View Full Version : Barrels: Stainless, or CHF
I am looking at a Bravo company upper but I am not sure which Barrel steel to go with. I know that the CHF barrels are the hot ticket right now but what are the benefits provided by either CHF or Stainless. I am guessing by the nature of CHF that they are more durable, possibly last longer or endure higher round counts. If I do not shoot extremely high round counts would I benefit from CHF over Stainless, or even over conventional ordnance steel?
Belmont31R
11-26-09, 22:02
With the price difference I would just get the CHF unless you are tight for money.
Stainless is better for accuracy...
The more I look into barrels the more unsure I am of what I shoud get. I want to replace the barrel in my DDM4 for a couple reasons one it is a pre CHF barrel, and two I would like a shorter 14.5" barrel with a pinned Flash Suppressor. After looking at barrels over the past few weeks The main ones I can find that fit my needs are stainless steel. I have not been able to find any 14.5" CHF barrels. Rainier Arms has Stainless barrels of their own manufactuer as well as Noveske, and White Oak Armament Stainless barrels in 14.5" as well as a 13.7" for use with a Noveske KX3 to meet the 16" requirement when pinned.
Now that thats out of the way what are the pros and cons of Stainless vs. CHF? What I know or at least think I know is that CHF barrels will last longer than stainless barrels but how much longer? Should I go with CHF or Stainless and why? I know Noveske stainless barrels are good but what about Rainier and White Oak Armament Barrels?
Sorry for the Barrage of questions.
JP
spamsammich
12-17-09, 01:18
Why is it that you feel the need to change out a perfectly good barrel? Does it not meet your accuracy requirements? You do know that most CHF barrels on the market for ARs are chrome lined and will inherently be less accurate than a high quality SS barrel like a Noveske, right? If longevity is a concern, CHF from BCM or Noveske or Centurion will be a hands down winner. You want accuracy? Go with a SS barrel. At first glance, it seems like you want to change the barrel out for the sake of having a new barrel. Do you shoot enough to notice the difference between a barrel that will last 10k rounds or one that will last 50k?
I always advise against going with a permed muzzle device. I run ONLY 14.5" pinned barrels and I discourage it at every turn UNLESS the person is absolutely sure of what they want and they aren't inclined to tinker with their configuration. If you're the kind of guy that likes to experiment with your rifle and don't have the skills or access to machining tools, stick with the non-NFA length barrels or get the tax stamp. I honestly can't tell much of a difference between my pinned LMT upper and a 16" upper in handling and when I use my Afghan barreled upper, that thing weighs almost 2x as much as my LMT barrel! So while I may save 1.2" in length, I'm stuck with a 2lb barrel. I like the accuracy, but it is a pig to haul around all day.
SWATcop556
12-17-09, 02:40
Send your barrel to ADCO and have them cut it and install the perm muzzle device. Once you shoot out that barrel then replace it.
SS for accuracy and CHF for durability.
I will also venture to say that most shooters will not realize the accuracy differences between the two.
Send your barrel to ADCO and have them cut it and install the perm muzzle device. Once you shoot out that barrel then replace it.
SS for accuracy and CHF for durability.
I will also venture to say that most shooters will not realize the accuracy differences between the two.
If you cut a chrome lined barrel will that chip or flake the chrome at the cut affecting accuracy? It is a good idea though it would save me quite a bit of money about $214 through Rainier for the cut and thread, price of a KX3, and pin and perm. vs about $460 with a new barrel. If the chrome lining is not affected I may just do that. But the Original questions still stand as I am looking at building another AR and unsure of what barrel to go with on it. What approximate round counts could I expect from a good stainless barrel vs a CHF barrel?
Belmont31R
12-17-09, 06:33
If you cut a chrome lined barrel will that chip or flake the chrome at the cut affecting accuracy? It is a good idea though it would save me quite a bit of money about $214 through Rainier for the cut and thread, price of a KX3, and pin and perm. vs about $460 with a new barrel. If the chrome lining is not affected I may just do that. But the Original questions still stand as I am looking at building another AR and unsure of what barrel to go with on it. What approximate round counts could I expect from a good stainless barrel vs a CHF barrel?
ADCO has cut many a chrome lined barrels without issue.
Ive never shot a SS barrel to "failure" but have gotten a couple up into the 6-7k+ range without issue, and reliable reports of 10k+ without significant accuracy lost. Seems a CHF barrel will go 25k+ while holding acceptable accuracy. Basically about double.
CHF seems to be the way of the future in combat barrels. They offer good accuracy out of the box, and the longest barrel life so far. I would personally only buy another SS barrel if it was going to be accuracy based, and I didnt expect to shoot 20k out of it. Obviously for a "fighting gun" accuracy is not the primary concern, and a CHF barrel is more than accurate enough for that purpose.
There is also nothing wrong with a regular 4150 barrel as long as accuracy is not a primary concern. Every 4150 barrel Ive owned has had acceptable "combat" accuracy, and held up pretty good to intense rates of fire. I wouldnt be taking a perfectly good barrel out just because its not CHF or SS.
