View Full Version : VT AK Class #1 - Reviews, Comments, and Photos.
Heavy Metal
03-11-07, 18:05
All survived, a good time was had by all. Thanks to Larry Vickers,
Dinger and the 'Nameless One' who shall have his secret identity preserved to ensure his continued ability to fight on for truth, justice and the American way.
My shooting on the move is now 1000% better and my skill with a handgun is no longer measured in negative numbers. A number of lights came on so to speak and I left with much to think about and practice.
Everybody was great, it was a pleasure to meet all my fellow students. If you like AK's, simply put, you will love this course. All of you in the latter courses are in for a treat.
Some advice for those to follow: The Vickers Sling is indeed every bit as good as Larry will tell you it is.
Gloves: Have and use gloves. Kalashnikovs are burn and boo-boo factories. When I wore my gloves, no problem. When I did not, I made the band-aid corporation that much richer.
At a minimum, wear one on your weak side hand to prevent contact burns with the barrel.
Great class. I'm pooped! We need to have a discussion about the 106 problem. I'm tired now, but tomorrow I have a theory to share. Later guys.
Robb Jensen
03-11-07, 21:57
Kicka** F***ing class. Larry Vickers and the not named instructor were both excellent. I learned a lot this weekend. Blaster22s and my opinion of the 106 after speaking with Templar our thought is that the 5.56mm AKs need to be built on milled receivers. The milled 5.56 AKs used in this class ran 100%. I think all of the stamped ones jammed at least once. We think it's the flexing of the stamped receiver causing this. A 1.6mm receiver may work, but without Arsenal testing know one really knows. I had about 20 failures to fully chamber a round this weekend with my AK-106. This may be the very first class were this many stamped 5.56 AK were used in and pushed this hard. Most of the failures were with American Eagle 55gr FMJ, and less so with Guatamalan, Radway Green, and Wolf.
Great class ... my favorite part was the swimsuit compitition, with Larry schooling us all.
Saw some great AK setups, this gun can be run almost like an M4, speaking of M4 .. M4arc "I miss ya man. Miss your laugh, miss your scent, I miss your musk Ron. I say when this whole thing blows over you and me get an apartment together"...
but seriously...
Guys were snapping away like "Chinese tourists", so I am sure there will be some great AAR picutres to go with this thread and to wet the appitites of those still to partake.
The one Larry biggie was the lock back selector from BF buffers as the one item a must have.
The MP44/Krinkov/AKM ... (for me) M&P demo were worth their weight in gold.
Vinh was once again "the human ransom rest" and C4iGrant's Doctor and Surefire setup a winner.
Don't hesitate to check out the Three Angles Bed and Breakfast Inn... Tom and Pat were more than gracious and only 2 minutes from the range.
Along with the professionalism of everyone at the couse and the "Unnamed one" this course brought a lot to everyone who attended and will no doubt set the standard by which others are judjed, not to mention directly impact things downrange.
Will
Great class.
I will post more later, but these are a few of the photos I took during the class.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0011.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0010.jpg
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http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0007.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0001.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0002.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0003.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0004.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0005.jpg
Nice pictures. Beautiful weather all weekend. Class covered everything very well. About the 106: we need to warn future classes to test-fire their 106 WELL before class. If it won't feed brass, try Wolf. If it hiccups on Wolf, take another rifle.
My M5 was fine. American Eagle 50g HP all weekend. Mini-ACOG on K-Var mount worked very well. Hold-over was no worse than AR. Black Bulgy mags, 4 cell chest pouch, 6004 with old-school 226/9mm. Federal AE 9mm. We did about 700 rifle, 300 pistol. Danner boots, single-point sling, $4 Wal-Mart fingerless gloves that have lasted thru 2 trips to Blackwater and are still okay.
I was feeling my 50 years on this planet and midnight-duty fatigue all weekend. Oh well, my problem. Stayed at Hampton Inn, which was nice. Dinner at Applebee's and Cracker Barrel. Great group of guys, class gets a 5 star rating from me.
Oh, and I learned a new word from Larry the Easter Bunny - "modificate".
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 08:10
This was a KICKA** F***ING class. I had an excellent time. Larry Vickers and the not named instructor were both excellent. I learned a lot this weekend, a lot about shooting on the move and a lot about the AK.
After speaking with Tim (Templar), Blaster22s and my opinion of the 106 is that the 5.56mm AKs need to be built on milled receivers. The milled 5.56 AKs used in this class ran 100%. I think all of the stamped ones jammed at least once (my did almost 20 times). We think it's the flexing of the stamped receiver causing this. A 1.6mm receiver may work, but without Arsenal testing know one really knows. I had about 20 failures to fully chamber a round this weekend with my AK-106. This may be the very first class where this many stamped 5.56 AKs were used in and pushed this hard. Most of the failures were with American Eagle 55gr FMJ, and less so with Guatamalan, Radway Green, and Wolf.
Larry Vickers said that me, Paul, himself and the other instructor are built like groundhogs (naturally pre-dispositioned for fighting on the move).
I think we're more like badgers/wolverines! http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/fkr.gif
Here's a few pics I got.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAK.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKVIHN.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKGRANT.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKDINGER3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKBLASTER22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKJW777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKROBB.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKKATAR2.jpg
John_Wayne777
03-12-07, 08:54
For those who have never trained with Vickers before, he is a very different animal (insert bunny joke here...) than some of the other folks I have trained with.
I was planning to do a little writeup anyway, so I may as well do it here and now.
This was a much more challenging course than I expected. When looking at the prospect of a 2 day course I was skeptical about how much benefit it could be. I am a guy who is used to doing 5 day (or longer...) courses. Thus I wondered just how much we could accomplish in two days. Still, it was a chance to train with Vickers and see what sort of instructor he is and to get some trigger time on my VEPR-K which had spent most of its life collecting dust, so I decided to give it a whirl.
I seriously underestimated the difficulty in switching from a weapon I have trained with quite a bit (the AR) to a weapon I had only 3 or 4 magazines worth of informal plinking through and didn't really know much about. Finding that front sight and making it settle on target under the constraints of the drills that Vickers had us run was much more difficult than I expected. Add to that the use of REALLY TINY targets and what you have is a very humbling training experience.
Vickers has a different approach to movement than other instructors I have had, and a different take on speed. We didn't do a single speed drill in the entire course....only drills that had to be completed within a given period of time. There were no awards for fastest anything, no competitions for fastest anything.
The emphasis was on who shot whatever drill there was clean.
I really enjoyed the class. Larry's style is much different and much less "formal" than other classes I have taken....but you still learn every bit as much (or more) as you do in a more "formal" course. Larry is also quite.....how do I put this.....entertaining....and not just around bunnies.
