Emergency Power

[Bimmer]

Hi all,

I'm trying to figure out an emergency source of electricity.

This would be for the occasional power outage, SHTF, or TEOTWAWKI.

I want to be able to run at least my fridge and/or gas furnace's blower, so I figure I need at least 1,750-2,000 watts.

I'm 35 years old, and I want something that will last me the rest of my natural life (40+ years).

I'm looking at generators, and a decent 3,250 Generac runs $450. Downside: they're expensive, bulky, and relatively complicated.

I'm also looking at power inverters (to run off one of my cars), and 2,000 watts runs $200 or so.

I don't have any problem storing enough gasoline to feed either of these options for weeks and weeks.

Any thoughts?

Bimmer

[Spade]

I'm not sure if you saw this but here is a great thread on generators.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38034

[Bimmer]

Thanks, Spade.

I saw that thread, but I'm still curious about the generator vs. inverter issue.

Bimmer

[PA PATRIOT]

Last year I tried to use a inverter 1800 watts If I recall correctly to power a single door, 21 CF refrigerator over at my brothers house. His power was off for 6 hours and he was afraid that his food was going to spoil. We used a 15 foot extension cord plugged directly to the refrigerator from the inverter and 1800 watts would not cut it. The surge for the refrigerator was rated at 970 watts so the 1800 watts should have covered it. I ended up dragging a 3000 watt generator over 30 minutes later and all was fine. I checked the output from the vehicle to the inverter the next day and all was within spec and the extension cord checked out also, who knows but I'll never rely on one again to power anything bigger then a lap-Top.

[Bimmer]

Last year I tried to use a inverter 1800 watts If I recall correctly to power a single door, 21 CF refrigerator over at my brothers house. His power was off for 6 hours and he was afraid that his food was going to spoil. We used a 15 foot extension cord plugged directly to the refrigerator from the inverter and 1800 watts would not cut it. The surge for the refrigerator was rated at 970 watts so the 1800 watts should have covered it. I ended up dragging a 3000 watt generator over 30 minutes later and all was fine. I checked the output from the vehicle to the inverter the next day and all was within spec and the extension cord checked out also, who knows but I'll never rely on one again to power anything bigger then a lap-Top.

What exactly happened when you tried it?

I've heard a bunch of these kinds of stories... somebody on Amazon says that the 1500watt Duracell/Xantrex inverter wouldn't run her fridge.

I can't quite understand why this happens. My sense is that some (cheap) inverters have a breakers installed in each outlet that pop at 10amps or so.
I'm not an electrician, but 10amps is only 1200 watts, so that might be why you couldn't run the fridge.

Some of the better inverters advertise that they'll run the whole current though either outlet, at 20 amps or so.

Also, a lot of the better inverters have MUCH higher surge ratings than there "rated" power. For example, cheap 1500 watt inverters only seem to "surge" to 1800, but the better ones will "surge" to 3000 (though that still wouldn't do any good if the breakers in the outlets pop).

Keep it coming, please,

Bimmer

[PA PATRIOT]

The fuse was 20amp and not blow and I just checked the inverter its 1800 normal output and no surge is listed. I have not idea why it didn't work as the inverter was double the listed power needs of the Frig, maybe the extension cord was to long at 15 feet, we had the SUV pulled right up to the kitchen window and could go no shorter on the cord.

[Bimmer]

The fuse was 20amp and not blow and I just checked the inverter its 1800 normal output and no surge is listed. I have not idea why it didn't work as the inverter was double the listed power needs of the Frig, maybe the extension cord was to long at 15 feet, we had the SUV pulled right up to the kitchen window and could go no shorter on the cord.

I still don't get it. You mean nothing happened at all?

Does the inverter work at all? Did you try something that would draw less current (like a lamp, or a night-light?)?

I'm confused,

Bimmer

[HAMMERDROP]

I am only experienced with a generator 7500w. I have spent many weeks a year w/out power due to t-storms or ice. And a generator is bulky somewhat but not really that complicated besides there is dependable comfort in that bulk on stormy nights with trees down everywhere.
It fires up and the lights come on.
Only drawback is you must have sufficient surplus gas and oil.
Other than that is a life saver IMO.

Michael

[Bimmer]

I get it, Hammerdrop...

Santa brought me a Generac 3250!

UPS smashed it, so it's going back, but I really, really like the idea of having it here...

I cleared out some stuff in the garage to make room for it, ordered a couple gas cans, and I've already read the owners manual (I did that before I unboxed it totally).

Bimmer

[whosyourdaddy]

Hi all,

I'm trying to figure out an emergency source of electricity.

This would be for the occasional power outage, SHTF, or TEOTWAWKI.

I want to be able to run at least my fridge and/or gas furnace's blower, so I figure I need at least 1,750-2,000 watts.

I'm 35 years old, and I want something that will last me the rest of my natural life (40+ years).

I'm looking at generators, and a decent 3,250 Generac runs $450. Downside: they're expensive, bulky, and relatively complicated.

