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View Full Version : Why isn't M4C a pay site?



Gutshot John
12-04-09, 10:36
It seems to me that there is substantial value that M4C provides not only with its technical information and resources, but all the SMEs and industry pros that contribute decades of real experience in the topics.

I don't see why a $10/year basic membership should be so much of a burden to support and fund the site especially those that make use of it frequently. We're talking less than a dollar a month and anyone too cheap to pay that is a leech.

We get discounted merchandise, we often get deals/specials on training. I'd bet in terms of dollars I've NOT spent on worthless junk already justifies funding M4C for a full century.

It would also minimize the potential of spammers, trolls and the like. Mods/SMEs, Mil/LEO etc would obviously be exempt.

Just a thought.

Tungsten
12-04-09, 10:51
I'd happily pay it.

huklbrry
12-04-09, 11:00
Well worth it

ST911
12-04-09, 11:31
I think we're as likely to see that as we are seeing a requirement to fill out a basic profile.

STAFF
12-04-09, 11:44
It seems to me that there is substantial value that M4C provides not only with its technical information and resources, but all the SMEs and industry pros that contribute decades of real experience in the topics.

I don't see why a $10/year basic membership should be so much of a burden to support and fund the site especially those that make use of it frequently. We're talking less than a dollar a month and anyone too cheap to pay that is a leech.

We get discounted merchandise, we often get deals/specials on training. I'd bet in terms of dollars I've NOT spent on worthless junk already justifies funding M4C for a full century.

It would also minimize the potential of spammers, trolls and the like. Mods/SMEs, Mil/LEO etc would obviously be exempt.

Just a thought.

Good question. We do have a site sponsorship option available, but very few people take us up on it. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4836

We could force people to be a SP in order to view threads, but that drastically cuts down in participation.

M4C is not like other gun forums in that the owners do not live off the money generated by the forum. Because of this, we do not push the site sponsorship thing very hard.

rob_s
12-04-09, 12:02
How about "site sponsors only" in GD?

Gutshot John
12-04-09, 12:26
How about "site sponsors only" in GD?

Though completely self-serving I think that's a good idea or maybe limited priveleges.

Two posts or one thread a day for instance (might not be a bad idea for sponsor's too) if that's even possible to do.

I just think that people value more what they pay for. M4C is clearly a valuable resource and the owners should be free to make it more then just self-sustaining. I think M4C has a lot more cachet than other firearms sites and that should be protected.

It might not be a bad idea to generate a site survey to see who makes use of the forum just from an advertising perspective to see whether it makes sense to cater more to the hardcore shooter vs. the occasional hobbyist?

MisterWilson
12-04-09, 12:47
.....

Gutshot John
12-04-09, 13:10
A "leech"? Pound sand little man.

We're all shown the advertising, we all contribute to the content of the site, if you want to feel like a hero then go donate your own money. I'm perfectly fine "leeching"...

:rolleyes:

Your enduring committment to this site is noted.

If you don't see the value in contributing as a notion, I'm not going to put a gun to your head. You're entitled to that opinion and you're entitled not to pay a dime. You're mistaking my questioning of a policy for a change in policy. So far it doesn't seem like that policy will change. Oh and I do contribute my own money to this site.

That said if you're not willing to put $10 whole bucks on the line per year then I'd argue that you don't see the value and therefore the point is moot.

RogerinTPA
12-04-09, 13:22
How about a $5 or $10 annual fee, and make Site Sponsorship above and beyond that (bronze, silver, gold, or Lurker (site restrictions), Member, Site Sponsor, ), with perks (memory storage, larger avatars, exclusive notification, group buys). Set up a pay page to use credit cards or paypal.

Setting up a M4C store, would go along way to generate revenue, selling hats, mugs, t-shirts, sweatshirts, license plate frames, rebranded Vickers slings with M4C logo, key chains, bumper stickers, etc...

SoDak
12-04-09, 13:31
I could see having a paying option that allows those members extra privileges, sort of like arfcom. That new members who aren't familiar with M4C won't be turned off by having to pay to even access the board and if they like it then they ca upgrade their membership. The only thing I would worry a little about is would this site get the "don't listen to the freeloaders" and "how dare you be on this site without a membership" mentality like a few sites I've seen. However, I doubt that would be much of a problem(if at all) since the membership are of a bit higher caliber here.

