View Full Version : Vickers Tactical 1911
The specs have been released for the Vickers Tactical/Nighthawk 1911 collaboration.
http://www.vickerstactical.com/VT1911.htm
Here is the rundown on the specs:
· Caspian Slide and Frame
· Front Grasping Grooves - Caspian Enhanced National Match Style
· Ball end mill relief cut on front sides of slide
· 5 inch Match Grade Barrel and Bushing - crown of muzzle flush with bushing
· Low Mount Novak or Low Mount Heinie sights standard - shooter specifies
· Dovetail Front Sight - serrated and roll pinned in place
· 3-Dot Tritium Night Sights
· Vickers/Yam Hard Use Trigger
· 25 LPI Checkered Frontstrap
· Integral Tactical Magwell
· Flat Mainspring Housing, checkered with a recessed lanyard loop
· Integral Plunger Tube
· Spare fitted extractor
· Top of Slide Serrated
· Rear of Slide Serrated - 40 LPI
· Beavertail grip safety with pad for positive disengagement
· Match hammer
· 4 lb trigger pull
· Slotted grip screws
· Strider gunner grips custom fitted with beveled edges in green, black, or coyote brown
· Carry bevel package
· Visual 'on fire' indicator
· Extended Thumb Safety
· Tactical Extended Mag Release
· Reliability Package to Vickers Tactical specs
· Black Permacoat finish
· Vickers Tactical logo
· Special 'LV' serial number prefix
· Shipped with 2 magazines, test target, and Certificate of Authenticity
Available Options Include:
· Low mount Bo Mar sights
· Ambidextrous Safety
· Crimson Trace Lasergrips (slide stop pin made flush for CTC grips, for left handed shooters, or on request)
· Desert Tan Permacoat with black fittings
· No Front Grasping Grooves
These are photos of Ken Hackathorns personal T&E pistol. Ricky T gave me permission to post them up. He also has a thread up on lightfighter.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/VT1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/VT2.jpg
Several of us got to talk with Larry recently and he seemed very excited about this pistol. By the looks for these specs it sounds like a truly outstanding 1911. Larry had nothing but great things to say about Nighthawk’s craftsmanship. Anybody who has been around him for ten minutes will know he only accepts perfection. I’m looking forward to getting my hands on one.
I'm expecting $10K worth of personal 1911s in the near future. I felt like I was done buying good "working guns", and would limit myself to buying heirlooms for the kids. Then this came to be. I have been upset about missing the times when LAV was building pistols for quite some time now. Timing is everything, you know! As with most whose work I admire most, I would not have supplied a spec sheet, but rather a blank check and blank canvas so that he could build what he believed best fit this user's needs.
Here I have been given that opportunity. Thanks LAV, and Nighthawk!
Now hurry up everybody, buy a bunch of gear from me so I can afford one!;)
That most definitely is a beautiful pistol. But I've been following these threads over at 10-8 and when I see the price tag attached to these custom jobs, I just go, "Oh well, maybe some day I'll die and be reincarnated and I'll get my own inheritance and I'll be able to afford something like that....."
Again, beautiful pistol, masterfully executed, just too damn rich for my blood. But please, everyone else enjoy.
Here's how y'all can get one of these. Sell all your Lorcins, Makarovs, Mosin Nagants, SKSs, AKs, glocks, etc. Put your money into a fine weapon. When my opportunity to own a Vickers built pistol came, I jumped at the chance, no question asked. Sold a Wilson and Les Baer to get the Vickers. Best move I ever made.
When my opportunity to own a Vickers built pistol came, I jumped at the chance, no question asked. Sold a Wilson and Les Baer to get the Vickers. Best move I ever made.
now thats an endorsement.
now thats an endorsement.
I got the opportunity to handle Sam's LAV gun and it is simply perfection. The craftsmanship as you might expect is simply out of this world. I have never felt a smoother operating 1911. Plus Sam does not let his waste away in a safe; he shoots the hell out of it. :D
Most shooters have no real clue on just how good a 1911 can be, IF they spend the money. Obviously that’s also the down side.
I got the opportunity to handle Sam's LAV gun and it is simply perfection. .
Thanks man. That gun sure gets around :)
FYI - Nighthawk has just updated their website to include the Vickers Tactical gun.
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/VickersTactical.aspx
No pictures of the production guns are posted yet though.
My Vickers arrived today. As a NHC dealer my original intentions, like any business man was to sell the Vickers....but....I may have to hold on to this one :D
Here are some pics. Not the best but I'll do a better job and post more this weekend.
http://stores.mooneysfirearms.com/Categories.bok?category=NIGHTHAWK+CUSTOM
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66
Very impressive.
Yes, it is. I picked mine up today.:D
Yes, it is. I picked mine up today.:D
Let's see some pictures!
GastonG-NoVa
09-02-06, 21:21
$?
How much for the LAV?
Business_Casual
09-02-06, 21:29
$2,875 G man.
How's that upper running?
M_P
GastonG-NoVa
09-04-06, 19:22
so many uppers...which one?
This is one of the best photos I've seen posted of a VT/Nighthawk.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/VT-left.jpg
I transfered one of these last week and got to give it a good once over. I hope he got a bad one, because it was absolutely nothing "nice".
I dont appreciate the meaningless things the "1911 people" obsess over, but I understand what they obsess over, and what they look for.
The dust cover was full of milling marks, as was the SN recess.
The trigger was fit poorly and had large gap between the guard and the bottom of the trigger.
The rear of the slide was serrated, but they forgot to serrate the ejector!
There grip safety was fit nice, but not “good enough” for a $2K 1911.
Same can be said for the blending of the thumb safety.
There was an OBVIOUS blemish at the bottom inside of the MSH.
From what I saw, it was nothing more than an over priced production pistol, not worth near the asking price and I told him to send it back and get the ejector taken care of at least.
I'm sure it shoots well, and will function as intended, but for the price it was lacking. I hope he just got a bad one.
I dont appreciate the meaningless things the "1911 people" obsess over, but I understand what they obsess over, and what they look for.
:)
Steve the salesman.
Talks crap about "1911 People" in one thread and tries to sell $2400 RRA's in another.
I wish you had taken a photo. I would have liked to see a few photos of a VT/NH were NH "Forgot" to serrate the extractor. I assume "Ejector" was a typo because it isn't supposed to be serrated.
This is the ass end of a VT/NH:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/VICKERS_8.jpg
FYI - I have this one on order:
-Nighthawk Custom Vickers Tactical
-Integral light rail
-Bo-mar low mount adj sights forward mounted on slide - SA TRP Operator style.
-Black Strider grips
-Ambi-Safety
-Slide stop pin cut flush
-Checker under trigger guard
I wish you had taken a photo. I would have liked to see a few photos of a VT/NH were NH "Forgot" to serrate the extractor. I assume "Ejector" was a typo because it isn't supposed to be serrated.
I meant Ejector, I cant rememeber the last time I saw a 1911 in that price range with rear serrations that did not serrate the ejector. I expected more attention to detail for that price.
While I haven't seen either a Vickers or 10-8 Nighthawk in person, it does appear that they are taking a page out of Nike's book with regards to celebrity endorsements.
David Thomas
11-29-06, 06:09
... it does appear that they are taking a page out of Nike's book with regards to celebrity endorsements.
Nighthawk is not the first or last:
Sprinfield - Rob Leatham & FBI
Kimber - LAPD SWAT & DET-1
Les Baer - Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch
Para Ordnance - Todd Jarrett
Nighthawk is not the first or last:
Sprinfield - Rob Leatham & FBI
Kimber - LAPD SWAT & DET-1
Les Baer - Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch
Para Ordnance - Todd Jarrett
That is very true. Don't forget Colt and S&W and their Gunsite models as well, and Dan Wesson has had at least one in the form of a GunDoc model. Isn't more than one maker doing a "Thunder Ranch" these days?
Isn't more than one maker doing a "Thunder Ranch" these days?
IIRC, S&W has a Thunder Ranch revolver, a fixed-sight N-frame. I don't recall any other TR 1911s.
David Thomas
11-29-06, 08:25
IIRC, S&W has a Thunder Ranch revolver, a fixed-sight N-frame. I don't recall any other TR 1911s.
