View Full Version : Slim 9mm's-are there any out there that are GTG
I have been carrying my MP9FS for a while now and while its pretty easy to conceal in the Raven Phantom, I am starting to look at getting a smaller, slimmer, lighter 9mm. I looked at the MP9C and besides having a shorter barrel and grip, its the same size width wise as the FS(which I dont have a problem concealing anyway), so it really didnt interest me since it wasnt that much smaller or slimmer than my FS. I looked at two other guns that really fit the bill for me size wise, but I am questioning their reliability after doing some research; Taurus 709 Slim and the Walther PPS. Taurus-well its a taurus enough said and the Walther PPS had that huge recall for the drop safety, but supposedly has been taken care of. I have shot a Kahr PM9 before and it was ok, but I think a bit small for my taste. I think I looked at a Sig that was about the size of the Taurus/PPS, but it was .380 and not 9mm and I cant remember the model number.
So is there anything else I should check out about the size and weight of the Taurus 709 or the Walther PPS? Single stack 9mm with a 3" or 3.5" barrel.
I wish S&W would come out with a single stack gun in the M&P series. I bet they would sell a ton of them as BUG's to guys issued the MP. Anybody heard any rumors they may be?
Try the SW 3913, I think it is best compact pistol ever made. Slim ,8+1 capacity, small enough to conceal but not too small that it negatively affects handling. Also 100% goes bang every time.
Beat Trash
12-05-09, 08:26
I wish S&W would come out with a single stack gun in the M&P series. I bet they would sell a ton of them as BUG's to guys issued the MP. Anybody heard any rumors they may be?
Our LE sales rep keeps telling us that one is in the works. In 08, it was going to be ready in 09. Now it's supposed to be pushed back to late 2010 or 2011. The issue is the company is rather busy filling orders of current models that are already sold, or selling well.
I agree that a slim, single stack M&P would sell well for them. I'm thinking of an M&P version of their 9mm Chief's special, when I talk with the LE sales rep. Time will tell if/when they actually make them.
As to what's currently available, many like the Walther PPS. While it's thin, it's kinda big overall for my tastes, and the magazines are rather expensive.
I own a Glock 26 and an M&P9c, both close to the size of the PPS, except for width. Both are GTG in my opinion.
I just don't trust the QA track record of Taurus, so I'd personally wait for their new pistol to be out for a while to see how it's going to go.
I still own a S&W 3913, that was my original off duty gun. It was my favorite of the 3rd gen S&W's. Great gun that's GTG in my opinion.
I also own a Kahr PM9. My particular gun is GTG, but there have been enough issues with others, that these guns would appear to be a crap shoot. If you go with a Kahr, they do require a break in period. Kind of tough to go much smaller than the PM9 and still have a shootable pistol.
I like the overall size of the PPS, its pretty similar to the MP9C, but its much thinner, which is what turns me off to buying an MP9C since its no thinner than what I have now. I think the PPS still has that funky mag release on the bottom right? I also am leery of the Taurus, I was just using it as a size comparison since its really close to the PPS and is the size I am looking for. I have also read lots of differing opinions on the KAHR's. I can get them at a very nice discount so I was thinking if picking one up anyway just for the hell of it(the PM9094 model with night sights to be exact).
I will check out the 3913 for sure.
I have not looked at 3" 1911's because I simply dont trust them(compared to a 5"). The Springfield EMP 9mm is about the only one I would be interested in, but I dont know enough about it. I have heard that the EMP is actually a GTG 3" 1911 because it was basically completely re-designed to operate in 3" as well as the 9mm and doesnt share a lot, internally, with a regular 1911.
Thats very interesting to hear about the MP possibly coming out in a slim type single stack package. I am not going to have the money until some time early next year so I am going to wait and see what is intro'd at SHOT 2010.
If a PM9 was too small for you, Kahr makes a P9 with a longer barrel and grip than the PM9. If I'm not mistaken, it's also know for being more reliable than the PM9.
Short of S&W releasing a single stack M&P, the P9 is the direction I'm leaning.
If a PM9 was too small for you, Kahr makes a P9 with a longer barrel and grip than the PM9. If I'm not mistaken, it's also know for being more reliable than the PM9.
Short of S&W releasing a single stack M&P, the P9 is the direction I'm leaning.
I looked at those. I can get a healthy discount on any of the Kahr's. Is the only difference between the P9 and K9 the frame?
Take a look at the Sig P239. It's chabered in 9mm, .40s&w, and .357sig. I had one in 9mm and with the Hogue finger groove wraparound grips it handled just like my issued P226. Made for a great off duty gun. I had a momentary lapse of reason last year and sold it. Been wanting to get another one ever since. Also, Sig makes extended 10 round mags for the 9mm, which is a nice option to have as spare magazines.
