Piston AR's [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

ashooter

03-10-07, 20:05

The HK416 is the best we've tried, followed closely by the LWRC.

Interesting, Doc... Did you shoot the LWRC much suppressed? I had one, sold it and do not miss it at all. My observation is that it extracted too early in the firing cycle so that the chamber actually got dirty faster and started causing fte's at a much lower round count than an equivalent direct impingement gun. The crud in a D.I. gun comes from the gas tube, whereas the crud in my LWRC came straight back from the bore, which was still under pressure when the bolt unlocked, especially when using a suppressor.

So the bolt/carrier looked cleaner, but the gun was more prone to and sensitive to a dirty chamber.

But, I admit I was only around 3 or 4 of them for any length of time and only owned one. The 10.5" chrome-lined LWRC guns seemed to be much less prone to fte's than longer barrels and/or stainless chambers.

MerQ

03-10-07, 21:56

Realistically I don't think the average person who takes decent care of their weapons will notice the difference. The largest advantages seem to come for those who intend to use shorter length barrels and/ or intend to use a suppressor. Either way you can get a "nicer" DI rifle for the same or less money. You can get really customized DI rifle for the priced of a nicely equipped GP one. It isn't really about which is better. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think the disadvantages of DI are blown out of proportion by the GP people and vice versa.

*I personally had a LW rifle on order from the group buy on the "other site." That said I cancelled my order mostly because of customer service or lack of I should say. That's not to say the situation hadn't improved now or that a weapon can't be procured quickly at this time. I think I have a much "better" and "trusted" rifle now (custom Noveske barrel build) for the same money I would have spent on a "basic" GP rifle.

Smokin Joe

03-11-07, 08:02

HK revived the idea, POF has brought to the people, LWRC have produced a very high quality version, and Colt is now selling one.

S/F

I just got back from Ken Elmore's LEO Colt AR-15,M16,M4 Armorer's Course. I asked him specifically when Colt was going to be selling one. He said no time soon (if ever).

So, if you know where I can pick up a Colt piston AR please share the info.

....I hope I didn't come across like an ass I just want one in a BAAAADDD way!

rob_s

03-11-07, 08:27

For most of us, I think that the pistol AR is a solution looking for a problem. People always tell me that they run more reliably after high round counts because they don't "shit where they eat". I've gone nearly 2k rounds through my Colts before cleaning and never had a problem with reliability. If I am ever in a situation where I need to shoot 2k rounds without cleaning, I'm most likely screwed already.

As to the Colt offering, I spent some time talking to a Colt rep at SHOT about this very thing. He said they were still recovering from the egg on their face from promisses they made at SHOT 2006 and were not making any more promises as to release date. He did say that a traditional gas system with the integrated rail forend would be released first, followed by the piston system in the same upper to follow. Take that for whatever it's worth.

Razorhunter

03-11-07, 18:29

Good info Rob S,
Thanks for sharing. I absolutely respect the fact that Colt isn't going to put out a BS release date, like so many other companies are doing these days... I do sure wish Colt would get on it though. That would be the shiznit... I'm quite interested in the integral rail upper too....

USMC03

03-11-07, 23:55

I have no dog in this fight. The gas piston design is something I'm definately interested in. I have only witnessed a small sampleing from one company, but I was not impressed. Others have experienced simular results (lack of reliability):

getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/2921093491?r=6641085491#6641085491

Semper Fi,
Jeff

USMC03

03-11-07, 23:58

The HK416 is the best we've tried, followed closely by the LWRC.

DocGKR,

The HK416 is not currently avalible to Individual Officers. Thus I've been looking at the LWRC, but haven't been able to find much info on this system (ie. people who have used it over a period of time, or have run it hard (like in a class) over a short period of time with a high round count).

Any additional info you could provide on the LWRC system would be greatly appriciated.

Take care and stay safe,
Jeff

Dport

03-12-07, 06:43

Stephen_H

03-12-07, 07:51

DocGKR,

The HK416 is not currently avalible to Individual Officers. Thus I've been looking at the LWRC, but haven't been able to find much info on this system (ie. people who have used it over a period of time, or have run it hard (like in a class) over a short period of time with a high round count).

Any additional info you could provide on the LWRC system would be greatly appriciated.

Take care and stay safe,
Jeff

Jeff,

I've got two LWRC Carbines now and have not had an issue related to the weapon itself with either of them. Give me a call when you get a chance and I'll tell you what I know.

Stephen

Pat_Rogers

03-12-07, 07:55

I agree that the piston guns may be an answer to a question that few have asked...
I have seen a number of 416's put a bunch of rounds downrange and the reliability is impressive.
Intrinsic accuracy may not be, but realistic accuracy is probably sufficient.
Put one next to a Noveske or Larue upper and the intrinsic accuracy of the latter 2 will be outstanding, the former less so but certainly no worse than M1, M14 or other countries service rifles. It will do, and do well.
However, it is an HK, which means little or just arrogant customer service.
Interesting that for what is believed to be a "high end" gun, they chose to go cheap with and aftermarket sized receiver extension.
The POF guns were interesting. Freddie Blish had one that went through at least 4 of my classes as well as several others, and never an issue.
However, several others i have seen ran less well.
I have seen one LW in class (see ashooter's post) and it was unimpressive.
Their shenanigan's on TOS were typical of the company at that time, but having heard the same brand of swill from them at Modern Day Marine and other shows- and even though the "hipfiredgun" was let go, my confidence in the company and the guns is low.

SinnFéinM1911

03-12-07, 08:31

There are a lot of do's and don'ts and wants and whys when it comes to the piston market. Many people say it a answer to a question that was never asked. Well, to tell the truth, the question was asked and this is where the drive in our industry started. The Army I believe started a enhanced M4 program or RFI a couple years ago, and the main question would to increase the durability and reliability of the current systems in use. Many company’s were scared to go out of the box with a new design or even more frightened to dig out one of their old designs and make it current. Then after a few looks at some early systems and some inside the military said yes and some said no, then inter military politics got involved.

Plan and simple, Piston Systems DO increase Chamber Fowling. Piston Systems WILL run longer without cleaning. Piston Systems Do increase the mean number of rounds before replacement parts. No one is asking operators or LE/Commercial shooters to STOP cleaning there guns just because they are shooting a piston gun, the industry is just saying you can increase the life span of your weapon and may keep it running longer in harder situations. Will most people see these types of situations, probably not, but who is to say that the weapons system should not be prepared for that.

Due to my position I can not really say what I think is better than anyone and what I think about HK416, LWRC, POF-USA, Colt or anyone else. I have shot most of the above and many offer great qualities. But I will say, don’t believe everything you read on the error-net. No matter what many people say, someone has someone’s hand in there pocket. Many times the best products are not put forth or recommended by people, they just push what makes them money or gets them free shuag. If you do not see it for yourself, or come from a very trusted source, wait and get some good research done and then make your departments or your own purchase.

nyeti

03-12-07, 19:23

I am first on the list at SAW for a Colt LE1020................I would rather wait and have it work, than be the unhappy guy with a not ready for primetime gun.

I truely appreciate the post by Pat Rogers above, as it echoes everything I have seen at this point, and the reason that I don't own a piston AR. This is another case of where we may be better of starting with a clean slate and building something from the ground up rather than trying to make the AR into something it really isn't.

The HK is one of those things where I think it is probably a great gun, but having spent almost 20 years dealing with HK on trying to support an HK system from a logistics end.......................I just pity the folks who have to get these things running when they get to be very high round count guns and start breaking and parts start to need replacement.

It will be interesting to see where all the players land on this one............there have been so many shenanigans with the piston thing and the company's involved and the interent that I am glad that I'm the dumb ass who is perfectly content with running an impingement gun.

SinnFéinM1911

03-12-07, 23:18

If people replace parts on the Standard PMS, their guns will run fine. It all will depend on how you weald your gun and what your intended use for it is. Most Commercial and Law Enforcement Personal will never see the real advantage of a piston drive system, simply because they will never see heavy combat and the rugged use of a system.

When it comes down to choosing a weapon for your department (Since the most of the military has a real procurement process set by law and not by people making up there own rules to test by) it will depend on many things not just on name recognition and branding. IT should depend on fair testing and a true testament to what a system offers. Again, many systems offer different advantage and some offer none. It’s for you and department to decide over, not a 4K course. Try running them through a 30K to a 90K endurance test or accuracy and then make you decision.

This is a subject way to complicated to decipher on the error-net, but instead for first hand knowledge by a true test.

mmike87

03-14-07, 21:22

Personally, for me - I do not think they are worth almost double for an upper. However, I am not in the desert, under fire, or shooting thousands of rounds of full auto fire, either. My rifles are for target shooting, and if necessary self defense.

In the latter role, considering a partial SHTF scenario, we're probably not talking about sustained conflict either. Otherwise, I'll run out of ammo anyway and all bets are off ... but we're working on that! :)

Everyone's needs are different. Once the concept becomes more popular, it would be nice to settle on a standard of piston operation so we could get some parts interchangeability that will provide for both lower costs and future parts assurances for what are now proprietary systems.

John_Wayne777

03-15-07, 11:00

Are these really that good? Are they worth the extra money? What do you guys think about POF?

Thanks

There are several different designs of piston driven ARs out there, with the "best" of the bunch generally being considered the HK 416. Larry Vickers, I believe, had some input on the design of that particular weapon....

The snag is that nobody can buy the HK 416 because the BATFE decided to be stupid about "machinegun" barrels. :mad:

For the average joe the DI ARs already on the market are more than capable of handling any task thrown at them. Contrary to popular belief, they will run quite well in high round counts and will run quite well when dirty...as long as they are given proper amounts of lubrication.

The guys who I think could benefit most from piston driven ARs are the guys who have to use really short barreled carbines for their day to day duties. SWAT cops, PSD folks and the like. Really short (10-11 inches) ARs tend to have more reliability problems than the longer weapons. Piston driven designs like the 416 are supposed to make those shorty weapons more reliable, and might thus be worth looking at for those guys.