RogerinTPA
12-04-09, 13:31
Though completely self-serving I think that's a good idea or maybe limited priveleges.

Two posts or one thread a day for instance (might not be a bad idea for sponsor's too) if that's even possible to do.

I just think that people value more what they pay for. M4C is clearly a valuable resource and the owners should be free to make it more then just self-sustaining. I think M4C has a lot more cachet than other firearms sites and that should be protected.

It might not be a bad idea to generate a site survey to see who makes use of the forum just from an advertising perspective to see whether it makes sense to cater more to the hardcore shooter vs. the occasional hobbyist?

The only problem with that is, most gun forum members are "occasional hobbyist" if that. The interest in the kind of info this forum provides, benefits both sides of the coin, but in this economy, most cannot afford to be a "hardcore shooter", but the interest remains. So maybe a recurring annual membership fee of something affordable (5, 10, 15 bucks), would be the answer, without the perception of being "elitist". With site restrictions to non paying members.

MisterWilson
12-04-09, 13:37
.....

Gutshot John
12-04-09, 13:48
Your proposition doesn't appear to be optional, but instead a requirement.

It's always optional. The original proposition was based on the premise that if you see no value than you won't pay and if you do, you will.

If you don't see the site as worth spending the 10 whole dollars to maintain then please explain your rationale. While I might consider Kyle DeFoor and others here as contributing to the site just by their posts, I don't perceive yours (or even my) postings as adding any real value.

If you regularly spend money with the advertisers of this site than my proposition doesn't apply to you though I'd argue that if you're still not willing to pony up 10 bucks well then you won't be missing out on anything if this all goes away.


To hell with that noise. If it ain't broke, what's to fix? So that some people can get their M4C gold star/merit badge?

Clearly you've missed the point.

Voodoochild
12-04-09, 14:09
Play nice children. GSJ you have some valid points and I think it would be of great benefit for everyone to contribute whatever they can afford. Doesn't have to be $10. This site is different than ARFCOM and that is what makes it better.

Blob
12-04-09, 14:21
"how dare you be on this site without a membership" mentality

That is one of the things I hate most about barfcom. I think this reason alone is enough to keep M4Ca free site.

Gutshot John
12-04-09, 15:11
That is one of the things I hate most about barfcom. I think this reason alone is enough to keep M4Ca free site.

I'd never suggest anything if it would mean that's what we become. Honestly I'm quite ignorant about what the issues are for arfcom.

I don't post there. I'm a member but I barely lurk just for the occasional bit of data I can't find here, I don't think I even have one post so I don't know what the requirements are but even if it was a membership based system I see no value in it. If it went away tomorrow I'm confident I wouldn't be missing doodley.

Another member wrote and reminded me that most of the economic support of the manufacturers comes from the occasional hobbyist more than the dedicated shooter. They might not be able to shoot well but they subsidize those that do, perhaps I should give that more creedance.

SoDak
12-04-09, 15:27
I'd never suggest anything if it would mean that's what we become. Honestly I'm quite ignorant about what the issues are for arfcom.

I don't post there. I'm a member but I barely lurk just for the occasional bit of data I can't find here, I don't think I even have one post so I don't know what the requirements are but even if it was a membership based system I see no value in it. If it went away tomorrow I'm confident I wouldn't be missing doodley.

Another member wrote and reminded me that most of the economic support of the manufacturers comes from the occasional hobbyist more than the dedicated shooter. They might not be able to shoot well but they subsidize those that do, perhaps I should give that more creedance.

I highly doubt it would devolve to arfcom since I think many of the people here are better than that. I don't know if it's a big deal over there either other than in GD, but it just bothered me how the membership system made some people act. I think I got soured on the emphasis on being a contributing member on a gun board had to do with not arfcom, but another site I won't mention(don't feel like getting into bashing other boards).

