View Full Version : Original German MG 08 and Sten 5 Machine Guns
What would an original functioning German Mp8 (?) water cooled machine gun be worth? Any idea?
I was told right around $30K, maybe more.
Edit: Look below and I give the rest of the story. The $30K came from a guy at the bar where we were bull-shitting about this.
Another problem is that he (and same with me) is not sure exactly what they are called. He knew of the small one as a Sten, I used Wikapedia on my phone and we both kind of agree it must be a 5th generation Sten.
The big thing he calls a MP8... I can not find anything on it using Google. I told him that whatever it is, he is confused (old man, likely mixed up some facts over the years?) about the true name of the thing. I suggested he get me the pictures and I would start by finding out exactly what they are that he has and find out if the dealer is trying to screw him or not.
What would an original functioning German Mp8 water cooled machine gun be worth? any idea? I was told right around $30K, maybe more.
Boy you got me on that one? Is this a Maxim variant? If so it wouldn't be a MP (machine pistol) designation. And the first MP I'm aware of is the MP18. And if it IS the MP18 we are talking about, they certainly weren't water cooled.
What would an original functioning German Mp8 water cooled machine gun be worth? any idea? I was told right around $30K, maybe more.
Do you mean an MG-08?
German water cooled machine guns would be either the original Maxim MG 08 or the "lighter, man portable" MG 08/15 with buttstock and bipod.
OK, let me back up a step. This guy has had these for a long time, they are full auto class 3 units. He talked to a local class 3 dealer about them (selling them) and he was told that the Sten is not to valuable, maybe $2,000 and the other might be worth $5,000. He felt that this was very low, and asked me if I knew anyone that may have an idea what these are really worth.
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Junk%20Repository/1003092257.jpg
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Junk%20Repository/1203092048.jpg
Also note, I have never seen them function/operate nor have I ever actually seen them in real life. He says that he has operated both units and both functioned properly and as expected.
decodeddiesel
12-08-09, 09:33
Jesus, where did he keep those things? Buried in the backyard? :eek:
No wonder the dealer low balled him! From the looks of things that Maxim would have to be completely restored and reconditioned in order to be fire-able again.
Really not how I would protect an investment like that.:o
I believe he keeps his collection of odd things in his basement :)
I doubt that he could pick that thing up to save his life, we are not talking about a 40 year old brute, this guy makes old men look young....LOL! Honestly, I think he is trying to sell prior to death so that his estate does not need to deal with them. He did not clearly state it, but I feel that is the goal.
You called that large one a Maxim, would you care to elaborate for me? Is the term MP8 correct for it?
EDIT: Found it. Using your word MAXIM and his word MG8.... I found the Maschinengewehr 08, or MG08. That appears to be it!
OK, the MG8 might be valuable, it might be a door stop.
Really depends what is going on internally. The problem with most water cooled guns is when you surround a barrel with a metal jacket full of water and don't take care of it you can grow an impressive rust collection.
To know exactly what you have a knowledgeable person would have to break the whole thing down to determine the condition of everything.
A transferable Sten is gonna be in the $3,000 - $4,000 range depending upon model and condition.
Here is my straight and to the point commentary with no sugar coating.
MG08
Rusted pile of shit that is missing parts and doesn't work. Top left hole of the spade grip backplate looks ripped out.
I'd give $200 (yes that is two hundred) for the MG08. Any more than that, you are losing money and will be screwed. I don't believe the MG08 gas been used as looks it is missing half it parts (nothing in the receiver?) and owner is feeding you a big line of bullshit. Another point of suspicion is most owners have a tripod for a gun like this and he doesn't appear to have one so how could he have fired it?
Provided all those parts can be sand blasted, you probably have $5000 worth of restoration costs plus years of finding parts to do and will be left with a refinished pitted gun. Plan on replacing the barrel (if you can even get it out of the receiver and jacket because of rust fusion).
Sten
If the sten is rusty, I wouldn't give more than $1500 for it. Another maintenance/restoration nightmare. Don't inherent some else's problem. When you can buy a NIB MAC for $3500 that will work, paying more for a questionable sten is not justifiable. Stens are not hard to find in much better condition.
Overall comments
The guy is probably a bottom feeding loser who doesn't deserve a damn thing for his guns judging by the way he cared for them. You said he had them for years which makes me think he is partly to mostly responsible for the condition and lack of care of the guns. The fact that he is even considering $5000 for the MG08 makes further adds to my suspicions.
Maybe I missed it, but is either one of these registered properly? If they are, does the guy have his paperwork?
Regarding price, as others have said condition is going to be a big part of what the gun is worth. These guns appear to have been neglected for years. Assuming these are transferable, I would definitely expect below average prices due to their poor condition.
Major negativity in this thread.