Powder_Burn
12-05-09, 10:46
I looked at two other guns that really fit the bill for me size wise, but I am questioning their reliability after doing some research;
I have a 2009 PPS that has run reliably over the it's first ~500 rounds. The PPS ships dry and has a thin coat of a waxy preservative on the internals. The latest iteration of the manual adds a page identifying six points where the PPS needs lube. I used the guide along with some Miltec and all seems well. Nearly all the detailed complaints I have read can be traced back to user error or ignorance of the platform. That said, it is probably a good idea to avoid the early production models as a CYA. If you want to know how fresh a specimen is, here are the Walther date codes:
A B C D E F G H I K
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
The letter corresponds to the numbers so 'AK' is a 2009 build for example. This is the identifier is found between the "N" proof mark and the stag horn (Ulm) on the slide.
...the Walther PPS had that huge recall for the drop safety, but supposedly has been taken care of.
Incorrect - you are thinking PPK
I have also read lots of differing opinions on the KAHR's.
Owned a P40, first hand experiences with PM9, K40, and MK40. Negative performance experiences with poly models and service disappointments with all.
...looked at the MP9C and besides having a shorter barrel and grip, its the same size width wise as the FS
Yep. That's why I don't carry an M&Pc under a t-shirt whereas I am able with the PPS. With the short mag and a FIST kydex pocket holster, a PPS can be pocket carried as well. I tried J-frames, Kahr's, poly sub-compacts, and end up back at the PPS unless I am wearing a cover garment that will conceal the M&P. The PPS mag release is an advantage for me too since my long thumbs can't inadvertently eject the mag when shooting. Disadvantage is that I am unable to stick to just one platform for all of my needs.
Put me firmly in the KAHR camp. .090 thick in 9 mm and great handling in the K9 or P9. I've carried the P40 for years with complete satisfaction.
I'm using a Glock 26 more and more these days, but the Kahrs sure conceal better for me, and handle (subjective) even better.
Skip
i guess kahrs are decent... i don't really rank them up with glock, hk, M&p's etc as far as reliability....
the HK p7 is single stack and slim, though really no smaller otherwise than an M&P
in my search for a more concealable 9mm (started with a G19) i ended up with a G26. the 1" smaller grip really does make it easier to conceal. and the shorter barrel means it works great in a smart carry.
Have you considered a HK P-2000, P-2000sk or a P-7/P7M8? any one of these would work well as a CCW, Of the three the P-7 is the slimmest, very easy to use very reilable, accurate, and very safe to carry, about the only downside is it's a all steel pistol so it's kinda heavy. But from a CCW standpoint, it's very easy to conceal, There are some P-7's that have been imported recently, ( German police trade in's) and there are different grades I bought a Grade "C" P-7 from Top Gun Supply..It shows holster wear, but inside where it really counts it's in excellant shape. It could refinished down the road I figure, (I'm thinking a trip to Tripp Research) anyway, check TGP's website If you're interested, I think they still have some left..
I'd stick with what you got , you said it conceals pretty well in the Raven holster. In my situation i would rather give up a little concealability and have the extra rounds. your situation may me different.
I *think* it can be had in a variety of trigger configs and it's also available in both .40 and 9mm. In my experience, they are quite accurate. The P225 is also a single stack and has great ergos.
ChicagoTex
12-05-09, 16:23
I've got an '09 PPS 9mm also. Once you lube it up (which you should really do with any new gun you buy) it runs great, if you run it dry the trigger sometimes has some hesitation on the reset.
I also had a Kahr CW40 that was reliable and very accurate. I sold it because I fell out of love with the trigger, but I generally wouldn't hesitate to use/own/carry a Kahr again. Though if I were to buy another one today it would be a K9.
SIG P239 is another good recommendation, I don't own one, but have shot one (in .40S&W) on several occaisons and have been very pleased. The biggest downside is it's not nearly as small as the Kahrs and PPS overall, but it may be right for you.
I *think* it can be had in a variety of trigger configs and it's also available in both .40 and 9mm. In my experience, they are quite accurate. The P225 is also a single stack and has great ergos.
You are correct sir in that the trigger can be configured as DA/SA (with SRT as an option), DAO, and DAK. Also add .357sig to the list of available chamberings. The P225 will be slightly larger and can be thought of as a single stack version of the P228. The downside with the P225 is that it's a discontinued model thereby limiting parts availability, especially extra magazines. If it were me I'd go with the current production and more modern P239.
I think it was the Sig 239 that I looked at. While I didnt shoot it, it didnt really feel right in my hand. I am gonna wait till after SHOT to see if anybody comes out with something besides the, basically, 4 or 5 guns we have been discussing.
So as of right now people are recommending:
Sig P239
Walther PPS
HK P7
SW 3913
Kahr P9
Another vote for the SIG 239 here. I'm planning on picking one up for summer CCW this spring.
Does S&W still make that little Scandium 9mm auto? I can't remember the model number/name.
Don't know but is the Beretta 92FS Compact Type M (capacity: 8+1) still being produced?
landrvrnut22
12-05-09, 19:35
Someone may laugh at this, but how about a S&W Lady Smith? The name may sound funny, but they were great guns, compact, and slim. They pop up in gun shops, and on gunbroker from time to time.
