View Full Version : House votes to extend tax on wealthy estates
SeriousStudent
12-03-09, 19:41
Speaking as someone who sold a family ranch due to estate taxes under Carter, this thrills me no end. :rolleyes:
CarlosDJackal
12-03-09, 20:15
Share the wealth!! :rolleyes: ****ing commies!! :mad:
Belmont31R
12-03-09, 20:37
Tax tax tax and tax some more!
Speaking of "fair" (which this is clearly not)...how about each person gets 1 vote for every 5k they pay in taxes. Isnt that fair since "rich" people are more effected by taxes than most people? Its only fair they get more representation in government since they have more at stake. People who get more money than they pay in get negative votes, and don't get to vote until they get 5k positive tax dollars.
But no we let the majority of people who pay very little in taxes if anything vote money out of other people's pockets.
I'm straight outraged by that statement I put in bold.
Amazing, isn't it?
I always thought that it was the "nation" that benefitted from the energy, ambition, and talents of its individuals.
What is the "nation," anyway, other than a collection of individuals. What number of individuals, other than one's self, constitutes the "nation."
What an absurdity.
And btw, the estate tax does not tax "families," it taxes individuals.
Gutshot John
12-03-09, 21:01
The level of knowledge on the Estate Tax and what this means/did is pretty abysmal. The thread title is misleading. They essentially extended the estate tax CUT that was passed under the Bush Administration and was due to sunset (yes like the AWB).
Had they not passed the extension, next year the estate tax would have jumped back to the OLD rate which would have been a huge tax increase. IIRC the current extension taxes at a marginal rate of 45% for anything over 3.5 million, if it had reverted the tax would have been 65% for anything over 1.25 million.
It ain't perfect but it beats the alternative.
Belmont31R
12-03-09, 21:08
The level of knowledge on the Estate Tax and what this means/did is pretty abysmal. The thread title is misleading. They essentially extended the estate tax CUT that was passed under the Bush Administration.
Had they not passed the extension, next year the estate tax would have jumped back to the OLD rate which would have been a huge tax increase. IIRC the current extension taxes at a marginal rate of 45% for anything over 3.5 million, if it had reverted the tax would have been 65% for anything over 1.25 million.
It ain't perfect but it beats the alternative.
Its pretty sad "beats the alternative" means someone is still paying about half in taxes.
Funny that they call it "just." Very important work that is so terribly abused today.
Is double jeopardy just? Much of someone's estate gets taxed on what was already taxed.
Is punishing success just? The injustice is that people work hard, use their smarts to save and invest, build companies, and then the govt thanks them by taking it away.
"Justice" in that sentence in the article actually means it is "immoral" NOT to take money from people that they consider "wealthy." Can they really make that case that it is IMMORAL to take money from a person who dies? It may be IMPRACTICAL in the eyes of some govt officials, but "unjust"? What are they teaching lawmakers in school these days?
"Wealthy" is arbitrary. The truly "wealthy" know how to set up shelters and corporations and millions and millions of life insurance to pay off the govt to keep their creepy hands off your estate. The people hit hardest by this are those who don't have enough money and resources to shelter it.
The other stupid thing about the bolded sentence relates to those individuals who made their money in other countries and only resided in our land. Is the govt suggesting we can record what money we made by investing in developing countries and keep them from taxing it?
The level of knowledge on the Estate Tax and what this means/did is pretty abysmal. The thread title is misleading.
:rolleyes:
Gutshot John
12-03-09, 22:35
Call me when you pay what I pay chief. Call me when you've spent a fraction of what I have to protect your estate (which if not for the fortune I'VE spent protecting MY estate for MY CHILDREN, would be subject to this 'not so bad' estate tax) for your children. Let's see then you the pass the "it beats the alternative" bullshit, apathetic, "it ain't that bad" garbage. I'm rightfully entitled to be upset by either choice and frankly your snobbish asshole attitude is wearing people real thin. (btw, the thread title was the title of the article. :rolleyes: )
It blows me away how you miss the most obvious of points sometimes. It further confounds me what you choose to latch onto and even further how arrogant and pompous you choose to be about it. Christ kid. You ain't the smartest, wealthiest or baddest in the room sometimes. Accept it and quit being "that" guy... for the forums sake.
