View Full Version : Use Google? You have no 4th Amendment rights!
SW-Shooter
12-04-09, 15:57
Every search query is stored by IP ADDRESS, and kept forever. They also are obligated to share this information with the Federal, State, and Local Law Enforcement. They share with the NSA, CIA, FBI. etc....
So you can be traced to from your IP address to your home (if that's where you choose to surf from). This is not conspiracy theory bs. This is fact.
Google has admitted that the digital footprints are shared with the government and the 4th Amendment does not apply to date gathered by a 3rd party due to the 3rdparty doctrine.
Google is subpoenaed tens of thousands of times in a year. They have never not released data from a subpoena.
Your information is not secure.
yes, and they are in bed with this administration..
Every search query is stored by IP ADDRESS, and kept forever. They also are obligated to share this information with the Federal, State, and Local Law Enforcement. They share with the NSA, CIA, FBI. etc....
So you can be traced to from your IP address to your home (if that's where you choose to surf from). This is not conspiracy theory bs. This is fact.
Google has admitted that the digital footprints are shared with the government and the 4th Amendment does not apply to date gathered by a 3rd party due to the 3rdparty doctrine.
Google is subpoenaed tens of thousands of times in a year. They have never not released data from a subpoena.
Your information is not secure.
What is your source of information on all of this? It does not at all jive with any number of things I know to be true on both the technical and legal side.
SW-Shooter
12-04-09, 16:06
For one there are numerous pages on the web.
The documentary "Inside the mind of Google".
The Patriot Act
I could keep going if you want to.
"The Justice Department has requested records for millions of searches made on Google, AOL and other popular search engines in an effort to bolster its case for an online pornography law. The subpoena is for broad data on search habits, not personal information. But the request has raised alarms among industry observers and civil libertarians who wonder what kind of data search engines have about their users -- and what other, more sensitive data the government may seek next.
Google, Microsoft's MSN, Yahoo and AOL received subpoenas for a random sampling of millions of Internet addresses cataloged in their databases, as well as for records for potentially billions of searches made over a one-week period. Only Google refused to comply. The Justice Department wants to use the data to support its argument that Web-filtering software doesn't work."
For one there are numerous pages on the web.
The documentary "Inside the mind of Google".
The Patriot Act
I could keep going if you want to.
Yes, please keep going. Or better yet, point me to something that actually substantiates what you're claiming.
"The Justice Department has requested records for millions of searches made on Google, AOL and other popular search engines in an effort to bolster its case for an online pornography law. The subpoena is for broad data on search habits, not personal information. But the request has raised alarms among industry observers and civil libertarians who wonder what kind of data search engines have about their users -- and what other, more sensitive data the government may seek next.
1. Google denied that request and as far as I know told the DOJ to piss off.
2. The request was for general demographic type of data, not individual data to identify people.
I have no idea about the requests from the justice department but I thought it was common knowledge google logs all queries and ips.
Honestly it is THEIR website.
They would have 4th amendment protection, not the users. Same as if you buy stuff on Amazon and the government asks about purchases made by you. They would have 4th amendment protection, not their customers.
Honestly it is THEIR website.
They would have 4th amendment protection, not the users. Same as if you buy stuff on Amazon and the government asks about purchases made by you. They would have 4th amendment protection, not their customers.
good point..
SW-Shooter
12-04-09, 16:55
Honestly it is THEIR website.
They would have 4th amendment protection, not the users. Same as if you buy stuff on Amazon and the government asks about purchases made by you. They would have 4th amendment protection, not their customers.
It makes it scary that you cannot use a company today without losing your rights.
What's next, every time you fill up with gas you are logged into a climate review database?
An infringement of one is a violation of trust, they just keep creeping into our lives. When will we see this isn't going to bode well for the future of America.
cannarella
12-04-09, 16:58
Most ISPs give you a random IP address when you connect and it is just that an IP address. If all Google has is an IP address from a search and they give that to some agency for whatever purposes all that agency will know is what ISP the search came from. They would then have to go to the ISP and request who was using that IP address on whatever time the search happens. Furthermore with that one IP address at your house there can possibly be multiple computers behind it and with wireless there could be people using (stealing) that connection. This just makes it stinkin hard to trace. What would be easier would be if someone is signed into Google with their Gmail account and did a search. That would be easier to track. Still you have to find who that belongs to and trace it down... I would not be worried.
Even if they gave out your IP address it is useless without going to your service provider to find out your name and address.
Just so you know every web site you visit stores your IP information. Im not sure about this board, but most boards your IP address is visible to mods and staff on every post.