After taking this class I am probably going to sign up for the low-light class he is doing with Ken Hackathorn in Sept.
If any of you out there haven't considered taking a course with Mr. Vickers, I suggest that you modificate your plans and do so.
Edit --
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKJW777.jpg
This was one of the highlights for me.....my only regret is that I didn't have more ammo.
Excellent information. I'm curious, how much ammo did you guys go through? I'm signed up for a future class and want to know how much I should bring.
I know the recommended amount is 800 rds rifle and 150 rds pistol. But, I attended other shooting courses where the recommended #'s were way off.
Thanks.
Joe Mamma
John_Wayne777
03-12-07, 10:37
Excellent information. I'm curious, how much ammo did you guys go through? I'm signed up for a future class and want to know how much I should bring.
I know the recommended amount is 800 rds rifle and 150 rds pistol. But, I attended other shooting courses where the recommended #'s were way off.
Thanks.
Joe Mamma
Larry's recs are pretty good. He keeps close watch on people's ammo supply and usually won't have more than 400 rounds fired in a day. He believes much more than 400 rounds is actually harmful because people begin to fatigue and start getting sloppy, and the subsequent rounds just reinforce bad habits.
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 10:42
I shot a little more than 700 rifle and 250 pistol.
Communist's I tell ya...the lot of ya.
:p
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 11:50
Communist's I tell ya...the lot of ya.
:p
Not it's "SOCIALIST CARD CARRYING MOTHER F***ERS"! or POTATO VODKA DRINKING MOTHER F***ERS! :D
Business_Casual
03-12-07, 11:54
Could you share with us:
Slings - what worked, what didn't
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?
Thanks,
M_P
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 12:01
Could you share with us:
Slings - what worked, what didn't
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?
Thanks,
M_P
Vickers 2pt sling works best, 2nd best is a single point and 3pt being the worst. Chests rigs worked best, except for prone, no problem with any mags. I did crack a clear 5.56mm mag at the NRA Range. 5.56mm in stamped guns needs some fixing/tweaking/refining, mines going back to Arsenal. Milled 5.56mm guns ran fine. 5.45mm and 7.62mm guns both milled and stamped ran fine.
Things I learned from the AK class
- Templar really does know everything about AKs.
- Blackjack or Swift AK selectors are worth their weight in gold. The only reason not to have one, it seems, is because you’re not building a fighting gun.
- SLR-106s aren’t worth a good goddamn to me. I’ve been to 4 or 5 classes that were AR-centric, and never saw so many weapons choke as I did at a freaking AK class, all of them 106s. Those fellows at Arsenal need to fix that POS like right now.
- The Krebs KTR-103S built on an SLR-105 (5.45) is so damn easy to use that it’s like cheating. It is, in my opinion, everything that an AK should be. Larry allowed anyone in the class to shoot his Krebs gun, and I shot it for the entire second day. All I did was flip the lefty sling over, slid the stock in a bit, and squirted a bit of CLP in through the ejection port. What a great gun. Having decent sights is one great reason to love that gun, but the selector is like a drunk cheerleader: free and easy. I told Larry that I don’t think I’d get one, but I found myself surfing GunBroker last night looking for one. I think I will end up scratching that itch sooner or later.
- Seeing an MP-43 broken down, it was remarkable how many other guns you could see when looking at it. Having Larry and Dave bring out pieces of their own collections for us to see was a real treat and a good history lesson. The opportunity to shoot an MP43, well that’s just icing on the cake.
- If I don’t get a Krebs gun, I will definitely purchase an Ultimak rail and put a SPOT on it. GotM4s setup was quite nice in that regard.
- One of the big things I took away from the class is how it’s not really rocket science to switch from an AR to an AK. Practice those reloads (they will f you up), remember to tuck the stock under your armpit. Get a Blackjack or Swift lever and remember to bend it out for easy engagement of the selector. The sights suck, but there are ways around it. Even if you keep them stock, it’s still combat accurate at 100 yards+ if you do your job. I don’t consider myself an advocate of the AK, but after the class if I sat down and compared an AK to an AR in a real apples to apples competition, the AK wouldn’t be nearly as far behind the AR as I would have placed it prior to this weekend. My biggest complaints about the AK have been sights and ergonomics. I know now that both can be addressed to modernize this platform.
- With the course being so AK focused, the course layout was really different from the standard 3 day pistol/carbine in that we hardly shot the pistol at all. For those of you who haven’t taken that class, it’s very pistol-centric and for good reason. Larry touched on it during the first day: pistols are hard to shoot. If you guys had fun at this class, try the 3 day using an AK. I think it’ll be an even bigger eye opener.
- Did I mention how awesome the Krebs gun was? It wasn’t like cheating, it WAS cheating.
- Getting to shoot a full auto Krink and AKM were among the highlights of the weekend for me. I can’t thank Sam enough for bringing out his incredible guns. The Saiga 20 gauge autoloader was just plain NASTY!
- I can’t say enough good stuff about Paul for putting the class together, nor can I say enough good stuff about the effective teaching styles of Dave and Larry. If you show up ready to learn, you will come away with a good skillset and drills you can use to further enhance your skills. Now all I have to do is find a range that will let me shoot on the move.
- Knowing the low round count and the way we have access to our vehicles at all times, I opted for a fairly light belt rig consisting only of on rifle mag, 2 pistol mags, pistol and dump pouch (which usually held an extra rifle mag). It worked well all weekend and I was quite happy with it.
- Slings for AKs. I did some of the weekend with the standard canvas (junk) sling. It’s worthless. Fortunately, Larry addressed this and talked about dealing with that junk sling both in transitions to handguns and switching shoulders. When I heard we would do transitions, I put a single point on the gun. I don’t like single points as a rule, but it’s better than dropping the gun or unslinging it and shooting strong hand only IMHO. A good two point with plenty of extra length is king. Being able to adjust it quickly (a la the Vickers sling) is icing on the cake. If you haven’t gotten the memo already, 3 points are a relic from another time. May as well run it out as a two point.
What a great experience!
I had a blast. This was my first class and I learned a lot about movement, transition from long gun to handgun, and what I need to work on.
I have let my handgun skills suffer, and I really need to work on them.
Everyone was great, Larry Vickers has a great attitude that puts you at ease quickly. I've known the other instructor for a couple of years, but never trained with him. He knows his stuff and is one of the nicest guys out there, and he excells at personal instruction.
Small bore Kalashnikovs predominated the class. I believe we had 16 shooters, only 4 of which used an AK in 7.62x39mm. The rest of us used 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm.
