View Full Version : Need some 9mm advice
Ok so I need a little advice here.
Currently I have a Sig p226; for the most part I like it. I have never had a malfunction of any kind with it, maintenance is very simple and spare parts are pretty readily available.
Now, lately I have been giving a lot of thought to switching over to an MP 9mm or possibly another DAO style handgun. I am mainly thinking about the MP however.
With that in mind here are what I thought were the pros and cons
MP pros:
Grip feels great, very comfortable. A bit skinnier then the Sig and feels a little easier to conceal. Only one trigger pull to learn (this is a huge pro for me, I realize the trigger will probably initially need some after market work). Price and price of magazines. Has a rail for a light. Easy to clean and maintain.
MP cons:
New pistol, so I would need new holsters as well as having to learn a new trigger and any costs associated with trigger work.
Sig pros:
I am familiar with it, already have holsters and plenty of extra magazines. Easy to maintain, and I have never even had so much as one malfunction. Has a light rail. Already has nice night sights on it.
Sig cons:
I hate the DA trigger, SA I am ok with. Reset on the trigger is fairly long. The grip feels a little blocky, and is wider then the MP. It is a little tough to CC. Magazines and other stuff are expensive.
So does anyone have any advice or opinion to offer? If I were to get the MP I would have to sell off the Sig (unfortunately) so having both is out. I have also been considering a HK P30 in LEM but I have not gotten the opportunity to try one yet and price is an issue.
Learning to shoot the gun you have is almost always a better option, in the long run, than buying something new and hoping new gear will solve technique issues.
I am so pleased with my M&P pistols that I bought #6 last weekend. I'll add that my full size 357 is very easy to conceal.
John_Wayne777
12-01-09, 14:35
The advice offered by Todd would be my advice as well. I've done the buy a new handgun thing...a lot. As a result I own or have owned damn near one of everything on the market.
None of it made me a better shooter.
The central question is what your ultimate goal is. If the ultimate goal is just buying another gun, then the M&P is certainly a very nice pistol and would probably serve you well. While Sigs aren't quite what they used to be, they are still great handguns overall and would probably serve you well. If training time and budget is at a premium for you, sticking to a system you already know has some advantages. Finding a system that works better for you also has some advantages. Some shooters find the transition from DA to SA to be a real hindrance...but give them a weapon with a consistent trigger pull from shot to shot and they perform much better. More training would certainly solve that, but I've dealt with people who can't/won't train seriously and thus would be better off skipping the DA/SA guns.
If your goal is a pistol you can conceal more easily so you can be armed more of the time (a legitimate goal), something like an M&P 9C or a Smith & Wesson J frame would be good options.
If, however, your goal is improving your skill and capability with a handgun, forgoing the purchase of another handgun and investing your money into quality training and ammo would be your best possible choice.
I'm with Todd. One thing about classic Sigs is a very smooth and consistant trigger that you just don't get from a stock striker fired pistol. Sure you can have a trigger job done on a striker fired pistol to improve it, but you can do the same to your Sig. Sig also makes a drop in SRT trigger.
I thought like you did on the double action pull until I started to actually do a lot of training with it. It didn't take very long for me to be able to master it and now days when I qualify there is very little difference between my first DA shot and my follow up SA shots. Now I appreciate the additional safety the DA mode offers while still maintaining a state of readiness that only requires me to pull the trigger to get in the fight. Plus, the SA option on the Sig DA/SA is faster than any other trigger type with a similar level of safety.
The M&P is a good firearm too, but in selling your Sig you will be stuck with a weapon that may or may not be to your liking and you've given up something that did work for you.
My opinion as well...buy ammo and shoot your more. Try USPSA, if in your area. Its a great way to practice and learn from better shoters. FWIW.
The advice offered by Todd would be my advice as well. I've done the buy a new handgun thing...a lot. As a result I own or have owned damn near one of everything on the market.
None of it made me a better shooter.
The central question is what your ultimate goal is. If the ultimate goal is just buying another gun, then the M&P is certainly a very nice pistol and would probably serve you well. While Sigs aren't quite what they used to be, they are still great handguns overall and would probably serve you well. If training time and budget is at a premium for you, sticking to a system you already know has some advantages. Finding a system that works better for you also has some advantages. Some shooters find the transition from DA to SA to be a real hindrance...but give them a weapon with a consistent trigger pull from shot to shot and they perform much better. More training would certainly solve that, but I've dealt with people who can't/won't train seriously and thus would be better off skipping the DA/SA guns.
If your goal is a pistol you can conceal more easily so you can be armed more of the time (a legitimate goal), something like an M&P 9C or a Smith & Wesson J frame would be good options.