If you aren't tasked with a mission like those guys, then a standard AR is just fine. Buy a good Colt and practice, practice, practice. To be honest, very few people out there have mission requirements that exceed the capabilities of the DI AR system. My AR is certainly much more capable than I am, so I don't worry too much about the piston designs.

Steel_Weasel

03-16-07, 11:43

I've had a LWRC conversion rifle for about over a year now and it runs like a champ with practically no fouling. Having said that however, I NEVER had a problem with a DI M-16/AR-15/M4 either.

From what I know LWRC is trying hard to shake off the reputation that PLW/HFG left them with.

I guess it will be tested next week when I'm slated for a 'high-round/short time' course. I will be bringing a DI M4 as backup.

Dport

03-16-07, 13:52

My second piston upper arrived today. Some may not see the point. I don't see the point of going back to DI, YMMV.

VA_Dinger

03-16-07, 15:08

There are several different designs of piston driven ARs out there, with the "best" of the bunch generally being considered the HK 416. Larry Vickers, I believe, had some input on the design of that particular weapon....

The snag is that nobody can buy the HK 416 because the BATFE decided to be stupid about "machinegun" barrels. :mad:

For the average joe the DI ARs already on the market are more than capable of handling any task thrown at them. Contrary to popular belief, they will run quite well in high round counts and will run quite well when dirty...as long as they are given proper amounts of lubrication.

The guys who I think could benefit most from piston driven ARs are the guys who have to use really short barreled carbines for their day to day duties. SWAT cops, PSD folks and the like. Really short (10-11 inches) ARs tend to have more reliability problems than the longer weapons. Piston driven designs like the 416 are supposed to make those shorty weapons more reliable, and might thus be worth looking at for those guys.

If you aren't tasked with a mission like those guys, then a standard AR is just fine. Buy a good Colt and practice, practice, practice. To be honest, very few people out there have mission requirements that exceed the capabilities of the DI AR system. My AR is certainly much more capable than I am, so I don't worry too much about the piston designs.

Great post

Much of this seems to be lost because of the non-stop & unrelenting Internet forum marketing campaign by one manufacturer of gas piston AR's in particular. I have seen them on everything from industry executive only forums to airsoft forums :confused: with this stuff. It’s really rather ingenious. You don't need dealers, military or LE sales, or even to tell the truth. All you need is an arrangement with various forums staff or owners, a few well-placed high post count Internet forum celebrities (Who may or may not have a clue & certainly being compensated for their efforts), and have your own employees or others associated with the company pound (Without saying they work for the company) every single gas piston thread into submission. Get caught a few times posting complete BS and it’s no big deal - the forum will trash it for you. Get caught enough times and you will need a HFG fall guy though. ;) Even if numerous others were posting the same BS information somebody has to take the fall. :D The HFG fiasco did not slow down this marketing campaign either. It is more than just alive and well.

I’m not sure how many uppers actually get sold this way but it does seem to work to a certain degree.

As for me, I WANT an HK416 - I don't NEED one. My conventional 14.5"+ barreled AR's run just fine.

Seth Harness

03-16-07, 18:05

My second piston upper arrived today. Some may not see the point. I don't see the point of going back to DI, YMMV.

I agree, weapon systems progress. The AR is an excellent weapon, the piston is an excellent idea. I think the two joined are unbeatable.

As far as issues, theres inherent "issues" in every weapon. I cant wait to see new ideas on this concept in the not so distant future . As time progresses current concepts will be perfected or discarted and new ideas will come about and im on board with all that. ;)

Stephen_H

03-16-07, 18:44

Key benefits of piston operated ARs include:

-Increased reliability in short barreled carbines
-Greatly reduced heat transfer to key operating components leading to increased component life and reduced maintenance costs. This contributes to increased reliability by reducing the potential for catastrophic parts failure caused by continued heat stress
-Reduced/eliminated lube "consumption" from searing hot gases blown into operating area.
-greatly reduced cleaning/maintenance
-elimination of "powder eye" caused by gas leakage around charging handle (Slight increase when shooting suppressed, but still much, much better than suppressed DI gun)

I have two LWRC Carbines (I paid for both of them FYI) and I have never been as impressed with a weapon system (especially in the AR configuration). If the LWRC carbines are good enough for Larry Vickers to recommend them as an excellent alternative to the unavailable HK416 that's good enough for me.

Stephen

Razorhunter

03-16-07, 20:25

Couple of things guys:

1. WHO'S got PICS of this LWRC? Inside AND Out??? I would LOVE to see this gun, some good pics, and especially of the inside/guts of the weapon.

2. Pricing/Availability???

3. Can anyone here tell me IF the M1A gas system and the gas system of an AK47, is anywhere NEAR the same functionally, as that of the Gas Piston AR's???? OR, are these ALL totally different systems???

Thanks guys...

John_Wayne777

03-16-07, 21:33

3. Can anyone here tell me IF the M1A gas system and the gas system of an AK47, is anywhere NEAR the same functionally, as that of the Gas Piston AR's???? OR, are these ALL totally different systems???

Technically all of them are piston driven rotating bolt systems, but that is a broad description. The concept is implemented very differently in each of the weapon systems you mention.

John_Wayne777

03-16-07, 21:38

As for me, I WANT an HK416 - I don't NEED one. My conventional AR's run just fine.

That's more or less my feelings on the matter.

Now if I was doing a lot of suppressed shooting or was given the task of outfitting a SWAT team, I would take a long hard look at the piston designs with a desire to get my hands on the 416 if I could...

Razorhunter

03-16-07, 21:45

Thanks John Wayne,
That answer was all I needed to clear things up.... I'm quite intrigued by the gas piston design. Can't WAIT for the Colt to come out. (Unfortunately, it will probably be a day late and a dollar short)...

K.L. Davis

03-17-07, 00:43

Couple of things guys:

1. WHO'S got PICS of this LWRC? Inside AND Out??? I would LOVE to see this gun, some good pics, and especially of the inside/guts of the weapon.

Thanks guys...

You should be able to get info from their website: http://www.lwrifles.com

Probably ask this guy (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4283) if he can send you some pics?

The piston AR is sort of a love/hate thing with me... there are situations where I really like the idea, but they are the exception, not the rule. And I am left with the nagging feeling that a piston AR is a step backwards in many ways... we have had piston ARs for a looooong time time, and they seem to sort of never really make it.

The idea of a piston AR goes back the the early Colt models, and the first real public introduction was the Rhino System -- and a lot of what is out there now is based on that idea. Kurt Walla waded into this many years back now, and his basic design is mirrored in several of the current offerings. I will not get into the whole early LW/HFG/LWRC debacle, but the guys at LWRC have made some changes and are trying really hard to get the stink off of them... give Darren a call and talk to him, super nice guy that I am sure will be happy to give you a few minutes of his time.

The Ares system looks way too much like the early LWRC design (which looked like a few other attempts that people gave up on) for me to get excited about.

Most systems face the same basic problem... the envelope they are working in was just not designed as a piston rifle -- HK sort of broke the mold with their increased rail height, but the G36 piston system they use is a great system.

Frank at POF went his own way with a piston system and is is working well for him... I can say that as far as innovating goes, that guy never sleeps.

There are several other things out there... small "one of" models and design going on -- of course Colt keeps making moves towards the arena, but...

Some companies seem to realize the limitations of the design parent... FN certainly raised the bar with the SCAR, and MagPul wiped the design table clean and came up with their Masada ala SCAR.

Right now, for me anyway, the big consideration is that there is no standard... piston guns are fun to build and play with, but if I had to pick only one AR that I would be stuck with till the ride stops... sure as hell it would not have a piston.

Patrick Floyd

03-17-07, 13:30

I like my LWRC upper. Here is a video of it, on my M16.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt66Sgu7xSQ

Patrick Floyd

03-17-07, 13:37

Here is a 6.8 SPC video

http://lwrifles.com/sixeightqcbc.wmv

TOrrock

03-17-07, 15:17

I don't know if Vickers ever said it was an alternative to the 416.

Jay Cunningham

03-17-07, 15:44

I don't know if Vickers ever said it was an alternative to the 416.

I don't seem to remember hearing him endorse it either...

Dport

03-17-07, 16:12

Frank at POF went his own way with a piston system and is is working well for him... I can say that as far as innovating goes, that guy never sleeps.

The difference between the upper I got less than a year ago and the one I got yesterday is simply amazing.

Patrick Floyd

03-18-07, 02:17

Cool LWRC video!!

http://www.lwrifles.com/Video/LWRC_VIDEO.wmv

I heard that Vickers will be apart of LWRC, this year.

Jay Cunningham

03-18-07, 10:54

Cool LWRC video!!

http://www.lwrifles.com/Video/LWRC_VIDEO.wmv

I heard that Vickers will be apart of LWRC, this year.

:confused:

Paging Mr. Dinger!! Clarification requested from Mr. Dinger!!

Patrick Floyd

03-18-07, 12:53

Dport

03-18-07, 13:14

I heard that Vickers will be apart of LWRC, this year.
I wonder how H&K would feel about that.

K.L. Davis

03-18-07, 15:10

Thats what some one told me. I don't know if its true or, not. The LWRC's and H&K's are very alike. I like LWRC because, you can get them. I still want a 416, just to have. The P.O.F is a great gun too.

This is curious... I think it got started on the TOS and just will not die.

The LWRC uses the AR18 piston system as a retrofit to the current AR (which is a very good piston system).

The HK is really a new/different upper receiver (not a retrofit) that uses the G36 piston system (not at all like the AR18 piston, but by its own rights a great design).

...but I guess you are correct in some way, they can share flash suppressors.