I've owned a couple of 3913's and consider them very good single stacks, my Dad and sister have the ones I had and love them. I bought my wife a K9 last year as she was having trouble finding something that would fit her hand and it has proven reliable and accurate thus far. It seems the poly framed Kahr's don't have quite the reliability of the steel guns but I don't have personal knowledge of this, it seems a litte hit and miss with the poly frames and maybe more so with the micro sizes but I think micro sized guns are potentially more tempermental regardless of make (just IMO). I have a P225 but can not conceal it any better than my G19. I can conceal the G19 in most cases but will occasionally carry my airweight j frame in summer weather but I consider the j frames minimal as I would not want to drop to anything less than a .38.
HK's P7's are awesome IMO, I've had three different P7's and loved them, they have their faults but are very impressive for their size. Only problem with them now is price and availability. I should have kept one of mine as I will probably never get another one now.
The only Walther's I've owned are the PPK and PPK/s and P99's.
If I, personally, were chosing a single stack I would look at the K9, the 3913 and possibly the P7 if funds allowed. These are just my thoughts and opinions. Good luck with your choice.
ChicagoTex
12-05-09, 20:27
Don't know but is the Beretta 92FS Compact Type M (capacity: 8+1) still being produced?
No longer in production but you can still find plenty of excellent condition ones on the used market for very reasonable prices (~$400-$500)
Good suggestion, not sure why I didn't think of it.
More suggestions:
Rohrbaugh (sp?) 9mm
Springfield EMP 9mm
ThirdWatcher
12-05-09, 20:47
No longer in production but you can still find plenty of excellent condition ones on the used market for very reasonable prices (~$400-$500)
Good suggestion, not sure why I didn't think of it.
Magazines are kinda hard to find at a reasonable price.
I think it was the Sig 239 that I looked at. While I didnt shoot it, it didnt really feel right in my hand. I am gonna wait till after SHOT to see if anybody comes out with something besides the, basically, 4 or 5 guns we have been discussing.
So as of right now people are recommending:
Sig P239
Walther PPS
HK P7
SW 3913
Kahr P9
I agree that the P239 is not very comfortable with the stock grip panels. I find the front strap isn't rounded enough. However, you really have to try it with the Hogue finger groove wraparound grips. With those grips the P239 feels fantastic in the hand.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-05-09, 21:47
Kahr 9mm is the best for realistic everyday carry. The H&K P7 is probably my favorite handgun ever--it is just too heavy.
Kahr.
NCPatrolAR
12-05-09, 22:12
The SMith 908 or 3953 (if you can locate one) are some options if you cant find a 3913
Regarding the HK P7, I have and love them for their own merits, but be aware measuring thickest to thickest, they are not any slimmer than a G19 or M&P.
I recently picked up a Kahr TP9. In lieu of the non-existant single stack Glock or M&P, it was the best option available to me. It's still got a ways to got before it goes 10-8, but it's digested 400 some rounds trouble free so far with half of that being WWB 147gr JHP.
High hopes for it as it does carry quite a bit easier than the G19 or 228 I usually carry. 1/4" doesn't seem like a lot on paper but in my waistband, it's a huge difference.
Kahr 9mm is the best for realistic everyday carry. The H&K P7 is probably my favorite handgun ever--it is just too heavy.
Kahr.
How's the quality on these? Kahr has had a bad rep in recent years. I've seen a few people recommend the new small 9mm they have, though.
I would have to agree with a few others in the selection of the following three pistols for a "slim" 9mm chambered pistol.
1. Glock 19
2. H&K P7
3. Smith and Wesson 3913
I have owned/ carried the Glock and HK, but not the 3913. I have fired several samples of the Smith and been greatly impressed. A few firearms experts have concluded that it was one of the better semi-autos produced by the company, I would tend to agree.
The problem with the 3913 may be finding one. They don't turn-up all that often, but if you are not in a hurry then searching one-out shouldn't be a problem because there were a few made.
As for the HK as Mr. Bell said, they are slightly heavy but with the right holster it certainly helps alleviate the problem. Although, I only owned the P7M8 I have had the opportunity to try-out all of the variants and shot the M10, M13, and PSP.
Every P7 that I have had the opportunity to fire has been extremely accurate. And I don't believe I ever found a pistol that pointed so easily (110 degree grip angle) and permitted accurate and instinctive fire.
Quirks that I noticed; The single stack (M8, PSP) guns become VERY hot after several magazines are fired in rapid succession. I didn't notice this with the M13 or M10. Also, the pistol is gas operated and must be kept clean. The take-down is a little unusual due to the fixed barrel design. Also, the blue finish that comes on the standard gun/s is not very durable and susceptible to rust and oxidation. When I carried mine I was cleaning-it very frequently (almost daily).
Therefore, if you seriously consider the P7M8 or M13 (mags are $100+ each, only $50 for the P7:eek:), then I would recommend renting or borrowing one first. I have seen quite a few (M8 and PSP) for sale lately on different forums for around $1,000 usually with several mags.
