep for a reputable firearms manufacture about a question with my rifle. I mentioned that I was shooting wolf ammo through it. The ammo went through with no issues. However, the rep said that Wolf isn't quite made to SAAMI spec and its bullet is "bigger?" and can cause accuracy issues. Is there any truth to that? Especially in mil spec, chrom lined barrels with 5.56 chambers?

[Ed L.]

I've heard the same thing. The rep told me that the rounds might be slightly oversized in diameter and wear out my bore faster.

[RogerinTPA]

I recently got off the phone with a tech support rep for a reputable firearms manufacture about a question with my rifle. I mentioned that I was shooting wolf ammo through it. The ammo went through with no issues. However, the rep said that Wolf isn't quite made to SAAMI spec and its bullet is "bigger?" and can cause accuracy issues. Is there any truth to that? Especially in mil spec, chrom lined barrels with 5.56 chambers?


I've heard it and read that it's SAAMI spec (same with PMC Bronze), and believe it to be true, but first I've heard of the bullet being bigger, affecting accuracy. It's accuracy issues stem from the fact that it's Russian (close enough, is good enough). It is simply inexpensive plinking/training ammo, nothing more. I find it overall to be as accurate as XM193, or Q3131, maybe less, depending on the lot/case I'm currently going through. Since I don't shoot precision rifles anymore, and having shot metric crap load of it over the years, I find it adequate and accurate enough, to run it during personal range sessions, as well as carbine courses. If I can recall, since joining this forum, I've heard more complaints against XM193 ammo, than I have about Wolf.

[Redline]

I was about to post a question about Wolf 223 ammo being used on Colt AR type rifles. Do you think it is bad for these rifles? Does the steel case put wear on the extractor or anything else? Bottom line, is it bad for my Colt AR types compared to American mfg brass cased ammo?

I recently bought a Saiga 7.62x39. I have another post on here about this rifle. I shot both Golden Tiger and Wolf ammo through it and I was so plesantly surprised at the quality of the rifle, the tightness of the groups, and the reliability of both the ammos and the rifle. But the Russian rifles are made to shoot these steel cased ammos aren't they?

I guess my point on the Saiga shooting the Wolf and Golden Tiger is that I was pleased with the results. So will I be as pleased with this ammo in my Colt AR types and will I need to worry about rifle longevity in both the Saiga and Colts with this ammo?

The Wolf is so much more affordable than anything else in 223 that I am tempted to go for it. Usually u can get it for $300 for 1000 delivered from gunbroker.com. BTW I saw PMC Bronze on gunbroker for $359 plus shipping. Not bad compared to almost all other ammo except the Wolf.

[Shawn.L]

I have a few thousand rounds of Wolf through my RRA without issue. Same extractor, has also seen prob 1k of brass in that rifle.

how much $$$ did I save shooting Wolf (I dont reload) ? prob $500 easy. How much would a new extractor cost if I had worn it............

I shoot CMP with guys that shoot Wolf at practice sessions through their dedicated match rifles and manage to get some pretty nice groups (high 470's or 480 out of 500) regularly.

[RogerinTPA]

I was about to post a question about Wolf 223 ammo being used on Colt AR type rifles. Do you think it is bad for these rifles? Does the steel case put wear on the extractor or anything else? Bottom line, is it bad for my Colt AR types compared to American mfg brass cased ammo?

I recently bought a Saiga 7.62x39. I have another post on here about this rifle. I shot both Golden Tiger and Wolf ammo through it and I was so plesantly surprised at the quality of the rifle, the tightness of the groups, and the reliability of both the ammos and the rifle. But the Russian rifles are made to shoot these steel cased ammos aren't they?

I guess my point on the Saiga shooting the Wolf and Golden Tiger is that I was pleased with the results. So will I be as pleased with this ammo in my Colt AR types and will I need to worry about rifle longevity in both the Saiga and Colts with this ammo?

The Wolf is so much more affordable than anything else in 223 that I am tempted to go for it. Usually u can get it for $300 for 1000 delivered from gunbroker.com. BTW I saw PMC Bronze on gunbroker for $359 plus shipping. Not bad compared to almost all other ammo except the Wolf.

No problems in shooting it in both of my 6920s, LMT MRP and Saber Middy/Colt hybrid.

