View Full Version : DPMS LR308 vs. Rem 700
I am contemplating my next gun purchase and I think I want to get a .308 based rifle. I am interested in the DPMS Panther LR308(basic model with the 24" stainless bull barrel) or the Rem 700 package from Sniper Central(http://www.snipercentral.com/rementrypack.phtml). My budget for the gun is around 1200 which puts both of these guns in that territory. I know with the DPMS I would have to pick up a scope, which isnt a huge deal. I already have a bi-pod so I would just have to get a mount for the DPMS. This gun will be used for range use as well as hunting(possibly).
I have read of two issues with the DPMS gun: the gas block and the mags. From what I have read the gas block on them is kinda crappy and does not seal up causing the gun to short stroke. I have not really read of a fix for this, but I am still researching it. The second is the mag issue in that the follower was basically causing the rounds to be rammed into the feed ramp instead of angling it up the feed ramp causing jamming. Supposedly DPMS has fixed this issue. There are also the PMag's supposedly coming out that will work with this gun also and fix the issue.
As far as the Rem 700 package from Sniper Central, it looks GTG and I have seen it recommended a few times on here. If I went that route, what upgrades should I look at getting? Different scope? Different stock?
Littlelebowski
11-30-09, 12:31
My DPMS LR308 cut down to 21.75" works quite well. Do you want maximum accuracy or a semi auto?
Do you want maximum accuracy or a semi auto?
Well, honestly I dont know. I have a hard time believe that a semi-auto gun is going to be any less accurate than a bolt gun(especially in my hands). I know some people will ridicule me for saying that, but I just dont see how its not possible. Either gun will out shoot me, I am fairly confident in that.
I think the Rem 700 package I posted is setup pretty well out of the box where as the DPMS gun will need about $300-500 more into it before its ready to go. I also think the Rem 700 platform has much more aftermarket support currently than the 308 AR platform has in case I want to change something up later on.
My uncle who is a SWAT sniper swears by his Rem 700 in .308.
There is just something about the LR308 that has me salivating, much more so than a Rem 700 bolt gun.
Littlelebowski
11-30-09, 12:51
Like I said, the 700 will outshoot the AR but not by much. "Setting up" my AR involved installing a match trigger, a scope (Pride Fowler), and bipod. It's sub .75 MOA with FGMM 168.
The reasons you'd go with the AR is semi auto repeater ability and the possibility of them being banned.
Accuracy wise, the 700 will out perform the DPMS at very long ranges (800m and out). This being because it is a blot gun and the lack of moving parts while firing. Both choices are going to crack a Kool Aide smile on the range IMHO. Take a look at the distances you will be shooting at and if you live in an area like me where you are limited to 100 and 200 yard ranges, and can not hunt with semi-auto than it's a no brainer to go with the DPMS.
Littlelebowski
11-30-09, 13:49
At my brother's long range shooting course, we had a stock DPMS LR308 run right out to 1K yards along with the 700s. The gas guns run out of range when the barrel is chopped below 20" such as the 18" SASS.
Accuracy wise, the 700 will out perform the DPMS at very long ranges (800m and out). This being because it is a blot gun and the lack of moving parts while firing. Both choices are going to crack a Kool Aide smile on the range IMHO. Take a look at the distances you will be shooting at and if you live in an area like me where you are limited to 100 and 200 yard ranges, and can not hunt with semi-auto than it's a no brainer to go with the DPMS.
Most ranges are 100 yards around here. I think there is one range that is 500 yards. I would like to be able to use it out to 1000 yards+ if I ever find a range that long. I can hunt with a semi-auto, just has a 10+1 restriction on it so I would order at least 1 10 round mag.
At my brother's long range shooting course, we had a stock DPMS LR308 run right out to 1K yards along with the 700s. The gas guns run out of range when the barrel is chopped below 20" such as the 18" SASS.
I would be getting the LR-308 model with the 24" stainless bull barrel. I would most likely leave it as is unless I got it threaded for a brake of some kind. I believe I read that the .308 round needs at least 20" of barrel to burn all the powder. The Rem700 package has a 26" barrel, which again, I would leave as is except for possibly threading for a brake.