As for the Glock 19. As much as I love my SIG pistols, I would agree with many others in saying that there is probably no finer Concealed Carry pistol. The Glock 19 is fairly inexpensive and easily found in almost any gunshop. The pistols have proven to be very reliable/ concealable and light-weight. And not that capacity is a great issue with proper tactics and marksmanship, but having 15 rounds in the magazine is never a bad thing IMO.
So, if there is no limit to your budget, then consider a HK P7M8 9mm. If you want to carry a pistol similar in operation to the Beretta then take a look at the 3913. If however, you are attempting to purchase a pistol that is light weight, almost impervious to sweat/ rust, has a higher capacity, and is fairly economical try a Glock 19. -Law/Mil discounted price is around $400 and if you are not LE then join GSSF and you are eligible for purchasing at the same price.
Of the three, I would choose the Glock 19 (or a 23 in .40 SW). Myself, I own a Glock 19 and 17 and if I am going to be near or on the ocean I usually carry the G17. I am roughly your size (6'1" 255 Lbs.) and I have no problem concealing a G-17 or a full size Sig 226/220. Choosing the right holster and selecting the appropriate clothing goes a long way towards ensuring that the pistol doesn't print or hinder your movement/s. Either of the three would be more easily concealed than a full-size 92FS.
Best of Luck,
SkiDevil
I would have to agree with a few others in the selection of the following three pistols for a "slim" 9mm chambered pistol.
1. Glock 19
As for the Glock 19. As much as I love my SIG pistols, I would agree with many others in saying that there is probably no finer Concealed Carry pistol. The Glock 19 is fairly inexpensive and easily found in almost any gunshop. The pistols have proven to be very reliable/ concealable and light-weight. And not that capacity is a great issue with proper tactics and marksmanship, but having 15 rounds in the magazine is never a bad thing IMO.
So, if there is no limit to your budget, then consider a HK P7M8 9mm. If you want to carry a pistol similar in operation to the Beretta then take a look at the 3913. If however, you are attempting to purchase a pistol that is light weight, almost impervious to sweat/ rust, has a higher capacity, and is fairly economical try a Glock 19. -Law/Mil discounted price is around $400 and if you are not LE then join GSSF and you are eligible for purchasing at the same price.
Of the three, I would choose the Glock 19 (or a 23 in .40 SW). Myself, I own a Glock 19 and 17 and if I am going to be near or on the ocean I usually carry the G17. I am roughly your size (6'1" 255 Lbs.) and I have no problem concealing a G-17 or a full size Sig 226/220. Choosing the right holster and selecting the appropriate clothing goes a long way towards ensuring that the pistol doesn't print or hinder your movement/s. Either of the three would be more easily concealed than a full-size 92FS.
Best of Luck,
SkiDevil
Have you even read this thread?
No offense, but why in the world would you recommend a Glock 19?
1. I already own a gun that is the same size as the Glock 19(or close enough to count) and have no problem concealing it.
2. The Glock is by no means thin, and I dont think anybody else in this thread would disagree with me.
3. Nobody in this thread has recommended a Glock 19
4. I am looking for a single stack 9mm, the glock aint it
I also dont know why you are talking about Beretta's. I dont own one, nor do I plan to.
Also, how do you know you are roughly my size? That hasn't been talked about in this thread at all. You are not roughly my size.
Thanks for your input on the other guns(Sig 239, SW3913, HK P7), they are way more inline with what I am looking for than a Glock 19.
Kahr "K" series. My K9 is absolutely 100% reliable, slim, easily concealed (in shorts & T-shirt), easy to shoot even w/ +P ammo. Very good DA trigger. The only real downside is the trigger reset is looong. I don't consider its weight over the "P" series a downside as I like the reliability and shoot-ability of the steel frame. It's still only ~26oz.
Considering size, power, payload, cost, reliability and how easy it is to shoot, I think it is one of the great conceal carry guns.
I know exactly where you are coming from.
I would love it if Glock 26 or the M&P 9c came in a compact, single stack. Honestly, I can't believe either company hasn't done so - it would probably corner the market.
Have you looked at the Kel-tecs? Probably about as many issues with them as Kahr, but alot less expensive.
Have you even read this thread?
No offense, but why in the world would you recommend a Glock 19?
1. I already own a gun that is the same size as the Glock 19(or close enough to count) and have no problem concealing it.
2. The Glock is by no means thin, and I dont think anybody else in this thread would disagree with me.
3. Nobody in this thread has recommended a Glock 19
4. I am looking for a single stack 9mm, the glock aint it
I also dont know why you are talking about Beretta's. I dont own one, nor do I plan to.
Also, how do you know you are roughly my size? That hasn't been talked about in this thread at all. You are not roughly my size.
Thanks for your input on the other guns(Sig 239, SW3913, HK P7), they are way more inline with what I am looking for than a Glock 19.
Its Late, for ME. Pardon.
I did read the thread, but I have apparently confused yours with another. Sorry.;)
The Smith and Wesson MP9 is certainly a different gun than the Beretta.
As for the Glock 19 it is very close in size to both the HK P7M8 and the Smith Wesson 3913. I don't have a P7M8 to compare it to now, but placing a G19 right next to a P7 they are roughly the same size. But, that is only my opinion.