:p

MisterJG

03-18-07, 15:52

I'm just stopping in to clear up some matters:

1) Larry Vickers does own one of our rifles and has done so for a few months.
2) I nor anyone at LWRC are aware of Larry coming on-board. We as a company would be estatic if he did, but the truth of the matter is he's a paid consultant for HK and plans to keep it that way.
3) According to Larry if he is conducting a class where students are employing 416's, he teaches it with his 416. If he is teaching a course where the student body aren't running 416's, he uses his LWRC set-up. Why instruct a course with tools that are not available to the common Joe.

Quote from Brando's after action report:

"The carbine class had a similar "crawl, walk, run" structure starting with trigger control, sight alignment, reloading, malfunctions, turning engagements and shooting on the move. Larry's good at stressing a fine balance between speed and accuracy, with a bias towards the latter. He uses the "aim small, miss small" principle with benefits that become apparent when you start tearing your targets down. I ran into two problems with my particular setup on the second day. First, my EOTech started toggling on/off after shots, undoubtedly due to a bad connection, which actually resulting in some good BUIS transition opportunities. My MRP also became unreliable towards the very end of the carbine class. So much so that Larry just had me use his Leitner-Wise setup which I have to say was pretty impressive. If you haven't shot a piston AR before, it's a slightly different feel, but man it ran like a champ."

Quote extracted from this link: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3006044761/m/4161034203

Maybe VaDinger can verify or disprove my posting.

BTW- The closest thing we have in common with the HK system is the fact that they are both self-regulating short stroke operations.

Thanks,
Jesse
LWRC

Dport

03-18-07, 16:17

Looks like we have the expertise here, so I'll ask the stupid question. What is the difference between the LWRC and H&K. To be honest, I have only seen both for a very brief period and really didn't pay attention.

Thanks.

Patrick Floyd

03-18-07, 16:33

Thanks for clearing things up. I have seen the H&K and, LWRC's piston's setups. They looked alike to me. What do I know! lol I feel LWRC has a great product. I really like the self-regulating piston. The G36 is also self-regulating and, so is the AR18. So in my little mind, they were alike, to me at least. Again, I'm all new to the short-stroke piston. I would like to find out more about them. I'm just happy with, our SRT upper. I'm sorry if I started any, trouble by saying that about Mr. Vickers.I was told that at a gun show, awhile back.

Razorhunter

03-18-07, 19:33

Guys,
Is it a fact that Hk will never offer the 416 to the civilian market (in a semi version of course), or is there a CHANCE it might happen??? OR, is it even possible to make an "educated assumption" here???

Patrick Floyd

03-20-07, 13:41

VA_Dinger

03-20-07, 14:16

So far H&K wont sell the 416 to us. Not even a upper. I have shot one, its a good gun. I would love to have one. For right now I will stay with, my LWRC. You can get those. I really want is a QCB piston upper. That would be nice!

- It's the ATF that’s stopping HK416 sales – NOT HK – People should be blaming their own government for classifying even the uppers as "Machine Gun Parts"

Hopefully that is going to change in 2007. :cool:

- Mil & Federal can get complete weapons & upper kits
- Local & State LE can get complete weapons.

They are exempt from the importation ban. HK is turning them out as fast as they can and they are STILL back ordered for 4-5 months. Aparenently a lot of Mil & LE are ordering them.

Many members of M4C have handled & shot the HK416.

Hint - We know it works.

This thread also is NOT going to be become another infomercial.

Since you already posted in your sig line (and later edited out) that your one of the two LWRC dealers in the world that would be considered SPAM on this board.

But I do appreciate you proving my earlier point though. ;)

Stephen_H

03-20-07, 15:32

VA Dinger,

I had typed out a long post calling you lots of funny names, but I figured it wasn't worth it. I will say that I bet it just eats you up inside that your idol is demo-ing LWRC guns at his classes. I'm sorry that LWRC doesn't live up to whatever standard you are holding them to, but I can assure you that they are an organization with good people that just want to make great guns for the guys that need them. While my cheerleading is getting old for you I'm sure, I think many more of us are tired of seeing you berate them at every opportunity. Have you even met any of them? Have you shot their rifles?

I'll leave it alone now, but just know that it's not considered very professional to brow beat a company that is supporting gun owners, turning out a quality product, and has taken considerable measures to make sure that the team they have is the team they want representing the company online and with mil/LEO clients. For the record I don't get compensated in any way by LWRC, my company does not sell or endorse LWRC products, and I have paid for all the LWRC products I own. I have met Darren, Jesse, and some of the others in person and find them to be good, honest individuals that are working extremely hard to provide a quality product.

I hope you get your HK416. I'd like one too.:)

Stephen

Dport

03-20-07, 15:49

... is demo-ing LWRC guns at his classes.

When and where did this happen?

VA_Dinger

03-20-07, 16:26

Stephen_ATS,

That's funny.

I don’t have “Idols” - I have family & friends. That’s all I will ever need in this world.

Patrick Floyd (LWRC dealer) gets caught SPAMing our board under the cover of “Just another guy” and your pissed off at me?

Real Story: A certain someone has a T&E LWRC rifle. Who turns down a free gun? He shot 700 rounds through it and used it while teaching one class. It has worked so far. It's not a HK416, but it is available now if somebody wants a gas piston AR.

End of story.

Anything else is LWRC marketing BS. I would not want to be on the receiving end of that phone call if this continues.

For the record: I do not dislike LWRC products - I dislike the BS Internet forum crap that comes with them. Unfortunately the two seem to go hand in hand. Jesse seems to be the only employee who distances himself from such horseshit. Plus he clearly states that he works for LWRC. That is why he can post about them all day long on M4C.

If I ever posted a complete list of all the dumbass marketing crap that has been posted by several of them over the past two years it would get them horse laughed off any credible forum.

My advice to LWRC - Throw away your computers and just build guns. Your credibility would be allot better off.

FYI - I've seen you trash threads & lock too many accounts on your forum concerning anything negative to LWRC to call you impartial. LWRC seems to be the only company you protect in such a fashion. This is the #1 reason I stopped visiting it. If I cannot trust the information I'm reading on a forum what's the point?

If you aren’t being compensated they got you cheap.

- This will be my last post in this thread. Arguing on the Internet is a waste of my time. I’ve said my peace on the subject.

M4Guru

03-20-07, 17:48

I can guarantee you if you post a legitimate gripe about LW or a technical question/concern about a LW rifle it will not be locked nor will you be banned. I got hosed by a LW dude on a private transaction, and was unimpressed by the HFG thing enough that I would never own one out of pure distrust. Whether that's a correct assumption or not is my call to make. As one of the 3 site admins over there, I'll vouch for Stephen 100% that there is no bias towards or against LW on Lightfighter. He simply states his experience, which has been very favorable. No admin or mod will on LF.net will tolerate a bunch of guys bitching about who's piston upper is better (based on no real experience) cluttering up the forums. It's not productive. That is what gets threads and accounts locked, when someones feelings get hurt and they decide to call each other stupid for 4 pages.

As to what Larry Vickers uses...his knowledge is A great resource, not THE ONLY great resource.

-H-

03-20-07, 17:55

I've been sitting on the fence quietly watching over the Piston Concept for years. I don't own any. The main benefits as I understand, are: "Better" Reliability, Cleaner/Cooler, Less Gas blowback when shooting suppressed. I personally don't have any of these problems with my AR15's. So a Piston would add, more front end weight, more moving parts which are not readily available and I would assume the piston's movement would have a negative effect on barrel harmonics, which matters to me since all my AR's have Freefloated barrels, even my carbine.

In my opinion if you seek a more reliable AR15 your money would be better spent on high quality parts/springs and spending your money on good ammo and good mags.

Piston's are hyped way out of proportion with their actual benefit due to Internet Forums being a cheap way to advertise and spread positive rumors/BS about their products.

Someone post a video of some dumbass dumping a couple of 30 rounders through a DI AR15 without malfunctions then rubbing the BCG on his face. The past 50 years of successful use mean nothing because there are no gimics.

M4Guru

03-20-07, 18:07

I agree about the DI not really being a problem most of the time.

I shoot an M4 enough very regularly that it gets so nasty it starts to malfunction and it's hard to keep it lubed due to the heat burning it off. I need that cleanliness, and low heat. The HK416 has been run hard as hell by people I know, trust, and work beside. It cures my one gripe about the platform...I need more rounds fired between maintenance than I am getting currently.

Someone wiser than me explained how some piston ARs are/could be potentially the ONLY free floated ARs. If it has a DI gas tube it is not free-floated technically, it just has a tube which takes the stress of the handguard and accessories and places them on the barrel nut/upper as opposed to the barrel. The gas block and gas tube which contact the upper, gas key, and CH make it not "free floating". I'll try to dig up that post and copy it over here to see if it makes sense, he's more articulate than me.

K.L. Davis

03-20-07, 18:52

M4Guru...

I am sure I know what you speak of about pistons being the real "free float", but tend to disagree to some extent.

I guess the whole thing boils down to *what* a "free float" barrel is... but we do have decades of practical experience to help us define it: I will offer that traditionally a "free floated barrel" is that which is set up to not rely on pressure points in front of the chamber for accuracy.

But the AR family has a little bit of an ulterior motive... that being to take the stress of the sling/handguard/optics/doo-dads off of the barrel -- barrels flex, but then so does the upper receiver... heck some guys think the R700 action needs another inch of barrel support.

I've got a little insight into this whole barrel/receiver flex issue with the rifle, and I have argued the merits of both DI and Piston for several years... one of the classic arguments, was on TOS, when I (as Gunzilla) would argue with the propaganda mavens of PLW (HFG et al).

I get a kick out of how in the eyes of some folks, the piston upper is a magical device that seems to predict the needs of the shooter and adjust itself to those needs... now keep in mind, I am indeed a fan of pistons in certain applications, for shorter barrels/gas systems and predominantly full auto fire the piston is the best choice -- I have had piston ARs of one sort or another for a looong time, I have advocated piston development and have a few developments of my own. I just argue that living within the envelope of the parent rifle limits just how much can be done.