Arsenal Inc. rifles predominated, with a Vepr and a couple of Romanians making an appearance.
Regarding the Arsenal Inc. SLR-106F situation....six of us were shooting them that I can remember. Three of us had absolutely no issues what so ever.
Katar's, Grant's, and my SLR-106F's ran like raped apes. Never a hiccup. I was using '92 production Radway Green SS-109, Grant was using Winchester M855, and I think Katar was using American Eagle, but I'm not positive.
Dinger initially had several bad feeds with American Eagle, as did Vinh, but the problems went away when they switched to Wolf steel cased. GotM4 had the worst issues....his rifle would malf on American Eagle and Guat.
I believe it's an individual rifle issue. The AK was set up to run with steel cased ammo, although the 106 (and it's milled counterpart, the M5) have spring loaded firing pins to deal with US commerical ammo. It was pointed out that Federal American Eagle uses very soft, low quality brass. I think that's a contributing factor to the feed issues we saw. The round has to jump a good ways from the magazine to the chamber when feeding in an AK, and it has a tiny feed "ramp" that is riveted into the receiver.
The SLR-105 and 106 series of rifles are stamped AK-74 receivers (1mm thick) that are imported in a "banned" configuration, capable of only accepting single stack magazines. Arsenal takes them and then "unbans" them by enlarging the mag well to accept Bulgarian military polymer 5.56mm magazines, replacing the nuetered front sight block with a military one, and they then put the appropriate # of US parts in the rifle to make it a technically "American made" rifle.
It is very important that people try their mags in the rifle a few times before using them, as the polymer mags may need to be broken into the rifle. It's not that big a deal, I don't think. How many of you try the M16 mags you have in your AR for fit and function before using them or taking them to a class? Everyone, right?
What I was seeing with the 106's that were having issues were the rounds missing the feed ramp and being squashed by the bolt against the chamber area.
I don't want to make a blanket negative statement about the 106's, obviously some run like a top. Mine has never had any issues what so ever, but obviously some aren't so lucky. I took two magazines of American Eagle and ran them through my 106 as fast as I could, to try to see if I could induce a stoppage. No issues with the American Eagle when run through my rifle.
When looking in the receiver near the chamber of my rifle, I didn't have much brass shavings at all, while GotM4's had a lot of brass, obviously from the cases not being fed at an optimal angle.
I'm going to try to talk to Arsenal about this. I'm confident that there is a "fix". If you have an issue with yours, I'd suggest calling Arsenal and explaining what's going on, and send it in for warranty repair.
All of the Arsenal 105A1's I saw ran perfectly, as did the milled M5's and M7.
Interestingly, all of the accuracy prizes were won by guys using the SLR-106FR's.
Glocks seemed to be the handgun of choice for most shooters, with a couple of SIG's and M&P's, 1911's, and one HKP7M13 and, at least on the first day, a TT-33 Tokarev!
I can't recommend this class enough. If you can make the time and the trip, definitely try to get in, even if you have to buy a new AK to do it!
Now for some pics. These were taken using my phone, so I apologize for the quality.
Sighting in on the line:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00007.jpg
Old school and new school:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00011.jpg
GotM4 and Dinger gearing up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00012.jpg
Larry Vickers and his bunny at Cracker Barrel the first night:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00016.jpg
On the line, Day 2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00009b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00004b.jpg
Dinger and the Vinhinator:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00007-1.jpg
Downtime:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00011-2.jpg
Larry Vickers explaining how to get the job done with a Sturmgewehr:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00012-1.jpg
Panzerschreck loading up the Sturmgewehr. He and I have wanted one of these things since we were 12 I think.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00014.jpg
Shooting on the move:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00015-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00016-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00018.jpg
My buddy Dave expressing how most of us felt about the class:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00006.jpg
The Man Himself........:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00020.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00021.jpg
Very interesting reviews and photos!
I am taking this class in May and am looking forward to it. Did you guys not shoot any steel?
Thanks also for the tip on the recoil buffer. Do they smooth things out pretty well?
I would argue against the recoil buffer. Really, really argue against it.
It's not needed and I've seen more issues resulting from one being installed than just leaving it stock.
Black Jack Buffers sells their safety with the tab and the bolt handle cut out, which can't be recommended enough.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/BJswiftN.jpg
http://http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202&zenid=4805e49dda5ed09e5064dcc590c2876c
We shot a small steel plate at distance in a competition, but eveything else was paper.
I know you're going to have a great time in May!
Heavy Metal
03-12-07, 15:31
Templar,
Don't forget, I also used an SAR-3 for a half a day and it ran 100%. That means there were at least 4 5.56mm stamped reciever rifles that ran hiccup free.
This says it is not a design issue like the use of stampings but a QA/QC issue where something ain't quite tweaked right on the 106's.
I traded Dinger off some wolf for federal that I will be using for testing in my 2 106's.
One 106 has been fired with Wolf and Remmington commercial without any ammo hang ups like were going on at the class. The other is unfired in the box.
I will see if either exihibit the same issue as the rifles in the class did.
John_Wayne777
03-12-07, 15:35
Could you share with us:
Slings - what worked, what didn't
Single points worked, but Vickers is not a big fan of them. They are very easy to use for switching shoulders, but he contends that they suck for everything else. Having used one for a bit on my AR now, I have to agree with him on that. Great for switching to the left shoulder....they stink for about everything else.
Larry has his name on a quick adjust two point sling from Blue Force Gear that seems to work pretty well.
Three point slings bite the big one. I used one through this course and I was constantly fighting with it. I never noticed how bad they suck before because I had never worn anything on my chest before. I had always just used a simple duty belt in the past. It had always had moments of real suckitude like when it would stop me from using the bolt release on an AR during a stress course, but it had always been a manageable level of suck. This time with the SKD Eagle chest rig I was constantly fussing with the sling to get it out of the velcro on the pouches or to keep it from getting hung up on my pistol magazines and dragging them out. It was maddening.
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
The students all had some sort of chest rig. There were a couple of SKD Eagle rigs, a couple of plain Eagle rigs, and a couple of armor carrier rigs with pouches on them.
After doing some prone work folks started moving stuff around to allow for better prone positioning.
Simpler really is better. Mags crammed into cargo pants would work just fine too.
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
I believe GotM4 had some busted clear polymer mags, but the AK expert (I believe it is Templar...) said there were a couple of bad production runs of that type of 5.56 magazine.
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?
I think there were only three people shooting 7.62x39mm, me with my VEPR-K, Larry with his reworked 300 buck Romanian rifle, and a PMC who was in the class with a pretty beat up rifle. I believe everyone else was using either 5.56 AKs or 5.45 AKs, with the majority being 5.56 AKs made by Arsenal.