No, it's not bad for your rifle. Some consider the fact that if your weapon won't handle Wolf, then it isn't up to par in the first place. Some folks won't shoot it at all, and completely detest Wolf and other eastern european steel cased ammo, from using it in their high end ARs, but this is a just a hobby for me, although a serious, fun and expensive one. My ARs function just fine. I've had more malfunctions through bad mags, than I had with the actual ammo itself (Probably over 15K rounds fired with Wolf, Barnaul, Brown and Silver bear, both lacquer and polymer coatings). I have several cases of brass Privi M193 ammo, but see no need to use it, since the steel cased ammo gets me more training opportunity. If I can get the same level of training with less expensive ammo, then I'm all for the cost savings, while allowing me to shoot more often.

Since firearm designs are for brass cased ammo, I have noticed higher extractor wear, so I change them out every 5K rounds fired for piece of mind.

Forgot to mention NOT to mix steel ammo with brass, during the same session. You will eventually get a stuck case on the brass, since it will expand as it's supposed to, and be glued into the chamber from the higher amount of debris/dirt being left buy the steel cased ammo.

Lube the BCG generously.

[William B.]

I try not to shoot steel cased ammo through my Colt much. I had a lesser AR15 before the Colt and it would get all jacked up from Wolf, Silver Bear, etc. That may have been the rifle though. Possibly an out of spec chamber from what I've heard on this forum. My Colt would fire it, but would short stroke a lot with this type of ammo. This was during the first hundred rounds or so, though and I haven't put any steel cased ammo through it since. Maybe it was the rifle breaking in. Maybe it was under powered ammo. Maybe it was the steel case. I'm not sure. I'll try some more once I pass the 1K mark.
I have a Yugo AK that fires anything I put in the mag, though. Maybe it's just the difference in the gas systems.
That's my experience so I'm staying away from it with the AR for now.

[RogerinTPA]

I try not to shoot steel cased ammo through my Colt much. I had a lesser AR15 before the Colt and it would get all jacked up from Wolf, Silver Bear, etc. That may have been the rifle though. Possibly an out of spec chamber from what I've heard on this forum. My Colt would fire it, but would short stroke a lot with this type of ammo. This was during the first hundred rounds or so, though and I haven't put any steel cased ammo through it since. Maybe it was the rifle breaking in. Maybe it was under powered ammo. Maybe it was the steel case. I'm not sure. I'll try some more once I pass the 1K mark.
I have a Yugo AK that fires anything I put in the mag, though. Maybe it's just the difference in the gas systems.
That's my experience so I'm staying away from it with the AR for now.

Agreed. Most have problems if their AR is to the right of the chart, due to having .223 chambers, while the barrel is stamped 5.56. Those same folks experience popped primers using XM193 ammo as well, while others get popped primers with it, regardless of the type of AR being used.

[William B.]

Agreed. Most have problems if their AR is to the right of the chart, due to having .223 chambers, while the barrel is stamped 5.56. Those same folks experience popped primers using XM193 ammo as well, while others get popped primers with it, regardless of the type of AR being used.

Any ideas as to why my Colt was having trouble with it? It's a 6920 with 575 rounds through it and has NEVER malfunctioned with brass cased ammunition.

[bkb0000]

Any ideas as to why my Colt was having trouble with it? It's a 6920 with 575 rounds through it and has NEVER malfunctioned with brass cased ammunition.

small gas port, FA BCG, H buffer combined with weak low-pressure ammo... happens to professional grade weapons sometimes. switching to a C buff while shooting wolf would probably fix it.

while we're on the topic of wolf... i think it's been discussed a few times, but i'm still a bit unclear on it- what's the deal with this "bi-metal?" i had a bunch of wolf left over from almost a decade ago that said "copper jacket" that was true copper FMJ.. i've heard that current wolf, which, i note, does not say "copper jacket" anymore on the box, is basicaly copper-plated steel- not a true copper FMJ. is this true, and what are the implications of ramming steel through your bore if so? doesn't seem like something i'd do to any of my weapons.

[William B.]

small gas port, FA BCG, H buffer combined with weak low-pressure ammo...

So the carbines have a smaller gas port than a rifle? The fact that they were .223 rounds probably didn't help either...

[Keesh]

while we're on the topic of wolf... i think it's been discussed a few times, but i'm still a bit unclear on it- what's the deal with this "bi-metal?" i had a bunch of wolf left over from almost a decade ago that said "copper jacket" that was true copper FMJ.. i've heard that current wolf, which, i note, does not say "copper jacket" anymore on the box, is basicaly copper-plated steel- not a true copper FMJ. is this true, and what are the implications of ramming steel through your bore if so? doesn't seem like something i'd do to any of my weapons.