Voodoochild
12-04-09, 17:36
That is why you don't use Google for your searches use Scroogle instead.
http://scroogle.org/
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
Most ISPs give you a random IP address when you connect and it is just that an IP address.
True
However, with broadband (cable/DSL etc) you usually keep the same IP for months until you need to reset your "modem" for some reason or they reset their systems.
SW-Shooter
12-04-09, 17:52
Most ISPs give you a random IP address when you connect and it is just that an IP address. If all Google has is an IP address from a search and they give that to some agency for whatever purposes all that agency will know is what ISP the search came from. They would then have to go to the ISP and request who was using that IP address on whatever time the search happens. Furthermore with that one IP address at your house there can possibly be multiple computers behind it and with wireless there could be people using (stealing) that connection. This just makes it stinkin hard to trace. What would be easier would be if someone is signed into Google with their Gmail account and did a search. That would be easier to track. Still you have to find who that belongs to and trace it down... I would not be worried.
You are far too trusting. I won't call it naive, but too trusting. You can get an address from an IP, type yours in and see how far you can get on your own. Imagine now you have a badge or a warrant, or a hackers ability.
cannarella
12-04-09, 17:59
You are far too trusting. I won't call it naive, but too trusting. You can get an address from an IP, types your in and see how far you can get on your own. Imagine now you have a badge or a warrant, or a hackers ability.
Probably. I do see your point. I think whomeever out there has more to do then track down why I am looking up woodworking tools...
parishioner
12-04-09, 18:11
There was a thread not to long ago about IP addresses.
http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg
Someone posted the above previously.
That is why you don't use Google for your searches use Scroogle instead.
http://scroogle.org/
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
Thanks Voodoochild... new to me..
cannarella
12-04-09, 18:34
There was a thread not to long ago about IP addresses.
http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg
Someone posted the above previously.
What IP are you seeing?
That is why you don't use Google for your searches use Scroogle instead.
http://scroogle.org/
Of course, then you have to trust that the people on that website are actually doing what they say they do. It's a never-ending cycle.
My approach: don't do anything on the internet that I'm embarrassed that other people might find out about, or that might get me into legal trouble. Call me crazy...
It makes it scary that you cannot use a company today without losing your rights.
What's next, every time you fill up with gas you are logged into a climate review database?
An infringement of one is a violation of trust, they just keep creeping into our lives. When will we see this isn't going to bode well for the future of America.
If you own a gas station you would be perfectly within your rights to install a camera and video tape everyone who uses your station. This is fundamental to property rights of the owner. And only the owner has a fourth amendment protection regarding the property.
Now as a consumer, you can choose to NOT buy gas there or not use google or not use Amazon and things like that. But that is the ONLY say you have with respect to a property owner and a private business.
And to do otherwise opens up the door for people to dictate what you may or may not do on your property out of concern for what they think is important. Imagine your neighbors telling you that you can't take pictures in your yard because their home gets photographed in the process and that violates their right to privacy.
Voodoochild
12-04-09, 18:51
Of course, then you have to trust that the people on that website are actually doing what they say they do. It's a never-ending cycle.
My approach: don't do anything on the internet that I'm embarrassed that other people might find out about, or that might get me into legal trouble. Call me crazy...
Todd check their site out they are extremely Anti-Google. Any bit of anonymity I can get the better off I am.
Todd check their site out they are extremely Anti-Google.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here...
OK, their website says they're anti-Google. All that proves is someone has access to a server and a keyboard. Even if they do really hate Google, that doesn't mean they actually follow through on their promise to scrub their logs every 48 hours, etc. If you use that service and want the anonymity, you're trusting them to do what they say. Will they? Won't they?
If we want to get real conspiracy theoretical, what better way to capture the searches of everyone who is trying to hide from Google by creating a site that claims to be anti-Google and claims it will keep your searches anonymous? :eek:
What's the Fourth Amendment??? We've been so busy watching the Second Amendment that the First and Fourth have disappeared. :eek:
Cruncher Block
12-04-09, 20:46
There are web anonymizer services that act as a proxy so your origin IP address doesn't reach the target site.
If you're interested, you can google for some. :)
Privacy isn't really a big part of the "design" of the internet. Receiving a client's IP address is a normal part of the handshaking between computers. Some systems throw the information away. Others retain it for troubleshooting or use it to detect if someone is trying to overwhelm the site.
Cascades236
12-04-09, 20:54
Google is subpoenaed tens of thousands of times in a year. They have never not released data from a subpoena.
and? To obtain a subpoena I need probable cause followed by Prosecutors approval followed by a Judges approval. Google would find themselves in a legal bind if they refused a court order.