I'm pondering the same choice, except with an upper from www.ar15performance.com What is keeping me on the 700 side of the fence (at the moment) is the $175 trigger and the $175 scope mount needed for the semi-auto. Also, the 700 is a standard platform which I'd pass down someday, whereas the SCAR or somebody is likely to come along within a few years and make me wish I had waited on the SA front.
joshua79109
12-21-09, 07:55
The intended use should drive the answer.
If there is not a defined intended use, then in my opinion the semi auto covers more uses than a bolt gun.
Get the bolt action if you want maximum precision. But if you're not planning on shooting past 800-900yds then the DPMS will do just fine, personal preference at that point. However, if you plan on competing, the bolt gun might be a better choice since some matches only allow bolt guns.
Get the bolt gun. The DPMS is an okay rifle for hog hunting, but will not be as consistently accurate as a bolt gun. We had a few DPMS's on our team and they have all gone down with broken parts, one of them got sent in 4x before DPMS built a new upper for it. The cold bore shots would drift around like crazy too.
I read somewhere at Brian Enos that the semi auto platform is 200 fps slower than bolt, and no one contradicted that...is it logical?
I read somewhere at Brian Enos that the semi auto platform is 200 fps slower than bolt, and no one contradicted that...is it logical?
That's about what we were seeing. It's logical in the case of the DPMS DI system, since there is a lot of gas bled off before the bullet exits the bore.
That's an astounding velocity loss. It certainly makes me think twice about bullet performance expectations for hunting. Perhaps due to carbine length gas with the 18"? Maybe it's a similar story with the rifle-length and 24"... I wonder if it's less of a difference with companies which use mid- or rifle length with 18 and 20", since the port would be closer to the muzzle.
That's complete bullshit. You don't lose velocity from bleeding gas off for cycling. Bore diameter and quality as well as chamber size have a lot more to do with it.
I wouldn't buy a DPMS product. I do have an FN SPR and an AI AW in the mail right now, and I wouldn't hesitate to try a LaRue or KAC semi, either.
geez, I hate to do it, but this may be the easiest answer to ZDL:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=378850
I wouldn't be surprised to hear the semi loses a few FPS to the boltie, but 200 sounded extreme. Anyone have data?
That's complete bullshit. You don't lose velocity from bleeding gas off for cycling. Bore diameter and quality as well as chamber size have a lot more to do with it.
I wouldn't buy a DPMS product. I do have an FN SPR and an AI AW in the mail right now, and I wouldn't hesitate to try a LaRue or KAC semi, either.
I have found a loss of MV with a gas gun compared to a bolt gun of equivalent bbl length. When I turn off the gas system, the MV goes up, almost matching the bolt gun.
Not like I have any actual training and experience though, so that's probably complete B.S. :rolleyes:
Can any of you continue to expound on your experiences with 308 AR platform rifles?
Look at my earlier post.
NMBigfoot02
12-22-09, 19:01
In Understanding Firearm Ballistics by Robert Rinker, he states that a SA M1A operated with the gas system deactivated will produce a drop in the muzzle velocity of 10-15 fps.
It's probably not unreasonable to expect a similar drop between the DPMS and a bolt gun, assuming equal length barrels.
~15 fps loss is understandable but ~200fps loss will only be caused from a difference in barrel length. ~200fps loss might be possible when comparing an 18" barrel to a 26" barrel.
Reviving this thead, since a friend of mine has asked me about the Remington R25 (which AFAIK is DPMS) versus the 700. I went with an AR-15 in 6.8spc, and then a 700 in 308. I just wasn't sold on the AR-10 types. However we've now seen a 20" R25 for $850. That seems like a good deal for a starter, especially since there are now 308 p-mags. That's basically what you'd pay for an SPS in a decent stock.
Further thoughts on this comparison? Would the Rem/DPMS still have plenty to "fix" to be trustworthy? Or is the cost issue now less relevant?