Except you missed the point.
You heard the word "extension" without thinking about what was being "extended." They extended a tax CUT, they didn't extend a TAX. There was never a chance that the estate tax was going away.
You guys get worked up over anything without actually understanding what's being done. Do I prefer no death tax? Yes but that wasn't a possible outcome with the house vote. They could EITHER vote to extend the tax cut OR they could let it expire and your tax rate goes UP. You pick which is better.
Honestly I'm tired of self-described conservatives who shriek about the Constitution but have very little understanding of how it practically works. If pointing that out makes me an asshole, well then tough, I'm telling you the truth. Grow up.
If you're spending that money to protect your kids estate that means you have at least a $3.25 million dollar estate, if that's the case then you're doing quite well. You're right I do wish I had your problems.
Gutshot John
12-03-09, 22:54
If you'd prefer to wallow in ignorance than actually put some effort into figuring out how your system of government actually works that's your choice.
Your original thread posting was either accidentally or deliberately misleading.
That the "conservative bandwagon" jumped on without actually putting any critical thought into that original post that was so disheartening.
Conservatives used to know what they're talking about... now they get their talking points spoon-fed to them by Hannity and Beck.
I've said my piece and now you're free to proceed with your circle-jerk.
Jay Cunningham
12-03-09, 23:04
Let's be less grumpy on teh intrawebs.
Aiight?
Gutshot John
12-03-09, 23:20
Nevermind.
Jay Cunningham
12-03-09, 23:24
Okay, I asked nice and we can see where that got us.
Is winning teh intrawebs that important?
Interesting article, thanks Z. ;):D
I'm straight outraged by that statement I put in bold.
Yep agree.
Here is the part that makes me laugh.
Let's take two people and compare them.
Person #1: Spends all the money they make and dies penniless.
Person #2: Saves their money and leaves an inheritance.
Person #2 is heavily penalized for saving and passing on some of their wealth. :rolleyes:
C4
Tax tax tax and tax some more!
Speaking of "fair" (which this is clearly not)...how about each person gets 1 vote for every 5k they pay in taxes. Isnt that fair since "rich" people are more effected by taxes than most people? Its only fair they get more representation in government since they have more at stake. People who get more money than they pay in get negative votes, and don't get to vote until they get 5k positive tax dollars.
But no we let the majority of people who pay very little in taxes if anything vote money out of other people's pockets.
I pay over $80K in taxes so I like this idea! :D
There was a funny interview on FOX the other day. The discussion was that the Govt needs money, but does not want to raise taxes. One of the people made the statement that a majority of Americans do NOT pay any tax and some even get money back (even though they pay ZERO taxes). :rolleyes:
What was also said (that I thought was VERY accurate) is that people that do not pay any taxes never get upset about stuff like the death tax because they don't pay ANY taxes!
Kind of hard to get people pissed off when the majority of what our Govt passes in Congress does not affect them.
IMHO, people in the 18-25 range typically always think that it is a good thing to "stick it to the rich." They fail to realize that they are in a low tax bracket now, but someday, that may change and all those tax increases that they were in favor of has just screwed them.
C4
The level of knowledge on the Estate Tax and what this means/did is pretty abysmal. The thread title is misleading. They essentially extended the estate tax CUT that was passed under the Bush Administration and was due to sunset (yes like the AWB).
Had they not passed the extension, next year the estate tax would have jumped back to the OLD rate which would have been a huge tax increase. IIRC the current extension taxes at a marginal rate of 45% for anything over 3.5 million, if it had reverted the tax would have been 65% for anything over 1.25 million.
