View Full Version : Tactical Link's B.A.L. ripoff of the Magpul B.A.D. ?
justin_247
12-05-09, 06:26
Does this look like a rip-off of the Magpul product?
http://tacticallink.com/Products.aspx?Cat=17
Hard to say if its a "rip-off" Since there are limited number of answers to a question, sometimes just one, its likely that two people apart from each other may come up with the same answer.
That said, it all depends on when this devise was made. If its made well after the B.A.D. was released then yes, its a copy. A lot of this stuff is released with only "Patent Pending" and it takes a few months for an application to show up in a patent search. So even if the company does a patent search to see if their idea is significantly different none may show up and they may go ahead and build it only to find out that someone already created the same thing months later.
Phase 5 and others have had similar designs on the market for quite some time. Which one is a ripoff of which would boil down to who originally came up with the idea. I'm not saying that Magpul wasn't the one who came up with the idea first, but if memory serves, they acknowledged that they weren't the originator of the idea, just can't recall where I acquired that little tidbit of info to give you a valid source.
People tend to think that the first time they see a thing, that the example they see must be the "original" (look at all the drama in the nylon gear market). The first time I saw a battery assist lever with a 90* bend and an extension through the trigger guard was the prototype that Travis gave me in March 2008, before he was even affiliated with Magpul. I know that there are records/videos/etc. of him using the lever dating back to at least January of that year.
That said, I have had people tell me that there were levers like these in use years earlier. So far every one I have tried tracking down has lacked the 90* bend (indicating to me that the people referring me to them don't know their ass from their elbow), but that doesn't mean that Travis didn't get the idea from somewhere else.
I'd like to try the Tactical Link product. I'm not too thrilled with the white lettering down the side but there are aspects of this design I find interesting.
Phase 5 and others have had similar designs on the market for quite some time....
Hopefully, Magpul or someone else was able to pull a patent on it and they will have their rights protected. Otherwise the point of who copied who becomes nearly irrelevant for internet discussion and more about whose lawyer is better.
RogerinTPA
12-05-09, 09:35
Since the BAD is "Patent Pending" and not under patent, and since there had been a couple of other "like devices" out there during the same time frame, it would be hard to say who was doing any "ripoffs". The same can be said for the booniepacker sling, in relation to all the other slide adjusted slings that came after.
justin_247
12-05-09, 09:47
People tend to think that the first time they see a thing, that the example they see must be the "original" (look at all the drama in the nylon gear market). The first time I saw a battery assist lever with a 90* bend and an extension through the trigger guard was the prototype that Travis gave me in March 2008, before he was even affiliated with Magpul. I know that there are records/videos/etc. of him using the lever dating back to at least January of that year.
That said, I have had people tell me that there were levers like these in use years earlier. So far every one I have tried tracking down has lacked the 90* bend (indicating to me that the people referring me to them don't know their ass from their elbow), but that doesn't mean that Travis didn't get the idea from somewhere else.
I'd like to try the Tactical Link product. I'm not too thrilled with the white lettering down the side but there are aspects of this design I find interesting.
Rob makes very good points, as usual.
Hopefully, Magpul or someone else was able to pull a patent on it and they will have their rights protected. Otherwise the point of who copied who becomes nearly irrelevant for internet discussion and more about whose lawyer is better.
Who holds the patent doesn't necessarily tell who the idea or design originated with. It simply tells who applied for the patent and provided supporting documentation first. Like you said, by and large it's an irrelevant internet discussion as Magpul has a patent pending on the design and patent infringement usually requires funds in order to enforce. Funds which the guy who built a sample of one for their own use can often not afford to part with.
Anybody ever done a comparison side by side of them v. Magpul of Phase V?
ForTehNguyen
12-09-09, 11:32
Magpul one looks a lot cleaner, it only has one torx screw vs set screw and 2 mounting screws. I prefer my BAD type device to be all black to match my gun.
As for side to side comparison they are going to to do the exact same thing. Cant imagine much being different.
As for side to side comparison they are going to to do the exact same thing. Cant imagine much being different.
You might be surprised. For something so simple, there are a lot of fine points that matter.
Right, wrong, patented or not B.A.L to B.A.D. is sailing pretty close to the other ship, looks like one was trying to draw on the second's nomenclature and name recognition. And since the B.A.D is well publicized with in AOTTC I and on the boards it does lead to speculation.
Magpul one looks a lot cleaner...
This one looks cleanest, but as Rob points out, it may not be identical in execution to the Magpul B.A.D. I know one very good shooter, who posts here, that used this one before the Magpul version came out.
http://www.phase5tactical.com/g_products/images/ebr/prod.ebrv2.3.1.jpg
Ridge_Runner_5
12-09-09, 15:30
This one looks cleanest, but as Rob points out, it may not be identical in execution to the Magpul B.A.D. I know one very good shooter, who posts here, that used this one before the Magpul version came out.
http://www.phase5tactical.com/g_products/images/ebr/prod.ebrv2.3.1.jpg
Actually, that one looks very busy, with all the odd cuts and whatnot on it...