Incidentally, some of the rifles had serious reliability problems with various ammo types. GotM4's rifle was a friggin death ray when it ran, but every now and then it would choke for various reasons. Early on the first day Vin had to mortar a round out of his deathray rifle, and a couple of other guys kept having problems with American Eagle brass cased ammo getting smushed by the rifle. Steel cased seemed to run better.
I'll let the AK tech experts tell you more about that because I have nowhere near the knowledge they do of the platform...but I can say that I was happy to be packing my VEPR-K in 7.62x39mm even though it was a heavy bastard and was slower to get followup shots with because of the lack of a muzzle brake.
Some of those guys were shooting AKs that just flat didn't move under recoil, and their targets showed just how beneficial this can be.
I was also thankful that I installed one of the Blackjack safety levers with the finger tab on it. Those things are awesome at helping to overcome one of the big ergonomic problems with the AK, namely the safety lever. I used the notched lever that can also operate as a bolt hold-open, but this feature is only useful as a means of locking the bolt open to show clear when you are on the range.
It is actually a detriment to try and use the holdopen notch when trying to clear malfunctions or reload the weapon.
The sweet setup seemed to be an AK with a good brake, an Ultimak gas tube, and a red dot optic. The guys packing that kind of equipment had consistently good performance...although some of the iron sighters did extremely well too. The guys who spent lots of time shooting AKs were really easy to spot. The guys with the neat doo-dads I mentioned were easy to spot by their targets.
Poor bastards who hadn't done much of anything with an AK and who didn't pimp theirs out were also pretty easy to spot by their targets too. (namely me...)
Heavy Metal
03-12-07, 16:31
I used a reworked toilet hole stocked 7.62x39 romanian the first day and a half that had a surefire rail and an eotech.
The sight picture on the EoTech is just too high on this set up, an Aimpoint would be better.
John, you did fine man!
I also started out using a 3 point, an old CQB solutions (now Specter Gear), that I had. I figured it was the most "tactical" sling I had in my box o' stuff, so I put it on my SLR-106FR. It does screw with you when you're wearing a chest rig, I'd usually used it with a mag pouch on my belt. After listening to Larry give me a hard time about it, and realizing he was right, I switched to my RPK sling that I had on my back up rifle, my SLR-105A1. This is a simple cotton web sling, just like a standard AK sling, but a little longer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Sling%20Know%20How/Slingknowhow007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Sling%20Know%20How/Slingknowhow014.jpg
I swapped it to my 106 and it worked very well. When I ran it out all the way, I could put it over my right shoulder and it hung the rifle in front of me very well, and I could move it over to my left side and there it would stay. I actually had it slung that way when I was firing Larry's Sturmgewehr.
I picked up a Vicker's 2 point at the class and I'm going to give that a try.
For chest rigs, I brought two. The one I used was a Specter Gear M1 Mk.1, which I've had for a while. I like it because it's not bulky, and will work with just about every magazine system I have, M14, M16, AK-47, and AK-74. I also slapped a Bianchi single pistol mag pouch on it, intended for the belt, and it was very secure and worked great.
http://www.spectergear.com/os_chest_rig.htm
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Smith%20M14/SmithM14.jpg
The second rig I brought, but did not use, was a current Polish military 6 cell chest system. I tried it on a few times but felt it was too bulky for my needs. I am really happy with the Specter M1 Mk.1.
I used a SIG P226 in 9mm in a Galco Avenger on my belt. I've had the pistol a while, I used to shoot pretty decently with it, but I've let my skills deteriorate, especially dealing with the first double action pull. After that, I'm fine, but I was shooting high consistently on my first shot with it.
I ran iron sights, and did fairly well with them, although I'm really wanting to try an Aimpoint on my SLR-106FR. I have a side mount ready to go, but after playing around with GotM4's set up, I really like it, you can co-witness the irons with it.
The feeding issues that three of the guys using the 106's encountered look to be fairly easily fixed. I talked with Dinger on the phone today and he said that Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn already came up with a very easy fix based on Larry and my observations on what was going on during the class. I'm still going to try to talk to Arsenal and let them know what I observed.
John, you, my buddy Dave M, the PMC, the Navy guy, and Larry used 7.62x39mm AK's. Larry and the PMC used Romanian rifles, the Navy guy used a Chinese rifle, and Dave used a milled receiver Arsenal Inc. SA-M7.
I saw at least two guys, including sub-zero, using Arsenal Inc. SLR-105A1's (AK-74's in 5.45mm).
The rest of us used 5.56x45mm rifles, with two milled SA-M5's and the rest stamped.
Again, I had a great time, I'm really looking forward to taking more classes as I can, and learning all I can.
Heavy Metal
03-12-07, 17:28
Templar,
Where can I get a longer RPK sling?
Templar,
Where can I get a longer RPK sling?
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any for a while. You might want to give Ohio Rapidfire a call and ask if they have any slings for sale that came in with the RPK-74 kits that they are selling.
Also, as to magazines......
Guys, please, save yourself an immense amount of heartache and only use imported military magazines. Bulgarian, Russian, Polish, East German, Hungarian, Chinese, etc, it doesn't matter, they all work well. Stay away from US manufactured magazines, like ProMag or USA.
Kicka** F***ing class. Larry Vickers and the not named instructor were both excellent. I learned a lot this weekend, a lot about shooting and moving and a lot about the AK. Blaster22s and my opinion of the 106 after speaking with Templar our thought is that the 5.56mm AKs need to be built on milled receivers. The milled 5.56 AKs used in this class ran 100%. I think all of the stamped ones jammed at least once. We think it's the flexing of the stamped receiver causing this. A 1.6mm receiver may work, but without Arsenal testing know one really knows. I had about 20 failures to fully chamber a round this weekend with my AK-106. This may be the very first class were this many stamped 5.56 AK were used in and pushed this hard. Most of the failures were with American Eagle 55gr FMJ, and less so with Guatamalan, Radway Green, and Wolf.
I think my 106 was the only one without a single malfunction (using M855). I also shot AE (60rds) through mine without an issue.
C4
I think my 106 was the only one without a single malfunction (using M855). I also shot AE (60rds) through mine without an issue.
C4
Neither mine nor Katar's had any issues what so ever, three ran like cheetahs and three had some issues with ammo to varying degrees, with GotM4's being the worst.
As soon as Dinger and Vinh switched to steel cased Wolf, their issues went away.
I was using '92 Radway Green SS-109 and Katar was using Federal American Eagle.
Again, I think it was a rifle by rifle issue, which should have a fairly easy fix.
