Beyond .308 - Implications for Precision Magnums

[Gutshot John]

To set parameters: .50BMG rifles aren't where I want to be going. I'm learning Precision Rifle on an SPS and while I like the availability of parts and the ubiquitous maintainability of .308 for the weight involved I feel like there are better options in terms of precision rifle caliber.

While I'd like to keep the self-maintainable quality of a .308 in my limited experience and training I've determined that a semi-auto .308 really can do most of the things a bolt sniper gun can do and that for the time/effort/expense of a custom precision bolt-gun, I think I'd rather go with something with a bit more punch when I move beyond my SPS training wheels and also begin handloading.

The two most obvious choices are .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua. The former is relatively affordable/available but the latter delivers some especially impressive results at distance.

With handloading the cost of .338 is less daunting and I also seem to remember hearing that .300 Win Mag barrels don't last as long as .338 but I'm not sure I can quantify that.

Is my thinking flawed?

What is missing from the equation? What else should I consider?

Given the nature of precision rifles are there other options that lend themselves to greater maintainability?

[RyanB]

7mm is much better than .30.

[jpipes]

I was in your shoes, and opted for a 6.5x47L rather than a larger magnum. With 123 Scenars at 2950 FPS, I am right at about 1.1 mils to 300 yards with excellent accuracy. I will be testing out to 600 and 1k this weekend. According to my calculations, I should be right around 7.9 mils to 1k and still be close to 1500 fps.

Really, any good 6.5 should do you well with less recoil, better barrel life, and similar ballistics to the 300 winmag. If you are wanting to go for more "punch", I would go 7wsm and not look back. Good luck.

Josh

[tylerw02]

jpipes hit the nail on the head.

The "magnums" are no longer needed with the introduction of efficient projectiles for the smaller bore rifles. We now have bullets for 6.5mm and 7mms with BCs well in excess of .600. They can be launched as fast as or faster than lower BC projectiles used in the .30s, burning less powder and producing less recoil.

I personally own a 6.5-284 Norma, a .260 Remington, and I'm in the process of building a 6.5x47 Lapua. I plan to spec the throat for 130 gr Berger VLDs. That should beat 190 gr .300 Win Mag loads to and beyond 1,000 yards. The introduction of new powders like RL17 may really expand the possibilities. I've managed 700 yard plus kills with my 6.5-284. It produces tame enough recoil I can spot my on kills and my dope to 1k is less than 25 MOA with a 28" bbl.

For a non-handloader, match grade ammunition is available for the 6.5 Creedmoore that will match .300 Win Mag trajectory for about a buck a round.

7mm cartridges can offer even more than the 6.5s with even higher BC projectiles like the 168 and 180 gr VLDs. However this will be at the cost of recoil. The 7mm WSM has proven a real long-range winner. I personally hunt with a precision rifle in 7mm---.280 Rem AI.

[Gutshot John]

Just so it's clear intention was that if you're going the route of a custom precision bolt gun, increase the range and capability of the single shot well beyond 1000 yards without having to go to a .50.

[jpipes]

Define "well beyond 1000 yards".

If you are looking at the .300 winmag, then a slew of 6.5's come very close to 300 winmag performance with significantly less powder, recoil, and barrel burning. To me, that's a win/win.

[tylerw02]

Just so it's clear intention was that if you're going the route of a custom precision bolt gun, increase the range and capability of the single shot well beyond 1000 yards without having to go to a .50.

There is nothing a .50 BMG can do that something else can't do better besides massive energy. If you're actually needing that, I wouldn't suspect you'd be asking questions here.

Look into cartridges like the .338 Edge with 300 gr Lapuas. There is word of a new Berger 300 gr VLD coming out with a BC of nearly 1.00 that will be the cat's meow.

There are guys taking 6.5-284s and 7mm WSMs to beyond 1500 yards quite consistently.

Long story short....big 6.5s, 7mms, and .338s can get you to and beyond 1500 if you do your work. Forget the .50s ;)

[jpipes]

A good "in between" of the 300 winmag and the 338 is a 7 wsm stoked with 180 bergers or similar. I would still rather have a good 6.5 over a 300 winmag, or a good 7wsm over a .338 Lapua.

[Gutshot John]

Define "well beyond 1000 yards".

1500-1800 yards should not only be readily doable but a round that delivers decent energy beyond 1200 as well.

The 7mmWSM is an interesting option I hadn't really considered since I thought it was comparable to 300 win mag which I was really shying away from except as a commonly used magnum round with a lot of data. The 6.5 options might need some consideration.

[Jack-O]

The 300 WM really looks good for a variety of reasons when you do some math:

-the new Black hills military sniper load in 220gr matches the ballistics of the 338 Lapua 250gr
-Match grade ammo can be had for $1.50 per round
-Steyr makes a very nice 300WM sniper with removable 8 round mags and a chrome lined bore. Service life should be significantly improved. Price is very attractive at under $2k as well.
-if things got dodgy for some reason you can always go down to the hardware store and find some 300WM ammo. Try that with a 338 Lapua or 6.75x278.4 or something similar. IOW, it passes the "common caliber" test.
-reloading components are widely available, affordable, and the .308 diameter gives a LOT of options for projectiles. More than any other caliber actually.