Now, I may not be the brightest light in the harbor, but I know the difference between chicken shit and chicken salad -- Here is one example: PLW (as himself) was trying to convince folks that his rifle was not subject to the opposing piston forces that cause vertical stringing...

...let me stop here a second. Pistons do impart pressure on the barrel and deflect it away from the side that the piston is on, no big secret, no mystery... how much it deflects the barrel may or may not matter and most find that a slightly heavier barrel takes care of that problem, just look under the handguards of the 416...

Okay, back to the regular program... anyway PLW tells me that his rifle is not effected because in testing with HSVid, they found that the bullet is fully out of the barrel before the piston starts to move -- But how can that be? If this is true then the piston and associated parts certainly can not be free and "floating" while the bullet is traveling down the barrel?

How is this possible? Simple, it is not... One claim is right and the other is wrong, that later being the now famous internet marketing BS hyperbole that has swirled around the bowl for so long now that it is sucking folks in (and down) with it.

So which claim is right? Who cares... the fact that no one can dispute is that the piston does not start to move until the bullet is past the gas port, and this is usually at least 7.5 inches from the breach -- in that time, the barrel harmonics are well started.

So why does all of this matter? It doesn't... A lot of folks act like the idea of a piston is a new thing (or even worse, that they thought of it) -- piston ARs are old hat, the T65 has been running a piston on the M16 for longer than the internet has been around to make assumptions about the design one way or the other...

I guess we (gun nuts) need to have something to argue about though... I mean the 9mm vs. 45ACP thing raged for years, and in the end most folks discovered that one is good for one thing, and the other good for something else -- much like almost everything in life. There is no magic...

So, I see it like this: Duct Tape or Zip Ties? Well... hell, depends on what you want to do, but either will work if that is all you have.

Patrick Floyd

03-20-07, 19:02

I'm sorry if I started any trouble. Yes, we are a stocking LWRC dealer. I took it out , so I would not get blamed for spaming. I like LWRC's products. I also like H&K's products. I think pistons are a great way to go. POF,LWRC or, H&K. Again I'm sorry for any trouble I have done. I think I was not "spaming" I was just letting you guys know that I like my piston upper. What I say or, post is not LWRC. Thank you for clearing things up on H&K and, the BATF. I didn't know that.

Dport

03-20-07, 19:07

S-1

03-20-07, 19:08

I agree about the DI not really being a problem most of the time.

I shoot an M4 enough very regularly that it gets so nasty it starts to malfunction and it's hard to keep it lubed due to the heat burning it off. I need that cleanliness, and low heat. The HK416 has been run hard as hell by people I know, trust, and work beside. It cures my one gripe about the platform...I need more rounds fired between maintenance than I am getting currently.

M4Guru,

Just out of curiosity, at what round count and rate of fire are you experiencing the malfunctions? The only negative things I've heard about the HK416 is weight and that it does not suppress as well as the DI guns. What are your thoughts on that? I've never handled one so that is just what I've read.

Thanks.

K.L. Davis

03-20-07, 19:22

Can someone explain to me the difference between the LWRC piston system, the Ares and the HK 416. I can tell the difference between the POF and all of these. Also how does the POF differ from the FAL?

I have some pictures, but have no idea what hard drive they are on... but for now:

1. LWRC and Ares use an AR18 design, it is often called a "cup and spigot" design. If you think of it this way, the spigot (piston) is attached to the gas block and the cup (cylinder) sets over it... the cup (cylinder) is actually what moves. The cylinder has vent holes that open to the atmosphere once it moves so far... and vent the gas off from these holes. BTW: During firing, the cup never is completely "aft and clear" of the spigot.

2. The G36 (despite what you read all over the internet) is different from the AR18 design, enough so that it is patented and HK owns the rights to use it. It is a very sharp design in which the cylinder is part of the gas block and the piston sets inside of it -- the piston is the part that moves, very traditional. What is unique is that on the front of the piston, there is a small nipple that plugs a hole in the bottom of the cylinder... as the piston moves back, it unplugs this hole and the gases are vented out the front of the gas block. The design regulates well.

3. POF is not that much different from the FAL, one distinct advantage is the front loaded piston can be removed and cleaned without having to remove semi-permanent handguards.

chinook

03-20-07, 19:25

I have been intersted in the piston AR platform myself lately. I must confess that I am a huge AK fan, however, I am a firearms enthusiast first and foremost. I have been entertaining the POF the most as there seems to be more published articles on it to base my decision on.

Having said all of the above, I just read a quick review/write-up on a Bushmaster piston AR. Does anyone have any info or first hand experience with theirs? If so, what are the comparisons and contrasts between theirs and everybody elses?

Thanks for any info!

Dport

03-20-07, 19:28

snip

Thank you.
You explained it so even this engineering drop out could understand.:)

rob_s

03-20-07, 19:56

Someone wiser than me explained how some piston ARs are/could be potentially the ONLY free floated ARs. If it has a DI gas tube it is not free-floated technically, it just has a tube which takes the stress of the handguard and accessories and places them on the barrel nut/upper as opposed to the barrel. The gas block and gas tube which contact the upper, gas key, and CH make it not "free floating". I'll try to dig up that post and copy it over here to see if it makes sense, he's more articulate than me.

If the gas tube was rigidly fixed to the upper I might buy that, but since it's only pinned at one end...

Patrick Floyd

03-20-07, 19:58

Thanks for the great info! I took out the shop's post-sample G36 and, my friend's AR180. Looking at it side by side I understand now. I also down loaded a manual for the G36. Thanks again for all the help!

M4Guru

03-20-07, 20:05

S-1,

Shooting green tip, I usually start having malfunctions around 750-1000 rounds. Around 1000-1250 or so I start to have bad reliability issues. It's hard to get guns replaced these days without some PFC at maintenance telling me I'm wrong and giving me my guns back in the same shape.:rolleyes:

Keep in mind these guns are the same ones that were shooting pre 9/11. Budget cuts rock. Guns with a lower round count fare slightly better, but their comes a point where enough carbon cakes a DI bolt to make it not work well regardless of lube.

I have seen 416s shoot thousands of rounds without cleaning. I know guys personally who clean them every 10K rounds, and even then just because. I have not really heard of any negatives of the 416 other than costing more than plutonium by the ounce for one on the civilian market. I have not heard of any functional issues with the LW guns either. I like the fact that they have a standard height rail as opposed to a raised one as well, olus their piston is easy to get to.

M4Guru

03-20-07, 20:12

If the gas tube was rigidly fixed to the upper I might buy that, but since it's only pinned at one end...

Pull your gas tube and check where it lines up with the clover-shaped gas tube port on the receiver, it will have rub marks where it moves during firing. It's not "fixed" at the rear per say, but it is interlocked with the bolt carrier key when the bolt is closed.

I guess you have to take into context what "free float" means on various operating systems. There is no way to float an AR barrel in the sense of a bolt gun(IE the only contact on that barrel is where it is screwed into the receiver) due to the gas system.

-H-

03-20-07, 20:53

M4guru, are you saying the gas tube moves horizontally while firing?

M4Guru

03-20-07, 21:04

To a certain degree, yeah it moves as the barrel and receiver flex. Not more than a milimeter or likely less, but very slight movement vertically as well as horizontally, enough to contact the four points which the tube is centered in.

M4Guru

03-20-07, 21:08

quote:
Do remember that the only point the gas tube on an AR is firmly attached to anything is at the gas block, and that it otherwise is free to move *longitudinally* in the passage into the upper receiver, and that if assembled correctly, the tube then passes into the gas key without interference. So, it may be that the gas tube floats with the barrel and does not significantly impede it in its isolation during firing.

Also, please remember that in order for a barrel to enjoy the moniker of "free floating", the barrel cannot be in contact with anything that might effect (not necessarily impede) it's ability to go through it's "whipping" motion in order for it to return to it's original start position (I've heard it referred to this as it's "neutral position"). At the gas tube entrance port in the upper receiver, the gas tube WILL make contact with the star shaped port--it's just the natural effect of the barrels motion (PHYSICS). Although, the gas tube will move "longitudinally", it just can't help but touch the receiver at that point. Having said all of this...remember this discussion isn't about accuracy exclusively, but rather more to the point of the traditional direct drive impingement AR platforms barrel being described as a "free floating" system in contrast to a different drive system...the accuracy or lack there of, of the traditional AR system can be discussed using the inability of the barrel to free float, but isn't the main point I was driving at. My effort is more at driving the point that an AR barrel just doesn't "free float" in the traditional sense of the moniker itself...sorry--IT'S ALL ABOUT PHYSICS. As a very accomplished engineer once told me, "physics just can't be changed because you want something to happen. If it doesn't happen because of physics, that just means its Sir Isaac Newton telling you to **** off"...

This is from RgrGordo from Lightfighter forums.

-H-

03-20-07, 21:16

Oh I see, you meant movement in reference to a true free floating barrel which is impossible with semi autos. I thought you were trying to say that a gas tube disrupts the barrel harmonics as much as a piston, which would be ridiculous because the piston's movement is at the gas port. Like KL Davis has proven, the whole damn weapon can flex.:D

ashooter

03-20-07, 21:50

LWRC's Jesse built me a true "frankengun" about a year ago. DIRECT IMPINGEMENT and it's digested about 4000 rds without any trouble. I can't say the same about the LW piston gun I had.

Trust me and save some money and grief. Piston AR's are pounding a square peg into a roound hole - If you beat it hard enough, you can probably get it in, but it's not ever gonna fit.

Dport

03-20-07, 21:51

Stephen_H

03-21-07, 09:44

I dislike the BS Internet forum crap that comes with them. Unfortunately the two seem to go hand in hand.

I agree. I wish that people would allow the HFG incident to die and let the guys that had nothing to do with it get back to making guns. Maybe the LWRC crew spends so much time online because they are constantly having to defend notions that they lied about their products, misrepresented themselves, and are negotiating with the devil himself. The only person ever proven to be responsible for the lies and deceit was terminated by the board immediately as soon as their investigation was complete.

