Given the choice between 9 pellets and 15...

[SnakeLogan]

2 3/4 inch 12 pellet 00 buckshot loads from Remington are my favorite HD round, but I ran out and no where around here sells them any more. Now I'm stuck deciding between 2 3/4 inch 9 pellet 00 and 3 inch 15 pellet 00.

I feel a little underarmed with just 9 pellets, but the recoil with the 15 kicks like a mule. What would you choose for your HD round?

[PRGGodfather]

The Federal Tactical 00 load with the Flight Control Wad keeps the pellets VERY tight, especially for HD. You can get all nine pellets usually within a 6-inch group at 25 YARDS! Repeat, 25 YARDS! Even closer = even tighter!

The pellets are uniform shaped to aid grouping, and are the tightest you will ever see with 00! We have great peformance with them, and the recoil is a little less than standard 2-3/4" shells. 3" shells just makes it harder to get back on target, for most people, at least. Absolutely love the stuff...

I wouldn't feel undergunned with it AT ALL.

[Buck]

9....

[DocGKR]

We only use 2 3/4" 12 ga 00 and slug loads....

[Burt Gummer]

Increased recoil and decreased capacity should be taken into consideration for HD.

[RWK]

I feel a little underarmed with just 9 pellets, but the recoil with the 15 kicks like a mule.

"Underarmed with just 9 pellets"? Um, ok... please explain. :confused:

[Oscar 319]

The Federal Tactical 00 load with the Flight Control Wad keeps the pellets VERY tight, especially for HD. You can get all nine pellets usually within a 6-inch group at 25 YARDS! Repeat, 25 YARDS! Even closer = even tighter!

The pellets are uniform shaped to aid grouping, and are the tightest you will ever see with 00! We have great peformance with them, and the recoil is a little less than standard 2-3/4" shells. 3" shells just makes it harder to get back on target, for most people, at least. Absolutely love the stuff...

I wouldn't feel undergunned with it AT ALL.

I continue to be amazed by this round. In my applications for the shotgun, I see little need for slugs anymore. I amazed co-workers last year when I put down a wounded mule deer instantly with a 20 yard neck shot using this round. They though I was joking when told them it was a buckshot round and not a slug. All of the pellets struck inside the neck.

[HD1911]

"Underarmed with just 9 pellets"? Um, ok... please explain. :confused:

LOL....yes please explain

[SnakeLogan]

"Underarmed with just 9 pellets"? Um, ok... please explain. :confused:

With 12 or 15 pellets, your odds of getting a CNS hit go up quite a bit percentage wise.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dude,

You don't need CNS performance with buckshot or slugs in most cases. It's so far away from typical service pistol performance that there's no contest. The overwhelming majority of individuals serviced with a load of 00 buck (standard nine pellet) or a slug to the torso are incapacitated and/or expire on the spot. If you don't believe me, ask any experienced trauma doc how many cases of buckshot, slugs or centerfire rifle wounds they have treated compared to pistol wounds. The answer will answer your questions I think. Shootees of these longarm rounds typically go to the medical examiners, not the ER.

[SnakeLogan]

I got to test the 3 inch shells two weeks ago. Impressions? Might be a little too much recoil for HD... Plus I don't like losing that extra round.

I guess I'll just have to continue my search for more 2 3/4 12 pellet.

[TOrrock]

Federal LE 00 9 pellet w/Fllite Control wad.

This stuff is the heat.

Rob Haught demonstrated some of mine at the class he held up in OH.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37851


Rob did some patterning with his 14" shotgun at about 18yds to show us the difference between the Federal Flight Control 00 Buck shot and standard Winchester 00 Buck.

The Flight Control Buck was simply amazing and really changes the effective range of 00 Buck.

At about 18yds, buck shot become a liability as you are almost off the target at this distance.


Federal Flight Control 00 Buck @ 12yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Federal_FC_Buck.jpg


Federal Flight Control 00 Buck @ 18yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Federal_FC_Buck_17yds.jpg

Winchester 00 Buck @ 18yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Winchester_BuckShot.jpg




C4

[Glock17JHP]

The original question was: 9 pellets or 15 pellets...
The answer is obvious... 9 pellets... and 'Low Recoil'...

When you go past that, then you want to know which 9 pellet 'Low Recoil' load...

The answer may not be as straightfoward as some are thinking it is...
Your expected scenario may determine the best load...