I would recommend a Glock 19 because it is a well proven design and widely carried for duty/ combat use. I don't feel the grip is thick at all, especially for a double column magazine.
In Retrospect a compact version of the MP9 would be just as comparable, but I am not familiar with the that model other than handling and firing a standard 9mm MP full-size model.
Good Luck with your search.
SkiDevil
Its Late, for ME. Pardon.
I did read the thread, but I have apparently confused yours with another. Sorry.;)
The Smith and Wesson MP9 is certainly a different gun than the Beretta.
As for the Glock 19 it is very close in size to both the HK P7M8 and the Smith Wesson 3913. I don't have a P7M8 to compare it to now, but placing a G19 right next to a P7 they are roughly the same size. But, that is only my opinion.
I would recommend a Glock 19 because it is a well proven design and widely carried for duty/ combat use. I don't feel the grip is thick at all, especially for a double column magazine.
In Retrospect a compact version of the MP9 would be just as comparable, but I am not familiar with the that model other than handling and firing a standard 9mm MP full-size model.
Good Luck with your search.
SkiDevil
No worries.
I have taken my dad's G19 and my MP9 and compared the two and they are nearly identical in size with the MP9 being just slightly taller and longer, but almost identical widths.
Looking at the width of the various pistols that have been recommended on here, none of them are drastically narrower than what I have now. The M&P I have now is 1.2" wide, the G19 is 1.18" wide, 3919 is .9" wide, PPS is 1.04" wide, 3913 is .9" wide, P7m8 is 1.1" wide, Kahr PM is .94" wide, Kahr P series is .9" wide and the Sig P239 is 1.2".
So width wise we are only talking .3" from what I have now to the smallest. The MP9C has the exact same width, so its just got a shorter barrel and grip.
I think I am leaning towards the Kahr P series. Size wise it seems like it would be a pretty decent fit and would be smaller than what I have currently enough to make a difference in carry-ability. The 3913 and P7 are pretty hard to find. The PPS, I will have to investigate further. G19 is out because it is damn near the size of what I have now(and I have passed up Glocks every time I have bought a pistol because they dont fit my hand at all).
I have a H&K P2000, 9mm that I'd call my primary CCW. It has been 100% since day One. But I was wanting a 9mm that could be "pocketable" or at least more concealable.
Earlier this year I got a Sig P239. As others have said, great weapon and the grip is better with Hogues. But at the end of the day, no real size advantage over the P2000 and weighs as much, with half the rounds.
Traded the Sig for a Kahr PM9. Again, as noted by others, Kahr recommends a minimum of 200 rounds as break in; it takes more. I found mine to be tight and rough around the edges to my way of thinking. It was not finished and polished as much as I would expect at its price point. And I had some break in problems. I had two barrels that flaked plating after first firing. The third is good.. so far. Kahr customer service was good, but it was still a pain. After about 600+ rounds and the third barrel, based upon how it is now functioning (and this is admittedly somewhat a "feel" thing) I think it is good-to-go. The point being, it is NOT a go-to out of the box and you may be looking at a significant break-in. Frankly Kahr should finish it out better, even if it added a $100 to the price. Little things like: cleaning the firing pin channel, breaking sharp edges and radiusing the extractor. I did these things early on as a fluff&buff, but should I have had to? I can see handing a new-in-box Kahr to a gunsmith for a reliability job. All that said, it is a 9mm punch in about the smallest package I can imagine. And that has a lot of merit and may be worth the effort.
The PM 9 is very concealable and actually can be effectively carried in a front pants pocket. And the PM9 will work well with under-the-clothes holsters like Thunderwear. I added A-grips panels and that helped me in control and grip. A-grip is nice product that has really grown on me. Kinda like a micro-suede grip; sound strange but works for me.
Now for the punch line- I think the majority of the time, I can "dress around" the P2000 and have much more protection at hand.
Stay safe.
I use:
M&P9c (in a SmartCarry, but it doesn't truly qualify as "slim").
Kahr PM9 (also in SmartCarry, for deep concealment).
The Taurus "slim" looks like an interesting design, the ONE thing I like about Taurus is that they always have an interesting package of features that seems to combine just about everything you could want. However, the devil is in the implementation. It's probably worth waiting to see more reviews and see if the "slim" holds up to scrutiny. It's also worth noting, that if you are ok with Kahr pistols, a PM9 is still actually several ounces lighter and a bit smaller than the Taurus "slim", though it has 1 or 2 rds smaller capacity, depending on mag used.
The 709 Slim dimensions are:
6.24" length
4.52" height
1.04" width
3.2" barrel
P9 dimensions are:
5.8" length
4.5" height
.9" width
3.5" barrel
PM9 dimensions are:
5.35" length
4" height
.94 width
3" barrel
So the P9 and the Taurus 709 Slim are pretty similar size wise. I think the PM9 is a bit smaller than what I am looking for and the reliability, from everything I have read, is spotty. The Taurus 709 Slim felt really good in my hand, but I am very leery of Taurus reliability, although the gun is cheap(350ish) so if I bought one and it wasn't reliable I am sure I could offload it fairly easily.