If, however, your goal is improving your skill and capability with a handgun, forgoing the purchase of another handgun and investing your money into quality training and ammo would be your best possible choice.
All great advice so far.
The ultimate goal is to have a go to hand gun for both cc and open carry as well as night stand duty. The Sig was my first hand gun purchase, I bought it with no real goal other then hey thats a cool gun/ heard it was great. At the time I didn't consider any factors like concealment or trigger etc. Heck I didn't even know there was a difference in triggers. I have since learned tons (clearly).
As far as training goes I know I need more (a lot as the case may be). Most of what I have done so far has been off of the pistol training website or advice more experienced shooters have given me.
I am taking a basic course with a local trainer who is highly regarded in the area in about 2 weeks. With that said budget is always a concern.
I have tried compact hand guns in the past and to be honest hated them. I am a bigger guy (6' 195 lbs or so) and they feel uncomfortable in my hands, almost like I cannot grip them properly if that makes sense.
I do agree that new equipment is almost never the answer, however I am concerned that I am making things a lot more difficult for myself by not having the correct pistol for my intended mission.
In a perfect world I would be able to take several high speed training courses and shoot 1,000 rds. a month but the fact is, at this point in my life, that is just not possible.
Thank you guys so far!
I'm afraid I disagree with the consensus. :(
I had a 226 that I loved. I switched to a Glock as it was lighter, smaller, has the same trigger pull every time and magazine capacity but most importantly I was a better shot with it for some reason.
I also couldn't train myself out of riding the slide release with my thumb on my 226 infrequently, which was very frustrating. Great pistol, just not for me I guess.
That's just my experience.
ROCKET20_GINSU
12-01-09, 17:51
How much muscle memory would you have to "reprogram"?
As you are only talking about switching out one gun I don't think that the transition costs are too bad (forgive me for assuming). If you were going from an entire safe of Sigs, Sig holsters, and sig mags to M&Ps it would be different. The more important factor in my mind is how comfortable you are behind the Sig. Have you fired thousands of rounds over multiple years, or are you a little less ingrained in the manual of arms of the Sig and more open to change and learning something new? If you have alot of muscle memory invested in the 226 and already shoot the Sig extremely well I might err on the side of sticking with the Sig. Also if you primarily carry AIWB, or are issued that pistol in some form, I would probably stick with the Sig also. That said...
I think that the M&P platform has alot going for it:
Very reliable
lots of holster options
integrated rail for lights
Simpler and less bulky as it lacks the decocker
extremely compatible w/ Crimson trace Lasers
Consistent trigger is much easier to learn and shoot IMO
Lower bore Axis (some may argue that this is not a big deal, and they are mostly correct, but since shooting is composed of multiple relatively small inputs every little advantage helps)
Also I don't think you would "need" trigger work on the M&P right from the get go. If I was transitioning over I would familiarize on the stock trigger / grip angle / manual of arms etc. for a 1-2 thousand rounds then go from there.
I definitely think that it is worth the transition cost in time and $$$ to invest in the M&P platform. It offers enough advantages in ease of shooting to justify it in my mind very easily, and the fact that it integrates w/ the CT lasergrips so seamlessly is a huge plus for me as well. I certainly agree that most of shooting is the Shooter, but there is nothing wrong with picking the platform that [B]you[B] run the best. I try not to get sentimental about my gear, if a new pistol came out tomorrow that allowed me to shoot twice as fast, twice as accurately and equally as reliably as my Glock I would definitely take a look. Give the M&P a fair shake and see if your first shot, follow up shot times, and accuracy are better than with the Sig.
GU
Another alternative to consider to ameliorate some of your "cons" with your Sig might be to have either the Sig Custom Shop or a qualified, reputable Sig gunsmith (Bruce Gray/Grayguns comes to mind) perform an action job with a short reset added.
Best, Jon
Alot of good advice here. There is nothing wrong with the Sig you own or 9mm . I prefer a handgun with one trigger pull but if I was issued a Sig I would have no issue with it. Use the money to buy ammo and suport gear for your Sig and train.
How much muscle memory would you have to "reprogram"?
As you are only talking about switching out one gun I don't think that the transition costs are too bad (forgive me for assuming). If you were going from an entire safe of Sigs, Sig holsters, and sig mags to M&Ps it would be different. The more important factor in my mind is how comfortable you are behind the Sig. Have you fired thousands of rounds over multiple years, or are you a little less ingrained in the manual of arms of the Sig and more open to change and learning something new? If you have alot of muscle memory invested in the 226 and already shoot the Sig extremely well I might err on the side of sticking with the Sig. Also if you primarily carry AIWB, or are issued that pistol in some form, I would probably stick with the Sig also. That said...