Please remember that (assuming they are on the log books of the NFA registry & properly possessed by the person they are registered to):
-they are not making any more transferrables. Period. Ever.
-these guns are well over 50 years old & not only pre-86, but also C&R.
Now, the 08's condition is attrocious - I agree. But in the right hands, it might be restored to a "shooter" - and that is where such guns belong- on the range & not hanging on a wall behind museum glass. WERE it in pristine condition, it would be FAR MORE expensive and LESS likely to be fired.
2nd gun: that does not appear to be a sten. It appears to be a Mk. V. It has an enfield adjustable front sight as used on the No.4 Mk I &II as well as wood pistol grip & butstock. Could be worth more than the average Sten.
I am not into F/A guns; I have college funds to pay off & I used to work at an indoor range that rented such things (had a good time & got my fill of f/a). But if these guns ARE lawfully owned, I hope they find a good home with a person interested in shooting them.
WERE it in pristine condition, it would be FAR MORE expensive and LESS likely to be fired.
I don't see your rational here if this was in better condition it would be fired less.
The thing looks like it was dug out of the ground (trench from WWI) and was a bring back from WW2.
I don't see your rational here if this was in better condition it would be fired less.
if it were truly collectible it would not be fired much. Museum pieces don't get fired much as that detracts from their value. Shooters get fired.
If it is truly registered and transferable, it has value for being on the list. As long as the piece that is the registered piece is serviceable, it can be rebuilt into a shooter. Since the NFA MG world is a closed system, it has value. More than $200. Not anywhere what a collectible MG08 would bring of course.
The thing looks like it was dug out of the ground (trench from WWI) and was a bring back from WW2.
decodeddiesel
12-09-09, 15:33
Like any other article of trade, transferable machine guns are a commodity in which the price is largely driven by the condition of the goods. Everyone knows they're "not making anymore of them" but that does not excuse the condition that weapon is in, nor does that argument somehow negate the fact that in it's current state that thing is nothing more than a door stop or a boat anchor.
In this case the scottryan hit the nail right on the head. That MG, which we are all assuming is registered, and is transferable (which I have a sneaking suspicion in actuality it is not), is in atrocious condition. It's not like a 1911 or even a Luger where the parts and professional expertise to replace such parts are common place. I bet finding a competent gunsmith who would be willing to work on that weapon would be very difficult and finding replacement parts to get the thing up and running would probably require a machinist to manufacture them one by one. You're probably looking at tens of thousands of dollars to get this thing back into a shoot-able condition.
ETA: Chad posted while I was posting. I agree that if it were on the list that would impart value to it, but I think the restoration involved to get the thing up and running would negate the "savings" one would get from purchasing this MG.
Like any other article of trade, transferable machine guns are a commodity in which the price is largely driven by the condition of the goods.
Condition may regulate the price but it does not mean it has no value. Being registered (if this one is, which I have doubts on myself) itself is of great value. The condition may mean that the value is down by some large percentage (50-75%??) but condition does not make 99% of the value of transferable MG
Everyone knows they're "not making anymore of them" but that does not excuse the condition that weapon is in, nor does that argument somehow negate the fact that in it's current state that thing is nothing more than a door stop or a boat anchor.
In this case the scottryan hit the nail right on the head. That MG, which we are all assuming is registered, and is transferable (which I have a sneaking suspicion in actuality it is not), is in atrocious condition. It's not like a 1911 or even a Luger where the parts and professional expertise to replace such parts are common place. I bet finding a competent gunsmith who would be willing to work on that weapon would be very difficult and finding replacement parts to get the thing up and running would probably require a machinist to manufacture them one by one. You're probably looking at tens of thousands of dollars to get this thing back into a shoot-able condition.
ETA: Chad posted while I was posting. I agree that if it were on the list that would impart value to it, but I think the restoration involved to get the thing up and running would negate the "savings" one would get from purchasing this MG.
http://www.mg0815.com/0815parts.htm
That was just a quick google search. Don't know what the parts are or what they cost. Someone would have to actually see more than a bad pic out of a guys basement to ascertain. So based on what we see now in the pic we cannot say what the value is even in a ballpark. A Maxim enthusiast might have a better idea just looking at the picture as they would know what the insides cost ;-)
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-09, 18:47
If it is registered I will give him $800 for either one. I am feeling generous!:D
if it were truly collectible it would not be fired much. Museum pieces don't get fired much as that detracts from their value. Shooters get fired.
No shit sherlock. You don't think I know that?
Guns that work are not an empty rusted shell with missing parts either, so how can you say this been has fired in recent times?
In this case the scottryan hit the nail right on the head. That MG, which we are all assuming is registered, and is transferable (which I have a sneaking suspicion in actuality it is not), is in atrocious condition.