The 7mm Magnum has a lot going for it trajectory wise. It's fairly common too, but not as flexible.


Just some thoughts.:cool:

[RyanB]

I can buy .338 Lap locally. Handloaded the cost of .338 and .300 might even be a wash, considering the barrel life of the .300 is 1/2 that of the .338, and Lap brass is available in .338 but I would be using Norma for a .300. The 220gr SMK might match the 250 in a .338 but the VLD .338 offerings coming online now won't be matched in a .300. Also there are the issues inherent in belted cases to consider.

My thought is that if I wanted a flat shooting cartridge I would get a 6.5 of some flavor. If I wanted to lay the hurt on something large (car, elk, deer) at long range, I want a BIG bullet.

But that's my opinion from the cheap seats.

[03humpalot]

I love these threads.

What do you intend to do with the rifle? Is it gonna be shot on ranges off a shooting mat, or humped through the sticks to kill something?

If your intended usage of the stick is shooting past 1500 meters then there are only a few viable choices unless you like spending all your free time fireforming cases and looking for components. A lot of guys are smacking shit with .338 Lapua these days and if i was humping the rifle all over thats probably where i would have gone.

The .300 Winmag...yeah not when i can get a .338 with longer range and barrel life. If you are a reloader and already stock .30 caliber bullets then that may make sense to you, for me i dont feel like having a gun down every couple of thousand rounds.


Factory .338 Lapua ammo is as expensive as ****in .408 Cheytac ammo. When i was debating all of this for myself and decided i wanted to start playing around past 1 klick,and then that turned into 2 klicks on my own dime there were two viable choices capable of repeatedly making first round hits ...the .408 or .50BMG shooting AMAX.

Now there is the .375/.408 which outclasses the .408 by a long shot and thats what i would buy these days if i was starting over.
I own 1 of each now and both guns/cartridges are capable of smoking sub MOA targets to 2.3 klicks.

Recoil gets brought up a lot...IMHO guys need to man the **** up. If you want to play at ELR range recoil is part of the game...deal with it.

[Gutshot John]

I'm a civilian so this is for fun, hunting really big game (the four legged kind) out west, target shooting mostly with some rifle training as well but I don't know about strictly off the mat. It should be comparatively portable.

I see .338 for ~ $5-7/round which seems pretty reasonable to start collecting some brass and at least you can find the stuff.

[Jack-O]

From what I can tell, the 300WM cant be as hard on barrels as is being assumed here. several points make a huge difference...

1- keeping velocities below 3000 FPS like with the 220gr and even 190gr SMK loads should extend life of the throat significantly.
2-chrome lining bore can also extend life 2-3x over standard SS or Chrome Moly barrels without a significant reduction in accuracy
3- add the two features above and you should be looking at usable barrel life of 6000-10000 rounds.
4- Most civilians wont wear out a barrel while they own it, but they will have to buy ammo. It's really hard to pay 2-3x as much for a 338 and tell me you get twice the barrel life and that somehow saves you money or something.

Math. Based on current prices at my store right now:

338 lapua 300 match - $3/round
300 WM 190 match - $1.50/ round

assuming a 4000 round barrel life and new ammo not reloading....

338 lap costs $12,000
300WM costs $6000

savings of $6000 by shooting 300WM over 338. Should be enough for a whole new sniper setup including scope.

Lets assume that lapua gets 6000 rounds barrel life and winmag gets 2000 round

6000 rnds of 338 - $ 18,000
300 wm $ 9000
300 wm rebarrel x2 @ $1000 per barrel - $2000

net difference 300 wm $7000 savings (enough to buy 2 more barrels and 3000+ rounds)


Caveat's
-with reloading the game gets much closer, but when you plug in more realistic numbers, there is still not a real advantage for the 338 financially.
-338 has better ballistics and more capability.


Now back to some reality checkage...

What kind of things can I even identify at 1500+ yards?

How much of your projected mission requirements will you even need 1000+ hit capability on targets?

Seriously you are telling me you can do all the math and have the skill and ability to see to make hits on people at that 1500+ range?

When would you even need to do that kind of thing?

Wouldnt you be better served by doing some stalking?

Wouldn't adding the anti materiel of the 50cal be even better at that point?


I'm not dogging any one elses choices, but when I went looking for a setup I started on the expensive and "ballistically superior" end. Then one day I wanted to shoot a 200 round match and I couldnt scrape together enough loaded ammo from my collection and cleaning out all the stores in town for less than $800. It seemed like a lot to pay for an afternoon of shooting and testing. Further the brass alone for the cartridge (30-378) was $40 per 20.

Suddenly a bulb went on and I decided that a gun that I could afford to shoot and train with was better than a gun I couldnt afford to shoot with better ballistics. 8)

[03humpalot]

Jack-O

You have some valid points. Most people will never wear out a barrel. However,comma;), some of us do.