It's very mild steel with copper plating. Basically it's a little cheaper to produce than pure copper. The steel will not be touching your bore. Before we all jump to conclusions on what we 'heard' about Wolf and PMC diameter being oversized, why don't we pull a few bullets and measure them? I've heard plenty of times that steel casings will damage your extractor, but the fact is, the mild steel that is used, is actually softer than brass. In fact, when I get home in a couple hours, I'll measure the diameter of a few bullets for you guys :)

[RogerinTPA]

It's very mild steel with copper plating. Basically it's a little cheaper to produce than pure copper. The steel will not be touching your bore. Before we all jump to conclusions on what we 'heard' about Wolf and PMC diameter being oversized, why don't we pull a few bullets and measure them? I've heard plenty of times that steel casings will damage your extractor, but the fact is, the mild steel that is used, is actually softer than brass. In fact, when I get home in a couple hours, I'll measure the diameter of a few bullets for you guys :)

Bingo!

Much appreciated. :cool:

[Keesh]

OK, so here's what I got:

Wolf 55gr FMJ - .2240"
PMC 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 75gr Match - .2240"

While we're dispelling Wolf myths,



Good brass cases are generally made of 260 brass, also called "cartridge brass." This material has a hardness of HRB77 (that's a Rockwell Hardness of B77.)

Steel cases like found in Wolf ammo are made of mild steel, something like a 1018. I have not been able to find the specific formulation Wolf uses, but it is well known that they use a cheap mild steel, and 1018 (or a similar material) is the likely alloy (and really, it wouldn't make sense for Wolf to use a harder, more expensive steel.) 1018 has a hardness of HRB71.

Yeah, 1018 mild steel is actually SOFTER than 260 brass.



Ok, so I registered for the technical data area on Carpenter's website. Their 158 alloy is rated on the Rockwell C scale, which is different from the B scale used to rate the 260 brass and 1018 mild steel. The C scale is used for harder steels. I'm looking for a conversion factor to compare it to 260 and 1018.

EDIT: I found a conversion table... The case hardness of the 158 (case hardness being the one that matters here, as it's the material that's in contact with the steel cartridge case) is HRC 61-62 depending on the treatment. The conversion chart for HRC to HRB doesn't even go that far. The HARDEST HRC rating that's converted to HRB is HRC 55, which corresponds to HRB of 120. What can logically be gained from this is that the HRC 61-62 case hardness of the 158 alloy is MASSIVELY harder than the 1018 and 260 materials. (Taken the other way, trying to convert the HRB numbers of 77 for the 260 and 71 for the 1018 would actually result in a HRC number LESS than 0) For shits and giggles, the core hardness of the 158 (that's the part under the case hardening, which doesn't really matter for our purpose here since it never contacts the cartridge case) is 37-38. That corresponds to a HRB rating of 110, still massively harder than either 260 or 1018.

[Keesh]

As far as accuracy, it's a well known fact that Wolf is far from Match ammo. I would say that the reason behind this is inconsistency in projectile weight and powder charges. Quality match projectiles will be closer to their advertised values, while inexpensive, bulk projectiles will deviate a bit more, take that for what it's worth.

Bottom line, Wolf will not cause your rifle undue wear, and I would not think twice about using it as practice ammunition.

[William B.]

So what about the steel cases not expanding in the chamber when the round is fired like a brass case would? :confused: Was that just dispelled too since the steel casings are softer than brass?

[ST911]

Accelerated wear with steel cased ammunition isn't entirely a myth. What it does, why, and at what rate, and as compared to conventional brass, varies. I thought it was here, but perhaps it was elsewhere that an engineering type noted that material hardness wasn't the only variable to consider. Something followed about friction or something like it.


So what about the steel cases not expanding in the chamber when the round is fired like a brass case would? :confused: Was that just dispelled too since the steel casings are softer than brass?

They expand in the chamber. The issue is that they don't contract.

The engineer types could chime in here again, but this would also seem to a variable in extractor/extraction issues. The gun and it's components have to work harder to get the case out, especially in tighter chambers.

Stack some of these up and a myth is easier to make reality. Fire a steel case that doesn't contract in a gun with a tight-ish chamber with "good-as" components like an extractor, and voila.

[bkb0000]

Accelerated wear with steel cased ammunition isn't entirely a myth. What it does, why, and at what rate, and as compared to conventional brass, varies. I thought it was here, but perhaps it was elsewhere that an engineering type noted that material hardness wasn't the only variable to consider. Something followed about friction or something like it.



They expand in the chamber. The issue is that they don't contract.

The engineer types could chime in here again, but this would also seem to a variable in extractor/extraction issues. The gun and it's components have to work harder to get the case out, especially in tighter chambers.