AK47 class: $375
Hotel/food: $170
Ammo $220
Former Death Dealn, Delta Force Operator hugging two fuzzy bunnies in public and posing with a bunny hat on....
PRICELESS!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00016.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/P_00021.jpg
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 21:28
I think my 106 was the only one without a single malfunction (using M855). I also shot AE (60rds) through mine without an issue.
C4
Cool.
But something that cannot run on American Eagle has something wrong with it!
My serial number is 0312. As Tim said any 5.56/.223 AK ever used by any military was a milled gun. I think they're on to something there (maybe not, but it screams clue).
Katars had many more rounds through it than mine as well. Mine was on it's first 1k rounds at the class.
Jay Cunningham
03-12-07, 21:39
Some pics:
Sam's AKM
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/73/vickerstacticalakclassmzm6.jpg
Vihnninator servicing threats with the Sturmgewehr
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5585/vickerstacticalakclassmjf1.jpg
The Navy Guy fires the AKM
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7049/vickerstacticalakclassmir6.jpg
Templar offers a mag for the StG
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/3572/vickerstacticalakclassmau5.jpg
Grant rockin and rollin
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/6962/vickerstacticalakclassmbt0.jpg
A small part of LAV's impressive collection
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7876/vickerstacticalakclassmgq9.jpg
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 21:45
Heavy Metal rockin and rollin
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/6962/vickerstacticalakclassmbt0.jpg
I'm pretty sure that's the infamous 'Grant'! ;) he's got all the Gucci sh** on!
Jay Cunningham
03-12-07, 21:45
Cool.
But something that cannot run on American Eagle has something wrong with it!
My serial number is 0312. As Tim said any 5.56/.223 AK ever used by any military was a milled gun. I think their on to something there.
Katars had many more rounds through it than mine as well. Mine was on it's first 1k at the class.
My 106 now has approx 1500 rounds through it with no malfs; approx. 800 rounds XM-193 and 700 rounds Federal AE 55gr. No issues of any kind.
They can be put together right - looks like some kind of QC thing.
Jay Cunningham
03-12-07, 21:48
I'm pretty sure that's the infamous 'Grant'! ;) he's got all the Gucci sh** on!
Right you are! Saw that hair and got confused!
:cool:
Robb Jensen
03-12-07, 21:48
Neither mine nor Katar's had any issues what so ever, three ran like cheetahs and three had some issues with ammo to varying degrees, with GotM4's being the worst.
As soon as Dinger and Vinh switched to steel cased Wolf, their issues went away.
I was using '92 Radway Green SS-109 and Katar was using Federal American Eagle.
Again, I think it was a rifle by rifle issue, which should have a fairly easy fix.
I had exactly one jam with Wolf. It required the 'mortar' to get it out.
Mines going back. Jammed on Radway Green, Guatamalan, American Eagle, & Wolf. Only shot 20 rounds of Barnual so can't say for sure on that.
I'm an old firefighter, if it can be broken/disabled I can do it. Lock me in a container with two steel bowling balls and come back an hour later and I'll break one and lose the other!
I'm not saying you're wrong Robb, I'm just saying I think it will be a fairly easy fix based on what Dinger told me after talking to Larry Vickers today.
Send it back, have them fix it under warranty.
By the way, both you and Katar took some outstanding pics!
Robb Jensen
03-13-07, 05:41
What did Dinger tell you?
I'm wondering if the Ultimak rail contributed to and/or caused the problem.
The Ultimak rail (which totally replaces the gas tube) pulls itself and the barrel together with 2 barrel bands w/four screws. I'm going to remove the rail and put 500 rounds of American Eagle through with the original gas tube and top handguard and see if the problem goes away before returning it to Arsenal.
Grant was running a Surefire rail which applies pressure to the barrel but only forward and rearward pressure (just like Surefire M73s on an AR carbine do) which may or may not alter receiver flex etc. and he was using M855. TheKatar and I were the only two guys using the Ultimak rail IIRC. If it turns out to be the Ultimak causing the problem it may require altering the torque values and the use of a 'sleeving agent' (i.e. red Loc-Tite, Rocksett etc). I used a little blue Loc-Tite on the screws to help secure them.
I'm pretty sure that's the infamous 'Grant'! ;) he's got all the Gucci sh** on!
Hey now, don't be "Hatin" us Gucci guys! :D
C4
What did Dinger tell you?
I'm wondering if the Ultimak rail contributed to and/or caused the problem.
The Ultimak rail (which totally replaces the gas tube) pulls itself and the barrel together with 2 barrel bands w/four screws. I'm going to remove the rail and put 500 rounds of American Eagle through with the original gas tube and top handguard and see if the problem goes away before returning it to Arsenal.
Grant was running a Surefire rail which applies pressure to the barrel but only forward and rearward pressure (just like Surefire M73s on an AR carbine do) which may or may not alter receiver flex etc. and he was using M855. TheKatar and I were the only two guys using the Ultimak rail IIRC. If it turns out to be the Ultimak causing the problem it may require altering the torque values and the use of a 'sleeving agent' (i.e. red Loc-Tite, Rocksett etc). I used a little blue Loc-Tite on the screws to help secure them.
The fix is to lightly polish the throat/chamber.
I am going to get one of the Ultimak rail systems and see if I get generate any issues.
C4
Heavy Metal
03-13-07, 08:51
I had exactly one jam with Wolf. It required the 'mortar' to get it out.
Mines going back. Jammed on Radway Green, Guatamalan, American Eagle, & Wolf. Only shot 20 rounds of Barnual so can't say for sure on that.
I'm an old firefighter, if it can be broken/disabled I can do it. Lock me in a container with two steel bowling balls and come back an hour later and I'll break one and lose the other!
TheKatar ran a ultimak rail with zero issues.
This is a very informative thread on what works and what doesn't with an AK. Valuable!
I have a few follow-up questions for the May class.....
1. A lot of this thread focuses on what ammo did/didn't work and problems with 5.56 rifles. How much better did students shoot as a result? Sounds like accuracy was emphasized so that's probably the biggest area of improvement?
2. If you had these choices, which would you use for this class?
- old school 7.62x39 Egyptian Maadi, no muzzle brake, no rail, etc. It runs.
- 5.45 Romanian SAR-2 (has optic mount point on left side of receiver)
- 7.62 x 39 Global Trades SSR-85, no rail, mag well is too thin for Bulgarian waffle mags (they've agreed to fix....we'll see). I haven't put rounds through it because I want them to fix or replace it.....so I don't know if it runs.
3. I'm thinking about a UTG quad rail, which for $60 seems hard to beat. Then attach an Aimpoint or Reflex to it. What's the verdict on the UTG?
