View Full Version : 20mm rifles for the FBI
That's some serious firepower:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=b332080a26cd6f599163b2fada224717&tab=core&_cview=0
The FBI intends to procure the following items:
Magfed 20mm Rifle with Belgian Camo Overcoat finish. Includes bipod, brake, handguard, free floated barrel and case (Qty: 1 each)
Magfed 20mm Rifle with Navy NWV Camo Duracoat finish. Includes bipod, brake, handguard, free floated barrel and case (Qty: 1 each)
Non-firing bolt assemblies (Qty: 2 each)
Extra magazines (Qty: 4 each)
Suppressors in 20mm (Qty: 2 each)
The Solothurn returns?
What would they use a 20mm for? Stopping vehicles? Are there any pictures?
William B.
11-28-09, 13:51
I talked to a guy at a gun show in York, PA who was trying to sell a scoped 20mm rifle. He wanted over $13K for it! Of course, he had his own personal 20mm rifle. He said it was costing him around $8 a round to reload his own ammunition for it. He also said a team who knew what they were doing could put rounds on a car-sized target at 3 miles.
Littlelebowski
11-28-09, 14:01
This is.....unsettling. Is Janet Reno back in charge?
William B.
11-28-09, 14:22
This is.....unsettling. Is Janet Reno back in charge?
I'm sure that she and Eric Holder operate out of the same playbook...
What would they use a 20mm for? Stopping vehicles? Are there any pictures?
http://www.anzioironworks.com/
William B.
11-28-09, 14:24
What would they use a 20mm for? Stopping vehicles? Are there any pictures?
Here's a link: http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm
William B.
11-28-09, 14:37
A guy I know does weapons T&E's at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA. They test all kinds of stuff there. They even tested steel ROBAR Glock frames. These 20mm may never leave the T&E lab. It is a little bit worrysome, but chances are that they'll only play around with it and never actually "use" it (operationally speaking).
They may have just bought them for shits and giggles...
Sadly, these are unlikely to make it to my local FO. Bummer.
The FBI has taskings in which these are likely useful. Were their interest in them more nefarious, I suspect we'd never know they had them.
What's unsettling about it?
This is.....unsettling. Is Janet Reno back in charge?
Highly unlikely. And FYI, keep in mind the FBI has agents deployed world wide, to include our current war zones.
They may have just bought them for shits and giggles...
They're only buying one of them according to that "solcitation," and it's going to the research/engineering people at Quantico. Doesn't sound like they're sending these out (yet...) to lay siege to anyone. More likely they just want to assess its capabilities - to know them for "defensive" purposes and assess it for potential use by the .gov
Now that I come to think of it, have any of you gentlemen ever fired arms with a caliber larger than .50 BMG? The recoil issues seem problematic...
They're almost 7 feet long and weigh 60+ pounds. I doubt that'll be an issue.
John_Wayne777
11-28-09, 15:59
I doubt HRT is going to be issuing these things to snipers, guys...
Let's not get all panicky. Government agencies own a hell of a lot more dangerous stuff than 20mm...and if a situation gets dire enough we all know those assets will be pulled in to handle the problem.
geminidglocker
11-28-09, 16:38
I want one.
...
Now that I come to think of it, have any of you gentlemen ever fired arms with a caliber larger than .50 BMG? The recoil issues seem problematic...
There is a video clip of one being fired at the link given earlier. Here (http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm)
I doubt HRT is going to be issuing these things to snipers, guys...
Let's not get all panicky. Government agencies own a hell of a lot more dangerous stuff than 20mm...and if a situation gets dire enough we all know those assets will be pulled in to handle the problem.
Thank you John. I'm finding this thread amusing to say the least. Isn't this the same forum that I find all kinds of comments on when a politician makes similar knee jerk reactions to civilians owning assault rifles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxHj1R04g&feature=player_embedded
Mercy.
Thank you John. I'm finding this thread amusing to say the least. Isn't this the same forum that I find all kinds of comments on when a politician makes similar knee jerk reactions to civilians owning assault rifles?
We have a right to own weapons, and do not need to justify them.
The FBI does need to justify their budget, it is not like the coffers are over flowing in these economic times, and purchasing these seems like a waste of tax payer money to me... What could they possibly need a weapons system like this for? If it is for research I'm sure they could borrow some military hardware, perform any tests necessary, and return it.
Thank you John. I'm finding this thread amusing to say the least. Isn't this the same forum that I find all kinds of comments on when a politician makes similar knee jerk reactions to civilians owning assault rifles?
We are "supposed" to have a govt. of the People, by the People, and for the People. Not "of the govt., by the govt. and for the govt.
