357 Magnum vs 38 Special in a carry gun.

[ak74auto]

I searched this forum, but didn't find the info I was looking for. My questions are:

1. Will the 357 Mag's velocity cause the projectile (assuming that a good SD rd is picked) to expand to slightly larger diameter or at least more reliably if the projectiles has to travel through clothing first ?

2. In terms of a return on one's investment, does the 357 Mag cartridge perform well enough to consider carrying it over a good .38Spl load? I am looking at less recoil if I run a 38Spl +p load versus a full bore 357Mag load. Less recoil means quicker recovery times in between shots fired.

Am I missing something else ?


Just to keep things clear, I am selecting a carry load for defensive use in a snub nose steel framed .357 Magnum.

[Oscar 319]

As an experiment, go fire a 125 grn JHP .357 from a 2.5" barrel at night. Just don't plan on driving anywhere for a while.

[Marcus L.]

I searched this forum, but didn't find the info I was looking for. My questions are:

1. Will the 357 Mag's velocity cause the projectile (assuming that a good SD rd is picked) to expand to slightly larger diameter or at least more reliably if the projectiles has to travel through clothing first?

No and yes. Each caliber size has a expansion limit. The petals of a mushrooming JHP fold back and once they've reached their limit(perpendicular to the bullet trunk), they fold back and hug the trunk. This is why you get no addition expansion from faster loadings like Double Tap.....just more penetration.

Here's a post made by Dr. Roberts on some Double Tap testing:

"We recently had the opportunity to test the .40 S&W Gold Dot 155 gr JHP loaded by Double Tap Ammunition, along with the .40 S&W Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP, as requested by an individual LE officer. These new results are contrasted with the standard .40 S&W Speer 155 gr Gold Dot we previously tested for an LE agency:

.40 S&W Speer 155 gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=1166 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal= 9.5cm@ 585fps
BG: pen=13.2", RD=0.64", RL=0.32", RW=155.5 gr
4 layers denim: pen=16.0", RD=0.60", RL=0.44", RW=155.3gr

.40 S&W Double Tap 155 gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=1208 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal=10cm@578fps
BG: pen=15.0", RD=0.66", RL=0.39", RW=155.6gr
4 layer denim: pen=17.1", RD=0.55", RL=0.42", RW=155.2gr

.40 S&W Speer 165 gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=1092 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal=10cm@578fps
BG: pen=15.0" RD=0.63", RL=0.37", RW=165.2gr
4 layer denim: pen=16.5", RD=0.55", RL=0.51", RW=165.4gr
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/40155DT_GD165GD.jpg
Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot & Speer 165 gr Gold Dot

Both newly tested loads performed adequately, however, there was a noticeable increase in flash, blast, and recoil with the Double Tap ammunition. Neither the Speer 165 gr Gold Dot nor the Double Tap Ammunition 155 gr loading was able to outperform the standard .40 S&W 155 gr Speer Gold Dot loading."

.....however, additional velocity does tend to improve expansion reliability particularly against various barriers.



2. In terms of a return on one's investment, does the 357 Mag cartridge perform well enough to consider carrying it over a good .38Spl load? I am looking at less recoil if I run a 38Spl +p load versus a full bore 357Mag load. Less recoil means quicker recovery times in between shots fired.

Am I missing something else ?

Just to keep things clear, I am selecting a carry load for defensive use in a snub nose steel framed .357 Magnum.

Personally, I would go with a good .38spl+P load. The additional powder charge of the .357magnum makes for more flash, noise, and recoil which will effect your ability to rapidly get accurate rounds on target. Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot 135gr+P(part number 53921) is probably the best .38spl load right now.

[Buck]

Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot 135gr+P(part number 53921) is probably the best .38spl load right now.

Wise words for the J frame crowd...

B

[CC556]

Speer also makes a Short Barrel Gold Dot .357Mag load. I carry them in my 340PD. The recoil isn't as bad as you'd expect.

[DocGKR]

For 4" and longer barrels, .357 Mag is a good option; for under 3" barrels, .38 Sp makes the most sense...

[ak74auto]

Thank you Dr. , and thanks to everyone else too.

[Armati]

Is it better to run .38+P out of a .38 only pistol or is it better to run them in .357 pistol?

[Glock17JHP]

Pick the revolver before you pick the load...
Some folks don't mind .357 magnum loads for SD...
Some prefer .38 Special +P...
Some prefer .38 Special...
Try some out, you will find from experience that you shoot one of the 3 better...
I could elaborate if necessary, but I tend to do that too much...

[Glock17JHP]

Is it better to run .38+P out of a .38 only pistol or is it better to run them in .357 pistol?

