View Full Version : Can type flash suppressors and the BATF
There's lots of single chamber flash suppression devices out there right now, and all of them seem to be tested by the BATF to certify they're not sound suppressors.
Since I'm a machinist, I want to make my own flash suppressor, but what do I need to do to get the BATF to verify it's not a silencer?
Another issue here, is that my barrel was supplied a little shorter than I ordered (it's a 14.5, not 16), so I have to pin the damn thing on before it's legal. This isn't a problem in the grand scheme - but since I'm going to be prototyping, there's gonna be a couple revisions before I get there.
So how would one approach the feds on this? I don't really want to be put on the map as a weapons component manufacturer just yet. I also don't want to end up in federal pound me in the azz prison for NFA violations.
There's lots of single chamber flash suppression devices out there right now, and all of them seem to be tested by the BATF to certify they're not sound suppressors..
AFAIK the BATFE does not sound test flash hiders to determine if they are silencers or not. Not sure where you got that idea.
I'm pretty certain it's on Noveske's website for the flaming pig.
EDIT:
"The Noveske KX3 is classified as a flash suppressor by the BATF FTB"
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=kx3556p&cat=11&page=1&search=&since=&status=
I believe this is in reference to ban states which do not allow flash suppressors, BATFE isn't checking for noise suppression.
The Noveske KX3 looks like some barrel tuners I've seen. I guess it could or would supress the flash too. Very interesting. As long as the device is open ended like the Noveske I wouldn't worry about anyone misstaking it for a sound supressor.:cool:
The noveske isn't open ended. It's got a cone inside the end - essentially a single chamber sound suppressor. That end piece comes off for cleaning.
I picked up some stainless today to start making mine, but then checked my tap index cabinet and I don't have a 1/2-28 on hand. :mad: So tomorrow I need to go pick another one up.
FJ540MN said;
The noveske isn't open ended. It's got a cone inside the end - essentially a single chamber sound suppressor. That end piece comes off for cleaning.
You sure can't see it with my old eyes!! The pic isn't real clear or to dark one. Now you've got me interested. That's the one thing the about regular flash hiders that bugs me , there seems to be no good or easy way to clean them. Carbon build up around the crown can mess up accuracy and make ya talk to yourself if not noticed.
I'm not going off their website - I've looked at dozens of threads on these things. There's pictures all over the web.
I won't be making a copy of theirs either. Mine will be a custom design.
Here ya go:
http://store.a51tactical.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=1777&zenid=9fhk58hecvdrg0afms5n1g56q4
Thanks FJ540MN, I'm with ya now. Let us know what you come up with.
Frank Castle
12-01-09, 16:11
There's lots of single chamber flash suppression devices out there right now, and all of them seem to be tested by the BATF to certify they're not sound suppressors.
Since I'm a machinist, I want to make my own flash suppressor, but what do I need to do to get the BATF to verify it's not a silencer?
So how would one approach the feds on this? I don't really want to be put on the map as a weapons component manufacturer just yet. I also don't want to end up in federal pound me in the azz prison for NFA violations.
Send a drawing for approval and retain response for your records prior to cutting any metal.
So I just get to sit around with an unregistered SBR till they feel so compelled as to respond? No thanks.
Was talking to a gunsmith today about the project and he liked what I was describing. He also warned that there's a dB spec as to what amount of attenuation is permissible before it becomes classified as a Suppressor. I haven't seen that on the ATF's site, but it does mean I need to go looking further.
What I want to do is move the typical "forward projection" type brake device to the rear of the muzzle opening so it has most of it's volume behind the crown. This will force the flash to either exit behind the bullet, or do a 90 and then another 90 to escape the rear ports on the brake. There will be no internal baffles, but there will be a typical radially drilled brake in the path of the barrel - essentially, a single chamber silencer - only with ports in the outside of the can as well (so it should have next to no sound compensation characteristics other than possibly smoothing the gas flow.
It's a big buffer tube, just set back and dumped to the sides rather than the front.
I have a pretty solid background in acoustical theory and practice. I made a phase-cancelling muffler for my car about 15 years ago. This is not an accidental silencer waiting to happen. I know what needs to occur to muffle a gunshot, and I won't be designing this device to do anything of the sort.
Frank Castle
12-01-09, 21:27
[QUOTE=FJ540MN]So I just get to sit around with an unregistered SBR till they feel so compelled as to respond? No thanks.[QUOTE]
If it's in your possession- you already are. The technical term you need to become familiar with is constructive intent. Say, I dropped my soap....would you mind picking it up for me?:rolleyes:
My lower receiver is still in UPS's possession - so no, I'm not in violation. :rolleyes:
Frank Castle
12-01-09, 21:57
Whatever Slick. I provided you with the answer to your OP, but you have already made up your mind with regards to your course of action. Good Luck with your endeavor. Not that it matters one bit, but it is complete BS to think that there is an established threshold for permitted noise reduction. Without a published statute, it is purely arbitrary and you will likely find yourself on the wrong side of the law. If there is any appreciable noise reduction it is a supressor- period. Secondly, you needn't have baffles to qualify as a supressor- merely volume as ATF has ruled that a plastic bottle attached to a firearm is a supressor. How much volume is also a gray area- i.e. Noveske KX3 Vs. AAC Rebar Cutter. Finally, the last thing you want to do is post your intentions in an open forum using the terms "essentially, a single chamber silencer" and "can" when describing the muzzle device you intend to fabricate. As a final suggestion, I would advise you check silencertests.com and bounce your ideas off the members that frequent the silecersmithing forum. They can direct you to the exact information that you will require and may provide some valuable insight into the design/construction of your device.