The fact that the remaining crew is using the internet to spread awareness about their product is true. They would be stupid not to use such a dynamic and wide-ranging marketing tool. I do the same thing for our ATS brand product line.

Lastly, LAV has my number and can give me a call anytime if he believes that I have spoken in error or outside my lane about his views on LWRCs products. All I did was pass along to the buying public the information that he had given me two or three weeks ago. Actually, I'll see him next weekend (March 31st and April 1st) at a class he is putting on for Blue Force Gear. I'll be sure to smooth things over with him;).

Stephen

rob_s

03-21-07, 10:24

My banning at TOS was in part related to my openly stated opinion (on this board as well as theirs ironically) of the way they handled that whole "HFG" situation.:D

I'm in no rush to buy any piston guns, but LWRC will always be at the bottom of my list.

SinnFéinM1911

03-21-07, 11:11

This is from RgrGordo from Lightfighter forums.

You can not really look at it that way. If you want to break it down that way, you then have say well if the barrel is connected to the rifle at all (it would need magic :confused: ), it is not truly free floating.

Its you take the "whipping" notion, it is so fast, by the time the "whip" occurs the gas has recoiled the rifle and the projectile has already left the bbl. So the accuracy of the round and the free-floating capability of a direct gas system with a free-floating bbl is not compromised. The Physics is true, but you have to think of when the action meets reaction. The gas is pushing the projo, so in fact the gas as ignition is pushing the projo as fast as it can, but after that it is already losing speed. So when the projo hits its MaxVel, the gas is already moving slower and then dissipating into nothing.

A big reason for Free-floating systems on and weapon whether Piston or Gas Impingement, is to keep weight and pressures of the bbl. ie. sling attachments, shooting form the prone on sandbags or in the case of non-free-float systems forward pistol grips and flashlight. I don’t think I need to go through them all, we all know why. But these affect the projectile as they leave the bbl, not while the weapon is recoiling and then coming back to battery (when the gas tube, as above stated is effected).

I could be wrong, just my 2 cents....

rob_s

03-21-07, 11:44

This is from RgrGordo from Lightfighter forums.

That whole thing makes my head hurt.

Talk about analyzing a thing to death, overthinking a simple thing, and going WAY beyond the law of diminishing returns.

MerQ

03-21-07, 12:30

I personally believe LWRC troubles came waaaaay before the HFG incident with that just being the icing on the cake to and making the whole cookie crumble. I think what got them their reputation was the constant "marketing" of their piston design over the negatives of DI with the added factor that they were pretty much unobtainable with the exception of their inside circle of shooters. I personally was on the group buy list for 11 months without hearing a word from them. I then get an email from them asking me to confirm my rifle configuration and a promise delivered date by April 1. Well I didn't hear anything else from them until July of that year when I get a phone call asking for payment because my rifle was finally finished. At that point of waiting for 14 months that I was originally given an expected build time of 4 months, not only had I forgotten about it but I didn't want to deal with them at all as a company. I'm sure they make a decent product but CS was deplorable at best. That's not to say they were ever rude to me ever... it was quite the opposite and they are all friendly people. That said as a business you can't constantly run behind projected deadlines without keeping everyone in the loop (like the old town mechanic who had to work on the vehicle 3 or 4 times before really getting it right) and expect to be extremely successful.

I don't wish misfortune on them or anyone at all and I hope they get it together and perfect their system. It was kind of discouraging as a potential customer seeing them constantly display all of these "concept" weapons (most of them using obscure calibers) on their forums and constantly "shooting the shit" with forum regulars when rifles could have and should have been in the process of being built. This is just my personal opinion but it's what led to me canceling my order and them being out of $1600 that I put towards a DI rifle with Denny which I feel has better parts overall (Noveske barrel, LMT BCG, Larue Tactical Rail and Optics mount) on top of a rack grade rifle.

ashooter

03-21-07, 15:43

While I agree that for most civilian applications DI does just fine, but taking your sample size of one and making a broad generalization just doesn't wash.

Granted. My sample size was one, BUT I had the advantage of being able to shoot with Darren and Jesse at least a half-dozen times, and deal with some other people who are waaaaaay above and beyond me in the realm of firearms design and building custom AR's. So my observations and 2nd-hand info totals up to about 8-10. Admittedly a small sampling, but relatively large considering there probably were only 20-30 in non-LW civilian hands at the time.

When I saw even the chrome-lined 10.5's ripping off case rims and leaving cases stuck in chambers, I just assumed it was because of crappy ammo. A year later, I had compiled and digested enough info that I theorized that the system was camming the bolt so early in the firing cycle that the case was still expanded against the chamber walls so the extractor was cutting through the case rims.

Some people have not had any problems. Great. If you have one and are happy, GREAT. I just hate to see anybody have to deal with all the crap I had to deal with based on what I honestly believe is a design flaw. If they made the piston cup larger and/or moved the gas port farther forward, I think it might work as advertised. As it was when I had 1st-hand experience with it, it was absolutely NOT what was advertised.

I want to be clear that I'm not painting the people at LWRC with the HFG brush. They hate that scumbag more than anybody does. I geniunely LIKE Darren and Jesse and I hope they succeed. BUT, unless that system has been significantly reworked, I think it's nowhere near as reliable as a high quality D.I. system.

We all know what is out there for DI AR's and we know the idiosyncracies of that system. What I'm saying is that THIS piston system (LWRC), at the time I was using/observing it, had it's own set of idiosyncracies - stainless steel barrel would cause problems, suppressor use would cause problems, increased barrel length caused problems, the hotter the ammo the more fte's (mine would ONLY cycle SAAMI ammo with anything remotely resembling reliability), mine was MORE sensitive to a dirty chamber than any DI gun I've ever owned because of the early extraction....

I have valid reasons for trying to save people some grief and $$$. If you think I'm full of crap... well, 2 years ago I would have thought I was full of crap too. Just ask VA-Dinger.

as always - YMMV.

:cool:

Dport

03-21-07, 15:57

Granted. My sample size was one, BUT I had the advantage of being able to shoot with Darren and Jesse at least a half-dozen times, and deal with some other people who are waaaaaay above and beyond me in the realm of firearms design and building custom AR's. So my observations and 2nd-hand info totals up to about 8-10. Admittedly a small sampling, but relatively large considering there probably were only 20-30 in non-LW civilian hands at the time.

When I saw even the chrome-lined 10.5's ripping off case rims and leaving cases stuck in chambers, I just assumed it was because of crappy ammo. A year later, I had compiled and digested enough info that I theorized that the system was camming the bolt so early in the firing cycle that the case was still expanded against the chamber walls so the extractor was cutting through the case rims.

Some people have not had any problems. Great. If you have one and are happy, GREAT. I just hate to see anybody have to deal with all the crap I had to deal with based on what I honestly believe is a design flaw. If they made the piston cup larger and/or moved the gas port farther forward, I think it might work as advertised. As it was when I had 1st-hand experience with it, it was absolutely NOT what was advertised.

I want to be clear that I'm not painting the people at LWRC with the HFG brush. They hate that scumbag more than anybody does. I geniunely LIKE Darren and Jesse and I hope they succeed. BUT, unless that system has been significantly reworked, I think it's nowhere near as reliable as a high quality D.I. system.

We all know what is out there for DI AR's and we know the idiosyncracies of that system. What I'm saying is that THIS piston system (LWRC), at the time I was using/observing it, had it's own set of idiosyncracies - stainless steel barrel would cause problems, suppressor use would cause problems, increased barrel length caused problems, the hotter the ammo the more fte's (mine would ONLY cycle SAAMI ammo with anything remotely resembling reliability), mine was MORE sensitive to a dirty chamber than any DI gun I've ever owned because of the early extraction....

I have valid reasons for trying to save people some grief and $$$. If you think I'm full of crap... well, 2 years ago I would have thought I was full of crap too. Just ask VA-Dinger.

as always - YMMV.

:cool:

I was referring specifically to your contention that piston ARs are pounding a square peg in a round hole. That's based on ONE gas piston design. The HK 416 has a better track record. My POF has a better track record. And IIRC the Taiwanese and Koreans have been using piston AR derivatives for quite some time now.

shark31

03-21-07, 17:50

First off, I probably won't buy an any gas piston rifles until there is a true retro-fit system made by an established company.

Secondly, I am disgusted at the marketing campaign used by most of the gas piston manufacturers in that it degrades troop confidence in their weapon systems. HK's marketing in particular I equate to being about as constructive to our troops as a Non-Binding resolution. YMMV.

Crash

03-21-07, 20:51

I'm on the list for a 1020 at Knesek Guns, and have been for over a year. It may be a couple more years before I actually see a rifle. I'm holding out for the Colt. I know they say past performance is not necessarily a good indicator of future performance, but I am quite satisfied with the quality of my 6920.

I have no industry experience and am nobody, except someone who enjoys shooting. I have no manufacturing experience, but the Colt design seems to be very simular to the G36/416 design... to my untrained eye. At least the piston portion. These are some photos that I got from TOS, and specifically I credit to SMGLee.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/colt1020piston1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/colt1020piston2.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/1020_Piston3.jpg

Can anyone more informed/experienced than I comment on the differences between the Colt 1020 and the HK416? The 1020 design holds the most interest for me because I believe from my limted knowledge that it seems to be the best design, that I will actually have a chance to purchase.

KevinB

03-21-07, 22:42

Earlier HK416 version

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/SHOT2004057.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/HKM4-6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/HKM4-5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/HKM4-4.jpg

There were a lot of rumours on when the Colt M5 popped up - that Dick Swan had given Colt a peak at the Hk416 (when it was the HkM4C or whatever) when they where looking for a rail system and sent him one to SIR.

Razorhunter

03-21-07, 23:25

MerQ

03-22-07, 00:42

Couple of things here guys.

First off, pardon me, but can someone tell me what "TOS" is??? I keep reading about info that comes from there, or quotes, etc, and I'm wondering what this place is? Another forum I suspect?

"TOS" = ????