I still stand by letting people at least be able to be a basic member for free because that's why I am a member here. Back in 2008 I was looking to buy an M4 and was looking at a doublestar. I was going to join arfcom and ask, but I couldn't join since I only had a yahoo email address. I had heard about M4C mostly through people talking about the chart and I decided to join. This site educated me about good rifles and I ended up buying a charles daly m4. My point is that I was ignorant about AR style rifles and if M4C hadn't been open to me to learn more, I'm sure I'd still be stuck thinking bushmaster was as good as colt.

geminidglocker
12-04-09, 15:28
Oh jeez. This same thing happened to Glock Talk. I forsee the downfall of M4C. Go have a looky at GT, it's stupid now because anyone can "Pay to Play." If you want to be obligated to talk about video games and Zombies, be my guest, and enjoy paying for it while your at it. BOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!:(

TOrrock
12-04-09, 15:35
I think it would change the entire feel of the site to have a pay only area, and not for the better.

We very much appreciate the sentiment that GSJ has put forth, if you'd like to become a site sponsor, you can do so in this thread:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4836

d90king
12-04-09, 15:37
(or even my) postings as adding any real value.

Don't sell yourself short GSJ... You have added a lot of good info, thought provocative threads, posts and good AAR's etc... I have learned from you, and I have no doubt others have too.

BAC
12-04-09, 18:00
I think it would change the entire feel of the site to have a pay only area, and not for the better.

I completely agree. Part of the great value of this site is that it's free. An open source forum where new blood can constantly flow in prevents stagnation and encourages innovation. It also encourages discussion and deeper understanding of a subject, making it less arcane and more approachable. When Joe Blow gets to talk openly with an SME, knowledge spreads. If it's questionable, it gets discussed.

While I would and do encourage donations when possible to any free and openly-accessible forum (I've donated before to another forum, so I'm not talking out of my ass), I'm also a college student and understand what it means to live on a tight budget and to have other priorities; I don't want a valued resource like M4C to become 'another bill', even if it's a pretty cheap bill in the grand scheme of things. If the ads at the top of the page and a handful of site sponsors are enough to keep the forum running now, especially when so many of these companies are actively involved in the forum, then I see no positive impact in shifting M4C to a pay site.


-B

ToddG
12-04-09, 18:24
Pay-to-play sites are fraught with problems. First, how do you know you want to join if you can't participate first? Reputation?

Second, not every internet/forum newbie is a gun newbie.

Third, there are so many free sites that no matter how good M4C is -- and I agree it's in a class totally by itself in terms of content quality -- that something else would come along to supplant it. Most intelligent people don't pay for something that they can just as easily get for free. Reducing the number of people who visit the site reduces the advertising income, which probably wouldn't be offset by a pittance of an annual fee.

Finally, if you're going to increase revenue, to what end? Are there things about the forum that could be improved by spending money? Or is it to pay those who work so hard to keep it running? I'm not suggesting that would be a bad thing, btw.

I do think it makes sense to add more visibility to the site sponsor-member option. If it were a simple automated thing (gunpal?) I'm sure many people would do it. Throw in things like a higher PM quota, maybe some give-aways from corporate sponsors, etc. and you've created an incentive.

Spade
12-04-09, 21:42
Pay-to-play sites are fraught with problems. First, how do you know you want to join if you can't participate first? Reputation?

Second, not every internet/forum newbie is a gun newbie.

Third, there are so many free sites that no matter how good M4C is -- and I agree it's in a class totally by itself in terms of content quality -- that something else would come along to supplant it. Most intelligent people don't pay for something that they can just as easily get for free. Reducing the number of people who visit the site reduces the advertising income, which probably wouldn't be offset by a pittance of an annual fee.

Finally, if you're going to increase revenue, to what end? Are there things about the forum that could be improved by spending money? Or is it to pay those who work so hard to keep it running? I'm not suggesting that would be a bad thing, btw.

I do think it makes sense to add more visibility to the site sponsor-member option. If it were a simple automated thing (gunpal?) I'm sure many people would do it. Throw in things like a higher PM quota, maybe some give-aways from corporate sponsors, etc. and you've created an incentive.


Yeah pretty much what you said. Well worded Todd.

Biggy
12-04-09, 23:28
I'll just say i like this forum just the way it is.

Heavy Metal
12-05-09, 00:52
The best way to sponsor this site is to patronize the vendors that advertise on M4C.

Biggy
12-05-09, 23:45
The best way to sponsor this site is to patronize the vendors that advertise on M4C.

Amen !