Stack some of these up and a myth is easier to make reality. Fire a steel case that doesn't contract in a gun with a tight-ish chamber with "good-as" components like an extractor, and voila.

i've always heard, and thought the consensus around here was, that the problem with steel/wolf specifically is it doesnt expand/seal the chamber during powder burn, dirtying the chamber faster. and causing stuck cases from the thick, tacky residue buildup Wolf powder leaves behind. this is why it's widely recommended people not shoot brass after shooting steel- risk of stuck cases goes way up.

having done none of my own research on the topic, i can't argue with any authority, though. and either theory sounds fine to me. i have, personally, fired plenty of brass following steel, and suffered no increase rate of stuck cases.

i guess the easiest way to tell is to caliper some casings.. since i don't save steel casings, i don't have any to measure..

[CC556]

So what about the steel cases not expanding in the chamber when the round is fired like a brass case would? :confused: Was that just dispelled too since the steel casings are softer than brass?

There are 2 different issues here. The first is the idea that the mild steel will cause more wear than the brass cases. We know that's not the case. The other issue here is the tensile strength of the materials. The steel, while softer than the brass, does have a higher tensile strength. That will make it more resistant to expanding.

[whiterabbit05]

OK, so here's what I got:

Wolf 55gr FMJ - .2240"
PMC 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 75gr Match - .2240"


Thanks a lot.

[RogerinTPA]

So the carbines have a smaller gas port than a rifle? The fact that they were .223 rounds probably didn't help either...

I haven't had problems with my two 6920s shooting steel case ammo, ever. Extractor issues, being worn, yes. Mag issues (double feeds), you bet, steel cased ammo it self, no.

[RogerinTPA]

OK, so here's what I got:

Wolf 55gr FMJ - .2240"
PMC 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 55gr FMJ - .2240"
Hornady 75gr Match - .2240"

While we're dispelling Wolf myths,



Good info.:cool: Thanks for the Myth Busting.;)

[CC556]

Honestly, and without pretension, Wolf is fine plinking ammo. I wouldn't rely on it for home defense or competition, but as far as putting rounds down-range goes, it's great.

[William B.]

I haven't had problems with my two 6920s shooting steel case ammo, ever. Extractor issues, being worn, yes. Mag issues (double feeds), you bet, steel cased ammo it self, no.

Mine did, but like I said that was during the first hundred rounds or so. I'm still getting it broken in right now. I'm going to try some more steel cased ammo after the 1K round mark and see how well it functions then.

[RogerinTPA]

Mine did, but like I said that was during the first hundred rounds or so. I'm still getting it broken in right now. I'm going to try some more steel cased ammo after the 1K round mark and see how well it functions then.

A carbine should have at least 1200-1500 rounds on it, in order to test it's reliability, in the shortest time possible, preferably in a weekend (the typical round count in a 3 day carbine course). If anything breaks, it will probably happen in that time frame. If it holds up, then it's GTG. If not, replace with quality parts and Charlie Mike. However, money is tight these days, even Wolf is hovering around $300.00 a case. I'd just ensure that I got around 1500 rounds on it, prior to attending a class, so you'll know your AR can handle an equal amount of rounds fired in such a short 2 or 3 day shooting schedule.

[William B.]

A carbine should have at least 1200-1500 rounds on it, in order to test it's reliability, in the shortest time possible, preferably in a weekend (the typical round count in a 3 day carbine course). If anything breaks, it will probably happen in that time frame. If it holds up, then it's GTG. If not, replace with quality parts and Charlie Mike. However, money is tight these days, even Wolf is hovering around $300.00 a case. I'd just ensure that I got around 1500 rounds on it, prior to attending a class, so you'll know your AR can handle an equal amount of rounds fired in such a short 2 or 3 day shooting schedule.

I've got 575 rounds through it right now, but I'm only shooting about 200 rounds a month due to money. I would love to be able to go through rounds like a lot of you guys, but I live on an E-4 salary. I'll take any ammo you're willing to donate, though ;)
I need to invest in a reloading press...

[RogerinTPA]

I've got 575 rounds through it right now, but I'm only shooting about 200 rounds a month due to money. I would love to be able to go through rounds like a lot of you guys, but I live on an E-4 salary. I'll take any ammo you're willing to donate, though ;)
I need to invest in a reloading press...

I wouldn't worry about it. Shoot what you can and learn all you can. Most of us are not competitive in that regard. Most of us are trying to spread the wealth of knowledge on shooting. At least you are able to put some rounds down range. 200 rounds a month is more than the average gun owner shoots in a year. ;)