Secondly, is it pretty much a FACT, that we will probably never see a civilian version of the Hk 416 and 417's???

Yeah TOS is another very popular weapon forum. As for the HK416/17 it doesn't look promising but I would love nothing more than to make the HK417 my first 7.62 x 51mm rifle. I'm really big on HK's... some may call me a fanboy but I never had any problems with any of mine.

VA_Dinger

03-22-07, 00:52

Secondly, is it pretty much a FACT, that we will probably never see a civilian version of the Hk 416 and 417's???

Time will tell. ;)

KevinB

03-22-07, 06:21

TOS= ARF.com

WRT Civilains hk416/Hk417's I think you will find Hk will realise that finacially they are stupid not to build a plant in the US and market them commercially.

The Hk417 would eat the 7.62x51mm market, and we have already seen that some will pay 5k+ for uppers -- given the LE/MIL price is $1080(ish) and that has profit built in...
Hk could build and sell them for 2k and make a ton of cash.

I gather that several people are vigorously pointing this out to the Hk managment.

mmike87

03-22-07, 11:21

I do not understand the huge cost premium with the piston rifles. Are these few extra parts really THAT much more expensive to manufacture?

SinnFéinM1911

03-22-07, 14:06

Comparatively speaking they are not that much more. If you look at taking a M4 and dressing it up with a free floating rails and quality back up iron sights, you are close to or at the same cost. You need to compare apples to apples (beyond the obvious system itself whether it’s DI or Piston).

MerQ

03-22-07, 14:20

There's also the development cost for adapting the new system plus they have to pay for the marketing, whether it's the ad agency, gun magazine ad spreads, or time spent getting the word out about their new system. The poster above me is right that the cost is pretty comparable to a "pimped out" DI setup. Usually the people complaining about the "high cost" are looking at the absolute least expensive options (Model 1, DPMS, basic manufacturer models, DIY, etc.) While those options can be readily had in the $700 range a decent setup is going to run you about $1000-1300 for a good quality AR. You are paying about a $300-500 premium or so for the equivalent GP AR and about the same price for a "premium" AR.

blake6551

03-22-07, 14:55

Slightly off topic, how does LAV get to keep a 416? I know he is a HK consultant, but how does he get around the importation ban?

Curious minds want to know.

SinnFéinM1911

03-22-07, 15:54

I do not understand the huge cost premium with the piston rifles. Are these few extra parts really THAT much more expensive to manufacture?

Also, its not just a "few" parts. if you look at the HK416, its a entirly NEW upper receiver, Bolt Carrier, The entire Piston Group. The lower reciever and buttsotck is pretty much the only items that are the same. As goes for the rest of the companies to a extent. Also with the SCAR you have almost a entire new system.

As more parts get made and more hit the street you may see a cost decrease or maybe not, it goes to cost and demand. If the demand stays that high then why lower the price ?

UPSguy

03-22-07, 15:58

Could it be that everyone thinks they want a piston AR and that is why the prices are so high? OK, sarcastic mode off now.

SinnFéinM1911

03-22-07, 18:40

Could it be that everyone thinks they want a piston AR and that is why the prices are so high? OK, sarcastic mode off now.

I guess Wants vs Needs vs Requirments is the real question !

John_Wayne777

03-22-07, 20:02

Slightly off topic, how does LAV get to keep a 416? I know he is a HK consultant, but how does he get around the importation ban?

Curious minds want to know.

I would imagine the same way that H&K gets to keep them. By working for a company you have the ability to T&E the products it makes. When you are a manufacturer or work for a manufacturer you have more freedom in what you can get and what you can't.

He is also going for his Class II manufacturer's license which will give him a great deal of freedom.

TOrrock

03-22-07, 20:09

I guess Wants vs Needs vs Requirments is the real question !

Unfortunately, my wants far outstrip my wallet.........:o

Seth Harness

03-22-07, 21:36

I think there's needs vs. wants going back and forth here. I put a retro-fit kit in my gun, reliable through the sandbox and back, probably not. I dont need that though, nor do half the other people that own ar's. If your actively engaged in some way, of course, by all means have the super duper ultra best, I would especially if it meant my ass. I dont think theres anything wrong with wanting to get to know an operating system better and purchasing it to get acqainted. If the gun dosent work right you can always go back home and tinker with it, clean it or whatever. You and I could buy the same rifle, You could love it and I could hate it or vise-versa, it dosent matter, Nothing beats personal experience. My point is buy what you want because you want it not because someone tells you it sucks or that it's the best one you can buy. Do your own research and get what you think is practical, fit, function, monetary expense etc.

f.2

03-22-07, 21:42

ot, and fyi, but I had no idea what the HFG deal was and had to search. The first google "I'm feeling lucky" hit with "LWRC HFG" revealed:

AR15.com - Freudulent accounts and non disclosure of interests (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11329&postcount=20), www.65grendel.com forum post, member WalkerTexasRanger.

Complete thread here: AR15.com - Freudulent accounts and non disclosure of interests (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=983)

Larry Vickers

03-22-07, 22:12

Gents

I heard my name was mentioned here alot and I want to weigh in on this topic;

1) I am still a consultant for HK

2)I have 2 HK416 uppers (10 & 14.5 inch) - not complete weapons - yet

3)I have an LWRC SRT gun that I have been using some lately that runs like a champ; it would be my first choice in a piston AR of what is currently available since the HK416 is not

4) A Colt 6920 is a very good gun ( I used one for a long time while instructing) and is just fine for most civilian and LE users - just keep it lubed

5) I recommend a piston AR for the following;

a) barrel length less than 14.5 inches
b) extensive full auto fire
c) wide variety of ammo being used
d) suppressed use

6) I hope the HK416 & 417 will be available to civilians and individual LE officers someday - I have campaigned tirelessly for this since the 416 was introduced

7) The 416 would be my first choice in a 5.56mm assault rifle if given the option

8) I have seen alot of ammo shot out of a 416 (probably more than anyone in the USA) - and in my experience it is MORE accurate than a DI AR - I have seen a 10 inch 416 shoot minute of angle from a machine rest at the factory after being fired 12,000 rds during a lot acceptance test - I, like others who witnessed it, would never have believed it is I had not seen it myself

9) The spec ops users of the 416 I train and know love the gun except for the weight (it has a fairly heavy barrel under that rail system) - HK is offering a lighter profile barrel as an option now

Hope this clears some things up

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

nyeti

03-22-07, 22:18

Hey Larry, thank you for the first hand response. This is the easiest way to seperate internet rumor from first hand expereince. How is Hk set for logistical support on the system?

Razorhunter

03-22-07, 23:06

TOrrock

03-22-07, 23:14

Can someone explain to me how it is we can have HK USP 45's and other Hk weapons, but we can't have the 416 and 417???
Does it have something to do with where it is made, and importing into the U.S.???
Why are Hk pistols and other rifles available???

The GCA of 1968 gives ATF the lattitude to decide what's sporting or not and to regulate it.

The Bush Sr. executive order of 1989 banned the importation of foreign made "assault rifles".

ATF has ruled that no more barrels or receivers for non sporting "assault rifles" may be imported.

So, HK isn't behind not bringing them in, it's Uncle Sugar.

Pistols and the SL-8 are deemed "sporting".

cpekz

03-22-07, 23:15

Can someone explain to me how it is we can have HK USP 45's and other Hk weapons, but we can't have the 416 and 417???
Does it have something to do with where it is made, and importing into the U.S.???
Why are Hk pistols and other rifles available???

If I'm not mistaken the importation ban only applies to weapons labeled as "assault rifles".

Edit: You beat me to it!

Nathan_Bell

03-23-07, 05:09

If I'm not mistaken the importation ban only applies to weapons labeled as "assault rifles".

Edit: You beat me to it!

One would think that with the AWB sunsetting with its definitions of "assault weapons" along with it that this ruling would be revisitied.

John_Wayne777

03-23-07, 07:05

Can someone explain to me how it is we can have HK USP 45's and other Hk weapons, but we can't have the 416 and 417???
Does it have something to do with where it is made, and importing into the U.S.???
Why are Hk pistols and other rifles available???

There are rules which the ATF uses to define "sporting" arms, which is the dastardly linchpin of the GCA of 1968.

The "sporting purposes" clause gives the BATFE wide discretion in what they allow into the country and what they do not allow to be imported, using an absurd "point" system where each evil feature gets a point and over a certain number of points means no-go.

The BATFE's stance on parts is a relatively new and extremely annoying one. They decided to change their interpretation to stop the importing of parts kits where US manufacturers would take a US made receiver and build a weapon using quality parts from overseas.

Things like the USP pistol don't get enough "points" to be kept out of the country......Yet.

Thus the trouble getting the 416 in country. H&K would be unable to import the weapon into the US for civilian sales, and because of the BATFE's new level of stupid they can't even import the various parts they could use to assemble the weapons inside the US.

Without a US manufacturing facility H&K's hands are pretty well tied. It's not that they are a bad company who doesn't care about the US market...they are just constantly being hammered by our idiot gun control laws.

It is nonsense like this that has lead me to adopt the position that in the realm of firearms the BATFE should be stripped of ALL discretionary authority. They should be restricted entirely to ministerial duties with no ability to interpret law whatsoever. Everything should be clearly spelled out in statute and they should be limited ONLY to what is defined in statute that is passed through Congress and signed by the President.

They have proven to be so bad at handling what authority they have been given that it is time their authority was severely curtailed.

TOrrock

03-23-07, 07:16

One would think that with the AWB sunsetting with its definitions of "assault weapons" along with it that this ruling would be revisitied.

The AWB of 94 had nothing to do with imported weapons, that was Bush Sr. in 1989, with an executive order that has no sunset.

John_Wayne777

03-23-07, 07:18

One would think that with the AWB sunsetting with its definitions of "assault weapons" along with it that this ruling would be revisitied.

Unfortunately that isn't how the BATFE works.