I'm also looking at power inverters (to run off one of my cars), and 2,000 watts runs $200 or so.

I don't have any problem storing enough gasoline to feed either of these options for weeks and weeks.

Any thoughts?

Bimmer

Bimmer,
I recently posted on the generator forum but I will give you my two cents anyway. Spend the money and get a good diesel generator. There are several options to look at with all the military surplus stuff coming back. I have been in the construction biz since '88 and have personally smoked 4 of the gas generators that you would commonly see on a job site. They run at 3600 rpm's
and typically last a few hundred hrs. If you are looking for long haul equipment go diesel. They usually run at 1800 rpms and burn considerably less fuel which by the way will store for years if treated properly. You will get thousands of hrs of useage instead of hundreds. I purchased a diesel genset [Lister] off of ebay for $1200 a couple of years back. This is a very simple[ but not exactly portable] unit that is designed for remote locations. The generator was used with 300 hrs which is minimal for a diesel. I see several military diesel gensets that are in the 3-5 kw range that would be fairly easy to handle if weight and portability are your concerns.

[Bimmer]

Bimmer,
I recently posted on the generator forum but I will give you my two cents anyway. Spend the money and get a good diesel generator. There are several options to look at with all the military surplus stuff coming back. I have been in the construction biz since '88 and have personally smoked 4 of the gas generators that you would commonly see on a job site. They run at 3600 rpm's
and typically last a few hundred hrs. If you are looking for long haul equipment go diesel. They usually run at 1800 rpms and burn considerably less fuel which by the way will store for years if treated properly. You will get thousands of hrs of useage instead of hundreds. I purchased a diesel genset [Lister] off of ebay for $1200 a couple of years back. This is a very simple[ but not exactly portable] unit that is designed for remote locations. The generator was used with 300 hrs which is minimal for a diesel. I see several military diesel gensets that are in the 3-5 kw range that would be fairly easy to handle if weight and portability are your concerns.

Well, this is interesting, but if you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that I've already got a gasoline generator...

In any case, I don't doubt that diesels are better, but I don't need long haul equipment, and a gas generator is better for me.
They're much less expensive (the Generac was $425, brand new, shipped), and I don't want to have to store another type of fuel (both my cars and my lawnmower are gasoline-powered).

Bimmer

[cannarella]

The problem with inverters is that not all are true sine wave so some electric motors will not run well on them. Couldn't tell you the physics behind it but I know in the marine aquarium hobby everyone uses generators instead of inverters.

If you want a good inverter look at Tripplite models. They have all sorts and are made for the long run.

Have you considered getting a transfer switch so you don't have to run extension cords everywhere? They hook right into the house wiring at the electrical panel and are relatively easy to install by you or an electrician depending on the area you are in and the codes. With a 5000W generator you could run about 6-8 circuits depending on their load. I just put one in for the yearly ice storms we have here in GA and I didn't want to lose my aquarium... Since we have natural gas heat, hot water, and cooking I was able to get 2 bedrooms and baths, kitchen, family room, fish tank, and heat easily running on 5000W and tested it. I am considering getting a propane conversion kit so it can run dual fuel. Since I am off a main trunk I am anticipating only a 48 hour outage max. Most we have had is 10 so far. I have my generator for convenience.

If you keep your eye out after the winter you can probably upgrade your generator to a 5000W or 7500W pretty inexpensively. Something with a twist lock to hookup to a transfer switch will go a long way during extended outages.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[Bimmer]

The problem with inverters is that not all are true sine wave so some electric motors will not run well on them. Couldn't tell you the physics behind it but I know in the marine aquarium hobby everyone uses generators instead of inverters.

Just so that we're clear: most generators and inverters are "modified sine wave," and the problem is with running electronics, not with running electric motors.

Some generators and inverters are "true sine wave," and they're much better for running electronics, but they're also typically FAR more expenisive.
Since I'm most interested in the furnace (and to a lesser extent, the fridge) I really just need a modified sine wave.


Have you considered getting a transfer switch so you don't have to run extension cords everywhere?

Yep, I've thought of this, but I'm renting my home, so I don't want to do anything to it...

The other idea I've heard is to "backfill" a circuit by throwing its breaker (to cut it off from the rest of the house and from grid) and then plugging the generator into an outlet.

Now that I'm all set up I bet the power won't go out here for 40 years...

Bimmer

[cannarella]

Just so that we're clear: most generators and inverters are "modified sine wave," and the problem is with running electronics, not with running electric motors.

Some generators and inverters are "true sine wave," and they're much better for running electronics, but they're also typically FAR more expenisive.
Since I'm most interested in the furnace (and to a lesser extent, the fridge) I really just need a modified sine wave.