SWATcop556
12-17-09, 08:08
Like Belmont said, ADCO has cut many thousands of CL barrels and I've never heard of an issue.
I personally would only use a SS barrel if I was building a rig specifically for accuracy. The CHF will give a much longer barrel life (2-3x) than the SS and is more than accurate for what I need it to do.
That doesn't mean that SS are not durable because I've seen some Niveske barrels take some abuse and still shot .5 MOA.
There's nothing wrong with the "regular" BCM uppers, mind you. They didn't spontaneously combust with the introduction of the CHF barrels.
Thanks for the comments and advice, I think I will send off my current upper have the barrel cut down and shoot it for a while. It will save me money for use on another build. A win win.
JP
There's nothing wrong with the "regular" BCM uppers, mind you. They didn't spontaneously combust with the introduction of the CHF barrels.
Very true. Good steel is used on them also;
"Mil-Spec 11595E - Barrel Steel
BCM barrel steel is Mil-Spec per MIL-B-11595E. This grade (CMV) of steel is a Mil-Spec steel used in the USGI M16 family of rifles; it is stronger and will last longer than the typical barrels offered in the commercial market. The Mil-Spec grade steel gets its’ additional strength and rigidity from an increase in carbon and/or vanadium in the alloy. This will offer increased barrel life and performance through use in all types of extreme environments and temperatures."
This might be another option for you..
Aim Surplus has the CHF Daniel Defense barrels on "secret sale"
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Daniel_Defense_16__M4_Profile_Hammer_Forged_Chrome_Lined_Barrel.html
Use this coupon code
DDHFB229
and it's $229.01 delivered
I agree with the others thou. No need to throw away a good barrel but if you just want one for a new build this is a legit offer.
Generally a stainless barrel will be more accurate than a Chrome-Moly-Vanadium (CMV) barrel. Not by a huge margin. One example of many, take a look at the info Molon posted in the link below. Compare the group sizes of the Noveske 16" stainless barrel (0.92" average) to the Noveske 16" N4 barrel (1.24" average): http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=467919 The difference is just slightly more than 1/3" (one third of an inch)
Generally a stainless barrel will have a slightly shorter service life. Don't take this comment to the extreme.
Generally a stainless barrel will be slightly heavier than a CMV barrel.
Weight comparisions:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons/icon-ar15-upper-receiver-weight.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Upper Receiver Weight Comparisons http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons)
A majority of competition shooters favor stainless barrels. You can't go wrong with either, just depends on what features are most important to you and how you plan on using the barrel.
In reference to the KX3, performance vs. added weight and length come into play and need to be considered.
http://03designgroup.com/photo/noveske-kx3-and-barrel-length-considerations/icon-noveske-kx3-barrel-length-considerations.jpg
03designgroup | Noveske KX3 and Barrel Length Considerations http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/noveske-kx3-and-barrel-length-considerations)
I appreciate the input, on the matter of the KX3 I "was" planning on having the barrel cut to 13.7" to make the overall length 16". I was informed that this was a "stupid" idea by Steve at ADCO his words not mine. I am still considering this but am also looking at trimming to 14.5" and perming a flash suppressor.
When discussing barrel life you are really discussing cost
So let's assume $0.35 a round for decent ammo. Note that it's early so check my numbers.
10k rounds is $3,500
A $450 stainless barrel adds about 4.5 cents per round or ~9 % to your total ammo costs
25k rounds is $8,750
A $350 chrome barrel ads about 1.4 cent per round or about 4% to your total ammo costs
Let's also assume you're shooting 25k total rounds. It costs you $8750 in ammo +
$1125 for Stainless (2.5 barrels) or $350 for chrome (1 barrel)
So really the question becomes "is it worth an extra 3 cents per round to get a 1/3 moa increase in accuracy." If you looking in your range bag and it's full of black hills or it's full of wolf you're already answered that question.
After you make the accuracy call, the only other thing to consider is how much weight you can tolerate. You're looking at ~4oz difference.
This also highlights the importance of buying really high quality barrels no matter what the type, because it's a relatively cheap component over it's usable lifetime compared to ammo.
Another example on quality; let's say you get 12k rounds out of a novekse or 10k rounds out of a barrel that's $50 cheaper. The noveske actually saves you money (2k rounds * 4.5 cents per round = $90 - $50 cost difference = $40 saved).
This all assumes you're shooting a lot, and going through barrels, most casual shooters don't. I think the best answer is to buy both and just have more guns.
I appreciate the input, on the matter of the KX3 I "was" planning on having the barrel cut to 13.7" to make the overall length 16". I was informed that this was a "stupid" idea by Steve at ADCO his words not mine. I am still considering this but am also looking at trimming to 14.5" and perming a flash suppressor.
The reason it's "stupid" is because the a 13.7 + KX3 weighs about the same if not more than a 14.5 w/flash or 16" without flash. So you're giving up barrel length (velocity/effectiveness/accuracy) for no net gain in maneuverability (same total length and weight).
If you want the cool factor of the kx3 just pay your tax stamp and get a shorty.
Some SS barrel can be esier to clean too...
Some SS barrel can be esier to clean too...
clean a barrel?
What's that?
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