I know Wilson used to make the Thunder Ranch 1911 and I think Robar still makes a version but does not advertise it much.
Also forgot the S&W Doug Koenig 1911.
...and now back to the subject of the Vicker's NH.
The one thing that I would really like to check out on this pistol is the integral plunger tube. Seems like an idea that was long overdue on a single stack.
The feature I don't understand is the fire indicator dot on the side. It doesn't bother me, but I don't see a need for it either.
I would love to have one of these 1911's and it is on my wish list, but that list is long ... too long. The 10-8 Nighthawk would also be nice.
Les Baer's been making TR 1911's for several years now.
http://www.lesbaer.com/thundr.html
My number one question regarding the Vickers gun, (and to a lesser extent the 10-8 gun) is what makes it a $2800+ gun vs. the $2200 GRP. I see that the rear of the slide is serrated and it comes with a magwell, but are there other apects that make it more expensive? I wouldn't count the sights/trigger as those really shouldn't be upcharges from the standard parts.
While I haven't seen either a Vickers or 10-8 Nighthawk in person, it does appear that they are taking a page out of Nike's book with regards to celebrity endorsements.
:confused:
I must have missed the point to this.
My number one question regarding the Vickers gun, (and to a lesser extent the 10-8 gun) is what makes it a $2800+ gun vs. the $2200 GRP. I see that the rear of the slide is serrated and it comes with a magwell, but are there other apects that make it more expensive? I wouldn't count the sights/trigger as those really shouldn't be upcharges from the standard parts.
Think about it.
Vickers Tactical 1911, by Nighthawk Custom specs:
-Caspian Slide and Frame
-Front Grasping Grooves - Caspian Enhanced National Match Style
-Ball end mill relief cut on front sides of slide
-5 inch Match Grade Barrel and Bushing - crown of muzzle flush with bushing
-Low Mount Novak or Low Mount Heinie sights standard - shooter specifies
-Dovetail Front Sight - serrated and roll pinned in place
-3-Dot Tritium Night Sights
-Vickers "Hard Use" Trigger
-25 LPI Checkered Frontstrap
-Integral Tactical Magwell
-Flat Mainspring Housing, checkered with a recessed lanyard loop
-Integral Plunger Tube
-Spare fitted extractor
-Top of Slide Serrated
-Rear of Slide Serrated - 40 LPI
-Beavertail grip safety with pad for positive disengagement
-Match hammer
-4 lb trigger pull
-Slotted grip screws
-Strider gunner grips custom fitted with beveled edges in green, black, or coyote brown
-Carry bevel package
-Visual 'on fire' indicator
-Extended Thumb Safety
-Tactical Extended Mag Release
-Reliability Package to Vickers Tactical specs
-Black Permacoat finish
-Vickers Tactical logo
-Special 'LV' serial number prefix
-Shipped with 2 magazines, test target, and Certificate of Authenticity
Any custom or semi-custom 1911 will easily top the $3000 mark when you add options & features like these. As a matter of fact many of these features can only be found on a VT/NH.
:confused:
I must have missed the point to this.
It was just an observation, relax.
Think about it.
Vickers Tactical 1911, by Nighthawk Custom specs:
-Ball end mill relief cut on front sides of slide - whats the value add of this feature?
crown of muzzle flush with bushing - - whats the value add of this feature?
-Vickers "Hard Use" Trigger - What benefit does this trigger have over the trigger in the GRP?
-Reliability Package to Vickers Tactical specs - The vickers tactical is reliable, but the GRP isnt, or the Vickers isnt as reliable as the GRP so it needs an additional reliability upgrade?
I though about it, and from what I've seen, I'm not impressed for the price. IMO, once you get past 2K in a 1911, I expect much more attention to the little things. Even from looking at pictures, 1911s from the SA Pro Shop, Ed Brown or RRA are well past the "fit and finish".
The time and labor put into the one I saw was a $1800 pistol tops, but add the Vickers Tactical logo, Special 'LV' serial number prefix and your up to the asking price;)
I meant Ejector, I cant rememeber the last time I saw a 1911 in that price range with rear serrations that did not serrate the ejector. I expected more attention to detail for that price.
"Attention to detail"?
FYI- The ejector isn't supposed to be serrated on a VT gun. That means LAV did not want it serrated on his guns. NH is building these guns to Larry spec's, so nothing was missed or done incorrectly.
The sad reality is that the NH guns are production pistols with high quality parts. Very little goes into actually building them aside from the assembly. I know some would like to believe that little elves sit around with hand files and scotch brite pads but the truth is they build from a pile of parts and when one doesn't fit right they take it out and try another. As posted, most of the work is being completed by the vendors and the add-ons that make the 10-8 and LAV models only adds up to about $150. All the way around I'd say the NH production models are grossly over priced.
The sad reality is that the NH guns are production pistols with high quality parts. Very little goes into actually building them aside from the assembly. I know some would like to believe that little elves sit around with hand files and scotch brite pads but the truth is they build from a pile of parts and when one doesn't fit right they take it out and try another. As posted, most of the work is being completed by the vendors and the add-ons that make the 10-8 and LAV models only adds up to about $150. All the way around I'd say the NH production models are grossly over priced.
I'd be curious to know what 1911s you think aren't grossly overpriced? An Ed Brown at $2k? A Yost 1* at $1800? A Wilson CQB at $2k? A Les Baer at $1500?
I'd be curious to know what 1911s you think aren't grossly overpriced?
I think a Rock Island Armory 1911 is seriously under priced.
I think a Rock Island Armory 1911 is seriously under priced.
I think they'd be overpriced if they were free.;)
Ball cuts ~ $100
Flush crown - free
Serrated & pinned front sight - standard
Vickers/Yam trigger - not more expensive, but offers fixed overtravel
25 LPI checkering - standard on NH pistols (when I bought mine)
Integral magwell with open front ~ $50 upgrade from a regular Caspian frame
Race-ready MSH w/lanyard loop ~ $50 premium? Not a standard NH part
Integral plunger tube - same price as a regular one
Spare fitted, serrated extractor ~ $75
Serrated slide top - standard
Rear of slide serrated - leaving out the ejector seems to be normal for NH, I can only guess that it's easier to just work with the slide
Carry bevel - The bottom of the slide has a very subtle bevel, a nice touch not standard for NH
Extended mag catch - standard
Vickers reliability package - If the gun is built to numerical specifications outlined by Larry, the value of this could be extremely high. I would be willing to pay a substantial premium for a 1911 guaranteed to be stoppage-free. Interesting how many manufacturers offer precision guarantees, but none offer a reliability guarantee.
bullitt5172
11-29-06, 13:34
:confused:
I must have missed the point to this.
I think what Rob is stating is true. They are going after the crowd that knows the Vickers name and assumes he has put a hand on this gun. He'll never see them or touch them, he just spec'd them out. I would have to agree with Big Bore as well, they are not worth the asking price IMHO. I don't have any of the issues that BB saw on the Vickers with my "cheap" $1800 Wilson. I think that NHC has a good reputation but might be growing a wee bit too fast for them to handle. I expect perfection at the $3000 level. I gotta believe that Ken Hackathorn, Hilton Yam and Mr. Vickers are getting some rather nice incentives from NHC to talk them up so much.
Ball cuts ~ $100
Flush crown - free
Serrated & pinned front sight - standard
Vickers/Yam trigger - not more expensive, but offers fixed overtravel
25 LPI checkering - standard on NH pistols (when I bought mine)
Integral magwell with open front ~ $50 upgrade from a regular Caspian frame
Race-ready MSH w/lanyard loop ~ $50 premium? Not a standard NH part
Integral plunger tube - same price as a regular one
Spare fitted, serrated extractor ~ $75
Serrated slide top - standard
Rear of slide serrated - leaving out the ejector seems to be normal for NH, I can only guess that it's easier to just work with the slide
Carry bevel - The bottom of the slide has a very subtle bevel, a nice touch not standard for NH
Extended mag catch - standard
Vickers reliability package - If the gun is built to numerical specifications outlined by Larry, the value of this could be extremely high. I would be willing to pay a substantial premium for a 1911 guaranteed to be stoppage-free. Interesting how many manufacturers offer precision guarantees, but none offer a reliability guarantee.