Nathan_Bell
12-06-09, 15:08
The best way to sponsor this site is to patronize the vendors that advertise on M4C.

Exactly

Safetyhit
12-06-09, 16:16
The best way to sponsor this site is to patronize the vendors that advertise on M4C.


That would seem to make sense, and it has nothing to do with being cheap. Just the opposite in fact. Of course, a voluntary donation can't hurt either.

This site seems to police itself rather well. If the staff or mods don't get to you for acting like a simpleton, several others here (never myself) will let you know about it as well.

Also, when one sees the communication level here, unless they are clueless they will determine that it is "our" way or the highway. This one way or the other.

sabretom
12-06-09, 19:19
It's not 10 bucks. It's another 10 bucks.

macman37
12-07-09, 06:37
ixnay on the apay itesay tuffsay!

CarlosDJackal
12-07-09, 09:18
How many here think that John was the type of student who at the end of the last class on a Friday would remind his teacher that they forgot to give the class that quiz, exam, or homework? :D

Just razzing you John!! :p

Once a site requires payment for access, does it then become a commercial entity? If so, does it become something that can be intruded upon by government regulations? Just a thought.

Ga Shooter
12-07-09, 15:40
Because the best things in life are FREE!!!!

ABN Monk
12-07-09, 17:58
ten bucks is 10 bucks...i make a boatload of money working for uncle sam, so i could do 10 bucks. BUT, there are months I come on here every day, and months where I'm not near a computer long enough to get on once in a month. It's a great benefit to not have to pay for something you may not be using...kinda like that burning feeling you get when you realize you just paid 100 bucks last month for your mobile plan that didn't get used while you were out in the woods or overseas. And that being said, I almost exclusively cater to the sponsors for all my web purchases of AR15 gear...which is a princely sum indeed. Just ask my wife. keep it free..it just might be the last thing in this country that is!

MarshallDodge
12-07-09, 18:17
I appreciate the fact that this site is free and that without people freely giving their hard earned knowledge it would be worthless. :cool:

If at anytime there is a need to upgrade software, server, etc., I would have no issue with making a donation.

Gutshot John
12-08-09, 16:37
How many here think that John was the type of student who at the end of the last class on a Friday would remind his teacher that they forgot to give the class that quiz, exam, or homework? :D

Just razzing you John!! :p.

Homework is for peasants. ;)

ToddG
12-08-09, 17:06
Homework is for peasants. ;)

http://ddq5.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/dennis1.jpg

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

STAFF
12-09-09, 10:00
If you would like to donate $20 per year to the site (and receive the "site sponsor" designator below your name), please click on this: https://www.gunpal.net/images/xpressbuttons/subscribe.png (https://www.gunpal.net/gp?req=xpress&hbid=0000000002105601)


Please include your M4C Screen name in the "comment" section so that we know whose account to turn on!


Site Sponsor's will receive increased space for PM's and pics that are uploaded to the forum.


Thank you for your support!

ToddG
12-09-09, 10:16
Just registered with GunPal and submitted my payment. Got a blank screen instead of any kind of confirmation. I've sent a ticket to their tech support to find out whether I'm subscribed or not.

Once the bugs are worked out -- if it's more than just a one-time glitch I hit to begin with -- it's great you guys have turned this into a simple automated task.

STAFF
12-09-09, 10:38
Just registered with GunPal and submitted my payment. Got a blank screen instead of any kind of confirmation. I've sent a ticket to their tech support to find out whether I'm subscribed or not.

Once the bugs are worked out -- if it's more than just a one-time glitch I hit to begin with -- it's great you guys have turned this into a simple automated task.

We do not show any payment being made so something must have timed out.

See what their tech support tells you.

ForTehNguyen
12-09-09, 11:38
need to keep this as an alternative to AR15.com. I usually view pay sites as websites that weed the hell out of the threadcrapping flamefest type of people that goes on in other forums, and I dont see any of that here. Unlike other websites...

panzerr
12-09-09, 12:45
It seems to me that there is substantial value that M4C provides not only with its technical information and resources, but all the SMEs and industry pros that contribute decades of real experience in the topics.

I don't see why a $10/year basic membership should be so much of a burden to support and fund the site especially those that make use of it frequently. We're talking less than a dollar a month and anyone too cheap to pay that is a leech.