Their objective as an organization seems to be to keep as many guns out of the hands of private citizens as possible.

The earlier Bush and Clinton administration seemed to allow anti-gun zealots to gain control of the institution....either that or they actively encouraged a decidedly anti-gun institutional attitude. The result is that the BATFE has turned into an activist organization who dedicates as much time and effort as they can to stopping the sale of Constitutionally protected firearms.

The only way they will give up any ground is if they are forced to by legislation, or if the chief executive completely overhauls the organization.

If I were elected President tomorrow, the very first thing I would do is set about reorganizing the BATFE from the ground up and hammering in an entirely new message and institutional mindset for the entire organization. Those who drug their feet would either be fired or moved into positions where they had no influence over the effort.

I would then try and get legislation passed that would do away with every gun control law at the federal level from the NFA of 34 until today, and replace it with a single firearms code that plainly stated that the people of the United States have a 2nd amendment right to arms for defensive and sporting purposes, and that the following rules are intended to further that inalienable right.

It would include a provision that keeps about the same regulations on NFA items that we already have, but the fees for NFA stamps would be dramatically lowered and the process of obtaining NFA stamps would be greatly simplified.

It would create a recreational manufacturer's license that would permit individuals to essentially do whatever they want for personal use, so long as they obtain the proper stamps if they make any NFA items.

It would eliminate any import restrictions on firearms.

It would allow the reintroduction of the kitchen table FFL dealer.

It would ban any registration of ANY non NFA firearms in the US.

It would enable any citizen to carry a concealed handgun for personal defense anywhere in the US and her territories without requiring a permit, so long as the weapon was carried for lawful defensive purposes....meaning that if a criminal carried a concealed weapon to go rob a bank, you could charge him with a felony that would put him in jail for a minimum of 25 years.

That's one of the reasons why I will never be elected President.

John_Wayne777

03-23-07, 07:21

The AWB of 94 had nothing to do with imported weapons, that was Bush Sr. in 1989, with an executive order that has no sunset.

....Something Bush Jr. could fix with a stroke of the pen.

Frankly I think a campaign by gun owners to pressure him to do exactly that is in order at this time.

The Republican party cannot afford to have gun owners sit at home in 2008. Perhaps with that knowledge we can apply some pressure to get the Republicans to regain some sense, realize how much they need gun owners, and we can eliminate this idiotic restriction.....

SinnFéinM1911

03-23-07, 07:32

Can we get this back on topic ?

I think there is enough AWB threads out there to chat in.

TOrrock

03-23-07, 07:36

Can we get this back on topic ?

I think there is enough AWB threads out there to chat in.

Agreed.

Crash

03-23-07, 10:23

Is there ANY news of the performance on the 1020? Any industry insiders? I haven't even heard a single rumor. It seems strange to not have heard a peep about the performance of Colt's piston option. They seem to be getting thier asses kicked in the PR battle. Not that that battle wins contracts, but public opinion is decidedly for HK.

Last night in the gym, while running on the treadmill, I was watching Lou Dobbs. It was a pretty bad news piece, but he basically slammed the M4, and advised everyone that our troops were using defective crap. He went on to say that they should be issued the 416. I just shook my head. I wonder how sand getting into the chamber will be handled any more effectively by the 416 than the M4.

To Mr. Vickers, Thank you for your efforts within H&K to lobby for civillian sales of the 416 upper. I'm not sure I need one, or will purchase one if available, but it would be very nice to have the option. Thank you sir.

SinnFéinM1911

03-23-07, 11:45

Don't forget the SCAR should hit the Civ / LE market next year !! :D

John_Wayne777

03-23-07, 12:10

Last night in the gym, while running on the treadmill, I was watching Lou Dobbs. It was a pretty bad news piece, but he basically slammed the M4, and advised everyone that our troops were using defective crap. He went on to say that they should be issued the 416. I just shook my head. I wonder how sand getting into the chamber will be handled any more effectively by the 416 than the M4.

...so now Lou Dobbs is giving advice on what the military should be issuing as a rifle?

Has he even *held* a rifle before? Does he have a gunshow jerky sales business I was unaware of?

I dare say I know a great deal more about small arms than Mr. Dobbs, and I sure as heck ain't eager to go telling the military what they should be issuing the troops.

To Mr. Vickers, Thank you for your efforts within H&K to lobby for civillian sales of the 416 upper. I'm not sure I need one, or will purchase one if available, but it would be very nice to have the option. Thank you sir.

Larry is certainly a supporter of the right of civilians to keep and bear arms....it's just a darn shame that he has much cooler toys than most of us civilians do.... :D

SinnFéinM1911

03-23-07, 13:57

Spurholder

03-23-07, 14:25

I guess I would have to see the context of how it was said and what his backround is before jumping ot judgement...

Here's a link to the transcripts of last night's show:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/22/ldt.01.html

Subject line starts about 2/3's of the way down the page.

rob_s

03-23-07, 14:52

That general wants them to replace the M4 with the Bushmaster?

I think he must be a closet member of TOS.:D

M4Guru

03-23-07, 15:26

It seemed like he was sticking up for the troops with the budgets issues and how insignificant replacing every gun in the inventory would be. I bet ACUs...which suck...cost the Army a whole lot more. Good for him. General Grange is out of his element when it comes to the small arms needs of soldiers today.

SinnFéinM1911

03-23-07, 20:11

granicus

06-16-07, 18:31

I have a POF 18" upper mounted on a Bushmaster lower. The last time I fired and cleaned it I noticed the bolt carrier was shaving thin strips off of the buffer tube at the bottom of the tube just behind the buffer retaining pin. Has anyone else had this problem?? I've emailed POF, but have had no reply. I even posted on the manufacturers page and still no reply. This isn't my first issue with them. They had to replace the barrel on my upper because the chamber was too tight and wouldn't cycle properly. That's fixed and now this is happening. I really like the quality and design, but this is getting a little annoying. Has anyone had this problem, and if so, how (or could) did you fix it?

Thanks.

norm:confused:

granicus

06-16-07, 18:34

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a POF 18" upper mounted on a Bushmaster lower. The last time I fired and cleaned it I noticed the bolt carrier was shaving thin strips off of the buffer tube at the bottom of the tube just behind the buffer retaining pin. Has anyone else had this problem?? I've emailed POF, but have had no reply. I even posted on the manufacturers page and still no reply. This isn't my first issue with them. They had to replace the barrel on my upper because the chamber was too tight and wouldn't cycle properly. That's fixed and now this is happening. I really like the quality and design, but this is getting a little annoying. Has anyone had this problem, and if so, how (or could) did you fix it?

Thanks.

norm

Bcm3087

06-19-07, 10:22

Granicus-

I have a POF 16" upper w/ about 500 rounds through it, and I have not noticed the same problem. That said, I've noted that the new Colt piston upper has 2 "skis" on the lower rear portion of the BC to keep the carrier centered in the receiver to avoid this. When the piston strikes the BCG in these piston guns, it apparently causes the rear of the BCG to dip, thus striking the buffer tube. Check out the latest issue of SAR mag for pics/info. YMMV

-Bryan

Sam

06-19-07, 12:07

FWIW, from Paul Howe's website:

In Roswell, I participated in the filming of a Discovery Channel “Future Weapons” episode involving LWRC rifles.
http://www.lwrifles.com
There I had the opportunity to fire the Gas Piston PSD 6.8 M-4 style rifle with an 8” barrel. It shot well and grouped similar to my 16” rifle at 100 yards. It functioned well and the recoil was similar to a 5.56. A neat little gun overall and with the 115 grain bullets, I believe it would do great things against an enemy up close and at distance.
I was also able to fire the Gas Piston IAR-Infantry Automatic Rifle which looks like an M-16 A2. It shoots semi-automatic like the M16A2 with a closed bolt. When switched to the full auto mode, it fires from the open bolt to prevent cook offs. The overall weapon was light and it had an integral bipod that collapsed into the horizontal fore grip. My only suggestion was to make the barrel a bit heavier. This has the look and feel of an M16A2 and would take only a couple of minutes to retrain a soldier in its use, unlike the current SAW.
The film crew said the piece should air in the December time frame. I will note it in my web letter when I get a confirmation on the date.

More:

EQUIPMENT:
LWRC Rifle
I have been working with Darren and Jesse at LWRC rifles to put together a
“CSAT” model. My goal is to build an off the shelf rifle that you can simply take
out and shoot without having to spend a great deal of money on aftermarket
products. I currently have been shooting a prototype which has a 1/7 barrel 16” long with a phantom flash suppressor. The stock and pistol grip are from Mag-Pull and do wonders for the weapon.
The stock has a built in rubber pad that keeps in on your shoulder and from slipping off your gear. The “friction” stock allows you to adjust it in any position and not just the standard six-holes. The pistol grip has an ergonomic design that promotes a straight trigger pull along with an adjustable back strap.
I am working on putting a simple yet tough rear sight that the average shooter or patrol officer can work with. I have one more that I am going to test and it should be in this week.
Below is a picture of the rifle. It shoots well and keeps darn good groups at 100 with some scrap 62 grain ammo had on hand.

See the full article on Paul's website for pictures.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/07/CSATUpdate_June07.pdf

Rana

06-19-07, 12:16

Having 2 types of DI (LMT & Colt) as well as the piston (HK 416) driven system here is what I have observed in the 416.

Weight (this has been stated many times). This can be a good and bad thing.

The good- The rail and barrel are very solid and make for a great muzzle striking platform; which in many instances is a more likely scenario than actually having to shoot someone. The heavy rail unlike the standard (RE: KAC Rail) is more likely to maintain zero on laser (IR/VIS) devices and can really take a beating.