Actually, that one looks very busy, with all the odd cuts and whatnot on it...
:rolleyes:
Of course, of course. Sky is purple and water is dry...
Considering the post to which I replied was discussing number of screws, a lever with no screws at all would be "cleanest". Skeltonizing a part may be personal preference.
What is that green glob thing on there?
What is that green glob thing on there?
I would imagine adhesive holding the bolt catch and lever together.
What is that green glob thing on there?
I've always wondered that too. However, they are advertised, I believe, as a single piece unit. Have zero regrets with the BAD though. Weapons should have came that way...
jahwarrior1423
12-09-09, 23:10
Actually, that one looks very busy, with all the odd cuts and whatnot on it...
Seems like a lot of people worry about what their rifle looks like rather than its actual function.
What is that green glob thing on there?
The cutout the epoxy is in replicates their logo outline. From what I understand it is held together by a high-grade epoxy that is way overrated for this sort of application.
The cutout the epoxy is in replicates their logo outline. From what I understand it is held together by a high-grade epoxy that is way overrated for this sort of application.
I have one of the Phase 5 levers like the one pictured above, the lever is welded (TIG, welding is part of my job description) to the bolt catch, then heat treated afterwards to relieve post welding stresses. The green epoxy is purely to replicate thier trade mark green shield as seen on their web page.
I had one of the earlier versions, had an issue with it, and Phase 5 replaced it with the newer version. Ken has great customer service and really is focused on providing the best product possible to the customer.
The lightened version seen above (the cuts that make it look busy actually serve a purpose) has been flawless to date, I'm extremely happy with both the product and company.
Hope this clears some things up.
Belmont31R
12-10-09, 00:40
I may try the Phase 5 one as my BAD lever has a loose fit on every single bolt catch I have at home (incl KAC, LMT, Colt). On two of them it wobbles 1/2" with the bolt locked back which has the least play. It just doesnt tighten down near enough.
Did ok on the KAC but has loosened up also to where I took it off. Also had a few failure to lock backs with the KAC and BAD together, and based on the sheer number of people who have had the same issue I know I am not close to being alone on that. Would love for it to work right on my guns, and not cause malfunctions but glad lots of people use them without issue.
I may try the Phase 5 one as my BAD lever has a loose fit on every single bolt catch I have at home (incl KAC, LMT, Colt). On two of them it wobbles 1/2" with the bolt locked back which has the least play. It just doesnt tighten down near enough.
Did ok on the KAC but has loosened up also to where I took it off. Also had a few failure to lock backs with the KAC and BAD together, and based on the sheer number of people who have had the same issue I know I am not close to being alone on that. Would love for it to work right on my guns, and not cause malfunctions but glad lots of people use them without issue.
This is interesting as I was marveling at the way one of my BAD levers mated with my gun when I put it on. I had to take it back off and look it over again I was so impressed with the machining. I wonder if yours is defective?
ForTehNguyen
12-10-09, 10:24
you sure it isnt the bolt catch itself that is lose? BAD already has a second revision where the neck under the paddle is a little thicker. I have two Rev1 and one Rev2 at the house. Some of my bolt catches pre BAD are slightly looser than others, and after installing the BAD, that didnt change
I have one of the Phase 5 levers like the one pictured above, the lever is welded (TIG, welding is part of my job description) to the bolt catch, then heat treated afterwards to relieve post welding stresses. The green epoxy is purely to replicate thier trade mark green shield as seen on their web page.
Thanks for clarifying, I only quickly got to handle a carbine with one installed. Welded makes it even better, and still "cleaner" than any model with screws of any sort. :D
you sure it isnt the bolt catch itself that is lose? BAD already has a second revision where the neck under the paddle is a little thicker. I have two Rev1 and one Rev2 at the house. Some of my bolt catches pre BAD are slightly looser than others, and after installing the BAD, that didnt change
When did they start making the rev2 BAD? I have 2 of the first run(one on my personal and one on a work MK18), and they both have a lot of play on the bolt release. They rotate forward and backward on the paddle. I was thinking about putting something on there to stop this. Is magpul offering these inserts as an uprade to the first run BADs?
Belmont31R
12-13-09, 04:45
When did they start making the rev2 BAD? I have 2 of the first run(one on my personal and one on a work MK18), and they both have a lot of play on the bolt release. They rotate forward and backward on the paddle. I was thinking about putting something on there to stop this. Is magpul offering these inserts as an uprade to the first run BADs?
Mine is 2nd gen, and is loose on every bolt catch.
Maybe they should think about including inserts or maybe a few different size back pieces.
I am going to try cutting a small piece of leather out of an old wallet, and see if that doesnt help me out.
Littlelebowski
12-13-09, 08:34
Seems like a lot of people worry about what their rifle looks like rather than its actual function.
He was talking about the catch.
ForTehNguyen
12-13-09, 09:42
from my experience the BAD looseness feel is due to how well the bolt release fits into the lower receiver, some have more play than others. My BADs interface with the bolt paddle itself is tight but the bolt catch and pin on the lower receiver is more loose. I have 2 DPMS and 2 CMMG lowers, both CMMG lowers have a tighter fitting bolt catch than the DPMS and the BADs on the DPMS lowers "feel" a little looser. If you have a loose fit with the BAD and bolt catch itself, try to tighten the screw a little more.