Sounds like a great course, good guys, and top-shelf instruction. Looking forward to it, and Dinger, thanks for organizing it.
As always, another excellent VA_Dinger class.
It was great training with the usual suspects and meeting the other guys. Good to see Will again.
I was surprised that an AK could be run in a useful manner much like an AR. I didn't know what to expect coming into the class, I thought it would just be a history and familiarization session.
Boss Hogg, I don't think you can expect immediate results. You may be given some tools at the class, but it is ultimately up to you to improve on your own time.
I would encourage students of the subsequent AK classes to try to zero ahead of time. Larry wants the rear sight on the 100 setting.
Jay Cunningham
03-13-07, 14:24
My Take-Aways:
Use an aggressive bladed stance with the carbine, weight forward on the balls of the feet. Pull the carbine into the shoulder with the support hand far out on the gun.
Stance shift on transitions, strong leg moves forward into a more square stance.
Move aggressively forward on a tactical advance, do not slow way down.
Do slow down on the transition presentation. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Don't be victimized by "El Snatcho".
Keep moving, don't cross or trip up the feet.
General Observations:
LAV is very laid back and provides the overview while his A.I. walks down the line providing more individualized advice. I did not detect any ego coming from LAV, just confidence in what he was explaining and demonstrating and why. He busts balls in a good-natured fashion but pretty much everybody else there did too.
I was very comfortable with all of the students in the class - muzzle awareness was excellent.
My Gear:
No real complaints except for the LaRue Tactical IronDot. Difficulty in field adjustment and dot wash-out in bright light make this version (utilizing the PrideFowler) a non-starter for serious use. The QD mount is good to go, so perhaps a different platform (Burris, Trijicon, Docter) in the mount might work. Must be able to adjust with audible/tactile "clicks" in the field.
5.56mm MagPuls made administrative mag changes and malfunction clearance drills very easy.
General Gear Observations:
The proven winning setup is a small caliber AK with an adjustable 2 point sling (must have a side-mounted swivel), a Blackjack Buffers Notched SWIFT Lever and an UltiMAK or Surefire with an Aimpoint or Docter. The UltiMAK and Aimpoint allow for co-witness. The SLR-106 series rifle has QC issues on particular rifles, so the recommended winning caliber is 5.45mm. Chest carriers worked best with 3 across the chest, or 2 on each side leaving the chest uncovered. Gloves are a must with Kalashnikov platforms - they're sharp and get hot in weird places.
Final Thoughts:
I'll be replacing the rear 2 dot tritium sights on my Glock with a Heine Slant-Pro and adding a grip plug. There's another nifty new gadget coming out for the Glock, but I don't know if it's public knowledge yet - but I'm getting one. I'm configuring a 5.45mm SLR-105 in an identical fashion to my 106. I'll either be using an Aimpoint Comp M2 or the new Micro Aimpoint.
I enjoyed meeting everybody, especially Paul, Grant and Tim. I plan on training with all of you in the future.
Guys, I spoke with the president of Arsenal Inc. today on the phone for a while.
He was very concerned with the # of rifles with feed issues. Anyone that has had an issue like this, call Arsenal and get a Return Athorization # (RA) and send it back for work. Include all your magazines as well, I'd put some tape on them and # them or put your name on them, and include the # in a note that you send in with the rifle, to make sure you get the same # back.
I will be taking pictures of the rounds that were retrieved that did not feed.
Short story......he feels that there are a combination of issues. One is that there are several runs, or generations, of the polymer magazines. Some of the early 106's had some tighter tolerances that did not allow for the acceptance of a multitude of slight variances regarding magazines.
A simple throat and polish job is probably not going to cut it.
My serial # is 1620, and I haven't had problem 1 with it. It runs and runs and runs and has fed everything I've put in it, whether it is military grade 5.56mm, civillian commercial brass .223, or Russian steel cased ammo.
Believe me that they want to be very proactive about this.
Give them about a day to digest the email I'm sending to them tonight. The president of Arsenal will be forwarding it to Arsenal Bulgaria, to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Here's the phone # for Arsenal Inc.
(888) 539-2220
Remember that they are on Pacific Time.
I don't work for Arsenal Inc., but I used to sell a bunch of them and I have a good working relationship with them. Hopefully they'll get this straightend out ASAP.
Boss Hogg, I'd take both your Maadi and your SAR-2. The SAR-2 would probably be my choice as a main rifle, the accuracy and controllability of the 5.45mm round vs. the 7.62x39mm round was in evidence at the class. If you want to go "old school" and use a rifle that would be a typical "battlefield pick up", then I'd go with the Maadi as the primary rifle.
Either way, you'll enjoy the hell out of the class.
Katar, it was great to meet you too and share a few beers.
Jay Cunningham
03-13-07, 15:01
The last four numbers of my serial are 0144.
Thekatar, Templar, et al, thanks very much for sharing your lessons learned from this class.
Unlike some other forums, one of which is "introduce yourself" "Godorators", this site is great and focused on shooting. Gracias.
Thekatar, Templar, et al, thanks very much for sharing your lessons learned from this class.
Unlike some other forums, one of which is run by "introduce yourself" "Godorators", this site is great and focused on shooting. Gracias.
One thing became very clear during the class:
A high quality AK can be run very effectively in the right hands. Add a few relatively cheap upgrades (UltiMAK w/ Aimpoint, Blackjack SWIFT safety/selector lever, and a BFG/Vickers sling) and you have a very capable weapon. Hell, Vihn shot the class with a bone stock SLR-106 and kept every thing in the black up until we started moving. Many shooters cannot do that with high priced AR’s w/optics. While Vihn is certainly a super hero the point is that the AK did not hold him back one bit.
I would feel totally comfortable shooting a high quality AK set up like Gotm4's in any situation.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKROBB.jpg
Before the class I just considered Ak’s to be very reliable and “Good enough”. While mine ended up being less than reliable with American Eagle ammo the weapon itself was far more than just good enough. All it takes is a high quality AK, training, limited accessories & upgrades, and a committed shooter to make the AK shine.
One thing became very clear during the class:
A high quality AK can be run very effectively in the right hands. Add a few relatively cheap upgrades (UltiMAK w/ Aimpoint, Blackjack SWIFT safety/selector lever, and a BFG/Vickers sling) and you have a very capable weapon. Hell, Vihn shot the class with a bone stock SLR-106 and kept every thing in the black up until we started moving. Many shooters cannot do that with high priced AR’s w/optics. While Vihn is certainly a super hero the point is that the AK did not hold him back one bit.
I would feel totally comfortable shooting a high quality AK set up like Gotm4's in any situation.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKROBB.jpg
No doubt! I am fairly certain that I could hurt some high end AR shooters feelings with my 106. :D
C4
While Vihn is certainly a super hero the point is that the AK did not hold him back one bit.