DING DING DING! We have a winner. I have stayed out of this thread for various reasons, but it appears that most folks are missing why the Vickers model is more money.
As most of you know, I am building my own 1911. I have stated/hinted at the fact that I have found out a lot of "dirty little secrets" about the 1911 market. The fact remains that a production gun is a production gun (parts slapped together with very little hand work). The difference between the expensive ones and the cheap ones is quality parts used, name brand and not much else.
Those of you that have not had the pleasure to talk to and or know anything about LAV might have missed where the real value is in this NH/Vickers 1911. I think that there are VERY few people that know more about the 1911 than he does and even fewer have his Military background. The man knows his weapons and knows how to use them. So if he has given NH the keys to the palace (his tips, tricks & knowledge) then that makes the pistol worth it in my book.
C4
The sad reality is that the NH guns are production pistols with high quality parts. Very little goes into actually building them aside from the assembly. I know some would like to believe that little elves sit around with hand files and scotch brite pads but the truth is they build from a pile of parts and when one doesn't fit right they take it out and try another. As posted, most of the work is being completed by the vendors and the add-ons that make the 10-8 and LAV models only adds up to about $150. All the way around I'd say the NH production models are grossly over priced.
I would have to agree. I believe most big name companies are over priced for what you get. I have now purchased the parts for two 1911's to be built. I also know the number of hours that will go into polishing/fitting/tunning them. The big boys do not spend the same amount of time or buy the same parts that I did, but will charge the same or more for their 1911's than I do.
In their defense though, they have to have a dealer and Distr. program so they need to build in enough profit to cover that. I am removing the middle man which helps keep cost down.
C4
bullitt5172
11-29-06, 14:15
DING DING DING! We have a winner. I have stayed out of this thread for various reasons, but it appears that most folks are missing why the Vickers model is more money.
As most of you know, I am building my own 1911. I have stated/hinted at the fact that I have found out a lot of "dirty little secrets" about the 1911 market. The fact remains that a production gun is a production gun (parts slapped together with very little hand work). The difference between the expensive ones and the cheap ones is quality parts used, name brand and not much else.
Those of you that have not had the pleasure to talk to and or know anything about LAV might have missed where the real value is in this NH/Vickers 1911. I think that there are VERY few people that know more about the 1911 than he does and even fewer have his Military background. The man knows his weapons and knows how to use them. So if he has given NH the keys to the palace (his tips, tricks & knowledge) then that makes the pistol worth it in my book.
C4
I guess this is where I get lost, the Vickers doesn't seem to be fundamentally any different than a Talon or GRP. The same guys are building it and finishing it, how will Mr. Vickers telling them to use a cast Caspian frame and put a red dot on the safety gonna make it the same as a Vickers built gun?? I would agree he is one of the best but I could ask NHC to add a doodad here and there and call it the Glimpse Tactical and it wouldn't really be any different.
David Thomas
11-29-06, 14:25
Integral plunger tube - same price as a regular one
Who else offers the integral plunger tube on a single stack? I am not aware of anybody else even offering it, much less at the same price as a standard plunger tube. Am I that out of the loop?
Notice I am not saying that this feature alone justifies the price. I will say that the gun is worth the money in my opinion. But what do I know, I think Glocks are a steal and all modern pump shotguns cost more than 3 times their worth.
:mad:
My God I hate Internet forum high-end 1911 threads. They are virtually guaranteed to end up worthless.
No other group considers themselves qualified to make such big & bold statements about gunsmithing, quality of parts, individual manufacturers, etc like 1911 owners. Several of you are so off base it's hideous. This thread looks seriously like a BARF or 1911 forum thread. I swore that was never going to happen when I took the job of Moderator in this forum.
If this keeps up this thread will have it's throat slit, body dismembered, and the remains will be scattered to the four corners of the globe.
I guess this is where I get lost, the Vickers doesn't seem to be fundamentally any different than a Talon or GRP. The same guys are building it and finishing it, how will Mr. Vickers telling them to use a cast Caspian frame and put a red dot on the safety gonna make it the same as a Vickers built gun?? I would agree he is one of the best but I could ask NHC to add a doodad here and there and call it the Glimpse Tactical and it wouldn't really be any different.
I think there is more to the LAV 1911 than meets the eye. No he didn't build it by hand, but told them how they should be setup/configured and parts used.
C4
:mad:
My God I hate Internet forum high-end 1911 threads. They are virtually guaranteed to end up worthless.
No other group considers themselves qualified to make such big & bold statements about gunsmithing, quality of parts, individual manufacturers, etc like 1911 owners. Several of you are so off base it's hideous. This thread looks seriously like a BARF or 1911 forum thread. I swore that was never going to happen when I took the job of Moderator in this forum.
If this keeps up this thread will have it's throat slit, body dismembered, and the remains will be scattered to the four corners of the globe.
Edited by Va_Dinger.
You must be out of your mind to post this.
I'd be curious to know what 1911s you think aren't grossly overpriced? An Ed Brown at $2k? A Yost 1* at $1800? A Wilson CQB at $2k? A Les Baer at $1500?
Yes, all over priced. You get the very best parts available but that is all. The extra $1K built into the cost of the gun (over the parts and labor) is so you can own a name.
How many of you guys have actually seen a Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Springfield custom shop, Yost, ETC get built?
Who has put 5,000+ rounds through any one of them this year?
If you cannot say YES to either of these questions you do not need to be making negative statements about how any of them are built.
If you honestly do not understand why they cost more than a $450 Mil-Spec then your seriously out of your lane in regards to high-end 1911's.
THAT IS RULE #1 ON M4CARBINE.
If you do not have direct 1st hand knowledge of a subject you stay out of it. OR you post a direct link to where you got your information. It had also better not come from my sister's-husbands-aunt- the HSLD mall guard.
If you cannot provide either in this thread I suggest you do some editing. If not, I will be doing for you shortly.
:mad:
My God I hate Internet forum high-end 1911 threads. They are virtually guaranteed to end up worthless.
No other group considers themselves qualified to make such big & bold statements about gunsmithing, quality of parts, individual manufacturers, etc like 1911 owners. Several of you are so off base it's hideous. This thread looks seriously like a BARF or 1911 forum thread. I swore that was never going to happen when I took the job of Moderator in this forum.
If this keeps up this thread will have it's throat slit, body dismembered, and the remains will be scattered to the four corners of the globe.
Have you actually watched EB, WC, or NH build a 1911 in production?
Have you actually watched EB, WC, or NH build a 1911 in production?
No, but I'm not the one making big bold statements about them.
Have YOU personally seen any of them get built? How many of them have you owned? Did you put 10,000 through them each year? What training have you attended? Are you a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith?
Provide proof to back up your statements in this thread or they will be history VERY shortly.
M4carbine is not like BARF, 1911forum, Glocktalk, etc.
We have rules and they will be enforced as long as I'm a mod in this forum.
I am in the market for a "production custom" or whatever you want to call it. Myself and others that are in the same boat find threads like this very informative.
Sure some people make unfounded remarks, but some people who's opinions that I DO respect are chiming in as well. I for one can see past the B.S. and form my own opinion........................
PLEASE DON"T LOCK IT
Who else offers the integral plunger tube on a single stack?
Tis an option on the Caspian frames, FWIW.
http://www.caspianarms.com/RO.html
The intention of my post was to point out that there are tangible upgrades that warrant the higher price of the Vickers model, though not every feature VA_Dinger highlighted costs extra.
Who else offers the integral plunger tube on a single stack? I am not aware of anybody else even offering it, much less at the same price as a standard plunger tube. Am I that out of the loop?
To the best of my knowledge, no one else offers this feature. Caspian Arms lists the retail price of an integral plunger tube on one of their frames as $25. Certainly a good feature. No staking fee.
David Thomas
11-29-06, 15:35
Dr. Mark & Vinh,
I knew Caspian was making the frames for the VT/NH with the integral plunger tube, but did not know you could obtain that option directly from Caspian. I assumed that it was subject to an exclusivity agreement.
I don't want to see any thread get locked or trashed so I'll ask everyone to step back and take a deep breath. There's no need to ruffle feathers over a tool.
1911 owners are very passionate and opinionated so let's stick to technical facts and first hand experience. Thanks.
why do you always get so wound up when these discussions come up, and always proclaim yourself to be the be-all-end-all guru of all things tactical when others either disagree with or question you?