I think that the M&P platform has alot going for it:
Very reliable
lots of holster options
integrated rail for lights
Simpler and less bulky as it lacks the decocker
extremely compatible w/ Crimson trace Lasers
Consistent trigger is much easier to learn and shoot IMO
Lower bore Axis (some may argue that this is not a big deal, and they are mostly correct, but since shooting is composed of multiple relatively small inputs every little advantage helps)
Also I don't think you would "need" trigger work on the M&P right from the get go. If I was transitioning over I would familiarize on the stock trigger / grip angle / manual of arms etc. for a 1-2 thousand rounds then go from there.
I definitely think that it is worth the transition cost in time and $$$ to invest in the M&P platform. It offers enough advantages in ease of shooting to justify it in my mind very easily, and the fact that it integrates w/ the CT lasergrips so seamlessly is a huge plus for me as well. I certainly agree that most of shooting is the Shooter, but there is nothing wrong with picking the platform that [B]you[B] run the best. I try not to get sentimental about my gear, if a new pistol came out tomorrow that allowed me to shoot twice as fast, twice as accurately and equally as reliably as my Glock I would definitely take a look. Give the M&P a fair shake and see if your first shot, follow up shot times, and accuracy are better than with the Sig.
GU
I am not issued the Sig, just an ordinary civilian. I generally carry IWB at about 4 o'clock.
I think this weekend I will give the M&P a try next to my Sig, see how it feels in direct comparison.
I also am not too concerned with making a transition, while I do have some muscle memory and comfort built up with the Sig I do not think it is enough to cause me any problems were I to switch over to the M&P. I think testing it out with the Sig this weekend will probably give me a better idea on what route I will take.
Thanks so far for all the great advice; I'll keep things updated
My recommendation is to hold off and do your comparison after you've had your lesson from the local pro. Get a solid foundation of what you do well (and what you don't), and then compare that to how you perform with the M&P.
My recommendation is to hold off and do your comparison after you've had your lesson from the local pro. Get a solid foundation of what you do well (and what you don't), and then compare that to how you perform with the M&P.
Ok, sounds like a better idea to me. I'll update after the class on how I felt the SIG did.
Thanks!
I have both of the guns you mention, a P226 and M&P9. actually I have a couple of both and I like both for different reasons.
the P series SIG is a fine weapon and is my first choice for SD both CCW and HD. I begin all my SIG shooting sessions by firing several mags DA one shot and reset. then one shot DA and one shot SA. and then so on...
one thing I think will surprise you is just how quick and accurate that first DA shot can be!
I think somebody famous wrote something about not fearing the DA shot.
or something...
http://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot
I like the striker-fired concept and chose the M&P as the best of the breed. however, IF the distinction can be made, I consider this type of weapon an "offensive" weapon and it is not my first choice for SD. this is due more to the nature of defensive encounters than the type of pistol action and I seem to be in the minority with this view...
I find this thread very funny because I recently just switched from a P226 to an M&P9
Alot of very good points in this thread that I wish were there before I made the switch
I find this thread very funny because I recently just switched from a P226 to an M&P9
Alot of very good points in this thread that I wish were there before I made the switch
So, are you not happy with your switch?
ROCKET20_GINSU
12-02-09, 20:12
My recommendation is to hold off and do your comparison after you've had your lesson from the local pro. Get a solid foundation of what you do well (and what you don't), and then compare that to how you perform with the M&P.
Agree completely, I missed the second post where the OP stating that he was going to a class in 2 wks.
Beat Trash
12-03-09, 15:09
Great advice so far. After attending the scheduled class in two weeks with the Sig 226, I'd try to rent or borrow a M&P to shoot. If you are near a rental range, shoot a M&P along side of your Sig.
Both are good guns. Go with the one that you shoot the best.
[QUOTE=Marcus L.;508649]So, are you not happy with your switch?[/Q
Im more than happy, The similarity between the controls made for a much easier transition. Its going to take me a little while to get used to the trigger but other than that I cannot complain about it at all.
Lots of good info here and you should definitely get some trigger time on the M&P before deciding to switch. It wouldn't be good to spend money and time switching and selling your Sig stuff, only to find you didn't like the M&P as much.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-04-09, 18:21
Left field suggestion- how about a Sig X-5 with the SAO trigger? I love my Sig X-5 Tac. Not as good of a trigger as a 1911, but close. An absolute dirth of holsters though, blade tech OWB the only one I've found.
Can't wait to hear how your class went.