Vihn is a human Ransom Rest. I asked him once how much dry fire he does. His reply? Not much. I can only imagine he has insane concentration on the fundamentals when he shoots. I hope to grow up and be like Vihn.
Vihn, didn't mean to talk about you in the third person. I meant no disrespect, godfather.:D
No doubt! I am fairly certain that I could hurt some high end AR shooters feelings with my 106. :D
C4
You are the prefect example.
You shot the class very well. Having taken a few classes with you in the past I really don't think shooting a red-dot equipped Arsenal AK hurt your performance one bit.
I'm really glad that this class has opened the eyes of a good many AR shooters to what an AK is capable of.....and also what it's not.
Larry was smacking the hell out of the small steel plate with a bottom of the barrel Romanian AK that had been gussied up cosmetically some.
Jay Cunningham
03-16-07, 16:03
I'm really glad that this class has opened the eyes of a good many AR shooters to what an AK is capable of.....and also what it's not.
Larry was smacking the hell out of the small steel plate with a bottom of the barrel Romanian AK that had been gussied up cosmetically some.
+1
Just to make it clear, Larry was smacking steel past 100m with irons on an effing WASR...
Yes, a WASR.
:p
+1
Just to make it clear, Larry was smacking steel past 100m with irons on an effing WASR...
Yes, a WASR.
:p
FYI - 9" x 14" steel plate
Hint: Not very big
:D
Actually, it was 9x12". Templar was hitting it past 150M with his iron sighted 106...
Jay Cunningham
03-17-07, 10:07
Actually, it was 9x12". Templar was hitting it past 150M with his iron sighted 106...
Speaking of that...
I was one of the six shooting 106 platforms but I switched out my trigger group to a G2 because I like a one-stage and a crip reset. Were the rest running the stock two stage trigger? Did you fellas like the two-stage trigger at the end of the two days? How was the effect on accuracy at longer ranges vs. speed at closer ranges?
GotM4 also switched his out to the single stage G2, but I believe the rest of us were using the original double stage trigger.
I haven't found the double stage to slow me down at all. When I was trying to induce a malfunction with mine, I dumped the two mags as fast as I could and I didn't notice a difference in speed between the new two stage and the old style single stage.
I want to install the double stage in my SLR-105A1.
I felt it was a great help in ranged shooting.
Again though, it's what you're used to. While the majority of my shooting over the years has been with the standard AK single stage "rolling" trigger, I had enough time on the 106FR double stage to feel very comfortable with it.
Heavy Metal
03-17-07, 10:41
Copy and Paste:
36 45 48.7N 77 53 55.4W
And see what you get;)
GotM4 also switched his out to the single stage G2, but I believe the rest of us were using the original double stage trigger.
I haven't found the double stage to slow me down at all. When I was trying to induce a malfunction with mine, I dumped the two mags as fast as I could and I didn't notice a difference in speed between the new two stage and the old style single stage.
I want to install the double stage in my SLR-105A1.
I felt it was a great help in ranged shooting.
Again though, it's what you're used to. While the majority of my shooting over the years has been with the standard AK single stage "rolling" trigger, I had enough time on the 106FR double stage to feel very comfortable with it.
I am generally a trigger snob (run Geiselle triggers in my AR's), but the trigger in my AK was ok I thought and I did well enough with it.
Prior to this class I had under 200rds through my Ak! :eek: So I imagine that if I actually spent some time with the trigger, I could really shoot it well.
C4
Copy and Paste:
36 45 4N 77 53 5W
And see what you get;)
Ok, why? Is it Ok to put that up here?
Copy and Paste:
36 45 48.7N 77 53 55.4W
And see what you get;)
I get a location very close to "the range".
Mike
Heavy Metal
03-17-07, 16:46
Ok, why? Is it Ok to put that up here?
I don't think it is confidential information.
FYI - I just sent out the Backyard Outfitter / Vickers Tactical order form for Woolrich Elite products to everybody in the class. Having attended a VT class you now get a discount.
Please let me know if you did not receive it.
Please be sure to support Backyard Outfitter / Woolrich Elite. They went out of their way to offer these discounts to Vickers Tactical students.
John_Wayne777
03-21-07, 09:32
FYI - I just sent out the Backyard Outfitter / Vickers Tactical order form for Woolrich Elite products to everybody in the class. Having attended a VT class you now get a discount.
Please let me know if you did not receive it.
Please be sure to support Backyard Outfitter / Woolrich Elite. They went out of their way to offer these discounts to Vickers Tactical students.
It looks great.
I will certainly be buying some Woolrich stuff soon!
Jay Cunningham
03-21-07, 14:22
Thanks for the .pdf form; I was planning on buying a Woolrich Elite Lightweight Vest anyway. I think I'll toss a ballcap in now as well, the savings is pretty substantial.
I get a location very close to "the range".
Mike
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/dasoahc/range.jpg
NCPatrolAR
03-22-07, 11:58
Was there any lowlight training done?
Was there any lowlight training done?
No, not in this class.
FYI - I just sent out the Backyard Outfitter / Vickers Tactical order form for Woolrich Elite products to everybody in the class. Having attended a VT class you now get a discount.
Please be sure to support Backyard Outfitter / Woolrich Elite. They went out of their way to offer these discounts to Vickers Tactical students.
Backyard Outfiiter rocks !!!
LAV forwarded me the order form since the GA short bus crew took his class last weekend. I placed the fax order for a shirt, discrete pants and lightweight pants on Wednesday. The shirt arrived TODAY, what a super fast service. The pants however were backordered.
Based on the sage advice of the guys who took the first course, I'll probably go with a setup like this for the May course.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p771ac37b8d3fffb6d0d74579f5147f88/ea324c0f.jpg
Jay Cunningham
03-26-07, 16:01
Based on the sage advice of the guys who took the first course, I'll probably go with a setup like this for the May course.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p771ac37b8d3fffb6d0d74579f5147f88/ea324c0f.jpg
That looks pretty darn good, but since I now have some experience, let me give you some additional advice:
Get a buttstock that has the swivel mounted on the side, or if you're handy do it yourself.
Let Larry advise you on how to properly set up his sling, he'll be happy to.:p
Put a SWIFT lever on there if you don't already have one.
You'll have a great time in class.
That looks pretty darn good, but since I now have some experience, let me give you some additional advice:
Get a buttstock that has the swivel mounted on the side, or if you're handy do it yourself.
Let Larry advise you on how to properly set up his sling, he'll be happy to.:p
Put a SWIFT lever on there if you don't already have one.