If I was interested in breaking the law, I wouldn't be posting this here.
I don't think what I've designed will reduce the actual report of the weapon, but it should divert it to the sides and completely eliminate the visible flash (which is not illegal here). Rather than calling it a can, it's more of an inverted shroud - the ports being on the back instead of the front.
A potato is an effective silencer. If I wanted mute the gun, I don't need anything attached to it to do so. ;)
look up Nor Cal Precision. They made a flash hider for bolt guns that looked like a supperssor but had cutouts on the side. The barrel had some significant baffles cut in but it wasnt a sound suppressor. I think they are out of buisness now but you should be able to find some pictures.
This review has some info on it. http://www.tacticalintervention.com/reviewsnorcalnighthawk.html
Even if you dont like it its an interesting design.
Those nor-cal ones do look interesting.
For the time being, I've decided to just make a more traditional brake. I'll worry about better flash suppression down the road.
Noveske may look like a Flash Suppressor with that cone, but there's no washer or cover at the end of Flash Suppressor to make it a Sound Suppressor, it's just a sound re director, basically.
From what I understand if it suppresses the rifle at all, it's a suppressor. The same reason the fake suppressors are just a solid tube is because a hollow tube actually has some sound reduction.
So no, I'd say the ATF will call anything that reduces sound that goes over the muzzle a sound suppressor.
Same way they'd call anything that doubles, even on accident, a Machine gun.
I'd also quit throwing around the fact that you had an unregistered SBR.
But then again, do whatever you want on internet forums with a Law Enforcement Section, and many active LE. Not that I endorse breaking the law.
:rolleyes:
I'd put an A2 flash hider on there for right now. Because right now you have constructive Possession.
YMMV.
ETA: Also, the AAC Rebar Cutter is restricted as a silencer. Go ask over in the AAC Sub forum on Silencer Talk or do a search of their forum, and read where employees have said it is restricted as such.
decodeddiesel
12-11-09, 10:08
Wow a lot of bad data in this thread.
OP, first things first, either pin/silver solder something onto that 14.5" barrel or spend the $200 and register it as an SBR. There is no excuse for having an unregistered SBR in your possesion.
Now about your muzzle device ideas, if want to keep screwing things on and off of it then you're going to have to register it or if you're not married to it then perhaps sell it off and buy a 16".
As far as what the ATF defines as a suppressor...ANY sound attenuation whats so ever would define a muzzle device as a suppressor and therefor it would be subject to the $200 tax stamp and a form 1 or form 4. This is a change from a while back when the device had to attenuate more the 5db which is what you're thinking of.
The Noveske KX3 being defined as a flash suppressor has to do with it's use in "ban states" such as Massachusetts and Connecticut where a flash suppressor ist verboten and a "muzzle brake" is good to go. The ATF defined the KX3 as a flash suppressing device. Similarly they defined the Primary Weapons FSC556 as a non-flash suppressing device so it is popular for "ban state" builds.
It has been found that the KX3 does not attenuate sound levels, it merely focuses the supersonic blast wave forward away from the shooter. A similar design, though far more effective (and classified as a suppressor) is the Ops Inc. M4-S. It is designed to focus the blast away form the shooter and attenuate the noise levels, not to hearing safe, but rather to "take the edge" off of SBRs.
I would say this, if you're going to start machining your own muzzle devices and the designs you're using use K or V baffles you need to be very careful. The safe money would be to call the ATF's NFA branch and ask them before you proceed.
The fact that there isn't any leeway in the dB signature is the reason I've postponed the design I have in my head.
I love how you all seem to think I'm stupid enough to have constructive possession and some how flaunt it all over the world(web). My lower was never here while my barrel was too short. It actually puts you in mall cop ninja respect with me. Internet spook badasses - yeah, I'm so worried there's LE people here. You have any idea how many LE people I'm friends with? Didn't think so. :rolleyes:
If the ATF wanted to nail me on something, I'm sure they could. Just like they wanted to nail David Koresh - I have a lathe, mill, and a shitload of tool steel, so I must be making m16's right? I'm certainly capable. :eek: Oh shit, I got the FA DD bolt carrier... I'm so ****ed. I better sell all my machinery before someone gets a warrant and finds my copy of Anarchists Cookbook.
You people amaze me. To think I actually became disabled to protect you. Un****ing real.
decodeddiesel
12-11-09, 12:21
The fact that there isn't any leeway in the dB signature is the reason I've postponed the design I have in my head.
I love how you all seem to think I'm stupid enough to have constructive possession and some how flaunt it all over the world(web). My lower was never here while my barrel was too short. It actually puts you in mall cop ninja respect with me. Internet spook badasses - yeah, I'm so worried there's LE people here. You have any idea how many LE people I'm friends with? Didn't think so. :rolleyes:
If the ATF wanted to nail me on something, I'm sure they could. Just like they wanted to nail David Koresh - I have a lathe, mill, and a shitload of tool steel, so I must be making m16's right? I'm certainly capable. :eek: Oh shit, I got the FA DD bolt carrier... I'm so ****ed. I better sell all my machinery before someone gets a warrant and finds my copy of Anarchists Cookbook.
You people amaze me. To think I actually became disabled to protect you. Un****ing real.
You need to settle down there guy.
There are a lot of others here who have sacrificed a lot while in uniform as well (myself included) to protect the freedoms we all enjoy. You throwing it in our faces is not called for, nor is it welcome on this board.
No one is trying to insult your intelligence, we're just trying to keep you out of trouble.
Well this thread has completely derailed...
Lets move on...
B
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