We get discounted merchandise, we often get deals/specials on training. I'd bet in terms of dollars I've NOT spent on worthless junk already justifies funding M4C for a full century.

It would also minimize the potential of spammers, trolls and the like. Mods/SMEs, Mil/LEO etc would obviously be exempt.

Just a thought.


Discounts? I am yet to see one and I spend plenty of jink of AR stuff.

There are plenty of free forums out there were guys can find good information. Making this a pay to play site would significantly cut down the user base, which would end in smaller knowledge base which would in the end do more harm than good.

C4IGrant
12-09-09, 12:59
Discounts? I am yet to see one and I spend plenty of jink of AR stuff.

There are plenty of free forums out there were guys can find good information. Making this a pay to play site would significantly cut down the user base, which would end in smaller knowledge base which would in the end do more harm than good.

We run sales and offer M4C members discounts on lots of gear (FYI).



C4

Gutshot John
12-09-09, 14:20
Discounts? I am yet to see one and I spend plenty of jink of AR stuff.

Besides GRTactical's m4carbine.net discounts, I'm sure you've seen numerous instructors and organizations offer "free" classes and other things for m4carbine members.

I'd disagree, but if you think the "plenty" of other forums match the value of this site, then once again my posting doesn't apply to you.

That said we're all adults, we try to pay for what we use. Since resources like this cost money to provide to you and the general public with its knowledge base, it's not a right, it's a privilege.

I'm only suggesting people pay a fraction of what they think the value they get out of the forum. If you can only afford $2, then that's all well and good. If you don't get $10 worth of value out of posting here, than again that's all well and good.

I'm talking to the people that see significantly more value than that. If you're a shooter you'd drop more on a box of ammo for an hour at the range.

Seriously it's not that much of a hardship.

panzerr
12-09-09, 15:53
I understand where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I would rather support this site through sponsors than paying whoever owns this site (the domain owner not listed on internic). I prefer to spend my money on ammo, beer or good pizza or light it ablaze than give it to someone else for use of a public forum which, without the users, would be nothing.

Buckaroo
12-09-09, 20:54
If you would like to donate $20 per year to the site (and receive the "site sponsor" designator below your name), please click on this: https://www.gunpal.net/images/xpressbuttons/subscribe.png (https://www.gunpal.net/gp?req=xpress&hbid=0000000002105601)


Please include your M4C Screen name in the "comment" section so that we know whose account to turn on!


Site Sponsor's will receive increased space for PM's and pics that are uploaded to the forum.


Thank you for your support!

I got
Recipient account was not found. ID=0 when I should have gotten a confirm account screen. Is that a Firefox problem?

Buckaroo

ETA problem is with IE as well. I was able to order a hat but not send site support....

STAFF
12-09-09, 21:38
We are experiencing some technical issues at the moment with Gunpal.

Should have it figured out soon.

ToddG
12-09-09, 22:22
I got a response from Tech Support about eight hours after I submitted my ticket. They suggested trying again, but I'll wait until you guys give the green light.

rob_s
12-10-09, 07:12
I always find these discussions interesting on a much larger scale. The economy of "free" is an interesting situation that the world, and especially the US, finds itself in and things are only shifting further that direction.

I find it interesting as well that so many people get so vehement about not paying for something, even a paltry sum like $10, even while declaring how wonderful that something is.

Those that say "you'll lose membership if you charge" are kind of re-stating the obvious, and that exact situation is often what the proponents of "pay to play" are looking for. They're trying to weed out those that don't see any value in the services of the site. I don't think it will work, but that is often the goal.

I'd like to see a compromise, strictly in terms of General Discussion. I'd like to see GD be either "pay to play" or at least have a minimum post count, like maybe 100 posts, to participate. To those that say "this ain't barfcom", that's entirely my point and exactly what I'd like to avoid. Back when I wasn't into training, or really shooting much, I racked up nearly 10k posts on barf, almost entirely in the GD-type sections. I don't to see M4C become that, and I think limiting access to GD is the way to do it.

I don't think M4C will ever go "pay to play" because the advertisers lose out if they do and you'll never get enough cash from "pay to play" to offset those losses. In fact, even limiting access to GD may have the same effect and for that reason I don't think you'll see that change either.