I told him $850 new retail sounded like a great deal for an AR-type .308, if it runs right.
Apparently Remington puts a free float and tolerable trigger on it, it's 20" with rifle length gas...
Whaddya think? Does this price make the R25 a game changer?
Cagemonkey
02-04-10, 20:06
I had a DPMS LR308. It shot 5/8" 3 shot group @ 100 yds.
Have you put it thru the paces? Any failures?
Gutshot John
02-05-10, 18:04
~15fps? Where do you think it's going to make a difference inside of 800-1000 yards?
Based on W.E.G's numbers (a member of this forum and notorious in the WECSOG/FAL community) you lose ~50fps per inch of barrel loss cutting a 21" barrel down to 16".
Cagemonkey
02-06-10, 18:49
Have you put it thru the paces? Any failures?
I considered my LR308 to be basically a DMR. I shot only Fed 168 gn gold metal threw it. I never had any feeding issues or stoppages, but it was shot in a low intensity environment. I probably only put 250 rds threw it.
On the weight issue, compare the 24" DPMS versus the 26" 700P. Both are free floating, and the prices are pretty close. AR-type is 10.25 lbs, and boltie is 9. Shave a few inches off the barrel and the difference widens.
Is 1.5 lbs a reasonable estimate of the weight difference for the platforms?
ETA: R25 claims 7.75 and the LTR 7.5... only 0.25 diff? I suppose the r25 is a much lighter contour.
I would get the bolt bun. It will remain extremely accurate and tight at longer distances. I use my bolt gun for extreme accuracy and my semi for faster follow up shots if the competition dictates for it. Like everyone is stating it depends on your use.
if your needs dictate 1 accurate well placed shot the Rem is the way to go, but if your situation dictates faster follow up shots go DPMS but both are accurate.
Note too that you need more accessories for DPMS to mount optics, bipod and/or sling. You need to find extra high mounts and a bipod adapter for the AR based.
On the bolt gun you can mount the scope pretty close to the bore allowing for more adjustments for long range shots.
My .308 AR-10 had a MV range on par with my 700 VLS, they certainly did NOT differ by 200 fps.
You can have 10 different Remington 700s on a line and see a MV spread of 100 fps. Not all barrels are identical.
So rather than start a completely new thread I thought I'd ask my question here since it's right in this vein.
I have a DPMS LR AP4 that I lucked across at a local store about 4 months ago. I purchased it planning on converting it to a SASS configuration. It's still in the packing grease waiting on any modifications. However, after figuring the costs involved, I figured I'd be money ahead to sell it and just buy an LRT-SASS.
Of course there's a greater than one year waiting list for the SASS. I did find two in stock at a couple places for a little over MSRP.
After doing some research into the optics, I have planned on mounting either a Nightforce 3.4-15X50 Zero Stop F1 or non-F1 scope (haven't decided between the two yet). Except for rings that's basically all the SASS needs. Total cost for the SASS setup I have planned is $3900-4815 based on scope and mount choice.
Then I got wondering if I should go the bolt-gun route instead. After reading many of Demigod's excellent articles I started leaning that way.
Still wanting a .308 (and being a left eye dominant shooter) narrowed my choices in a Rem. 700 considerably: Model 700™ SPS™ Varmint Left Hand. Optics choices were the same. Also to be added would be an Accuracy International Chassis System 2.0 in a left-handed flavor. Total for the bolt gun setup considered would be $3170-3970.
So essentially I can get the top-end bolt gun setup for the same cost as the low-end SASS setup.
The majority of the rifle use will be target shooting out to 425 yards and some weekend sniper matches (thanks to Hoser and the others who make them possible). I would like to do some of the bigger matches but realistically probably wouldn't be doing those more than every other year or so unless I really get bitten by the bug.
So the way I see it I can get a 1000+ yard tack driving bolt gun or a 800ish yard semi-auto for nearly the same money. Either should do fine for my intended purposes though, for me, there is a fun factor associated with the SASS that sways me in that direction. My OCD sways me in the direction of the bolt gun, however.