Look, everyone knows that you are a 10-8 and Vickers sycophant (and saying that does not take anything away from either the 10-8 crew or Vickers, incidentally), but why all the hostility anytime anyone questions anything that they (and therefore, you) have to say?
So now you don't like the fact that people are questioning your gurus and are going to excercise your moderator power to lock down any dissenting voices? You're right, this is awefully 1911forum.com-esque.
I will take this one as I get these types of questions a lot. I get a lot of my knowledge from 3 places. Personal training with some of the best instructors in the country, talking with the manufacturers and talking with some of the best shooters in the country.
Paul (dinger) gathers his knowledge like I do from training and discussions with known "guru's". I would not classify LAV as Dingers "guru", but as one of the very top instructors in the country. You will not find a more knowledgeable person on weapons than him.
Most people that I come into contact with, have learned most of what they know about guns, gear and tactics via the internet. This is not the best place to gather such information. Opinions of the NH/VT 1911 SHOULD be based on first hand experience and knowledge of who Vickers is and how is years of combat experience went into that 1911.
C4
bullitt5172
11-29-06, 15:46
No, but I'm not the one making big bold statements about them.
Have YOU personally seen any of them get built? How many of them have you owned? Did you put 10,000 through them each year? What training have you attended? Are you a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith?
Provide proof to back up your statements in this thread or they will be history VERY shortly.
M4carbine is not like BARF, 1911forum, Glocktalk, etc.
We have rules and they will be enforced as long as I'm a mod in this forum.
Wow, we are questioning the extra cost of the Vickers not the entire semi-custom line??? I am EXTREMELY happy with my Wilson and the Nighthawk I had prior to that. I was not ripping on the NHC Vickers but some here think it is the end all 1911. It's not, it's a fancy GRP but I don't believe that it sees any more "care" than any other 1911 in their line. They will even tell you there isn't any difference in the "core" 1911 they produce, the difference is options like checkering, sights, magwells etc.
I have owned a 1911 from every high end manufacturer and they are all excellent. I don't see the Vickers being any better from a function stand point.
Before you get on me, I have a Vickers on order. I want one because it looks good and will function like all other NHC 1911's. I like the integral magwell, the trigger, ball cuts ETC. I could care less that Larry told them to make it that way.
This thread is nothing like what you see on ARFcom or 1911forum, these posts are honest opinions and comments. No one here is being rude or comming down on anyone. $3000 is a lot and you should be able to voice your opinion about what you send it on.
Lastly, I went back and forth with Grant about his 1911 in another post. I began to see what he was talking about and I plan to check his out when they are available.
So--do you have to send this off and spend another 1k to make it run?
bullitt5172
11-29-06, 15:50
So--do you have to send this off and spend another 1k to make it run?
My experience with WC, NHC, Les Baer and SA's Pro have lead me to believe they are very reliable out of the box. No work needed ;)
So--do you have to send this off and spend another 1k to make it run?
I don't care who you are, this is funny! :D
C4
Wow, we are questioning the extra cost of the Vickers not the entire semi-custom line??? I am EXTREMELY happy with my Wilson and the Nighthawk I had prior to that. I was not ripping on the NHC Vickers but some here think it is the end all 1911. It's not, it's a fancy GRP but I don't believe that it sees any more "care" than any other 1911 in their line. They will even tell you there isn't any difference in the "core" 1911 they produce, the difference is options like checkering, sights, magwells etc.
I have owned a 1911 from every high end manufacturer and they are all excellent. I don't see the Vickers being any better from a function stand point.
Before you get on me, I have a Vickers on order. I want one because it looks good and will function like all other NHC 1911's. I like the integral magwell, the trigger, ball cuts ETC. I could care less that Larry told them to make it that way.
This thread is nothing like what you see on ARFcom or 1911forum, these posts are honest opinions and comments. No one here is being rude or comming down on anyone. $3000 is a lot and you should be able to voice your opinion about what you send it on.
Lastly, I went back and forth with Grant about his 1911 in another post. I began to see what he was talking about and I plan to check his out when they are available.
I see my that my Jedi mind trick as worked on you. OBI 1: "These are not the 1911's you are looking for." :D
C4
I'll say my peace and leave it to the fans of these.
This is my opinion, I guess I'm entitled to it. I just don't understand the expense on these "high end" guns, the expense to keep them working.
I like to quote a friend that was/is into these "they're great guns as long as they work" "You just have to get them running right"
I just scratch my head and wonder, what's the point?
Say what you like, it's your money and opinion. I'm a out of the box and if you have to replace a part, it's dropped in type.
Mark
I'll say my peace and leave it to the fans of these.
This is my opinion, I guess I'm entitled to it. I just don't understand the expense on these "high end" guns, the expense to keep them working.
I like to quote a friend that was/is into these "they're great guns as long as they work" "You just have to get them running right"
I just scratch my head and wonder, what's the point?
Say what you like, it's your money and opinion. I'm a out of the box and if you have to replace a part, it's dropped in type.
Mark
Hello Mark.
Being that you’re a hard-core Glock guy these odd little fiascos are out of your realm of expertise. You will never understand it.
Just consider yourself lucky. :D
The intention of my post was to point out that there are tangible upgrades that warrant the higher price of the Vickers model, though not every feature VA_Dinger highlighted costs extra.
Thank you Vihn, your input is always appreciated.
PLEASE DON"T LOCK IT
No thread (Other than SPAM) is going to get locked in this forum.
This thread just was not going to continue in the same direction it was headed.
Nothing personal, I've spent money on these things, I know. I've moved on---------
I'll say my peace and leave it to the fans of these.
This is my opinion, I guess I'm entitled to it. I just don't understand the expense on these "high end" guns, the expense to keep them working.
I like to quote a friend that was/is into these "they're great guns as long as they work" "You just have to get them running right"
I just scratch my head and wonder, what's the point?
Say what you like, it's your money and opinion. I'm a out of the box and if you have to replace a part, it's dropped in type.
Mark
1911's are a purist's weapon. They are flaky and require regular maintenance. To quote a famous shooter, if you treat your gun like you treat your lawn mower, get a Glock. :D
People that buy 1911's are looking for the most accurate, best handling, fastest HG made. The 1911 has no equal in these catagories.
C4
bullitt5172
11-29-06, 17:18
1911's are a purist's weapon. They are flaky and require regular maintenance. To quote a famous shooter, if you treat your gun like you treat your lawn mower, get a Glock. :D
People that buy 1911's are looking for the most accurate, best handling, fastest HG made. The 1911 has no equal in these catagories.
C4
AMEN (and I'm not even religous :D )
I see that most reliable wasn't there:rolleyes:
I see that most reliable wasn't there:rolleyes:
Nope as 1911's are not the most reliable. Neither are AR's, but you shoot those as well. ;)
C4
No, but I'm not the one making big bold statements about them.
Have YOU personally seen any of them get built? How many of them have you owned? Did you put 10,000 through them each year? What training have you attended? Are you a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith?
Provide proof to back up your statements in this thread or they will be history VERY shortly.
M4carbine is not like BARF, 1911forum, Glocktalk, etc.
We have rules and they will be enforced as long as I'm a mod in this forum.
No one is making a bold statement. Unless the tag says "custom made" it is not custom made. You can bank on parts that drop right in with minimal hand fitting.
I am not a 1911 gunsmith, but then again I'm not a Ferrari mechanic either, but I still know the difference between a hand fit part and a production part. All the rest of your questions really make no difference and serve only as a distraction from the rest of the discussion.
I really think you are taking this just a bit to serious.
No, but I'm not the one making big bold statements about them.
Have YOU personally seen any of them get built? How many of them have you owned? Did you put 10,000 through them each year? What training have you attended? Are you a qualified 1911 familiar gunsmith?
Provide proof to back up your statements in this thread or they will be history VERY shortly.
M4carbine is not like BARF, 1911forum, Glocktalk, etc.
We have rules and they will be enforced as long as I'm a mod in this forum.
You are breaking your own rules- at least Gentlemen's rules regarding the referral of AR15.com as BARF.
Settle down a little.