LE use can be very different than HD use...

LE use typically means that longer engagement distances are more likely to be encountered... for LE use, I would agree with Federal LE 9-pellet 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck w/'Flight Control'...

HD use typically means shorter engagement distances are more likely to be encountered... for HD use, I would recommend Winchester Ranger 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck...

At 50 feet, the Federal load will give a roughly 6 inch pattern...
At 50 feet, the Winchester load will give a roughly 11 inch pattern...
Now think about the distances you are likely to encounter...

I prefer the Ranger load for HD... but I think the Federal load is better for LE...

[User Name]

9 pellet

[Glock17JHP]

2 3/4 inch 12 pellet 00 buckshot loads from Remington are my favorite HD round, but I ran out and no where around here sells them any more. Now I'm stuck deciding between 2 3/4 inch 9 pellet 00 and 3 inch 15 pellet 00.

I feel a little underarmed with just 9 pellets, but the recoil with the 15 kicks like a mule. What would you choose for your HD round?

For my HD round you ask???
Winchester Ranger RA1200 9-pellet 'Low Recoil'...
4 inch pattern at 30 feet...
How far is it across your livingroom???

[Glock17JHP]

Guys,

Look again at the picture posted by Templar about 4 posts above this one... specifically the picture showing the Federal FlightControl 00 Buck @ 12 yards (36 feet)...

The upper half of that hole in the paper is actually from the FlightControl wad (shotcup)... the size of the pattern is actually only about 1 inch across!!! I got similar performance, too...

I shot the Federal Tactical LE132 00 yesterday along with Winchester Ranger RA1200 (both are 'Low Recoil' 9-pellet LE loads) and also some Winchester Supreme XX Magnum X12XCOB5 12-pellet, all are 00 Buck 12 Gauge loads. Nothing like 'seeing' the patterns in real-life!!!

We shot at the side of a water-heater... I have pictures of the patterns, I just haven't downloaded them yet...

My thoughts after actually shooting and examining the patterns...

Winchester Supreme X12X COB5
I really don't like this 12-pellet 'Short Magnum' any more... even though it used to be what I loaded my shotgun with for HD. The reasons are simple: It has more recoil than I really care for, and the pattern is too big for my personal tastes. At 30 feet, it made a 7 inch pattern from my shotgun... Not bad, but a bit big in my view.

Federal Tactical LE132 00
Sorry, for me the pattern is just too tight!!! The pattern is only a little bigger than a slug at 30 feet!!! The pattern was only about 1 inch across!!! For LE use where there may be more use for precision shots and the added danger of possible colateral damage? OK... maybe... Is it the best thing for HD??? No, I don't think so... I just don't like it!!!

Winchester Ranger RA1200
Like Goldilocks said: "This one is just right!!!" The pattern is about 4 inches across at 30 feet... I like that size of pattern!!! I don't really want the shot to still be in the shotcup at target impact even at 30 feet... Sorry...

Comments???

[randyb]

I will use pretty much any buckshot as my gun seems to do fine. Currently I use Remington #1 buck in 2 3/4 . It preformance is just right for my home defense good. Longer range scenes I do opt for 00 or 000 or slugs when in bear country.

[Glock17JHP]

Check out this picture of the Federal FlightControl 00 Buck LE132 00 fired from 30 feet...

[Glock17JHP]

Now check out this picture of the Winchester Ranger RA1200 fired from 30 feet...

[Heavy Metal]

Federal LE 00 9 pellet w/Fllite Control wad.

This stuff is the heat.

Rob Haught demonstrated some of mine at the class he held up in OH.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37851

A guy with a SBS was playing with this load at a local range a couple of years ago.


It literally made my jaw drop when I saw the remarkable results.

[RWK]

Food for thought regarding pattern size for home use. Determine the longest shot you'd reasonably have to make in/around the home. Some people may be surprised at how far some interior ranges can be when measured on an oblique. For example, I have an open floor plan and high ceilings, with a hallway "bridge" upstairs. A shot from my upstairs office door down to the far corner of the breakfast room (which also contains the back door...) is a fair piece. Then think about desired pattern size.