You'll have a great time in class.
Yeah, I was wondering why the Vickers sling has 8' of extra webbing on it. :p I just threw it on there for a photo.
I'm ordering a black extended stock from K-Var (if their website is ever back up), which has a sling on the side, and a SWIFT lever (if they ever get more!)
Will be interested to see how the UTG rail holds up during the class.
Yeah, I was wondering why the Vickers sling has 8' of extra webbing on it. :p I just threw it on there for a photo.
I'm ordering a black extended stock from K-Var (if their website is ever back up), which has a sling on the side, and a SWIFT lever (if they ever get more!)
Will be interested to see how the UTG rail holds up during the class.
Place a "Want to Buy" ad on www.akforum.net for that NATO length stock, as most people take that off first thing to install a Warsaw Pact length.
Otherwise, http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=283&page=1
Place a "Want to Buy" ad on www.akforum.net for that NATO length stock, as most people take that off first thing to install a Warsaw Pact length.
Otherwise, http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=283&page=1
Interesting- I kind of prefer the longer length of my 80s-era Yugo's stock.
Since my SAR-2 already has a Warsaw Pact length stock, and I have (1) a drill bit, (2) slotted screwdriver, and (3) electric drill, I can try the rear part of the sling (a) near the receiver and (b) shoulder end of the stock. (a) would also allow for a Wilderness single point sling, which I'm sure LAV would hate.
Thanks for the tips.
Jay Cunningham
03-26-07, 19:31
Interesting- I kind of prefer the longer length of my 80s-era Yugo's stock.
Since my SAR-2 already has a Warsaw Pact length stock, and I have (1) a drill bit, (2) slotted screwdriver, and (3) electric drill, I can try the rear part of the sling (a) near the receiver and (b) shoulder end of the stock. (a) would also allow for a Wilderness single point sling, which I'm sure LAV would hate.
Thanks for the tips.
LAV hates 3 point slings. He simply dislikes 1 pointers...
Mounting the adjustable 2 point close as possible to the receiver seems to be the way to go.
One question about mounting the BFG LAV sling by an AK's receiver. Wouldn't the sling and buckle get between your cheek and the stock? I will post photos later to show you what I mean.
NCPatrolAR
03-28-07, 12:36
How you have the sling mounted in your pic is how I have the VCAS setup on each of the long guns I use them on. The fastex buckle is toward the front of the gun.
I mounted the Romanian swivel as shown below. I don't think it will fit in the blue "X" because it would hit the screw shown by the yellow line.
I'll probably end up mounting it near the shoulder end, like K-Var's, as I believe there will be cheek weld issues.
FWIW, my Yugo AK has a sling swivel riveted to the receiver itself.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pf217c26ab3a9e19dc75dec95ea8d09a0/ea2632c6.jpg
I found three more photos from class #1.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0001-1.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0009-1.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/2007_0311AKCLASS0008-1.jpg
Heavy Metal
03-30-07, 17:19
Please be sure to support Backyard Outfitter / Woolrich Elite. They went out of their way to offer these discounts to Vickers Tactical students.
Dinger, I got the order form in your email. Do they have a website or a PDF catalog where I can look at pictures of the items?
Dinger, I got the order form in your email. Do they have a website or a PDF catalog where I can look at pictures of the items?
I'm not Dinger, but in case he doesn't see this soon...
http://www.backyardoutfitter.com/Index.htm
I've done business from them, and am a satisfied customer.
Robb Jensen
03-30-07, 22:57
I placed two orders on Monday and got one of them today! WooHoo! :D
Heavy Metal
03-31-07, 20:42
Folks, I have found a fix for the SLR-106 brass biting problem. I sent this to Templar earlier.
I have two 106's (so they can be breed). I brought neither to the class. One I fired fairly extensively before and some after the class. It eats it all. The other rifle was unfired prior to class and I fired it and the other the weekend after. It did the same thing as half the class was suffering from and did it with nice, heavy mil-spec guat brass at that:
I was working on it when I got your PM today. I have just got back from the range.
I collected my brass last range session and looked at the 'claw' marks on the shoulder area. It became apparent that it was the sharp transition between the ramp on the breechface and the chamber that was biting it. Just as was first suspected at the class. You could see the claw marks on the rounds chambered by the action cycling and on the 2nd SLR-106, it was so bad you could see it on the fired casings quite readily.
I knocked off the edge with a round stone, polished it with a round stone and then buzzed it with a dremel and a felt bob. First with fine valve grinding compound and then with JB Bore paste to finish.
I just got back from the range. The fired brass and the unfired but cycled rounds I removed from the chamber and examned were clean in the shoulder area now.
There are only a handful of brass shavings on the bullet guide now. Last time it was covered with them and I fired far more brass today.
Guat, Privi Partisan and two magazines of the Federal I traded Dinger for.
I am going to go back and do my other rifle even though is isn't as bad and did not malfunction. This is easy insurance.
There is a fix now for the 'brass biting' problem we encountered at class at a minimum.
All I did was slightly roll the edge between the chamber and the steep feedramp on the breechface and polish it up. If you do this, keep things stone and metal from contacting the interior of the chamber above all else.
Folks, if you are uncomfortable with such a procedure, just sent it in and do not attempt this.
Did any of the participants running iron sights use this Krebs peep sight?
http://www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/12-13-06/peepsights2.jpg
Did any of the participants running iron sights use this Krebs peep sight?
I don't think so, but I'd love to own one.
I don't think so, but I'd love to own one.
Mr. Krebs may want to bring some to sell at the May class ;)
Jay Cunningham
04-01-07, 20:44
I'm positive I saw at least one "peep" sight installed, but I don't know if it was a Krebs or MOJO.
I'm positive I saw at least one "peep" sight installed, but I don't know if it was a Krebs or MOJO.
Didn't Heavy Metal have one on one of his rifles?
Chris914 had one of the Williams peep sights on his SLR-105. He seemed to like it.
I never noticed a Krebs or Mojo.
Heavy Metal
04-02-07, 11:28
Didn't Heavy Metal have one on one of his rifles?
I did (a Krebs) but it was strickly a back up to the Eotech on my .30 cal and I never used it during class.
It works OK and is mabey a little bit more accurate than the standard notch but not enormously so. I would put my money elswhere. Especially the safety.
I did (a Krebs) but it was strickly a back up to the Eotech on my .30 cal and I never used it during class.
I wish I’d have known you had a Krebs sight at the class. I would have liked to check it out.
Heavy Metal
05-27-07, 12:31
I'm pretty sure that's the infamous 'Grant'! ;) he's got all the Gucci sh** on!
That's Grant, not me.
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