.
Voodoochild
12-04-09, 21:01
I'm just playing devil's advocate here...
OK, their website says they're anti-Google. All that proves is someone has access to a server and a keyboard. Even if they do really hate Google, that doesn't mean they actually follow through on their promise to scrub their logs every 48 hours, etc. If you use that service and want the anonymity, you're trusting them to do what they say. Will they? Won't they?
If we want to get real conspiracy theoretical, what better way to capture the searches of everyone who is trying to hide from Google by creating a site that claims to be anti-Google and claims it will keep your searches anonymous? :eek:
Well then maybe we should just all disconnect form the Net. That is the only true way of being 100% sure.
The Fourth Amendment doesn't apply here, and shouldn't. Any protections that would apply are held by the private third-party service you are using. That private third party service should be free to do as they see fit with the info they collect, consistent with their user agreements. Like it or not, it's their business.
ISPs and websites cooperate with LE authorities routinely, both under subpeona/order, or proactively. You'd be surprised at the extent to which they do.
A national trainer whose name many would recognize once found that certain parts of his internet browsing activity was a matter of great interest during a security clearance renewal.
Todd's practice is a good one: Keep it all above board.
SW-Shooter
12-05-09, 00:07
What's the Fourth Amendment??? We've been so busy watching the Second Amendment that the First and Fourth have disappeared. :eek:
On the day of the Sabbath, I say preach on brother! But admitting I have religion in my life has just been logged on the internet for eternity.
Heavy Metal
12-05-09, 00:14
Most ISPs give you a random IP address when you connect and it is just that an IP address. If all Google has is an IP address from a search and they give that to some agency for whatever purposes all that agency will know is what ISP the search came from. They would then have to go to the ISP and request who was using that IP address on whatever time the search happens. Furthermore with that one IP address at your house there can possibly be multiple computers behind it and with wireless there could be people using (stealing) that connection. This just makes it stinkin hard to trace. What would be easier would be if someone is signed into Google with their Gmail account and did a search. That would be easier to track. Still you have to find who that belongs to and trace it down... I would not be worried.
I use the free WIFI in my neighborhood:D
There are several open access points.
Google gives up info to the Chinese Gov't on its citizens knowing they will be jailed or killed. I don't see why they would have a problem giving us up to the US Gov't when ordered to do so.
I really wish people would take the time to better understand their rights before they cried foul.
I recently reminded a friend that what she puts on Facebook could cost her future employment opportunities. She defiantly responded that would be an invasion of her privacy and that if she lost a job because of Facebook she would "sue Facebook."
It would also help if people read the various user agreements and privacy policies (http://www.google.com/intl/en/privacypolicy.html) that come along with the products and services that they use.
Your information is not secure.
You mean information that I broadcast to corporations across a global network is not private? I am shocked.
Next you'll tell me that since I frequently ask Fred, the local gas station clerk, for directions to nearby crack dens, he might one day tell someone else that I asked him. I mean, geez, those are clearly private conversations protected by the 4th Amendment. I don't want him to tell anyone: I just want to utilize his services to get me to various destinations.
No way would he ever squeal though. The day I believe that is the day I believe that he also has recordings of me coming and going, including my license plate. I heard license plates can be tracked back to people, but I dunno.
If you're seriously worried about it just use a proxy site to go through like http://www.hidemyass.com/ I know this works because I got in trouble for using one on a work computers when I was active duty, they are UA for government computer for the very reason that they can't see where you're going online.
spankaveli
12-05-09, 06:08
It makes it scary that you cannot use a company today without losing your rights.
What's next, every time you fill up with gas you are logged into a climate review database?
An infringement of one is a violation of trust, they just keep creeping into our lives. When will we see this isn't going to bode well for the future of America.
The rights are there to protect you from the government, not private companies.
This would be like making a post here, having it deleted/edited/etc, then complaining about you 1st amendment rights being infringed upon.
The rights are there to protect you from the government, not private companies.
So "We the People" do not have any Rights that protect employees from private companies? Are you sure? Really sure? Are you sure that you're sure?
Preferred User
12-05-09, 09:25
So "We the People" do not have any Rights that protect employees from private companies? Are you sure? Really sure? Are you sure that you're sure?I am sure. When you use a service and agree to their terms of use you effectively forfeit your "Rights". There are numerous cases where the Courts have ruled that employees lose certain privacy rights when using company equipment. There are also cases where the pendulum swings the other way, especially when monitoring becomes snooping. However employee rights was not the focus of the OP, it was the information that a user of a service allows a company to collect about them and their use of the service.