I do agree, however, with those posters that point out that by and large we're pretty good about abusing the trolls and idiots to the point that they leave. The site is still small enough to do that, and it still seems to be working rather well.

ST911
12-10-09, 12:01
We are experiencing some technical issues at the moment with Gunpal. Should have it figured out soon.

Is there an alternative to Gunpal? Paypal?


I'd like to see a compromise, strictly in terms of General Discussion. I'd like to see GD be either "pay to play" or at least have a minimum post count, like maybe 100 posts, to participate.

I like that idea. 100 posts, or more.

perna
12-10-09, 14:58
or at least have a minimum post count, like maybe 100 posts, to participate.

In my experience having minimum post counts causes more problems than it solves. It usually causes people to post basically useless information, like +1, I do that too!, yes, or bumping of old threads just so they stay on topic. I understand it is easy to warn/ban those people but they probably would not do it if there was not a min post count.

STAFF
12-10-09, 17:07
Is there an alternative to Gunpal? Paypal?





We would like to stay with GP as they are PRO GUN.

We are sure that they will have the issues worked out shortly.

Gutshot John
12-10-09, 17:33
In my experience having minimum post counts causes more problems than it solves. It usually causes people to post basically useless information, like +1, I do that too!, yes, or bumping of old threads just so they stay on topic. I understand it is easy to warn/ban those people but they probably would not do it if there was not a min post count.

I have been told that it would be obvious to any mod if a person was just bumping their post count. The presumption is that their posts would entail something more than "+1".

If one is an actual shooter it shouldn't be too hard to rack up 100 posts with various questions or comments. It would also provide a chance to get to know the community and mods and vice versa.

That said, I'm not suggesting "pay to play" be used as a primary means of excluding "trolls" but rather the main point was that we all gain value from this site and I think that so long as it remains voluntary it behooves people to support the site and keep it that way.

rob_s
12-10-09, 18:20
In my experience having minimum post counts causes more problems than it solves. It usually causes people to post basically useless information, like +1, I do that too!, yes, or bumping of old threads just so they stay on topic. I understand it is easy to warn/ban those people but they probably would not do it if there was not a min post count.

Most forum software has a way to set a minimum word count as well. Making "+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1" types of posts easy to catch.

not to mention that if someone really needed to make 100 +1 posts just to be able to post in the GD.... besides being obvious it'd be ****ing pathetic. As in "put your head in the oven and blow out the pilot light" pathetic. At least those that post whore to get access to the EE have a moderately decent motive.

STAFF
12-11-09, 10:32
GunPal is now up and running and contributions are coming in!

Thank you all for your support and sponsoring the forum.

panzerr
12-11-09, 15:18
That said, I'm not suggesting "pay to play" be used as a primary means of excluding "trolls" but rather the main point was that we all gain value from this site and I think that so long as it remains voluntary it behooves people to support the site and keep it that way.

I could see that if the owner of this domain (whoever that is) didn't have site sponsors and if the owner of this domain had no related business interests. However, my gut tells me that whoever owns this site runs a retail outlet and profits indirectly from this forum.

If true this would be an obvious conflict of interest.

If I knew who ran the show I would be more inclined to donate because this site is a great resource, however the only thread I found about the subject of who owns this domain name was closed. I understand the desire for anonymity, but without disclosure I would be cautious about moving in the pay to play direction.

Jdrimm
12-11-09, 16:30
I did follow the link to sponsorship, because I get more than $20 value from not buying garbage to try it out, and I value free discussion amongst interested people. I really prefer to see M4C stay a free access site, at least for everything out of GD. I normally lurk on a site for quite a while before joining the discussions, and I probably wouldn't be able to do so on a pay site. Just my $.02.

ggt1_02
12-12-09, 08:37
I am a member of another general firearm related forum that allows for sight sponsorship and a tag under your username. Several of the contributing members make a point of reminding you that you are not one whenever your opinion varies from theirs. It makes having a civil discussion almost impossible sometimes. With the quality of people that I have experienced here I don't see that being an issue. However it is always a possibility.
I wish I had the financial ability to donate to anyl of the forums I like to visit, I have done so to other forums in the past. But with times the way they are in my neck of the woods $10 can be a big deal. When things turn around I will be making a donation.
Just my $.02.