It depends on the revolver and your recoil sensativity...
You may not need the extra weight of the .357 Magnum revolver over a .38 Special revolver...

[RWK]

Is it better to run .38+P out of a .38 only pistol or is it better to run them in .357 pistol?

Doesn't matter. An extremely light weight .357 (M&P 340) is more of a handful than an aluminum/steel frame .38, even when "only" shooting .38 +P's.

[Glock17JHP]

I searched this forum, but didn't find the info I was looking for. My questions are:

1. Will the 357 Mag's velocity cause the projectile (assuming that a good SD rd is picked) to expand to slightly larger diameter or at least more reliably if the projectiles has to travel through clothing first ?

2. In terms of a return on one's investment, does the 357 Mag cartridge perform well enough to consider carrying it over a good .38Spl load? I am looking at less recoil if I run a 38Spl +p load versus a full bore 357Mag load. Less recoil means quicker recovery times in between shots fired.

Am I missing something else ?


Just to keep things clear, I am selecting a carry load for defensive use in a snub nose steel framed .357 Magnum.

OK, we may have drifted from the original questions...

Question #1...
Even the best handgun loads are impeded by clothing... clothing usually makes it harder for the bullet to expand more reliably.

Question #2...
For the sake of discussion, I will assume you are going to use a 2 1/2 inch S&W K-frame. For that size of revolver I would recommend .38 Special +P ammunition, not .357 Magnum... even with Hogue rubber combat grips. Specifically, I would suggest either the Speer Gold Dot .38 +P 135 grain GDHP, or the Winchester .38 +P 'FBI Load' 158 grain Lead SWCHP.

I would save the .357 Magnum loads for 4 inch .357 Magnum revolvers, basically like DocGKR says...

[tpd223]

Not to argue, but in a 2 1/2" K frame I would likely go with one of the reduced recoil .357 loads, like the 135gr Gold Dot.

For what most folks are likely to actually carry, such as a J frame, the advice on the use of .38s has already been well stated.

[Glock17JHP]

That would be the 'short barrel' load, correct?
What expansion and penetration characteristics does that load give?
Is it the same bullet that the .38 +P GD uses with the same bullet weight?
If yes, would those 2 loads give the same/similar velocity from a 2 1/2 inch K-frame?

[PA PATRIOT]

I determine my load by what I could shoot most accurately and the fastest. Pairs and triples have to be dead COM while I was relocating to the left or right. The recoil from the .38spl Speer S/B +P would reposition the J-frames grip in my hand causing my accuracy to suffer. Doc has recommended full Wad-Cutters for the J-Frame and I have a decent stash of the old Safe Stop FMJ full Wad-Cutters which at 725fps from a 2"inch barrel will definitely penetrate to desired levels. I would be more concern myself with making good hits first with a loading I could fire fast and control, have proper penetration, and then hoping the leading edges of my selected loading caused a true cutting/destruction of tissue a long its track for better hemmerging.

[tpd223]

That would be the 'short barrel' load, correct?
What expansion and penetration characteristics does that load give?
Is it the same bullet that the .38 +P GD uses with the same bullet weight?
If yes, would those 2 loads give the same/similar velocity from a 2 1/2 inch K-frame?


Yes.

Not the same bullet is what the CCI guy told me during a gello shoot we hosted here. The 135gr for the .357 is made to be launched at a higher velocity.

The .357 load breaks 1000fps from a 2 1/2" barrel, the .38 loading normally hovers in the 700s IIRC. I know Doc has tested the .38 loading several times.

[Glock17JHP]

I determine my load by what I could shoot most accurately and the fastest. Pairs and triples have to be dead COM while I was relocating to the left or right. The recoil from the .38spl Speer S/B +P would reposition the J-frames grip in my hand causing my accuracy to suffer. Doc has recommended full Wad-Cutters for the J-Frame and I have a decent stash of the old Safe Stop FMJ full Wad-Cutters which at 725fps from a 2"inch barrel will definitely penetrate to desired levels. I would be more concern myself with making good hits first with a loading I could fire fast and control, have proper penetration, and then hoping the leading edges of my selected loading caused a true cutting/destruction of tissue a long its track for better hemmerging.

Agree 100% with you here, Phila!!!
My wife shoots a S&W K-frame Model 64 3 inch w/ Hogue rubber combat grips...
She loves the Winchester Super Match 148 grain Target full-wadcutter load...
I've tried to talk her into other loads, but fast or slow fire, she is dead-on!!!
I stopped trying to change her...

[Glock17JHP]

Oh, and here she is in action...

[DocH]

I have begun using the 135gr+P Gold Dot in my 2 1/2 in.Mod 19,although it is only an occasional carry piece.Has there been any significant testing of the Winchester 130 gr offering? If so,how does it compare?