I just checked mine and one of my BADs was a bit loose with the bolt paddle itself, so I tightened the screw and its tight now.
rev1:
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/images/BAD.jpg
rev2:
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/a7fab85353bc6519663f582d4d3196ee.jpg
TXGUNNER308
12-13-09, 20:44
It's a free market...MagPul can't seem to keep up with demand. Let the other players shine!
Seems like a lot of people worry about what their rifle looks like rather than its actual function.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so long as design doesn't impede function.
As for loose BADs, much can be attributed to physics. The fulcrum is the roll pin, the lever is the BAD. Essentially, it's a long lever attached to a fulcrum that needs a bit of play in it's axle to function. The lever amplifies any slop present in the system. Receivers with more play will feel quite loose at the end of that lever. It still works, though, and you wouldn't want it too sensitive.
My POF receiver has a bit of play in that area, and the BAD amplifies it considerably, but I haven't found it to be an issue. In fact, I find the play important, when considering the potential ramifications of accidentally tripping the catch. It works completely as advertised, and it's a darn good idea, no matter who came up with it first.
I second that... I know most here have the manuel of arms down to sub-conscience, but I still think this is worth it's weight in gold. I'd say those who don't find merit are just too set in there ways. Regardless of the manufacturer you go with, it still removes steps, therefore time.
Belmont31R
12-14-09, 17:56
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so long as design doesn't impede function.
As for loose BADs, much can be attributed to physics. The fulcrum is the roll pin, the lever is the BAD. Essentially, it's a long lever attached to a fulcrum that needs a bit of play in it's axle to function. The lever amplifies any slop present in the system. Receivers with more play will feel quite loose at the end of that lever. It still works, though, and you wouldn't want it too sensitive.
My POF receiver has a bit of play in that area, and the BAD amplifies it considerably, but I haven't found it to be an issue. In fact, I find the play important, when considering the potential ramifications of accidentally tripping the catch. It works completely as advertised, and it's a darn good idea, no matter who came up with it first.
Im talking about the BAD being loose on the bolt catch itself not the fact it moves with the bolt catch which is supposed to be slightly loose in the lower. Two different things.
A loose fit onto the bolt catch is going to be a lot worse than just a little looseness in the bolt catch to lower fit.
ForTehNguyen
12-14-09, 19:24
all mine are tight on the bolt catch with various LPK manufacturers: DPMS, CMMG, G&R LPKs
I have them on two RRA bolt catches and they're both tight on the catch.
My BADs are mounted on a DPMS paddle, and on a US Military weapon. They both have front to rear rotation (sliding) on the paddle itself. I have tightened the screw down as much as possible, and think that any further tightening will break the screw. The rotation is just annoying right now. I like BAD though, and will figure out a fix to stop rotation. I was just wondering if their was already a fix out.
Really for me it comes down to whichever is cheaper. I can't say I care about the mounting option on any of them. Locktite on the BAD would keep it nice and solid or just some good epoxy would work. Whatever lower I would put it on would stay that way for a long time.
First company to give them out at $20 gets my vote.
mil_dot556
12-16-09, 10:53
to me it doesn't really matter who copied who, but so long as they both work great and create some kind of market competition vs a monopoly.
from my experience the BAD looseness feel is due to how well the bolt release fits into the lower receiver, some have more play than others. My BADs interface with the bolt paddle itself is tight but the bolt catch and pin on the lower receiver is more loose. I have 2 DPMS and 2 CMMG lowers, both CMMG lowers have a tighter fitting bolt catch than the DPMS and the BADs on the DPMS lowers "feel" a little looser. If you have a loose fit with the BAD and bolt catch itself, try to tighten the screw a little more.
I just checked mine and one of my BADs was a bit loose with the bolt paddle itself, so I tightened the screw and its tight now.
rev1:
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/images/BAD.jpg
rev2:
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/a7fab85353bc6519663f582d4d3196ee.jpg
anyone have a v1 pic?
It also looks like Troy is coming out with a nice version as well.
I've got 4 original first run BADs - they all have movement on the paddle. This different than simple wiggling "with" the bolt catch. It's annoying as hell and I'm wondering if some JB Weld wouldn't lock them onto the paddle. I really wish MP would have made a one piece BAD/bolt catch design.
I own an Phase 5 EBR for my 308 because the MP BAD doesn't fit 308 rec's. It works, but it's got sharp edges, is ugly and doesn't have a polished look to it.
It also looks like Troy is coming out with a nice version as well.
I saw the Troy lever on a rifle in their booth @ SHOT, and couldn't believe they could get away with that. I thought patent pending still meant you couldn't copy it, but maybe they've got enough differential that it's not and outright copy. Looked exactly like a BAD to me, though.
Littlelebowski
02-07-11, 09:37
I read that the BAD lever design was open sourced a long time ago with Haley's express consent that people could take and improve upon the design.
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