On that note check out THIS (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/personalized-search-for-everyone.html) announcement from Google.
Do you know what a Flash cookie (also known as an LSO) is? Better research that term if you are concerned about privacy.
There is also an article in the current Popular Mechanics that will make you really consider a trip to Vegas.
I can tell you that just an IP address really only tracks you to your router (or the router at your company). If there are multiple people in your household or company it takes a lot more work to pinpoint a person. Not that it can't be done, just that it takes more work. That said if I show up at your house or office with a subpoena to examine your computer, cell phone, etc. it will not end well for you.
All of this is just another reason to be mindful of what you do, when you do it and where you do it.
And trust me it is not just what you do on the Internet. Is the extra three cents savings a gallon worth being tracked on your gas loyalty card? What about the coupons you get from using your frequent shopper card? Use a credit card? Way more scary than Google.
If you want to be anonymous disconnect. Otherwise just be smart.
Outlander Systems
12-05-09, 09:36
If you want to be anonymous disconnect.
Hear, hear!
Privacy evaporated. In the "on-line"/credit/electronic$/information-age world, there is no such bird. We've traded privacy for "convenience".
That is why you don't use Google for your searches use Scroogle instead.
http://scroogle.org/
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
I sometimes google for gun parts & sites for info. That's all I concerned about, I don't trust this admin to any extent. The Constitution is toilet paper to these blokes.
SkyStorm82
12-05-09, 09:52
There was a thread not to long ago about IP addresses.
http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg
Someone posted the above previously.
I just went to that site and it gave me that same exact IP address....
It's easy to capture user agents, ips, referrers etc.. a couple php examples..
User agent..
<? echo "$HTTP_USER_AGENT"; ?>
IP..
<? echo "$REMOTE_ADDR"; ?>
I just went to that site and it gave me that same exact IP address....
That’s because you are seeing your IP address. When I see it I get “Your IP is 67.185.91.XXX! Your ISP is Comcast Cable. You are running Windows Vista and Chrome!
variablebinary
12-05-09, 13:03
Do you really think the feds would not exploit all the digital footprints in the sand if given the chance.
Yeah right. Kinda like form 4473 is kept on file just for fun.
I can't count all the times someone has said to me, "you can't do this to me, I have rights!", usually about the time the handcuffs go on.
Every search query is stored by IP ADDRESS, and kept forever. They also are obligated to share this information with the Federal, State, and Local Law Enforcement. They share with the NSA, CIA, FBI. etc....
So you can be traced to from your IP address to your home (if that's where you choose to surf from). This is not conspiracy theory bs. This is fact.
Google has admitted that the digital footprints are shared with the government and the 4th Amendment does not apply to date gathered by a 3rd party due to the 3rdparty doctrine.
Google is subpoenaed tens of thousands of times in a year. They have never not released data from a subpoena.
Your information is not secure.
So, you post your complaint (and plenty of other information) on a Msg. board that retains your IP addy, AFAIK is hosted in the USA, and is just as subject to subpoena as Google (with far less coin in the coffers to fight perceived unlawful subpoenas)???
I really wish people would take the time to better understand their rights before they cried foul.
I recently reminded a friend that what she puts on Facebook could cost her future employment opportunities. She defiantly responded that would be an invasion of her privacy and that if she lost a job because of Facebook she would "sue Facebook."
It would also help if people read the various user agreements and privacy policies (http://www.google.com/intl/en/privacypolicy.html) that come along with the products and services that they use.
You mean information that I broadcast to corporations across a global network is not private? I am shocked.
Next you'll tell me that since I frequently ask Fred, the local gas station clerk, for directions to nearby crack dens, he might one day tell someone else that I asked him. I mean, geez, those are clearly private conversations protected by the 4th Amendment. I don't want him to tell anyone: I just want to utilize his services to get me to various destinations.
No way would he ever squeal though. The day I believe that is the day I believe that he also has recordings of me coming and going, including my license plate. I heard license plates can be tracked back to people, but I dunno.
WORD...
You have to remember that the 4th amendment protects you from searches to your person or property. Information that is stored on a server that you don't physically control is subject to search at any time. I guess the net should have a warning banner like the ones you see when logging onto gov't servers. Remember that you can't expect privacy in the public domain.
If you are worried about big brother watching what you do then use a unsecured wifi connection. Yes they can track an IP address but that only gives you a location not a person so there is some anonymity there.
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