It ain't perfect but it beats the alternative.
Yes, I think we (or most of us) understand what has happened.
Many of us what the estate tax to go away completely (or lowered).
C4
Gutshot John
12-04-09, 12:43
Many of us what the estate tax to go away completely (or lowered).
I completely agree, getting rid of the Death Tax was one of my biggest issues when I worked in DC. I want it to go away just as much as you do. It's unfair, it's detrimental and in the end does its most damage with small business.
We couldn't get it through because of a Democratic Senate at the time. The best that could be done was a compromise bill with a 10 year sunset that would only functionally disappear for one year before reappearing at the status-quo ante level.
This extension allowed estates to know exactly what they were going to be paying next year and beyond so they could estate-plan effectively.
Nothing in life or in politics is "perfect" and I agree this is far from that, but the standard once again is not perfection but the alternative. They simply made an existing tax cut permanent rather than let it expire.
That this extension was accomplished in a highly liberal house (still needs to go before the Senate) instead of being allowed to expire (which would revert to pre-2001 levels) is actually a hopeful sign that even the Dems realize that increasing taxes is a bad idea in this economy.
The Death Tax can certainly be repealed altogether later which we all agree is the preferred scenario but its never going to happen with a Democratic controlled legislature.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704517504574589891167748408.html
"Estate Taxes Are the Third Time Some Income Is Taxed
Regarding your editorial "The Tax that Won't Die" (Dec. 11): The assertion that the estate tax represents a second tax on earnings understates the problem.
First, earnings are taxed with federal and state personal income taxes.
Second, the portion of after-tax earnings that is accumulated and invested in assets, financial and otherwise, is taxed a second time as capital gains and dividends (both of which are taxed previously with the corporate profits tax).
Third, what is left is hit with the federal death (estate) tax for those accumulating wealth beyond the current threshold of $3.5 million. Federal and state estate taxes represent third-stage taxes on the original first-stage earnings. Moreover, it is noteworthy that the foregoing ignores federal/state payroll, property and sales/excise taxes.
The unintended consequence of so much taxation in stages is to incentivize consumption. The more one spends on consumer goods, the greater the legal avoidance of taxes at the second and third stages. Not only are high earners and savers taxed more times but they are taxed at higher progressive rates. Thus, under our federal and state tax codes, a disproportionate burden of taxation is loaded onto those who save and accumulate capital. The formation of capital is a necessary condition for a rising standard of living for all citizens. Thus, the current system of taxation undermines a very important socio-economic process, the savings and capital formation, which contributes to improvement in our economic well-being. And another unintended consequence: By reducing the after-tax rewards for economic activity those same taxes undermine the incentive to work, earn and produce.
What is surprising is that we have been able to enjoy the level of economic prosperity that we have given the excessive burden of taxation by all levels of government.
George V. Launey
Lakeway, Texas"
I pay over $80K in taxes so I like this idea! :D
There was a funny interview on FOX the other day. The discussion was that the Govt needs money, but does not want to raise taxes. One of the people made the statement that a majority of Americans do NOT pay any tax and some even get money back (even though they pay ZERO taxes). :rolleyes:
What was also said (that I thought was VERY accurate) is that people that do not pay any taxes never get upset about stuff like the death tax because they don't pay ANY taxes!
Kind of hard to get people pissed off when the majority of what our Govt passes in Congress does not affect them.
IMHO, people in the 18-25 range typically always think that it is a good thing to "stick it to the rich." They fail to realize that they are in a low tax bracket now, but someday, that may change and all those tax increases that they were in favor of has just screwed them.
C4
Well said Grant and I would like to add that the whole, "stick it to the rich," mentality makes good sense too if that person expects to get a decent job and make decent money. Let's see, how many more "great" jobs will there be when the rich get robbed by the government, well they lay people off.
The world of conservatism and capitalism just is pure logic, plain and simple. Liberalism is very much a fatal disease.
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