I'm starting to think the same about the legal status.
No shit sherlock. You don't think I know that?
Guns that work are not an empty rusted shell with missing parts either, so how can you say this been has fired in recent times?
I never said it has been. We were talking about its value as a shooter once restored as a shooter, not a museum piece. The post you replied to was talking about its value (assuming it is really a registered transferable) that would include it being a shooter and not a museum piece. Obviously in the future after being worked on.
I think you need to read other people's posts a bit better and calm down the profanity.
I never said it has been. We were talking about its value as a shooter once restored as a shooter, not a museum piece. The post you replied to was talking about its value (assuming it is really a registered transferable) that would include it being a shooter and not a museum piece. Obviously in the future after being worked on.
I think you need to read other people's posts a bit better and calm down the profanity.
I know that.
The guy was trying to argue the worst the condition, the more it has been shot.
But it doesn't have all its parts and its condition is beyond worst.
I know that.
The guy was trying to argue the worst the condition, the more it has been shot.
But it doesn't have all its parts and its condition is beyond worst.
I agree with you that, as is, it is in worse than atrocious condition (at least from the pics we have). I understood his post differently as he agreed it was in atrocious condition but could be restored to a shooter.
Anyway, this whole thing is moot as I think we would all agree that the smart money is not on it being registered and transferable. If I were him I would think about re-burying it someway far away from his property in the middle of the night if that is indeed the case.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-10-09, 01:59
Let's all be civil, gentlemen. This is the NFA forum, not general discussion. We are a better than that.
I honestly don't know if they are "transferable" or how to tell, I only met the guy at a bar and started talking crap about hunting and it eventually led to this topic. I told him I would try and find out if the dealer that offered to buy them is ripping him off. Legal or illegal, I have no clue, nor do I personally really care. I have no use for them, I am partial to my ARs and my Glock! When I run into the dude again at the bar, I'll try and ask him if they are transferable and if he has proof. I assume there is a paper or something that says that they are transferable? I was not asking because I want to buy them, I was just trying to help the dude get a feel for the dealers offer. The dealer is a class 3 dealer and stocks automatic M-16's from the Vietnam erra, he wants $21,000 each for them. That sounds insane to me!
On a side note, I was at a local gun store Tuesday and saw one of the employees had a compact M&P9 with the factory Crimson Trace grip that he bought, shot, carried for about a month and decided he doesn't like it more than his Glock. He is selling it for $650. I'm seriously considering it for my wife.
The dealer is a class 3 dealer and stocks automatic M-16's from the Vietnam erra, he wants $21,000 each for them. That sounds insane to me!
If they are uncut property marked rifles they could be worth that if they are nice condition.
decodeddiesel
12-10-09, 12:00
The dealer is a class 3 dealer and stocks automatic M-16's from the Vietnam erra, he wants $21,000 each for them. That sounds insane to me!
That sounds about right for a transferable Colt M16 marked Gov't Property as Scott pointed out. Machine Guns are really not something for the casual hobbyist to dabble in. They are an investment commodity more than anything.
On a side note, I was at a local gun store Tuesday and saw one of the employees had a compact M&P9 with the factory Crimson Trace grip that he bought, shot, carried for about a month and decided he doesn't like it more than his Glock. He is selling it for $650. I'm seriously considering it for my wife.
That is an OK asking price for that pistol. I purchased my M&P9 Compact brand new for about $540 and found used but like new in box CTC grips for $200.
I honestly don't know if they are "transferable" or how to tell, I only met the guy at a bar and started talking crap about hunting and it eventually led to this topic. I told him I would try and find out if the dealer that offered to buy them is ripping him off. Legal or illegal, I have no clue, nor do I personally really care.
You may not want to buy them, but it's also not good to get involved with someone trying to sell machine guns if they are not registered and transferable. It's very easy to become entangled in a mess while trying to be helpful.
If they are transferable, he should have an approved Form 4 with a tax stamp on it for each one. The stamp is literally a blue stamp with an American Eagle with a shield over its chest that states its value as $200.
I'm not saying the guy you met is a bad guy and he wants to draw you into his problems, but he might be one of those guys who didn't register when he had the opportunity to register and now basically has items that would get an individual a few years in jail and a hefty fine.
I do know someone who got dragged into a firearms case even though he was not the person who was intentionally doing something wrong. He got tagged with a conspiracy charge. It did not end well for him.
You may not want to buy them, but it's also not good to get involved with someone trying to sell machine guns if they are not registered and transferable. It's very easy to become entangled in a mess while trying to be helpful.
Good advice in my opinion. Federal laws, the ATF and conspiracy charges are not hard to drum up.