The ELR realm is an expensive one to get into. To answer a few of your questions- Yes you can identify targets past 1500 meters and kill them.

Math...get with the 21st century dude...Hint; a decent PDA running any number of modern ballistics programs.

As in all shooting determining range to target is the big deal and VERY crucial at ELR distances. Thats a big expenditure in this realm,LRF that can range that far(Im still working on getting one).

Believe me im a ****ing RHA-Tard and my dumb ass can/has/and will continue to in the future smokecheck SUB MOA targets past 2 klicks.

To answer your "Why would you even need to do that", well...because i can,and its a challenge. A .mil Sniper humping an ELR system..yeah i hear ya,call in a ****in JDAM.

I have a hill 1900 meters off my front porch that i want to kill an elk on while drinking beer when im stateside...its been an expensive mission to date.

To me, when i was first getting in this game i wanted performance at extended range above all things and i purchased accordingly. Like already stated,evaluate your mission and buy accordingly.

[Jack-O]

03hump,
when you get back, GAry MArbut of Montana State Shooting Association runs a monthly long range shoot up near Missoula during the spring and summer. It's a great opprotunity to get out and shoot some stuff out to maybe 800-1000 yards. I got smoked with my 308 and underpreparedness. It wont happen again. They are a lot of fun, it'd be great to meet you at one of them.

http://www.mtssa.org/

http://www.marbut.com/Rifle/

[03humpalot]

Jack-O,
you bet. While i try to avoid Missoula and the hippies it attracts like the plague im always looking for new places/guys to shoot with. If i can locate a place to really stretch the .50 and .408 you have an open invitation to shoot them as well.

I was a nonbeliever as well until i got some training on the systems and it opened my eyes to what is actually possible with those systems.
Take care,
Buck

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

1,500 - 1,800

Get the .338. Everything will be a little more expensive but it offers more in end *if* you really intend to shoot long.

I have a GAP .300WM with a Rock Creek Barrel and shoot a 210 Berger VLD over 72 grn of RE 22 @ 2,825 fps. I hope to get 1,500 - 2k rounds out of the barrel. I see no reason to eat the barrel of this gun for anything less than 800 yrds and have been mainly shooting it between 1,000 and 1,600.

When I was in the same boat I too was lured in by the lower costs of the .300 WM. In hindsight I wish I would have gotten a .338LP. I can lob them into 2k with a .300WM and have done so, but its a big rainbow. A .338LP is a great compromise caliber without having to go to a .375 CT or a .408 CT. Depending on atmospheric conditions a .338 LP will get you out to mid 2k. There are also some better projectiles due out soon for the .338LP that may increase this.

Good luck

[Scrounger]

I agree with 03humpalot and Mozambeek, get the .338. But I like the newer 338 Norma Magnum which shoots the 300SMK(The standard 338Lapua uses a 250gr bullet). Only factory loaded ammo cost $5-7 you can handload the stuff for about $3 a round. It is a little smaller than the Lapua but is more efficient and has less recoil but also outperforms the Lapua by a slight margin with a bullet that is 50grains heavier. Its relativily new so info is not quite as available for it as Lapua, but it is getting there. Full size rifle and scope setup weighs in at around 17-18pounds, which is considerably lighter that a 50 would be. I got mine for Elk hunting, and humped all around Colorado last year for the week long elk season with no problems other than the usual ones coming from sea level to approx 7500 elevation:D. Check it out.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I started with 308win moved to the 260 rem and then to 300 win mag I still shoot them all but next step is a 338. But not that Lapua shit its to big for me Im goiing with the 338 EDGE its a 300 RUM necked up to 338 you get over 100fps more from the 300RUM case than you will get from the 338RUM case. Seat some 300g SMK's and you got an 1800yrd deer gun or a 2000yrd man killer.

The best part for me is you get close to Lapua performance at half the cost and you can build a repeter on a rem long action.

[DMR]

U.S. Army Sgt. Patrick Polley, of Chatfield, Minn. and Spc. Jonathan
Perrell of Walnut, Calf., with the 3rd Squadron, 71st Cavalry Regiment's
Sniper team were also awarded for their efforts during a firefight, Sept. 7.
According to U.S. Army Capt. Kamil Sztalkoper, commander, Headquarters and
Headquarters Troop, 3-71 CAV, Perrell, who is the spotter for his team, and
his shooter, Polley, successfully eliminated a target who was 1,696 meters
away.

"We were already engaged with the enemy and noticed six more insurgents on a
hill," added the shooter, who was on an over watch position covering
Soldiers of Troop C. "We saw that one of them was carrying a
Rocket-propelled Grenade, and we took the shot. It's one of the longest
shots recorded with this rifle."

The MK-13 Sniper Rifle is estimated to have an effective range of only 1,200
meters.

"Having General Terry here to present us our awards is exciting and a huge
honor," added Perrell."

http://www.taskforcemountain.com/top-stories/3737-new-division-commander-vis