Some of the things you list that make this so special are options that are available directly from Caspian like the integral plunger tube, ball end mill (so I've heard, haven't checked myself- never interested,) the integral mag well, and the carry package.
Also, there's a smith that will do flush a crown exactly that way or any other way I wish for very little money and you do respect this person- he's not some schmuck down the street.
My main complaint is that stupid, yes stupid, ready to fire dot that you can clearly see at all angles but perfectly perpendicular to the side of the firearm. It's a neat idea but if it's not something that really works 100% it shouldn't have been included, my personal opinion.
I love the MSH with integral lanyard loop but I know of two places I've seen those for around $60. Very nice looking to me and I'd like one personally.
No one is making a bold statement. Unless the tag says "custom made" it is not custom made. You can bank on parts that drop right in with minimal hand fitting.
I am not a 1911 gunsmith, but then again I'm not a Ferrari mechanic either, but I still know the difference between a hand fit part and a production part. All the rest of your questions really make no difference and serve only as a distraction from the rest of the discussion.
I really think you are taking this just a bit to serious.
Let me get this straight.
You feel it makes no difference if a member has never owned, handled, God forbid shot, or even been within a hundred miles of the weapon being discussed? Never attended a single day of formal training, ETC. He should just be allowed to dominate any thread he chooses and pass along information based on nothing more than thin air & Internet forum bravado?
Just the mere fact that you own or have owned a 1911 does NOT make you qualified to seriously question Tier 1 experienced individuals, 1911 experts & professional gunsmiths, various manufacturers, or to make very bold statements about their production techniques & pricing.
This goes against everything M4C is based on and violates rule #1 of posting on this forum.
Everybody has the right to an opinion; each of us just has to be smart enough to stay in our own lanes.
Time will tell.
Do I think semi-custom & custom 1911's are "Over-Priced"?
Hell yes, but they are so popular at the moment that is not going to change for some time.
Jason Burton
11-29-06, 18:21
I'd be curious to know what 1911s you think aren't grossly overpriced? An Ed Brown at $2k? A Yost 1* at $1800? A Wilson CQB at $2k? A Les Baer at $1500?
Yes, all over priced. You get the very best parts available but that is all. The extra $1K built into the cost of the gun (over the parts and labor) is so you can own a name.
I don’t have much to add with regards to the “value” of any of the endorsed semi-custom guns mentioned in this thread but I would like to clear one thing up.
At $1800, or whatever the final bill of each individual build may be, we at Yost-Bonitz are not simply applying the best parts and adding $1000 to the price of the base gun so the customer may own a name. All of our guns are built one at a time with absolutely no pre-fit parts. Every grip-safety installation, every thumb safety that is fit, every trigger job that is done, every barrel and bushing, and so on down the line are all done by hand, one at a time, and by one builder.
Have you any further doubts please feel free to stop by the shop and watch us actually build pistols, not assemble and stamp a name on them.
Edited by Dinger
FYI - If that's all you can add to this conversation don't bother.
I don’t have much to add with regards to the “value” of any of the endorsed semi-custom guns mentioned in this thread but I would like to clear one thing up.
At $1800, or whatever the final bill of each individual build may be, we at Yost-Bonitz are not simply applying the best parts and adding $1000 to the price of the base gun so the customer may own a name. All of our guns are built one at a time with absolutely no pre-fit parts. Every grip-safety installation, every thumb safety that is fit, every trigger job that is done, every barrel and bushing, and so on down the line are all done by hand, one at a time, and by one builder.
Have you any further doubts please feel free to stop by the shop and watch us actually build pistols, not assemble and stamp a name on them.
Thanks Jason, nice of you to stop in and throw a little reality into this thread.
I'm sure if we had a Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, ETC employee as a member they would be equally upset at the mere suggestion that their pistols are merely "Assembled".
Nope as 1911's are not the most reliable. Neither are AR's, but you shoot those as well.
I can count on my hand the malfunctions I've had with my AR's-and I shoot them.
Like I said before, it's your money and right to own what you want. Not a wise choice in my opinion.
I'm sure someone has, but, I've yet to see any g model .45 make it through a day on a range, a serious day on the range.
We can all disagree on what's best, that's relative anyhow. For what I use a pistol for, I'll take my Glock any day, anywhere. It works, always has and I can hit what I need to. What works for me, may not work for you. Or what doesn't work for me, may not work for you.
I see it like this. I grew up in the north with snow, etc. If you could afford it, you had your favorite muscle car. But that same person had a work truck or car that they used for work and driving in the weather.
:cool:
Nice Dinger. I was simply stating what I read in the rules. It's quite possible you caused a few people concern and I thought maybe they were worth repeating.
I'm all ears now. Ready to hear everything important you have to say.
I can count on my hand the malfunctions I've had with my AR's-and I shoot them.
Like I said before, it's your money and right to own what you want. Not a wise choice in my opinion.
I'm sure someone has, but, I've yet to see any g model .45 make it through a day on a range, a serious day on the range.
We can all disagree on what's best, that's relative anyhow. For what I use a pistol for, I'll take my Glock any day, anywhere. It works, always has and I can hit what I need to. What works for me, may not work for you. Or what doesn't work for me, may not work for you.
I see it like this. I grew up in the north with snow, etc. If you could afford it, you had your favorite muscle car. But that same person had a work truck or car that they used for work and driving in the weather.
:cool:
I have had my WC for several years and taken it to about 4 classes. It has always performed. My G19 has just as many stoppages as my 1911 so go figure.
My AR's perform as well, but the system is KNOWN to be picky about mags, ammo, springs, etc, etc.
C4
I have had my WC for several years and taken it to about 4 classes. It has always performed. My G19 has just as many stoppages as my 1911 so go figure.
My AR's perform as well, but the system is KNOWN to be picky about mags, ammo, springs, etc, etc.
C4
You're limp wristing them!:eek:
QuietShootr
11-29-06, 19:31
I can count on my hand the malfunctions I've had with my AR's-and I shoot them.
Like I said before, it's your money and right to own what you want. Not a wise choice in my opinion.
I'm sure someone has, but, I've yet to see any g model .45 make it through a day on a range, a serious day on the range.
:cool:
How many rounds have to be fired for it to be 'serious'? I've done classes with a thousand rounds in a day with my CQB with no malfunctions, and I expect my new Nighthawk to do the same or I'll be sending it in for service.
Like I said, "I'm sure someone has" I would say at least 4-500.
I think we could all agree on the fact that as a whole, a g model .45 requires more maintenance overall to work and continue to work.
QuietShootr
11-29-06, 19:53
Like I said, "I'm sure someone has" I would say at least 4-500.
I think we could all agree on the fact that as a whole, a g model .45 requires more maintenance overall to work and continue to work.
Certainly it does. But I (and others, clearly) think that it rewards you with its superior shootability.
Would I give Shaneequa the Affirmative Action cop a 1911? Hell no.
Certainly it does. But I (and others, clearly) think that it rewards you with its superior shootability.
Would I give Shaneequa the Affirmative Action cop a 1911? Hell no.
You need to be more understanding and diverse there mister!
Hey, in the end, it boils down to what you like and feel comfotable with.
We're good;)
I'll chime in here. I'm a Sig guy, not a 1911 fan but I have spent some time with a few. 1911's are great pistols, if they run 100%. I think it's sad that someone has to spend that kind of money on a sidearm for it to run correctly, granted not all cheaper models are POS and not all of the "high end" guns run 100%.
The 1911 is a pistol that can be very accurate and very fast in the right hands. I've personally seen enough malfunctions with them that it has turned me off of 1911's all together. Lots of people spend a lot of money to get their 1911 running, whether it's for fun or serious use. I personaly well not fork out that kind of dough for a pistol that is not guaranteed to be 100% reliable. I'm perfectly happy with my P226 that shoots that "puny" 9mm round. It's very accurate, 100% reliable and I can hit what i'm aiming at with it. That's all that matters to me. I get a kick out of shooting with the guys with custom 1911's, they get pretty humbled when I outshoot them with my stock P226.