Had the class this morning; took A LOT away from it. We did a little bit of everything including support hand shooting, trigger reset drills, moving drills, it was lots of fun.
Few things that really stuck out for me:
1. The DA trigger was not nearly as bad as I had remembered it (I have been dry firing for at least 15 minutes a day the past two weeks).
2. I need to work more on my trigger control; the Sig felt like it had a fairly long reset which caused me a few problems (short stroked a few times).
3. I need to figure out a way to grip the Sig and not affect the slide lock. Pretty much the entire class I had trouble with the slide not locking back on empty magazines due to my grip.
4. I need to work on support hand shooting, by far my weakest area.
Overall I would say the Sig performed well for me, with a few issues. I would still really like to give a M&P and a P30 a try. My main two concerns are the slide lock issue and the trigger reset. Probably the best thing so far with the Sig is out of the 3-4k rounds I have shot through it I have not had 1 malfunction. Very impressive.
1. The DA trigger was not nearly as bad as I had remembered it (I have been dry firing for at least 15 minutes a day the past two weeks).
The majority of people find they can handle a DA stroke fine with proper instruction and proper practice. Like all choices in pistol actions, it's a series of compromises. You need to work harder to master a TDA gun, but you get the benefit of having a greater safety factor without the need for a manual safety.
2. I need to work more on my trigger control; the Sig felt like it had a fairly long reset which caused me a few problems (short stroked a few times).
The SIG does have a fairly long reset compared to other popular guns like Glock or a 1911. I'm the first to admit that all else being equal a short reset is nice. But the actual impact it has on performance is much less than most people want to believe.
3. I need to figure out a way to grip the Sig and not affect the slide lock. Pretty much the entire class I had trouble with the slide not locking back on empty magazines due to my grip.
Assuming you're right handed, just rotate your right thumb outwards from the gun until it's clearing the lever. Your right thumb will basically rest on the back of your left thumb. You shouldn't be putting pressure on the pistol with your thumbs anyway, so this change to your grip shouldn't impact performance.
4. I need to work on support hand shooting, by far my weakest area.
You and 99.9% of the rest of us. :cool:
It sounds like learning was done!
I'm a huge proponent of the 'classic' SIGs (226, 220, et al) and I had a few of the problems you're currently having.
What Todd said about your thumbs is what I did, and it worked well for me.
Repetition is the key to getting the most out of your pistol in my opinion. Work on dry fire (use snap caps if you're worried) and you will get much faster and smoother with the stock trigger.
For your CCW issue, check out a few good IWB holsters. I'm using a Galco summer comfort at the moment for my 220 and it does an adequate job.
Once I have a bit of extra money I'm going to invest in a VMII (which I've tried and really helps to stabilize the larger pistol), but that may not work as well for you.
Hope this helps!
The majority of people find they can handle a DA stroke fine with proper instruction and proper practice. Like all choices in pistol actions, it's a series of compromises. You need to work harder to master a TDA gun, but you get the benefit of having a greater safety factor without the need for a manual safety.
The SIG does have a fairly long reset compared to other popular guns like Glock or a 1911. I'm the first to admit that all else being equal a short reset is nice. But the actual impact it has on performance is much less than most people want to believe.
Assuming you're right handed, just rotate your right thumb outwards from the gun until it's clearing the lever. Your right thumb will basically rest on the back of your left thumb. You shouldn't be putting pressure on the pistol with your thumbs anyway, so this change to your grip shouldn't impact performance.
You and 99.9% of the rest of us. :cool:
I will give the new grip a try.
I actually do put some pressure onto the side of the gun w/ my thumbs. I take it I should stop doing this? Before I started to do this my shots would consistently land to the left of POA, putting pressure w/ my thumbs was how I balanced things out.
As far IWB holsters right now I have a comp-tac minotaur; just waiting on the replacement body for the Sig (I had it for my 1911, but have decided to no longer carry this).
Putting rightward pressure on the gun with your thumbs to balance whatever leftward pressure you're putting on the gun with your trigger finger or due to over-gripping the gun at the trigger break is a losing proposition in the long term. First, you're just balancing two bad opposing forces, which is going to add error to your accuracy as those forces get applied inconsistently from grip to grip and shot to shot. Second, as your technique improves and gets corrected so that you're no longer applying that rightward force you're going to have the other bad habit -- the leftward pressure from your thumbs -- to overcome.
Putting rightward pressure on the gun with your thumbs to balance whatever leftward pressure you're putting on the gun with your trigger finger or due to over-gripping the gun at the trigger break is a losing proposition in the long term. First, you're just balancing two bad opposing forces, which is going to add error to your accuracy as those forces get applied inconsistently from grip to grip and shot to shot. Second, as your technique improves and gets corrected so that you're no longer applying that rightward force you're going to have the other bad habit -- the leftward pressure from your thumbs -- to overcome.
