View Full Version : S&W M&P15
Any love or hate for those here? I have a good friend ask me about the after seeing a sale from CDNN.
I love mine I have the 15A, which is the flat-top with the troy folding rear battlesight. If you look at that chart that is in the knowledge section, you will see that you really do get alot for your money. Fit & finish is excellent. Now until December 1st, S&W including 5 free P-Mags as a rebate. My M&P is a great rifle. I'm not an expert by any means, but Id say you can't go wrong with one. You may hear bad stories about earlier M&P models, which had DPMS parts on them including the barells, but S&W now manufactures their rifles in house. Like I said the quality is outstanding, and S&W customer support, in my opinion, is up there along with Ruger and other good companies.
Thanks. I've seen the chart before on other sites, but I also like to hear from peoples own experiences. The one he's looking at is a flat top. I believe he said it had a rebate with the 5 P-mags and was just below $800.
I have a M&P15R which fires the 5.45x39 round. Had a few problems with it early on but S&W were great, I shipped it back to them and they fixed all the problems I was having. Since then its been a great rifle, very happy with it and the customer service i received.
Try using the search function on the forum to reduce the amount of redundant threads that get started. Another good way of searching the forum is to use Google, for example type this:
site:m4carbine.net S&W M&P15
And then Google will bring up lots of results for you as well. Good luck in your quest.
mhanna91
I've recently been considering adding a 5.45 x 39 rifle to my stable, but I've thinking of going over to the dark side and getting an AK74. I've never considered an AR, so that brings up other options. Thanks
350_eight08
12-11-09, 11:01
I bought an M&P15T when the first came out. This is when they had various companies making the lowers for them. My gripe with the gun was that it would not accept PMAGS and some GI mags and so sent it back to S&W. A few weeks later the gun comes back, no work performed, with a letter stating that they will only guarantee function with mags provided with the gun and that everything was to spec. You can imagine I was not happy with that! In the end, I swapped out the lower with a CMMG and never looked back!
I heard on another board that the have cured the problem and that the rifle actually comes with PMAGS... ofcourse I was not happy again, not after they told me they will only guarantee the mags supplied with the gun (at that time). Oh well water under the bridge.
The gun shoots great, haven't had any issues with the LPK or the BCG, and it eats a variety of ammo. I have only shot around 5K rounds but so far so good!:D
Any love or hate for those here? I have a good friend ask me about the after seeing a sale from CDNN.
This is a better deal than what CDNN is offering: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002
C4
Thanks, I'll give him a heads up. Does that also include the rebate for 5 P-mags. How do you like these compared to Colt, BCM & LMT? I believe his plan is for casual target practice and home defense. He also plans to enroll in some of the AR classes.
AnimalMother556
12-11-09, 12:39
This is a better deal than what CDNN is offering: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002
C4
The price on the rifles Grant is selling would be hard to beat. While Colt, BCM, LMT and other Tier 1 companies do produce higher quality weapons, the S&W is no slouch and should serve your friends purposes well. Also, considering the low price of the rifles from Grant, he could buy a nice pile of ammunition to go with his new rifle.
I defiantly agree that the price is more appealing than the ones mentioned. I'm just trying to see how they stack up against the "big boys".
AnimalMother556
12-11-09, 12:44
I defiantly agree that the price is more appealing than the ones mentioned. I'm just trying to see how they stack up against the "big boys".
Relative to their cost, pretty damn well.
I've had a 15T for a few years now. When other Officers in my agency had problems with reliability, Smith was on a plane the next day to come out and fix the problem. They ended up replacing all of our uppers, even though most had no issues at all.
While the early rifle seemed to be really hit and miss, it seems as though the early teething problems have been resolved.
Unless you have a need to shoot bullets heavier than 69gr, the Smith is a great choice.
Heck, you guys almost got me talked into one. I'm sure "The Boss" would really like that. She's really happy that I'm going to home for a while with my injury.
irishluck73
Thanks, I've already done that. I'm just looking for updates from people that had them for a while. Besides, some people get a little upset when a person resurrects old threads.
Markman, I previously owned an early-model M&P15T for two years. It initially had short-stroking issues, and was sent back to S&W for repairs. After that, I had nothing but flawless operation from it.
Last week I sold it to a friend of mine and purchased another S&W to replace it--this time, the 15X model with a standard non-FF handguard. (I didn't need all the rail estate, and the new one balances better for me.) The new rifle has one feature that the old one didn't: M4 ramps. Other than that, it's the same quality as the old one: CL barrel/chamber, F-marked FSB, mil-spec buffer tube, MP marked bolt, correct extractor & o-ring.
The old M&P saw plenty of actual deployment as a patrol rifle, and I certainly didn't baby it. The new rifle will perform the same function when I return to work.
powderkeg45
12-11-09, 15:05
I love my M&P 15A. It had some ammo feeding issues at first, but after a few hundred rounds break-in it has been great.
The 15A seems to be the popular model.
The 15A seems to be the popular model.
Well, it's one of the more basic models for people who are going to add their own rails and other accessories, or for those who want a simple carbine without all the bells and whistles.;)
Thanks, I'll give him a heads up. Does that also include the rebate for 5 P-mags. How do you like these compared to Colt, BCM & LMT? I believe his plan is for casual target practice and home defense. He also plans to enroll in some of the AR classes.
All S&W AR's are eligible for the free PMAG's.
C4
ztf HITMAN
12-11-09, 20:09
I heart my 15A as well
600rds of various weight and brand without a hiccup through my M&P15x.
benthughes
12-12-09, 03:27
I really liked my S&W M&P. It was lightweight, well built and overall a good shooter. The main reason I let the upper go was the 1/9 twist rate, which in hindsight, was dumb because most of the ammo I shoot is 55 Gr which loves that twist rate. I'd have put it through a carbine class without hesitation, but......... Anyhoo, Smith seems to be diversifying and putting out some good stuff for the price.