Therein is my dilemma. Either gun would work for me (I think) and I'm only going to be buying one rifle so don't want to make a mistake.
I'm not expecting an "Oh you should definitely do this," answer but if any of you have been in the similar situation and have been happy with the choice you made, then maybe you could pass along what has made you happy about that decision.
Or maybe the SASS is really a 600 yard gun? Or maybe the AICS would add little benefit to the M700 as made?
Any opinions additional to those already posted in this thread would be appreciated keeping in mind that the DPMS I'm talking about only has an 18" barrel as opposed to the 24" being discussed in this thread.
I guess one other attractive thing about the M700 route is that I could have the rifle and scope without the AICS (which may take awhile to lay my hands on) for just the price of the SASS.
Decisions decisions.
the package you refer to on sniper central comes with a 26 or 20 inch barrell and will be .5 moa at 100 yards. it is a nice package. gap does a precision ar10 for around 2500 dollars. i am going to go with a bolt from sniper central in a 300wm. give them a call
ON THE SNIPER CENTRAL PACKAGE YOU CAN GET THE 308 WITH A 20 INCH BARRELL. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO START SLOBBERING GO TO THE G A PRECISION WEB SITE AND TAKE A LOOK AT THEIR LONG RANGE DPMS. IT IS A FINE WEAPON.
Littlelebowski
03-29-10, 13:59
ON THE SNIPER CENTRAL PACKAGE YOU CAN GET THE 308 WITH A 20 INCH BARRELL. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO START SLOBBERING GO TO THE G A PRECISION WEB SITE AND TAKE A LOOK AT THEIR LONG RANGE DPMS. IT IS A FINE WEAPON.
GEE THANKS
To get back to the topic of weapon choice, I would go with a bolt-action first. It will be cheaper, more accurate and lighter, making it better overall for hunting. I would hate to lug the LR308 out on a hunt, as heavy as that thing is.
As a suggestion, practice and get good with the bolt gun, then, if you want, move to the semi-auto. I think once you get good with the bolt-action, getting a semi-auto .308 would be a good way to challenge yourself.
For example: Say you get to the point to where you can get consistent, tight grouping with a bolt-action. You can then get a semi-auto and work towards getting good grouping with quick follow up shots.
This could progress to putting more quality shots on target quicker than the other guy. :cool: But, if you're happy with getting good groups while target shooting and having solid accuracy(and a lighter gun) while hunting....you may not want to move to a semi-auto .308.
Like I said, the 700 will outshoot the AR but not by much. "Setting up" my AR involved installing a match trigger, a scope (Pride Fowler), and bipod. It's sub .75 MOA with FGMM 168.
The reasons you'd go with the AR is semi auto repeater ability and the possibility of them being banned.
Me too. First year model, 24 inch bull, Vtac forend, PFI fixed 10x....same accuracy result with same ammo.
lethal dose
03-29-10, 17:54
I love the 700s... however, savage makes my favorite bolt gun.
I have some pretty accurate AR ( Noveske , Satern Cut rifle ...even my RRA varmint ! shooting .75MOA groups) . Compared to a stock Rem 700 that statement that you made that you find it hard to believe a bolt gun could be more accurate may be true
Having said that, IMO the ultimate accuracy possible would be higher with a bolt gun. Not too many ways to really tweak the AR compared to your Rem 700
Things you can do as $$ permits .
Start with an aftermarket trigger and buy a decent scope. Start handloading....neck size only !! ( obviously this is not a good idea with an autoloader ). It will suprise you how much better your groups are with carefully prepared handloads.
Then shoot the shit out of the barrel. When it's time you can you can do the following :
Blueprint / true up action
Better barrel with a well cut chamber . You can spend an insane amount of $$ on this. Rem barrels are OK for factory gun...huge improvement with aftermarket
As far as the GA precision ARs I would rather have one of his bolt guns build to a Surgeon or Templar action ( not a fair comparision since you get what you pay for )
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