I'll touch on the "dropping names" on products. It's becoming the new thing to do. Since the GWOT, SOF have been in the spotlight and has gained popularity. It's not only the firearms industry that is taking advantage of that, the Military is also. The Military's #1 recruitment tool is SOF (look at the commercials). Every other kid goes into the service thinking he's going to be a snakeeater. To think that a firearms co. isn't charging a premium for a special name is ridiculous. Most ARE doing it. Look at Sig with their "Navy" and "Blackwater" models, Kimber with the "Det-1", the NH "Vickers". I personaly don't have experience with the Vickers gun so I can't comment on the reliability or "extra's" that it comes with. Most of these guns DO have that particular group or persons input, like the Sig Navy has the "phosphate" finish and anchor. I can guarantee though, that some of what you are paying is for the name.
What it boils down to, is that it's your money and you can spend it the way you want to. If a particular model has the features you want/need, and you can afford it, then buy it.
Let me get this straight.
You feel it makes no difference if a member has never owned, handled, God forbid shot, or even been within a hundred miles of the weapon being discussed? Never attended a single day of formal training, ETC. He should just be allowed to dominate any thread he chooses and pass along information based on nothing more than thin air & Internet forum bravado?
Just the mere fact that you own or have owned a 1911 does NOT make you qualified to seriously question Tier 1 experienced individuals, 1911 experts & professional gunsmiths, various manufacturers, or to make very bold statements about their production techniques & pricing.
This goes against everything M4C is based on and violates rule #1 of posting on this forum.
Everybody has the right to an opinion; each of us just has to be smart enough to stay in our own lanes.
Time will tell.
Do I think semi-custom & custom 1911's are "Over-Priced"?
Hell yes, but they are so popular at the moment that is not going to change for some time.
Look, you have no idea where I'm coming from nor have I told you. I don't feel especially compelled to share my experience either given the venue. You can make all the assumptions you want but that is all they will be...assumptions.
I'll admit that I should not have included YOBO (didn't really mean to either since they are definitely a custom) and was speaking to the three manufacturers that make high end production models. I'll stand behind my statement that if you buy an off the shelf EB, WC, or NH you are getting an assembly line gun. Hell, NH sure hasn't been shy about sharing what goes on at WC (in phone conversations). Just look at what WC and EB do; they make retail parts. You'd be a fool to think they aren't just cherry picking their own high quality production parts...and it shows in the product they sell. Obviously there are custom models available but that isn't what we are talking about.
There have been a lot of discussions surrounding EB, WB, and NH production guns being full of tool marks and ill fitting parts. The super special custom features NH is offering on the LAV and 10-8 models are available right off the Caspian web site which is where NH admittedly buys their frames and slides.
Do the above make high quality pistols? Absolutely. Are they worth what they charge? Absolutely not. (The YOBO *1 absolutely is)
Also, are we set on what is or is not the forum rules? Or do we need to discuss that further in another thread?
I'm going to state this one last time for those of us who seem determined to undermine the integrity of this forum with Internet forum gossip & blatant hearsay.
"Posting Suggestions
In order to maintain a site that is an effective database of good information, it is best to post information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you are repeating information that you have been told or have read from another poster, it is best to disclose that in the opening of the post."
https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
I have been accused in two PM’s of being “Heavy Handed” in this thread. I obviously do not agree. I take the above “Posting Suggestion” very seriously because lack of it & moderator attention has made several other forums a joke. You are far more likely to get the wrong answer or bad information when reading them or God forbid asking a question. I do not want that to happen to M4carbine.net. If it does, it won’t be because of the forums I moderate.
It’s really rather simple.
Post 1st hand knowledge or information that is verifiable with a provided link. We do not want hearsay & Internet gossip that you read on another forum, heard at the gunshop or range. We at M4carbine cannot verify that it did not come from some Industry troll or moron who has not shot fifty rounds in his life. Company’s reputations should not be tarnished by such information.
Isn’t that simple? Isn’t that why you come to M4carbine.net?
There's no misinformation here. THAT'S what the rule or suggestion is for- to prevent misinformation. Maybe Grant should change the wording of that rule to make it more abidable and less prone to nit-picking.
ETA: Actually I come here to read opinions more than anything. I am thankful to the people that can recommend Kimber or SW to me because they like theirs. They do not need to have handled or fired all of the pistols I have considered buying to make their opinion matter.
I bought a SW. It had the same minor cosmetic issues that most SWs have. The FACT that most SWs have those didn't help one way or the other. It was still a gamble that it would or not. But, what I appreciate are people's opinions on what I should or shouldn't do next perhaps.
Without the opinions the world would be really dull...
I'm going to state this one last time for those of us who seem determined to undermine the integrity of this forum with Internet forum gossip & blatant hearsay.
Posting Suggestions
In order to maintain a site that is an effective database of good information, it is best to post information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you are repeating information that you have been told or have read from another poster, it is best to disclose that in the opening of the post.
https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
I have been accused in two PM’s of being “Heavy Handed” in this thread. I obviously do not agree. I take the above “Posting Suggestion” very seriously because lack of it & moderator attention has made several other forums a joke. You are far more likely to get the wrong answer or bad information when reading them or God forbid asking a question. I do not want that to happen to M4carbine.net. If it does, it won’t be because of the forums I moderate.
It’s really rather simple.
Post 1st hand knowledge or information that is verifiable with a provided link. We do not want hearsay & Internet gossip that you read on another forum, heard at the gunshop or range. We at M4carbine cannot verify that it did not come from some Industry troll or moron who has not shot fifty rounds in his life. Company’s reputations should not be tarnished by such information.
Isn’t that simple? Isn’t that why you come to M4carbine.net?
Since you have such a problem with what has been said, how about you post why the information is incorrect rather than threatening to edit or summarily calling out someone you do not know? The threats are a major turn off regardless of your intention.
There's no misinformation here. THAT'S what the rule or suggestion is for- to prevent misinformation. Maybe Grant should change the wording of that rule to make it more abidable and less prone to nit-picking.
ETA: Actually I come here to read opinions more than anything. I am thankful to the people that can recommend Kimber or SW to me because they like theirs. They do not need to have handled or fired all of the pistols I have considered buying to make their opinion matter.
I bought a SW. It had the same minor cosmetic issues that most SWs have. The FACT that most SWs have those didn't help one way or the other. It was still a gamble that it would or not. But, what I appreciate are people's opinions on what I should or shouldn't do next perhaps.
Without the opinions the world would be really dull...
Nobody will be suppressing anybody’s opinion. Every member has the right to post.
That's also very different from what I'm warning people about.
If your Kimber, Springfield, Yost, ETC, ETC. doesn't run or runs great please post it. Or state were you got such information. That's entirely different from posting "All XXX brand 1911's are built in a dumpster by illegal aliens" having absolutely zero 1st hand knowledge of how they are built and cannot prove a word you just posted.
See the difference?
baffle Stack
11-29-06, 22:42
Certainly it does. But I (and others, clearly) think that it rewards you with its superior shootability.
Would I give Shaneequa the Affirmative Action cop a 1911? Hell no.
I don't care how PC you are, that is damn funny:D
QUOTE=VA_Dinger]:)
Steve the salesman.
Talks crap about "1911 People" in one thread and tries to sell $2400 RRA's in another.
I wish you had taken a photo. I would have liked to see a few photos of a VT/NH were NH "Forgot" to serrate the extractor. I assume "Ejector" was a typo because it isn't supposed to be serrated.
This is the ass end of a VT/NH:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/VICKERS_8.jpg
IMHO, I prefer full serrations on the back of the slide and frame to include ejector and extractor.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p4a48136a818a5f418265c2632f281342/ebd47897.jpg
Seems to me, Grants 1911 project will give us all REAL insight.
Can Grant provide a superior product at a lower price?
This should answer most of the questions posted in this thread!
P.S.
Who knows? If it works out mebbe Grant could offer a LAV model.
What % would Larry want?
10%?
20%
Would be kinda funny seeing a Vickers model being built by a crew that does not know Larry from Santa Claus.
You're limp wristing them!:eek:
:D
C4
Seems to me, Grants 1911 project will give us all REAL insight.
Can Grant provide a superior product at a lower price?
This should answer most of the questions posted in this thread!
He will do his best to produce a reliable 1911 with tons of fit/finish work and use the very best parts available (or die trying). :D
C4
P.S.
Who knows? If it works out mebbe Grant could offer a LAV model.
What % would Larry want?
10%?
20%
Would be kinda funny seeing a Vickers model being built by a crew that does not know Larry from Santa Claus.