[Glock17JHP]

Heavy Metal,

I really enjoyed looking that thread over. I had never seen that one. I am interested to know more about the shortened stocks. Is there a typical length, or typical amount to shorten??? In our last outing it did seem like it would be an improvement if the stock was shorter on my 8-shot Winchester Defender, even though I am 5' 10" and weigh about 175. I also was not totally happy with my front 'bead' sight (totally stock), since it shoots just about everything about 3 inches high at 30 feet. This shotgun 'point shoots' perfectly for me, but the front sight maybe needs to be taller???

RWK,

I agree 100% with your thoughts about indoor HD shooting. My longest distance indoors would be about 30 feet (if I was in the hallway near the master bedroom and the perp was standing in the bathtub in the kid's bathroom at the other end of the house... which is not very likely). Realistically, 20 to 25 feet would be the maximum, and my pattern with Winchester Ranger RA1200 would only be about 3 inches across at that maximum.

[Glock17JHP]

You know... if I place my target right on top of the barrel, the pattern is just about right, actually. Maybe the front bead sight is OK???

[DrJSW]

Dude,

You don't need CNS performance with buckshot or slugs in most cases. It's so far away from typical service pistol performance that there's no contest. The overwhelming majority of individuals serviced with a load of 00 buck (standard nine pellet) or a slug to the torso are incapacitated and/or expire on the spot. If you don't believe me, ask any experienced trauma doc how many cases of buckshot, slugs or centerfire rifle wounds they have treated compared to pistol wounds. The answer will answer your questions I think. Shootees of these longarm rounds typically go to the medical examiners, not the ER.

Absolutely true. I've attended/reviewed a number of autopsies of individual shot in the torso with slug/00buck, but never a living patient.

Also, an interesting anecdote on the Federal Flite-Control wad. I reviewed a case in a Midwest city where the subject was shot with the 9-pellet FC wad load at a range of approximately 10 yards. As it happens the LEO aimed at the subject's lateral pelvis, which resulted in massive injuries to the pelvis and femur and although the subject survived, he lost the leg and half of his pelvis had to be surgically removed as well. (The surgical procedure, a hemipelvectomy, is a radical surgical procedure that I have witnessed only once, and was the only surgery I have assisted on that caused me to reconsider eating for the rest of the day.) The ER doc who examined the wound initially reported it as a circular "shotgun slug" entry wound, with a "rathole" exit wound. The LEO insisted that he used 00 buck (that agency does not issue slug ammo), but the doc refused to believe him until he viewed the xrays and saw a single ball of 00 buck retained in the pelvis. The wad was recovered from the wound in the OR. The other 8 pellets made a ragged exit wound less than 1" in diameter.

This is a very potent round and one that I not only highly recommend, but also it is the only buckshot issued and used by my LE agency, and I use it in my tactical shotguns personally.

[Glock17JHP]

I do actually understand wanting the Federal FC load in LE, maybe for HD also, if you have a shotgun with rifle sights. I happen to have a plain bead front sight, so I know my level of precise aiming wil not be too great compared to rifle sights. This is one reason I prefer to use the Ranger load for HD personally. This load patterns a lot tighter than standard buckshot, but not so tight that my shotgun is the weak link. If I had a Benelli with rifle sights, I might want the Federal FC load.

[Heavy Metal]

Heavy Metal,

I really enjoyed looking that thread over. I had never seen that one. I am interested to know more about the shortened stocks. Is there a typical length, or typical amount to shorten??? In our last outing it did seem like it would be an improvement if the stock was shorter on my 8-shot Winchester Defender, even though I am 5' 10" and weigh about 175. I also was not totally happy with my front 'bead' sight (totally stock), since it shoots just about everything about 3 inches high at 30 feet. This shotgun 'point shoots' perfectly for me, but the front sight maybe needs to be taller???

RWK,

I agree 100% with your thoughts about indoor HD shooting. My longest distance indoors would be about 30 feet (if I was in the hallway near the master bedroom and the perp was standing in the bathtub in the kid's bathroom at the other end of the house... which is not very likely). Realistically, 20 to 25 feet would be the maximum, and my pattern with Winchester Ranger RA1200 would only be about 3 inches across at that maximum.

Dude, that ain't my thread, I just quoted a post above mine with pics. The SBS wasn't mine. It belonged to a guy at the range. It was a chopped three shot 870 with a cut-down wood buttstock if I remember correctly. I don't remember who the guy was, just some dude I occasionally run into who always has some cool toys. I think he is a SOT.