As it were, Citizens are have their natural law given right to own and bear arms affirmed in our governments primary document therefore, technically, we have every right to be pissed when the govt. attempts to abridge that right.
In this case, since the FBI is a domestic law enforcement agency and thusly "belongs" to the People, the "People" have every right, nay, duty, to question these purchases and firepower for several reasons, the least being for financial reasons and more importantly because since the FBI is a DOMESTIC agency, such weapons are meant to be possibly used against the people at some future time.
The govt. gets its powers and hence its equipment at the consent of the governed, therefore there should be no raised eyebrows when the general Citizenry gets edgy and demands an explination for the aquisition of such equipment.
The govt. nor the FBI is a person nor a Citizen, therefore it's weapons are only technically there because we allow them to have them because "we the People" understand that the job is a difficult one and we care for the well-being of the agents who volunteer to do this difficult job and we would like them to be able to defend themselves just as "we the People" are technically allowed to defend ourselves.
In other words, the govt. nor the FBI, or any other govt. agency, get the benefit of the second amendment and should only have that weaponry necessary to secure the safety of its agents acting on behalf of the "People" and nothing more.
The aquisition of 20mm anti-materiel rifles goes way beyong self defense and thusly NEEDS to be justified.
Wow! Good thing the gov. didn't have that at Waco. Wait, I think they had a tank. Face it they have us out gunned. :D
SWATcop556
11-29-09, 01:57
I'm with John and dbrowne. I'm not sweating it. I'm sure they have a shit-ton of gear that we don't even know about.
And yes they are a domestic LE agency but also work on international cases. I, for one, am glad they have something like it in case the fight we have overseas lands in our lap.
William B.
11-29-09, 02:27
If it came down to it, yes. The government would have us HEAVILY outgunned, but what does the Federal Bureau of Investigation need a 20mm anti-materiel rifle for? I AM jealous of the FBI T&E personnel who get to try it out, though.
The FBI has taskings in which these are likely useful. Were their interest in them more nefarious, I suspect we'd never know they had them.
Exactly.
I'm not quite sure why people feel the addition of a 20mm rifle to the TOE is going to equate with a loss of civil liberties.
The agency has SWAT teams as well as the primary domestic counter-terror asset in the U.S. They also deploy all around the world, including being actively embedded with tiered units in the GWOT.
And the first time a terrorist does something on U.S. soil that requires more firepower to stop, half of the people who are whining "why does the FBI need a 20mm rifle?" will be screaming "why didn't the government prepare for something like this!"
I think the point is that 'we the people' have every right to question any purchase our government makes with our tax dollars, and when questioned, the purchaser has a duty to justify the purchase. The fact that most folks don't care, and most purchases aren't questioned, doesn't in any way change the truth of the statement...
This would be best done through our 'representatives', but as there aren't many of them left in Washington, it falls to those citizens who are curious to ask directly, and to keep asking until a satisfactory answer is given. Granted, were the answer to be found unsatisfactory, it likely wouldn't matter, and it is extremely unlikely that the purposes - stated or otherwise - are anything nefarious or to be worried about. But our government has given us many, many reasons to distrust it in the past, has done so at a greatly accelerated rate in the more recent past, and has therefore earned the questions it receives when it makes a purchase such as this.
For me, this is not a question of "which of our vehicles do you need / intend to disable at 3 miles?", but simply a matter of justification requested by those who pay the bills - and that ain't a bad thing...
Procuring a 20mm is bizzare enough......they could have bought a vehicle mounted M60A1 , 6 bbl GE gatling gun in 20mm. So it could be even crazier.
Makes me wonder if they are testing the capabilities of the 20mm (As if the Military doesn't KNOW that already?) to have data due to perceived 20mm THREAT??
FN in MT
John_Wayne777
11-29-09, 10:54
Thank you John. I'm finding this thread amusing to say the least. Isn't this the same forum that I find all kinds of comments on when a politician makes similar knee jerk reactions to civilians owning assault rifles?
There's good reason for that....what private citizens own shouldn't be any concern of the politicians.
What the federal government owns and how it is used, however, is all of our concern.
I'm not particularly troubled by the FBI having 20mm rifles because I have some general idea of the vast array of deadly toys the federal government has access to (usually with good reason) so the FBI getting a new 20mm rifle doesn't concern me all that much. There aren't a bunch of FBI agents sitting around a team room staring at the 20mm and hoping they'll be the guy who gets to shoot me in the head with it.
No biggie. I am OK with that as far as my tax dollars go. Hope they get em.