I have already gathered LAV's input on my 1911. I will also be sending one off for him to give me an honest feedback.
C4
The Shaneequa thing is a hoot!
Here is my take, from my personal experience. My 1911 is a Colt 1991A1 5" purchased in 1998 for around $550. I swapped the trigger for a short USGI trigger and the MSH for a SA MSH w/ a lanyard loop. That's it. After firing several thousand rounds (3-3.5) I got a stovepipe. I replaced the recoil spring. The other 4-5 malfunctions were from a crappy W-R 8 rd magazine. It has the Jeff Cooper Three - good sights, a good trigger and absolute reliability (with periodic maintenance and good mags).
It's not that I have anything against these high end guns. But if I had 3K$ I would buy an AR, a Glock, holsters slings etc and a bunch of ammo. I love 1911's, but it is has become an industry. Right now I have a Corporal who doesn't have a pot to piss in running off to buya NH 1911. It's his money, but still... A lot of these guys see all the sexy photos on the cover of Surefire Presents XYZ then run out and dump a bunch of money on the latest super tactical M4 or 1911.
The other thing is that if you spend that much cash on something, it should be exactly what you want and it should work as close to 100% as is humanly possible. Why people dump that much cash and expect less than that is beyond me.
Derek_Connor
11-30-06, 15:51
The Shaneequa thing is a hoot!
Here is my take, from my personal experience. My 1911 is a Colt 1991A1 5" purchased in 1998 for around $550. I swapped the trigger for a short USGI trigger and the MSH for a SA MSH w/ a lanyard loop. That's it. After firing several thousand rounds (3-3.5) I got a stovepipe. I replaced the recoil spring. The other 4-5 malfunctions were from a crappy W-R 8 rd magazine. It has the Jeff Cooper Three - good sights, a good trigger and absolute reliability (with periodic maintenance and good mags).
It's not that I have anything against these high end guns. But if I had 3K$ I would buy an AR, a Glock, holsters slings etc and a bunch of ammo. I love 1911's, but it is has become an industry. Right now I have a Corporal who doesn't have a pot to piss in running off to buya NH 1911. It's his money, but still... A lot of these guys see all the sexy photos on the cover of Surefire Presents XYZ then run out and dump a bunch of money on the latest super tactical M4 or 1911.
The other thing is that if you spend that much cash on something, it should be exactly what you want and it should work as close to 100% as is humanly possible. Why people dump that much cash and expect less than that is beyond me.
Striker - you make excellent points, especially the underlined sections. One thing people need to remember with 1911s, is that no matter how much $$$ you spend put into them, no matter who made them, and no matter how long you waited, they are still susceptible to the shortcommings of all box-fed weapons. Shitty mags, shitty ammo, and shitty end-users ;)
I have had some of the big name 1911s, and still have most of them. I have weeded through a couple of brands and realized what I like. And what I like, isn't offered through springfield, kimber, or ed brown. What I like is such a plethora of tiny little things that I have to automatically default to a gunsmith of reputable character and 2x as much skill to get me where I would like to be.
Does that mean I have bought into the craze? Not sure, anyways, my 2nd pistol was a 1911, and I have been attached to one since.
Have I had malfunctions? Yes, have I been someone displeased with the end product? yes - but I dont think anymore then the average when you take into consideration the communcation disconnect that happens when one person tries to convery their ideas to another over the phone, through email, however it happens. There will be shortcomings. And maybe where this extra $$$$ comes in with these 1911 makers and gunsmiths is for a little bit more solidarity? A little bit more confidence that they will understand the end-users ultimate goal?
These are just my educated guesses, and more rambling than anything.
Nobody will be suppressing anybody’s opinion. Every member has the right to post.
That's also very different from what I'm warning people about.
If your Kimber, Springfield, Yost, ETC, ETC. doesn't run or runs great please post it. Or state were you got such information. That's entirely different from posting "All XXX brand 1911's are built in a dumpster by illegal aliens" having absolutely zero 1st hand knowledge of how they are built and cannot prove a word you just posted.
See the difference?
I see the difference but I also don't see the latter here either.
It does not matter to me what people think the pistol is worth or if they think I am an idiot for paying what I paid for it. I bought it, I shoot it and I like it. 500 rounds last Sat alone pretty much non stop without a single issue. Can I get that performance out of a cheaper 1911? Probably. Did I get it from the NH? Certainly.
Why is my computer doing this!!!
It does not matter to me what people think the pistol is worth or if they think I am an idiot for paying what I paid for it. I bought it, I shoot it and I like it. 500 rounds last Sat alone pretty much non stop without a single issue. Can I get that performance out of a cheaper 1911? Probably. Did I get it from the NH? Certainly.
Hello Josh.
I look forward to seeing that baby in person. I think you got the very first VT/NH that I noticed available.
Hello Josh.
I look forward to seeing that baby in person. I think you got the very first VT/NH that I noticed available.
Whats new pal?
I can say with certainty that the one I have has a lower serial number than the one LV had on his website. :D
Whats new pal?
I can say with certainty that the one I have has a lower serial number than the one LV had on his website. :D
Sweet.
Photos?
Derek and others,
Thanks! Please don't misunderstand - I think I got really lucky with my Colt and, all things being equal, an $1800 gun will probably outperform a $500 gun.
Another thing is that some people want their gun to be a work of art - like the Yost Bonitz pistols. I try to be performance oriented as far as specs go - what do I want this pistol to DO, as opposed to how I want it to look. (They are not mutually exclusive, understood).
A few years back I decided I wanted to turn my .45 into a MEU(SOC) pistol. I priced all the parts and work yadda yadda. Then I thought:
I'm not mounting a light - I don't need forward cocking serrations.
I'm not doing in extremis hostage rescue - I don't need the match barrel and bushing.
I already have skateboard tape - I don't need the Pachmayrs.
The Colt sights are plenty big - I don't need Novaks or Millet repros.
I don't get hammer bite - the spur hammer is fine.
And so on. I just need reliability. Early in my career as a gun nut, I could parrot back to you all the accessories a 1911 MUST have. Now I try to stay with the whole "mission dictates equipment" thing.
I understand that there is another level of shooting where these doohickeys actually make a difference. How many gun owners (and buyers) are at that level - I'm not. Maybe when I get into reloading. Just my .2.
personally id love to have one...
as far as experience
lets see
to my memory...
ive owned:
1 RIA
5 Kimbers
8 Springfields
11 Colts
1 Neil Keller Kustom Ballistics Colt
2 Les Baers
2 Ed Browns
1 RRA
2 Yost Bonitz
1 Springfield Full Custom Job
1 Sig GSR
3 Smith and Wessons (PD, 5", Gunsite)
I know I am missing some in there, but thats what I remember right now...
currently I own
the Springfield Full Custom Job
Rock River Arms pro carry 5"
Ed Brown Kobra Carry
Yost Bonitz 1*
Ive never had a FTF with any of those guns...(havent gotten to shoot the yobo yet)
for my 2 cents, you get what you pay for...
the thing I love about the 1911 is it makes me a better shooter...im a fair pistol shot, I dont compete, but i can hold my own...
a good 1911 makes an average shooter good, and a good shooter great...
no other handgun ive fired and owned (and please dont ask me to list them, think of every major manufacturer, in just about every caliber,and every model) has done that...
as far as the semi custom versus full custom? i think there are advantages to both...
my RRA and Ed Brown for example started out as a block of steel and were built to fit each other from the beginning...sure some mass production parts were put in them...but they are extremely high quality
my yost bonitz started as a springfield WWII mil spec....and although the frame is probably all thats left thats original, the springfield frame was not built to the same specs as the ed brown...im sure though that the fellas at yobo put way more individual detail into building my gun though...
so its 6 of one, half dozen of the other...
for my part, owning both is fair....you ask me to choose between my ed brown and yobo? i choose both...
i personally cant spend 3k on a gun financially...i have had to pretty much sacrfice and forego owning really any other guns to maintain my meager 1911 collection....there are certainly extra features on the LVNH that set it apart from my rock river pro carry 5"...but I cant afford them right now...do i think, in my hands, both guns likely perform the same? sure...but that doesnt mean the LVT isnt worth it...