I need to find a Kahr dealer around me to check out the various guns(P9, K9, and PM9). To get my discount, I have to order direct from Kahr, but the discount is worth it(over 50% off retail).
Try the SW 3913, I think it is best compact pistol ever made. Slim ,8+1 capacity, small enough to conceal but not too small that it negatively affects handling. Also 100% goes bang every time.
I have a 3913 and 4516 both great pistols my 3913 gets the most use for sure I take the finger curve mag base pad off and put flat ones on it fits hand much better
Let me also suggest a Sig P225.
I don't know much about them, but hopefully somebody smarter than me will come along and comment.
Joe Mamma
A long time ago, I realized that I liked single stack 9mm's for CCW.
This lead me to buy two P7M8's, S&W 3953 & a SIG P6.
First let me say that a quality holster really makes a world of difference in comfort & concealability. This is why I only use Milt Sparks VM2's.
IMHO, the P7M8 is one of the best choices for CCW ever made. Why? Because it is one of the most accurate pistols ever made, has a fantastic safety/slide release capability and conceals very well because of its grip angle.
You can pick up P7's and M8's all over the place with prices ranging from $500-$1,000.
The SIG P6/225 is also a great gun that you can find cheap ones all over the place.
The PPS seems to be one of the best kept secrets out there. The trigger is a copy of the G-Lock and the mag release is HK like. This weapon is REALLY thin and points well.
If you are budget minded, the S&W 908 is a great value I think, but the 3953 is the classic/standard.
C4
Don Robison
12-06-09, 22:39
Another one here for the Sig P6/P225. The P6 trigger is a bit heavy, but not bad. Magazines are expensive($40ish) when compared to others like Glock. Holsters aren't an issue since they fit P228 holsters.
The sig 225 isnt that slim of a pistol and the size is almost that of a Sig 228 for me I just carry my 228 to get the xtra rounds as the 225 isnt that slim compared to say a 3913
The sig 225 isnt that slim of a pistol and the size is almost that of a Sig 228 for me I just carry my 228 to get the xtra rounds as the 225 isnt that slim compared to say a 3913
I agree. The P228 and P225 slides are nearly identical in size. Between those two I'd go with the P228. The P239 however is noticeably smaller in length, width, and height. Additionally, the P239 is a current gun in Sigs lineup. Parts, especially magazines, are much easier to find. P225 magazines can be scarce and have been known to have issues with the feed lips spreading over time.
ThirdWatcher
12-07-09, 07:32
Based on this thread, I'm kinda interested in the Walther PPS but they sure don't give 'em away.
Based on this thread, I'm kinda interested in the Walther PPS but they sure don't give 'em away.
They also think very highly of the PPS mags.
Let me also suggest a Sig P225.
I don't know much about them, but hopefully somebody smarter than me will come along and comment.
Joe Mamma
The SIG P225/P6 is actually the same size as a double stacked SIG P228, neither of which is significantly thinner or smaller than a S&W MP9.
If you can find one the Sig Sauer P225 is as good as it gets, 9mm single stack. If I could find one I would get one.
The SIG P225/P6 is actually the same size as a double stacked SIG P228, neither of which is significantly thinner or smaller than a S&W MP9.
The 225 is the same basic size but it is thinner and easier to conceal being a single stack
The P225 has the same length and width slide as a P228. The grip is slightly narrower but the same length as the P228's. I'd much rather have the five extra rounds in my magazine.
Based on this thread, I'm kinda interested in the Walther PPS but they sure don't give 'em away.
We are an authorized dealer for them (and stock the mags). If interested, we can quote you a price.
C4
The SIG P225/P6 is actually the same size as a double stacked SIG P228, neither of which is significantly thinner or smaller than a S&W MP9.
Agree. Not much saving size weight, but where you will save it is in the wallet. I have seen P6's for $200!
C4
For those interested, here are my S&W 3953 and P6.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32867
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=23997
C4
MarshallDodge
12-07-09, 09:55
I am in the Kahr camp, they have always worked for me.
The 225 is the same basic size but it is thinner and easier to conceal being a single stack
Not trying to flog a horse here, but take a P225/P6 and a P228, insert magazine, and then place the pistols magazine baseplate to baseplate and you'll see that there is no real appreciable difference in width between the two. The P228 basically killed/took the place of the P225 in the late 80's.
John_Wayne777
12-07-09, 14:53
The P225 has the same length and width slide as a P228. The grip is slightly narrower but the same length as the P228's. I'd much rather have the five extra rounds in my magazine.
I've found that to be true of a lot of single-stack guns over the years. The Beretta M models are a good example. Yes, they were single stack, but overall they weren't much thinner than the doublestack guns.
The 3913 and the P239 were appreciably thinner and carried easier than the doublestack guns from the S&W and Sig lineup.
If S&W really does come out with a considerably thinner single-stack M&P (something in the size range of the Walther) I'd definitely be interested.