As mentioned they are the primary agency for defense against domestic terrorism, not too mention operations around the world. There are certain locations that require anti-material defense capabilities. While they currently have weapons to be used in this case, the 20mm would definitely up the odds of a one shot stop of a vehicle, possibly up armored.
Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.
I'm not particularly troubled by the FBI having 20mm rifles because I have some general idea of the vast array of deadly toys the federal government has access to (usually with good reason) so the FBI getting a new 20mm rifle doesn't concern me all that much.
This was my point as well. It wasn't about our right to Gov. oversight, it was about people be shocked about the weapon itself.
Procuring a 20mm is bizzare enough......they could have bought a vehicle mounted M60A1 , 6 bbl GE gatling gun in 20mm. So it could be even crazier.
Makes me wonder if they are testing the capabilities of the 20mm (As if the Military doesn't KNOW that already?) to have data due to perceived 20mm THREAT??
FN in MT
I suspect the second part of your post is the answer to your first. They already know what an M60 can do - it's just a .308 machinegun. A 20mm "gatling" gun is not exactly man portable - but a 20mm bolt gun is, and is theoretically available to anyone (though it's an NFA weapon), so they want to know what it can do, how it compares to a .50 bmg, etc. Military info on the 20mm is likely limited to "military" purposes like shooting at other nations' armored vehicles with hundreds of rounds at a time. I suspect the FBI is more interested in what a single 20mm round, of various types, might do to a civilian vehicle's engine compartment, various types of non-military armor, building materials, etc.
They may also want to evaluate it for anti-vehicle use by the bureau. Who knows. They bought a whopping one of them to test it. If they'd bought a baker's dozen of them for every field office I'd get excited, but this just doesn't really concern me much.
My only concern is that if I cannot have one (I think I can as an NFA DD actually??) I don't think the FBI or other gov entity should have one either. 2A is about parity in capability for arms (not munitions) with the gov
They bought a whopping one of them to test it. If they'd bought a baker's dozen of them for every field office I'd get excited, but this just doesn't really concern me much.
The request shows two. One each in two different finishes.
The request shows two. One each in two different finishes.
Right you are. Doesn't really change anything I've said, though.
And yes, you too can own one of these, too. They're considered DDs.
Belmont31R
11-29-09, 20:14
I just wish LE had to follow the same laws as the people regarding weapons.
I don't think allowing LE to own "anything" while the people are relegated to only "certain" firearms is morally correct given the nature of our founding. Just like I don't see how an LE officer can go arrest someone, and put them in jail for years for possessing a weapon that is in the same class as the weapon the officer used while busting their door down. Like the picture of the ATF guys at Waco...holding machine guns to go arrest someone for supposedly having a machine gun.
One people one set of rules doesnt matter if you are a gov employee or not. I find it shameful our country allows this type of behavior. I also do not agree with different charges for 'assault' based on the victim being LE or not. Reminds me of the laws on assaulting the kings men in merry ole England.
I am not anti-LE in the least. I just want EQUAL protection under the law, and laws applied equally to the citizens. I love the saying...the only rank higher than President of the United States is United States Citizen.
Boo ****ing hoo, you can't have the same weapons the police have. You're a ****ing hobbyist, they are working professionals with a legitimate need for more capable firearms than the general populace. You want to BE EQUAL? You want a 10.5 full-auto SBR to carry in your car trunk? Fine, sign on for the professional responsibility that such a "privilege" brings with it. Go through those doors in the 'hood in the early AM. Subject yourself to the daily danger and civil liability that comes with everything that you do, put your career and life on the line with your courtroom testimony and actions every time you get out of your car. Go to the funerals of your friends and co-workers on basis more regular than anyone should ever have to. Remember, you want these kinds of weapons as toys, they carry them because they have to.
Boo ****ing hoo, you can't have the same weapons the police have. You're a ****ing hobbyist, they are working professionals with a legitimate need for more capable firearms than the general populace. You want to BE EQUAL? You want a 10.5 full-auto SBR to carry in your car trunk? Fine, sign on for the professional responsibility that such a "privilege" brings with it. Go through those doors in the 'hood in the early AM. Subject yourself to the daily danger and civil liability that comes with everything that you do, put your career and life on the line with your courtroom testimony and actions every time you get out of your car. Go to the funerals of your friends and co-workers on basis more regular than anyone should ever have to. Remember, you want these kinds of weapons as toys, they carry them because they have to.
Someone needs a history lesson
After you've participated in a dozen or so police funerals you can get back to me on lessons. Until then I'll go back to teaching them.
After you've participated in a dozen or so police funerals you can get back to me on lessons. Until then I'll go back to teaching them.
Police funerals are irrelevant to the 2A and the RKBA.