Matt Edwards
12-06-06, 20:38
I know I'm jumping into an old thread, but I felt compelled to add my two cents.
In my experiance you get what you pay for with weapons more then any other product. I noticed clear progress in my shooting simply by swithching from a good Kimber 1 to a higher end 1911. Even using all the same TTPs, I was able to improve my speed and weapons handaling just by "taking the plunge." The gun was just easier to shoot well for a bunch of different reasons. What I'm trying to say is that this pistol has certin advantages that other "high end" 1911s may not. The gun was spec'ed by a guy who probably has more experiance with a 1911 as a combat pistol, and as a trainer 1911 toteing GIs then almost any one on the planet. A buddy of mine bought one after I helped " talk" him into it. He has no regrets and I'm jeleouse. IMO, my CQBs were a marked improvement in accuracy and handaling over my K1s, but this gun wins the pissing contest.
I would say if you don't like this particular gun or don't think it is worth the money...well...don't get one.
If, say, you are a guy who demands the best equipment, you know the difference, and perform at a level where you will be able to take advantage of a fighting tool like the NH/VT...get two!
Matt
The latest issue of SWAT magazine has a review of the Vickers gun - it seems that it had some problems, mainly the extractor was not tuned properly.
The latest issue of SWAT magazine has a review of the Vickers gun - it seems that it had some problems, mainly the extractor was not tuned properly.
That's unfortunate. To pay out for thes things and then to have problems is just crazy. It's one thing for major manufactureres to cut QC and push out a lemon every so often, but when you are paying that type of premium, there should be no exuse for poor QC.
Matt Edwards
12-17-06, 14:23
I think some of the issues with these guns are that they are "new" and that the company is relitivly new. It is not a design flaw rather, perhaps an exacution flaw. My buddies gun IS having some issues. 4 of his 8 ACT mags have cracks already. He changed over to 47Ds and is still having some issues.
I hope my first accesment was not...premature. With any luck they may just have some bugs to work out.
It seems to me that building a reliable 1911 no matter what extras are added to improve ergonomics are what makes or breaks a custom 1911. There are many smiths out there who can add parts to the platform but not that many that can actually build a 1911 with the reliability that we strive for in either duty or serious CCW use. I don't see where bringing out a 5" gun with different components and cosmetics should effect the end result; which is a 100% reliable piece. No matter who puts their name on it, if it doesn't work, whats the point.
If I paid $2800 for a 1911 I would expect that gun to be wrung out enough before I got it that I wouldn't have to send it back to make it work. I have a 5" Colt smithed by Chuck Rogers which has six thousand rounds thru it and it has never faltered even after not cleaning it for 500-600 rds during two days of a three day class.
IMHO
I don't see where bringing out a 5" gun with different components and cosmetics should effect the end result; which is a 100% reliable piece. No matter who puts their name on it, if it doesn't work, whats the point. If I paid $2800 for a 1911 I would expect that gun to be wrung out enough before I got it that I wouldn't have to send it back to make it work.
IMHO
Exactly.
Be careful in putting all your eggs in one basket.
ONE magazine article does not make or break a weapon.
Nighthawk has a solid reputation for building reliable guns, so one author’s experience with a particular model will never sway me one way or the other.
Be careful in putting all your eggs in one basket.
ONE magazine article does not make or break a weapon.
Nighthawk has a solid reputation for building reliable guns, so one author’s experience with a particular model will never sway me one way or the other.
I would agree if it were an out of the box SA or Kimber, but when you plunk down nearly 3G's for a weapon, it needs to run. Perfectly. If the author's test sample didn't run, something is wrong. It may be the statistical outlier but when you pay that much, QC needs to be perfect. This isn't a case of a internal flaw where a component broke, it's a improperly tuned extractor. That's the reason you pay top dollar to top smiths, to get perefctly tuned extractors. JMHO.
So how about this weather? :D
So how about this weather? :D
Way too warm. DFeels more like Easter than Christmas.
I would agree if it were an out of the box SA or Kimber, but when you plunk down nearly 3G's for a weapon, it needs to run. Perfectly. If the author's test sample didn't run, something is wrong. It may be the statistical outlier but when you pay that much, QC needs to be perfect. This isn't a case of a internal flaw where a component broke, it's a improperly tuned extractor. That's the reason you pay top dollar to top smiths, to get perefctly tuned extractors. JMHO.
I think the NHC Vickers is a great gun. If you pay a gunsmith to make you a gun exactly like it, it's gonna cost as much or more. If you're into 1911's, you have to pay to play. Anyone that says "my Charles Daly Commander/Kimber external extractor Series II/SW Scandium 1911 has 13,000 rounds without so much as a failure" is a damned liar. As is anyone who says I shoot my M4 15,000 rounds a year and can count the malfunctions on one hand. Me too, usually in multiples of 100. That being said...
1. Hell yes, for 3K my extractor had better be tuned. That is rookie stuff and I expect better out of a higher ($1100 +) gun. I'd be really mad if it was my gun
2. Dude, make sure the gun going to a major gun magazine is in your top 1% of production samples. Don't send one out half cocked and make a fool of yourselves.
3. It's no secret ACT/Novak/Nighthawk mags are weak garbage. Why they didn't go with something better I don't understand. I prefer Wilson #47Ds, but I guess it's a no-brainer Nighthawk couldn't do that.:D
bullitt5172
12-18-06, 09:46
I think the NHC Vickers is a great gun. If you pay a gunsmith to make you a gun exactly like it, it's gonna cost as much or more. If you're into 1911's, you have to pay to play. Anyone that says "my Charles Daly Commander/Kimber external extractor Series II/SW Scandium 1911 has 13,000 rounds without so much as a failure" is a damned liar. As is anyone who says I shoot my M4 15,000 rounds a year and can count the malfunctions on one hand. Me too, usually in multiples of 100. That being said...
1. Hell yes, for 3K my extractor had better be tuned. That is rookie stuff and I expect better out of a higher ($1100 +) gun. I'd be really mad if it was my gun
2. Dude, make sure the gun going to a major gun magazine is in your top 1% of production samples. Don't send one out half cocked and make a fool of yourselves.
3. It's no secret ACT/Novak/Nighthawk mags are weak garbage. Why they didn't go with something better I don't understand. I prefer Wilson #47Ds, but I guess it's a no-brainer Nighthawk couldn't do that.:D
Older production Novak mags cracked and the Wilson mags spread at the feedlips, pick your poison :)
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOTHING BUT MY TWO CENTS, MY OPINION.
This is why I won't spend that kind of coin on a "production custom" 1911. I think 1911's are fun as hell to shoot. The ergonomics are sweeter than anything else out there and the same goes for the wonderful trigger.
That being said, I would never ever think of carrying one of the "production customs" into any type of hostile situation. I'll never get rid of my 1911, but if I wanted a combat ready pistol out of the box, it would probably be made out of plastic, go bang every freakin' time, be bone stock, and cost 1/6th of what these "production customs" cost.
If you want a combat reliable 1911, buy a good base gun and get it worked on by one of these guyshttp://www.louderthanwords.us. They WILL make sure you don't get a lemon. The 1911 was designed when labor was cheap and technology was expensive. A proper "combat" 1911 requires skilled labor to fit the parts and the labor is expensive. The final product will be what you want it to be, but it WILL cost you. If you want a production gun that will be reliable, don't buy a 1911, the odds are against you.
ETA: I realize that the 1911 platform allows you to make shots that would be almost impossible with any other pistols, but when SHTF, most of that accuracy is out of the window with the adrenal rush, at least that is the case with me. Furthermore, if I was in a situation that dictated the use of a pistol, I'm not going to be engaging targets at 25+ yds, I will be hauling ass in the opposite direction to get a bigger gun, so **for me** most of the accuracy of any pistol is something that I see as not needed. If I can hit a 8" plate at 25yds, I'm a very happy camper. So I guess that reliability and capacity are more important to me than a nice trigger and super accuracy.
I think this thread has reached the end of its life span.
FYI- I know of several high dollar / big name 1911's that have pooped the bed very recently. Including one of mine. Two of them are from Louderthanwords builders, so stating everything is perfect from them is a day late & dollar short in my book. Nobody is perfect.
The only difference is this review was out in public while the others were kept secret so as not to cause waves.
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