Yea, I am not 100% sure on how this works. I know that in my aquarium forum the modified sine wave is discouraged for pumps and other equipment if possible. Some pumps won't even start on modified sine wave power. From what I Googled about modified sine wave versus true sine wave the true sine wave is much more preferred for longer life on the equipment. This is not from experience but from what EEs are saying over there. I can only take it at the value of the text on the screen. Still I think you are better off with the generator. Be sure to put some stabil in it and when you are going to store for a while kill the gas from the tank to run the carb dry to eliminate it getting gummed up.


The other idea I've heard is to "backfill" a circuit by throwing its breaker (to cut it off from the rest of the house and from grid) and then plugging the generator into an outlet.


That is dangerous, but I have heard of people doing that also.

[Bimmer]

YBe sure to put some stabil in it and when you are going to store for a while kill the gas from the tank to run the carb dry to eliminate it getting gummed up.

Don't worry, I get that. I've got enough gasoline burners and I spend enough months of year overseas that I buy Sta-Bil by the 32oz jug. So far, I've never had an engine fail to start when I got home...

QUOTE=cannarella;532789]That is dangerous, but I have heard of people doing that also.[/QUOTE]

Please explain... I honestly don't see the danger.

You mean that there's a danger that I could fry my household wiring by running the generator's output through an outlet?
The generator's plugs have 13 amp breakers, which isn't any more than a microwave, a blow drier, or a space heater draw. Nevermind what people run through power strips, again plugged into normal outlets. If household outlets can hold up to those, then they should be able to handle 13 amps coming in from my generator, right?

Bimmer

[cannarella]

Please explain... I honestly don't see the danger.

You mean that there's a danger that I could fry my household wiring by running the generator's output through an outlet?
The generator's plugs have 13 amp breakers, which isn't any more than a microwave, a blow drier, or a space heater draw. Nevermind what people run through power strips, again plugged into normal outlets. If household outlets can hold up to those, then they should be able to handle 13 amps coming in from my generator, right?

Bimmer

The main danger is feeding the power grid that could injure line workers, but you already mentioned you would kill the main breaker to prevent that.

I am impressed by those that use power strips to feed other power strips... :)

The other issue you may run into is which leg of power the things are you want to run. If they are all on the same hot lead you will only be able to use half the wattage of the generator since the the plugs split the available wattage in half. Just trying to help you aviod some of the pains I went through.

[Bimmer]

The other issue you may run into is which leg of power the things are you want to run. If they are all on the same hot lead you will only be able to use half the wattage of the generator since the the plugs split the available wattage in half. Just trying to help you aviod some of the pains I went through.

I thought about this, but it would probably be enough to power two circuits, the furnace/garage, and the kitchen (inc. fridge).

You're right about cutting the capacity of the generator in half. I haven't tried this yet (I'm still waiting for another un-smashed generator to arrive), but I've read that the 13 amp breakers basically make this 3250-watt generator a 2x 1500 watt generator, because nothing drawing more than 1500 watts can be plugged in.

Bimmer

[the Bamster]

I,m a lineman and own my own bucket truck on it i have an old onan generator. This onan has run for years on end with very little upkeep. The genset supplies power and hydraulics to the boom. There ez to rebuild and run and run and run .
They can be had used on ebay for the price of a much lesser animal and many run on natural gas. I have one in my basement "watercooled", runs on nat gas or petrol, electric start, and very,very reliable. It ran for two weeks without a hickup during a ice storm here in KY. last year.

[Bimmer]

In the meantime, I got an unsmashed generator and got it set-up... grounding wire, exhaust vent, pass-through for cables.

It started on the first pull, and I plugged in my furnace and 'fridge, and they both ran flawlessly. I'm ready!

The power's gone out twice in the last three weeks, though only for an hour at a time.

Bimmer

[cannarella]

In the meantime, I got an unsmashed generator and got it set-up... grounding wire, exhaust vent, pass-through for cables.

It started on the first pull, and I plugged in my furnace and 'fridge, and they both ran flawlessly. I'm ready!

The power's gone out twice in the last three weeks, though only for an hour at a time.

Bimmer

Congrats

[762xIan]

The main danger is feeding the power grid that could injure line workers, but you already mentioned you would kill the main breaker to prevent that.

Doing this does NOT take the place of installing a transfer switch and the safety it provides. True, the 2 "hot" lines going to your house are connected to the main. You open the main and you are disconnected from the grid and all is OK right?

Unfortunately this is wrong, many people forget about the neutral. If there is a ground or if something is miswired on your end, the potential exists to send voltage back to the grid and fry a lineman through the neutral.

[Bimmer]

Doing this does NOT take the place of installing a transfer switch and the safety it provides. True, the 2 "hot" lines going to your house are connected to the main. You open the main and you are disconnected from the grid and all is OK right?

Unfortunately this is wrong, many people forget about the neutral. If there is a ground or if something is miswired on your end, the potential exists to send voltage back to the grid and fry a lineman through the neutral.

You're right. I gave up this idea.

I set up my generator totally independently of the household wiring. I put a grounding rod in my yard, and I'm running extension cords and power strips in case of emergency.

Bimmer