How would you suggest correcting my form? Would you mind explaining what you mean by over gripping the gun? Thank you for your help so far!
Putting too much pressure on the gun with your strong hand fingers, especially if you add that pressure at the same time you're pressing the trigger, can have an effect like the one you're seeing. So can putting sideways pressure on the trigger, or -- believe it or not! -- your sights could just be off.
Use the Wall Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill) developed by SIG's George Harris. Pay attention to what's happening as you're pressing the trigger. If the front sight starts to move off center, stop and correct it. Be aware of what you're doing with your hands, fingers, etc. Find the points at which you're putting unwanted pressure on the gun.
Had the class this morning; took A LOT away from it. We did a little bit of everything including support hand shooting, trigger reset drills, moving drills, it was lots of fun.
Few things that really stuck out for me:
1. The DA trigger was not nearly as bad as I had remembered it (I have been dry firing for at least 15 minutes a day the past two weeks).
2. I need to work more on my trigger control; the Sig felt like it had a fairly long reset which caused me a few problems (short stroked a few times).
3. I need to figure out a way to grip the Sig and not affect the slide lock. Pretty much the entire class I had trouble with the slide not locking back on empty magazines due to my grip.
4. I need to work on support hand shooting, by far my weakest area.
Overall I would say the Sig performed well for me, with a few issues. I would still really like to give a M&P and a P30 a try. My main two concerns are the slide lock issue and the trigger reset. Probably the best thing so far with the Sig is out of the 3-4k rounds I have shot through it I have not had 1 malfunction. Very impressive.
I had the exact same issue with my Sig and with my shots going to the left on my M&P. What Todd mentioned is absolutely correct.
I found this to be a decent reference as well http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
I had the exact same issue with my Sig and with my shots going to the left on my M&P. What Todd mentioned is absolutely correct.
I found this to be a decent reference as well http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
Alright so yesterday I did the wall drill for a while as suggested, and I think I may have fixed my problem (hopefully).
Used the link provided (thanks a lot btw, great link). It seems I was not putting enough of my finger onto the trigger. I moved my finger so that the trigger sits at about the first "line" on my finger (not sure what its called).
Thanks for the help so far, and I will update the next time I shoot if the solution actually worked at the range.
Got the chance to try out a P30 today. I was extremely impressed. It was the DA/SA version so I can't comment on the LEM trigger I wanted to try but the grip feels amazing. It points very well and comfortable. Its smaller then the Sig but doesn't feel like a compact pistol. I actually liked the mag release as well, thought I wouldn't but it was easy to use and didn't need to alter my grip to drop magazines. The only thing I noticed was there seemed to be some type of burr or notch inside the trigger guard that would rub against my trigger finger when squeezing the trigger; probably not a big deal but something none the less.
Anyways this has me wanting a P30 for carry very badly. I wonder when I will get a chance to check out an LEM one.
You're not imagining the thing in the trigger guard. It's purportedly to prevent the trigger from getting jammed up by thick gloves. Primarily, it seems to irritate people's trigger fingers. I don't notice it anymore, but I've fired a few rounds through my P30 this year getting used to it.
Depending on how you set up an LEM, the trigger pull will feel very similar (or even identical) to the SA stroke on a TDA P30 V2. The only real difference is that the trigger will move all the way forward if you let it. But from a shooting standpoint, it's essentially a SA gun... albeit with a heavier trigger in most configurations.
You're not imagining the thing in the trigger guard. It's purportedly to prevent the trigger from getting jammed up by thick gloves. Primarily, it seems to irritate people's trigger fingers. I don't notice it anymore, but I've fired a few rounds through my P30 this year getting used to it.
Depending on how you set up an LEM, the trigger pull will feel very similar (or even identical) to the SA stroke on a TDA P30 V2. The only real difference is that the trigger will move all the way forward if you let it. But from a shooting standpoint, it's essentially a SA gun... albeit with a heavier trigger in most configurations.
I imagine this burr being one of those things that is noticeable at first but after a while will just fade away.
Does HK still plan to release more of the LEM's to the civilian market? I know you had said in the torture test thread they had planed to put out more in the V. 4 this upcoming year.
Also have you ever had an issue with the slide stop? I am now paranoid about this after the issue with my Sig.
Thank you for all the help so far as well; I am very glad I posted something!
All I know is that it's supposed to be the LEM version they bring into the country for '10.
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