LOL... all I was trying to do was help the dude verify the offer. The way you all are talking, I'm scared to ever run into him again! It sounds like black Suburbans are gonna follow me around and try to see if I buy them! I have no use for them, and the $21K for the M-16 is absurd at my tax bracket!
So, I do not want any information about this guy or his stuff. He can deal with his trash as he see's fit, or die with them wherever they currently reside. I don't need anyone elses trouble as my own F-him!
I honestly don't know if they are "transferable" or how to tell, I only met the guy at a bar and started talking crap about hunting and it eventually led to this topic. I told him I would try and find out if the dealer that offered to buy them is ripping him off. Legal or illegal, I have no clue, nor do I personally really care. I have no use for them, I am partial to my ARs and my Glock! When I run into the dude again at the bar, I'll try and ask him if they are transferable and if he has proof. I assume there is a paper or something that says that they are transferable?
This part is actually very easy.
You are looking for a Form 4 (possibly a Form 3) for each machine gun. This is the ATF NFA registration form that will show the firearm make, model and serial number as well as the current registered owners name and address.
Your forgetting, it is a guy I met while half inebriated while hanging from a bar stool! At this point, I don't really care about him or his finances, he is free to fly away and do as he wishes. Thank your posting, but I'm backing away from this one before some black suburbans pull up outside my house thinking I am involved with shit that has nothing to do with me!
This part is actually very easy.
You are looking for a Form 4 (possibly a Form 3) for each machine gun. This is the ATF NFA registration form that will show the firearm make, model and serial number as well as the current registered owners name and address.
and the $200 tax stamp affixed!
an actual stamp like a postage stamp but instead of saying US POst office it will say some other stuff and look like an old time stamp.
LOL... all I was trying to do was help the dude verify the offer. The way you all are talking, I'm scared to ever run into him again! It sounds like black Suburbans are gonna follow me around and try to see if I buy them! I have no use for them, and the $21K for the M-16 is absurd at my tax bracket!
So, I do not want any information about this guy or his stuff. He can deal with his trash as he see's fit, or die with them wherever they currently reside. I don't need anyone elses trouble as my own F-him!
My point was that if you want to be helpful, it would be a good idea to make sure you are not putting yourself in a bad position at the same time. By your own admission, you have little knowledge of NFA stuff. What you are showing is atypical for registered NFA guns. If you want to be the guy who doesn't care, fine.
It's not about black helicopters and suburbans... What you don't seem to appreciate is a little thing like putting an interested person in contact with the seller or helping the seller find a buyer while you are looking into what the price should be can become a major problem if the guns are not registered. (And as far as I can tell, you don't know.) It's very easy for a discussion about price to become: "I know a guy who would be interested in buying that."
I'm not going to lose any sleep over you doing something stupid and getting in trouble for it. If you want to complain about people advising you to tread cautiously in an area where you don't know the rules, that's foolish but it's your deal.
Outrider,
Sorry. I'm not treading at all. Had I known that there was such a big to-do over it, I would not have asked anything. Like I said, I am not personally involved with the guy, I met him at a bar and we talked hunting and guns and it led into some BS about him wanting to part ways with something that he thought the dealer was low balling him on. I suggested that I might be able to go online and find out of he was being low balled. I said that one day we would likely see each other again, and I would let him know what I found out about the prices the dealer offered.
So, here is me saying I don't care if he is getting fair prices or not. I don't need involved in crap that lands folks in trouble. Your correct that I do not know anything about NFA stuff, I assumed it was nothing different than an SBR in that you needed to have a paper of sorts saying your allowed to have it. I would never ask a stranger in a bar if he has these things, especially being that I don't know what a fellow needs to have.
I'm not being a dick, I just do not need any problems. End of story. Should I never bump into him again, I am very OK with that. Hell, I may just change what bar I hang out in so as too be sure I avoid the chance of ever having to continue the conversation with him. Plus, I got away with owing him a beer, so if I don't see him ever again, I don't have to buy him that beer! It works out all around!
and the $200 tax stamp affixed!
an actual stamp like a postage stamp but instead of saying US POst office it will say some other stuff and look like an old time stamp.
Unless it happens to be on a Form 3.
LOL... all I was trying to do was help the dude verify the offer. The way you all are talking, I'm scared to ever run into him again! It sounds like black Suburbans are gonna follow me around and try to see if I buy them! I have no use for them, and the $21K for the M-16 is absurd at my tax bracket!
So, I do not want any information about this guy or his stuff. He can deal with his trash as he see's fit, or die with them wherever they currently reside. I don't need anyone elses trouble as my own F-him!
I would not go over to this person's house or wherever he stores the guns.
I would also not meet him at some off site location to look at the guns.
I would also not have him bring the guns over to your house.
I would not have any further contact with this person until he can provide NFA paperwork and physically has it in his hands.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.