The bad- weight is an issue in the overall load out equation. Anyone who has spent time fully kitted up in some extreme environments understands this and knows that it can directly effect the operational capability of each individual shooter. To ignore it is both unrealistic and dangerous. Also, I actually did not like shooting the 416 with a can. I had a face full of gas and it was extremely annoying (blinding) in rapid fire. This may or may not had to do more with the can used(?) I am not an "egg head" just a knuckle dragging shooter- so I can't give you a bunch of numbers to why this occurs. I can't co-witness my Aimpoint to the HK sights! This may be fixed with a different mount(?) Finally, you have to remove the rail to get to the system. When you have sensitive devices on the rail system having to remove it makes for having to reconfirm dope, which is both time consuming and at times impractical.

Overall I believe HK has a winner in the 416. However, unless the law changes you won't see them in mass quantities. I think you have a better chance of an close encounter with an extraterrestrial before HK builds a factory here, so that future option is a no go.

With everything being said I am actually a huge believer in the LMT CQB 10.5" upper. With proper ammo it is a great tool and very reliable in my experience. Coupled with a good rail (Larue 7.0 comes to mind) and you have yourself a winner at a much lesser cost.

granicus

06-23-07, 22:28

Bryan,

Thanks for responding. I've sent the whole weapon back to them to see if they can figure it out. I've seen the 'skis' on the Colt weapon in that article, and I think it's a good idea. I'm hoping that it's a bent or otherwise faulty buffer tube. I've wondered whether the op-rod striking off center like that would cause the carrier to tilt slightly.
On a weapon like an AK, the carrier is on a rail and doesn't go 'into' anything, so that's not a factor in those. I hope they can figure it out. I really like the upper. Now, if someone can figure out how to configure the bolt carrier so it doesn't need to go into the stock, a major fault IMHO, it will be all good. You break the stock, you're done.
I was considering one of the Robinson Arms XCR's, but I'm leery about a new system (however much they use proven techniques) on what will be for me, the 'go' rifle. I did as much research as I could on the POF, and it seemed that they had a good system, with the major advantage of using it on any lower with all the accessories available for the AR's.

We'll see.

norm

Granicus-

I have a POF 16" upper w/ about 500 rounds through it, and I have not noticed the same problem. That said, I've noted that the new Colt piston upper has 2 "skis" on the lower rear portion of the BC to keep the carrier centered in the receiver to avoid this. When the piston strikes the BCG in these piston guns, it apparently causes the rear of the BCG to dip, thus striking the buffer tube. Check out the latest issue of SAR mag for pics/info. YMMV

-Bryan

Razorhunter

06-24-07, 00:21

For God Sakes can anyone tell me how to get Small Arms Review (particularly the latest said issue, with the Colt LE1020 review)????
I've emailed them numerous times, with no response.
I'm dying to get my hands on an issue before it's TOO late!!!

Soda Pop

08-11-07, 09:42

I've been watching this thread for months now, but I took the dive and ordered one of the LW M6A1 rifles and I'll report back, the LWRifles seem to have a better reputation than the POF, but we shall see.

E98T

08-11-07, 12:40

I own and shoot a lot 2 of the LWRC uppers: a SOC (M6A1) and a SRT (M6A2). I have yet to have a malfunction occur on either one. The upper rail is very easy and quick to remove. Having said that I also own a new BM/POF upper and I haven't experienced any malfunctions with it either although it is my newest so I don't have as many rounds down-range with it. Anyway, my point is I would not go back to a DI system now.

M4 Colt

08-12-07, 08:49

From what I know LWRC is trying hard to shake off the reputation that PLW/HFG left them with.

not too hard ! it appears they are following in the same foot steps, at least that is what i gather from Pat Rogers views !!

M4 Colt

08-12-07, 09:27

VA Dinger,

I have met Darren, Jesse, and some of the others in person and find them to be good, honest individuals that are working extremely hard to provide a quality product.

Stephen

you gotta be joking :D

****** has it right on, who is the head engineer and what University is his degree from ?

also !! please do NOT forget who really invented the piston that LWRC uses..., i think his name is Paul somthing or another, anyone know for certain ??

FJB

08-12-07, 14:00

variablebinary

10-12-07, 18:04

Short of an HK416 I think I will be passing on the AR15 piston revolution. My AR15's work and they work well. Fouling sucks, but I'm not sure its enough of a problem for me to pay the extra cash.

Still, I'd like to own a 416 purely from a collector's POV

Pat_Rogers

10-12-07, 18:16

Freddie- that is correct. Removing the spacer on the OEM mount will allow co- witnessing.
Laaaa Roooo also makes a low mount for the Comp M4 that accomplishes the same thing.

Rana- either method will put it in a co witness state. From my POV, i found it faster to look over the diopter sight- thereby lightening up on my cheekweld/ CH- noseweld, then trying to look through the diopter.
For precision shots (i know, i know...) i look through the diopter to preserve the integrity of my cheekweld and ensure consistency.
I agree with your observations. At a recent class there were 2 416's, one bm piston and on LWRC gun. The bm pooped the bed, a DI bm pooped the bed, and all the rest- Bravo Company uppers, Colt 6920's, M4's (real ones) and even one other DI bm all finished the course.

M4 Colt- don't you dare drag me into any of the petty dramas. :mad:

I had my words with that company when PLW was doing his routine. What is going on now - if anything- is something out of my pay grade.

I have never fired any of the LW guns but have seen them. I will eventually shoot something down the line because that is what i do.
I wish LWRC all the luck in the world to get the company moving and selling guns to Americans.

S-1

10-12-07, 20:30

Notes on the 416:
the 10" will shoot a bunch of crap in your face with a can, the 14.5 less so, probably because it has a vent for the piston & the 10" doesn't.

Didn't HK fix the problems that they were having when running the 10" 416 suppressed? Or was that a completely different issue than the blowback?

III

10-13-07, 11:49

Piston driven uppers have some drawbacks:
increased weight
decreased accuracy
more complex
more susceptible to copper fouling(on piston assy)
more stress on bolt and barrel ext.

they might have some merit for short barrels (less than 14.5in)

the engineering required to make them work properly is more complex than just adding a few parts to a standard AR

most of the debris introduced to the action actually comes back through the barrel so the idea of them running cleaner is actually a misconception
I don't understand why someone running a 16 in semi auto would need one.
If you want a piston driven gun buy an AK

Pat_Rogers

10-13-07, 12:00

Thank you for posting that.
I thought for a while i was among the maybe 4-5 people in the errornet world that had little use for piston driven guns.
I feel somehow...validated.

Glad to see you getting into the commercial business. It is long overdue.

III

10-13-07, 15:11

An Increased barrel diameter can counteract the accuracy problems the downside is more weight. Any gun that HK builds will be squared away. If Larry V. says it's good that's good enough for me. HK has made a lot of changes to the 416 since it was introduced. Even the best gun company in the world will not get it perfect right away and any good gun company will constantly improve their design.We had a bad batch of 2-stage triggers ( some were installed in some early 416) the adjustment screw holes were dryfilm lubed by accident . But in general I think our 2 stage trigger are some of the best out there.
If you want a more reliable weapon platform than the M4 it will be better to start from scratch. The problem with a 10 in gun is not the gun design but the ammo. Our PDW is 4.25 lbs and has 100 more ft lbs KE than a 10 in 5.56 weapon. When building rockets first you decide where you want to go then you pick the fuel then you build the rocket ; not saying weapon design is rocket science but give us a requirement and anticipated number of guns to be purchased first. What is acceptable for reliability ? 1000rnds 5000rnds 10000rnds? It will be interesting to see if the 416 performs better in the sand test than a standard M4.
When the gov't is ready for a 7.62 carbine give us the requirement and let the best company win. If we believe there is a viable contract we will devote our energy to producing the best weapon we can. Any company can only chase so many things at a time. I feel we are adding more capabilities to the user with our nightvision program than any weapon system .
The original question was about all piston upper and I feel that the HK product is not in the same category as the rest of the commercially available products.
I would run our PDW in 6mm against any 10in AR (5.56) weapon as long as lethality and weight are factored into how the weapons performance is judged. It has two pistons so it must be twice as good!

III

10-13-07, 20:09

All the feedback we have received is very positive. It is doing well considering it is not a very mature design. The presentation of the round(from the mag to the chamber) the mag (full curved) and the bolt (AK style) make this weapon reliable . I know the introduction of a new round will be the biggest hurdle it faces.
REVOLUTION NOT EVOLUTION!

DocGKR

10-16-07, 00:51

The 6x35 mm is the best SMG/PDW cartridge yet introduced. It fills that niche very well and is far superior to the 4.6mm and 5.7mm, as well as the pistol caliber cartridges used in the MP5 and other SMG's.

---------------------------------

Be it piston, direct impingement, whatever--the answer is NOT more M855 and Mk262; the short term answer in 5.56 mm is going to be something meeting these requirements: http://www.cbd-net.com/index.php/search/show/1087257. For current Mk18/HK416/M4/Mk12/M16 type weapons limited by the AR15 magwell, the 6.8 mm is the best current choice for improved terminal performance in sub-16" barrels. Over the long-term, the best solution is a new rifle in something like 7x46mm.

CM-4

10-16-07, 06:51

Last night in the gym, while running on the treadmill, I was watching Lou Dobbs. It was a pretty bad news piece, but he basically slammed the M4, and advised everyone that our troops were using defective crap. He went on to say that they should be issued the 416. I just shook my head. I wonder how sand getting into the chamber will be handled any more effectively by the 416 than the M4.

I get really tired of people sayng that the M4 is junk and we need the 416. An immediate family member of mine just came back from Iraq. I asked him about the performance of the M4 and the M16 platform. He said they were/are great. He is in the Marines so most of the guys use the A4 but several of them used the M4. He said that they did not have one problem with any of their rifles while they were there. He also said that when they do their live fire training, on some stages, he said it's nothing for them to shoot 800-1200 rounds in a given time without cleaning the rifle untill after they were done and he said they never had a problem. And he said they treated their rifles lke crap! And he said some were several years old also. I got on here and the TOS and he saw some of these piston threads. He laughed a little and said don't believe it. He said the oly gun that jammed a little was the 249 SAW. And he said that that was more operator err than anything because you have to feed the belt just right.