I've found that to be true of a lot of single-stack guns over the years. The Beretta M models are a good example. Yes, they were single stack, but overall they weren't much thinner than the doublestack guns.
That's because -- and I am not making this up -- the folks in Italy, upon making the single-stack gun, believed it would make sense if the Type M had a similar grip feel to the 92FS Compact. So they made the grips wider. Swear to God.
Can someone point me to reliable info on the Kahr PM9 as being unreliable? I've read it a few times here and am curious if this is errornet hearsay or in fact something that needs to be considered when looking at it and the competition?
Can someone point me to reliable info on the Kahr PM9 as being unreliable? I've read it a few times here and am curious if this is errornet hearsay or in fact something that needs to be considered when looking at it and the competition?
I sent more than a few back for repair/replacement when I was behind a gun counter.
I sent more than a few back for repair/replacement when I was behind a gun counter.
I'd consider that reliable info ;) Do you remember what the most common complaint was for sending them back?
Suprisingly, it was parts breakage issues, they did tend to feed well, but they just didn't hold up as well as I'd expect.
This may have changed in the last 5 years or so, but I lost a lot of faith in them.
That doesn't mean that if you buy one it's going to crap out, but I'd be a bit leary, and definitely run it before you carry it.
Thanks for your insight Templar. The biggest appeal they have to me, and I'm sure lots of others, is their compact size along with offering the 9mm round for self defense.
John_Wayne777
12-07-09, 21:19
That's because -- and I am not making this up -- the folks in Italy, upon making the single-stack gun, believed it would make sense if the Type M had a similar grip feel to the 92FS Compact. So they made the grips wider. Swear to God.
...so they make a single stack gun that is supposed to be easier to conceal, but then deliberately set out to make it wider to match the "grip feel" of the double stack gun.
...leaving the potential buyer with a gun that's about as big as the double-wide but with less than half the mag capacity.
Decision by committee....because none of us is as stupid as all of us put together!
The thin 9mm I haven't seen anyone mention that has always intrigued me is the Para PXT LDA. I haven't shot one, only handled it. It seems like it would be a sweet carry piece if it was shown to be reliable. I never really hear or see any reviews or info on it though?
http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=58
If you are looking for a slim couble stack check out the Browning BDM. Very nice pistol.
I always thought that SIG would have sold a ton of the P239s if it had a double stack magazine the same length as the single stack.
ChicagoTex
12-07-09, 22:31
Decision by committee....because none of us is as stupid as all of us put together!
I just can't resist...
http://site.despair.com/images/dpage/meetings03.jpg
The thin 9mm I haven't seen anyone mention that has always intrigued me is the Para PXT LDA. I haven't shot one, only handled it. It seems like it would be a sweet carry piece if it was shown to be reliable. I never really hear or see any reviews or info on it though?
http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=58
Para's have a dismal reputation for crapping out.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-07-09, 22:54
Irish,
Can someone point me to reliable info on the Kahr PM9 as being unreliable? I've read it a few times here and am curious if this is errornet hearsay or in fact something that needs to be considered when looking at it and the competition?
I think, after giving proper weight to the internet evidence, it is fair to say that the Kahr has more fleas than a Glock or HK, etc. I have had EXTREMELY reliable service from mine. But for some reason I have been pretty lucky in my gun purchases through the years, with only a few dogs out of a zillion purchases.
I personally think it is the best concealed carry handgun availible. It is the most portable, concealable gun I know of that can be shot well and happens to be chambered in an effective caliber.
The only thing I think comes close is the J-frame.
ChicagoTex
12-07-09, 23:10
Para's have a dismal reputation for crapping out.
Especially the LDAs, which I understand are especially prone to sear breakage.
tracker722
12-08-09, 21:27
just to add a note about Kahr's strength, I accidently loaded a k9 with israeli subgun ammo once. blew out the extractor after the second round, (first round "sounded funny" thought it was just my hearing protectors acting up). Told Kahr about it, they sent me a new extractor and spring, no charge, within a week.
Well apparently this purchase is going to have to wait a few months. I went into a big re-loading shop close to me and a Dillon 550B and every possible accessory followed me home. So my money for my next gun purchase(and the one or two after that) got eaten up. I had been looking for a while and finally said, **** it, and bought it all.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-08-09, 22:13
Probably a good idea. That is a great press.
Browning HP, with thin grips, is pretty slim. I think steel makes thinner pistols than alloy.
Irish,
I think, after giving proper weight to the internet evidence, it is fair to say that the Kahr has more fleas than a Glock or HK, etc. I have had EXTREMELY reliable service from mine. But for some reason I have been pretty lucky in my gun purchases through the years, with only a few dogs out of a zillion purchases.
I personally think it is the best concealed carry handgun availible. It is the most portable, concealable gun I know of that can be shot well and happens to be chambered in an effective caliber.
The only thing I think comes close is the J-frame.