Anyone who believes that police should be treated as a special class above the average citizenry in rights needs to think about the reason we we have the 2A.
I support LE to the fullest. But not as a special class of citizen.
It has nothing to do with toys.
This is.....unsettling. Is Janet Reno back in charge?
Hahaha, I spit coffee on my keyboard when I read this. I will not vacation near Waco Texas this year :cool:
Belmont31R
11-30-09, 00:21
Boo ****ing hoo, you can't have the same weapons the police have. You're a ****ing hobbyist, they are working professionals with a legitimate need for more capable firearms than the general populace. You want to BE EQUAL? You want a 10.5 full-auto SBR to carry in your car trunk? Fine, sign on for the professional responsibility that such a "privilege" brings with it. Go through those doors in the 'hood in the early AM. Subject yourself to the daily danger and civil liability that comes with everything that you do, put your career and life on the line with your courtroom testimony and actions every time you get out of your car. Go to the funerals of your friends and co-workers on basis more regular than anyone should ever have to. Remember, you want these kinds of weapons as toys, they carry them because they have to.
It has nothing to do with a legitimate need. I don't need to prove a need to the gov to own a gun. I dont recall the word need being used in conjunction with owning a gun...this isnt Europe where I need to ask permission to own something that is part of our Constitution.
I don't see how you connect "privilege" with owning a firearm. I guess all these years I was mistaken when I read Bill of Rights. I guess it says List of Privileges based on if you're a gov employee or not...:rolleyes:
kaiservontexas
11-30-09, 00:48
I see no LEO need in a 20mm rifle, which is a antiquated anti-tank weapon pre-WWII outdated by 1935 armor. Unless they know something about a mass of WWI tanks on the Canadian or Mexican boarder about to attempt an invasion?
They already have their sniper rifles in .308win and .50BMG. I am sure a few have .338 LM rifles on hand. Those rifles do a better precision job. And are they planning on a 3 mile siege? I agree with the comment about Janet Reno.
I cant believe the FBI would do such a thing...belgian camo? Whatever happened to buying American, shouldve gotten their 20mm in multicam.
Riiight...cops "need" 10.5" suppressed SBRs for hood rats when un-suppressed 14.5" M4's are perfectly fine for house to house CQB in Iraq. Heck, the Marines in Fallujah had 20" M16A2's.\
LE do need a good carbine, but they don't need the fancy NFA stuff just to do their job. I could care less that they have it though.
Lets make a deal; we, the citizenry, will not question any LE small arms purchases (even a minigun) if every adult citizen who can pass the NICS can buy same (repeal of all NFA acts).
We can buy it all anyway, it's just a question of revenue for the BATFE and small supply driving costs out of the reach of most people.
Boo ****ing hoo, you can't have the same weapons the police have. You're a ****ing hobbyist, they are working professionals with a legitimate need for more capable firearms than the general populace. You want to BE EQUAL? You want a 10.5 full-auto SBR to carry in your car trunk? Fine, sign on for the professional responsibility that such a "privilege" brings with it.
You have got to be kidding me.
You do know why the Second Amendment exists, right? It's not to support a "hobby" or hunt ducks.
eguns is spot-on on this one. Every time a law is passed that bans or restricts arms but leaves an exception for the government, the Second Amendment is eroded.
It's not a "privilege." It's in the Bill of Rights for a reason. Please save us the chest-thumping stories about going through doors or signing up for your job. The whole point of the the right to keep and bear arms is that the population in general will be as well armed as the government - which would include the police.
If you don't like that or don't think that's the way it should be, Europe is that way ---->
John_Wayne777
11-30-09, 07:33
Boo ****ing hoo, you can't have the same weapons the police have. You're a ****ing hobbyist, they are working professionals with a legitimate need for more capable firearms than the general populace.
Why, because they deal with dangerous criminals?
Do you know how dangerous criminals become dangerous criminals? Generally because they attack some ordinary person and kill or grievously injure them. It's pretty hard to argue that these people are so dangerous that police need firearms and body armor to deal with them but the guy with the chalk outline around him shouldn't have access to the same stuff.
You want to BE EQUAL? You want a 10.5 full-auto SBR to carry in your car trunk?
Fine, sign on for the professional responsibility that such a "privilege" brings with it.
It's not a privilege. It's a right. Every one of us has the right to defend ourselves from a criminal use of violence by a scumbag...and inherent to that right is the right to possess and use a effective means of self defense. Badge or no.
This thread has clearly jumped the shark. It's turning into an "Us vs. them" thread and that's not what M4C is about. As such, it's time to shut 'er down.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.