Greg - Thanks for sharing your positive experience. I think I'll buy one and put it through it's paces to see what conclusions I come up with for myself. I've read alot of "internet unreliability" concerning the Kahrs but I'm not sure how reliable that info is. I agree with you that the physical size & caliber make for a very potent concealed carry weapon and I look forward to testing it myself, I'll post my experience with the Kahr on M4C as well. Thanks!
I would really like to get my hands on a Walther PPS and try it out.
Well apparently this purchase is going to have to wait a few months. I went into a big re-loading shop close to me and a Dillon 550B and every possible accessory followed me home. So my money for my next gun purchase(and the one or two after that) got eaten up. I had been looking for a while and finally said, **** it, and bought it all.
You won't be sorry..I've got a 550b I bought about 7-8 yrs ago..It's still running strong, I've loaded 1000's of rounds of ammo (both rifle and pistol ammo) through it without any problems. I've never broken any parts on it. Because I have that machine, I can whip out 100rnds of .45 in about 15-17 minutes.. It might set you back a rifle or pistol purchase now, But a few years from now,you'll probably still have it, and the savings in ammo costs will have more than made up for the rifles or pistols you did'nt buy...
I have a P7M8 and G19 with Milt Sparks VM2s for both. The P7M8 carries so much better than the G19. The G19 feels like a block of wood stuck down into my waistband. The P7M8 feels as it is part of me. The width specifications underestimate the actual feel. Not to mention that the P7M8 makes fast, accurate hits with about half the effort of my Glock. I personally feel that 9mm single stack pistols are ideal for IWB CCW. Double stack is possible, but not pleasant. I think double stacks are great for uniform carry and single stacks are best for CCW.
I just wish that the P7M8 had a Glock finish and Glock simplicity.
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 09:52
Gotta agree, the Walther PPS is an excellent choice. I had one, it didn't like WWB but ran well with other ammo choices.
I have a PPS 9mm in my pocket right now.
I have prob 800-1k rounds through it without failures, for me. My wife, and my friends wife, who both have tiny baby hands have failures with it. Tiny tiny hands, tiny tiny light frame, stiff springs... its a recipe for a gun that is easily limp wristed. Neither of them shot more than 2-3 mags and had multiple failures to feed.
The trigger is very shootable, reminicant of a GLOCK or Ruger SR series.
ThirdWatcher
05-01-10, 15:20
I bought my Walther PPS 9mm back in January. I've only fired WWB and my duty ammo through it, but so far no FTF's.
I've had both a SIG-Sauer P225 and P228; the one I've kept is the P225. While I agree that when judging the two guns by thickness measurements per se the differences are minimal, the two guns when gripped have an entirely different feel. The P225 has an exquisite feel and pointability, at least to me. I'm not in the least condemning the P228; it's also inherently excellent, but I personally prefer the grip, feel and accuracy (at least for me) of the P225 over the P228, and the increased magazine capacity of the P228 I find nice, but not dispositive.
While I have no doubts of the construction of the P239, I personally have never liked their feel enough to purchase one. The OEM grips feel too slab-sided, and switching to Hogue rubber grips made it feel too bulky to me-but it's certainly a viable contender it you like the feel of it, or want a quality compact in .40 and/or .357 SIG. And, my grip complaints could probably be resolved by other available grips.
Because of the differences in mechanical architecture, it's easier to get a lighter DA triggerpull with a P228 compared to a P225, although a smooth (but still somewhat comparatively heavy) P225 triggerpull is certainly achievable.
Regarding the Beretta 92 Compact L Type M, there is an irritatingly protrusive corner on the rear tang; the gun is also fairly expensive, and magazines are often made of unobtanium. When I had mine, I admired the fit, finish, and function, but found it to be somewhat cumbersome, and redundant compared to my concurrently owned P225, Walther P5 and P5C, and HK P7 PSP. The accuracy of mine was not bad, but distinctly average, especailly compared to the others. The coup-de-gras for it was the uncomfortableness of carry even with a quality IWB holster (a Kramer #3 IWB).
While I've never had one, the Smith & Wesson 3913/3914 (and the concurrent Ladysmith and NL {non-Ladysmith labelled versions} have played to some consistantly excellent reviews from people I respect. The Ladysmith/NL varients have, in my opinion, a slightly improved dustcover profile, resembling a Mauser HSC on steroids.
However, at the end of the day, for a slim/downsized concealed carry pistol, I most often choose my 3rd Gen Glock G19. With the right holster, the increased thickness is rendered mostly irrelevant, and it's very light, a welcome characteristic for carry. It's also a strong plus for me that its finish (and its magazines) are impervious to sweat, water, etc.
Best, Jon
My 3913 I posted in another thread:
Dimensions are: 6.75" long, 5.25" high with pinkie extension base pad, 1.1" wide (including slide stop), 1.04" wide grip, 5.25" grip circumference, 1.9" trigger reach in DA, 1.55" in SA, weight is 23 oz empty, 30 oz loaded with 9 Ranger 127 SXT +P+.
Here are some pics of mine with an Accurate Iron grip treatment, melted slide stop, shaved and melted single side safety.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0089.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0090.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0092.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0093.jpg
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