I think "the chart" has some value but scares newer people who think their rifle will disintegrate if pushed. I think most black rifles out there will handle most everything a recreational shooter will dish out. I got a Stag and was very dismayed when I read the chart. Then I went out and shot the piss out of it and didn't have an issue. Smith I'd say is a step up from Stag in my experience, don't care what chart says.
I bought an M&P15T when the first came out. This is when they had various companies making the lowers for them. My gripe with the gun was that it would not accept PMAGS and some GI mags and so sent it back to S&W. A few weeks later the gun comes back, no work performed, with a letter stating that they will only guarantee function with mags provided with the gun and that everything was to spec. You can imagine I was not happy with that! In the end, I swapped out the lower with a CMMG and never looked back!
I heard on another board that the have cured the problem and that the rifle actually comes with PMAGS... ofcourse I was not happy again, not after they told me they will only guarantee the mags supplied with the gun (at that time). Oh well water under the bridge.
The gun shoots great, haven't had any issues with the LPK or the BCG, and it eats a variety of ammo. I have only shot around 5K rounds but so far so good!:D
You should not have let the issue stop there. Maybe you got a CSR on his / her last day with S&W. I'd have run that letter past QA and looked for a better result. PM me and I can give you the contact info for an excellent S&W CSR I have dealt with more than once.
Any chance you could post that letter here? Very strange...
sullafelix
12-12-09, 18:27
I also love my 15A- over 500 rnds through it and never a problem
I traded my friend for a New In Box M&P15A last year. I immediately had problems with the magazines being tight and not dropping free. I figured it was due to it being new but I soon realized that the mag well was out of spec and the left side of the magazine ended up wedging against the upper receiver. I called Smith and Wesson and they told me to ship it to them. They provided free shipping labels (note to Kalifornia residents - they would NOT however ship to my California address). About 3 weeks later they told me that it was being shipped back to me with a new receiver. Since then, everything has been 100% with the rifle and I'd put it on par with my Colt A2 in terms of apparent quality. It has the best "out of the box" stock trigger I have ever seen on an AR/M-16, is carbine accurate, and has been 100% reliable with about 600 rounds through it. I have since added a Trijicon optic, YHM muzzle brake, and Magpul MOE furniture and couldn't be happier with it. I'm just looking forward to putting it through it paces at a carbine course.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f32/wyorca/Firearms/IMG_2872.jpg
Not trying to hijack this thread but as far as S&W warranty..it's top notch.I had a model 629 Classic that was a little "gritty", sent it back ...the gun is flawless.S&W c/s is great.I would expect nothing less from their AR's.I have a BM AR and a 6920 and I (now) know the Smith is a step up from the BM.You should have no problems.
S&W is offering a killer deal to military or retired :40% off, and I was thinking about a piston rifle. Does any one have any experance with the piston rifle from Smith?
I have been using of a M&P15 gas gun for a year or so and no problems, it eats what I feed it.
Thanks for any input.
RobL
Got one in the houe and it's good to go. Great rifles for the cash.
Although CMMG's bargain bin rifles (Doublestar m4s from what I can tell) are a lot cheaper.
asking what you paid? and if you got the Sp or SPX?
It was during the Obama panic and I think it was $999 but we got a $200 coupon to Cabelas just for buying it. So do the math.
Right now I don't see why the average shooter doesn't just buy the CMMG bargain bin rifle.
Failure2Stop
12-16-09, 02:23
Right now I don't see why the average shooter doesn't just buy the CMMG bargain bin rifle.
Because they are a crap-shoot, and there is a vast divide between the "average" shooter and the "average" guy here in terms of needs, wants, experience, skill, and technical knowledge.
Back to the S&W guns-
They seem to be a good deal on a basic carbine.
They are not a Colt, LMT, or BCM, but neither are they DPMS, Oly, or BM.
It was during the Obama panic and I think it was $999 but we got a $200 coupon to Cabelas just for buying it. So do the math.
Right now I don't see why the average shooter doesn't just buy the CMMG bargain bin rifle.
Because those guns are generally crap.
I guess they are fine if you want to shirt dirt and not worry about it running.
I view every gun I own as the "one" I might have to use to defend my life and lives of my loved ones. "BB" guns just don't cut it for me.
C4
ztf HITMAN
12-17-09, 17:23
I view every gun I own as the "one" I might have to use to defend my life and lives of my loved ones. "BB" guns just don't cut it for me.
C4
So...Do you view the M&P 15 as "one"?
S&W is offering a killer deal to military or retired :40% off, and I was thinking about a piston rifle.
RobL
Just placed an order for a 15A through this program. Pretty good deal but the wait is a little long.
So...Do you view the M&P 15 as "one"?
I don't own a S&W AR.
Then again, I don't own a single gun built by someone other than me.
C4
Just placed an order for a 15A through this program. Pretty good deal but the wait is a little long.
What did you end up paying?
C4
firecop019
01-02-10, 09:46
I just bought the 15A through Grant, and can't wait for it to ship. I'm like a little kid on Christmas Eve. Blew my entire savings on it though, so now I have to wait to buy the light for it. I've got the rebate all printed off and ready to go I hope it really doesn't take 8-10 wks for them to deliver it though. If it does, oh well...it's free.
One of my co-workers has one (15A) and loves it. It's funny because he bought the S&W, his buddy bought the Colt through his Sheriff Department. He doesn't care for the Colt and his buddy doesn't care for the Smith.
I like that the chart was redone with explanations for everything. I didn't know what a lot of that stuff stood for and now I do. Makes me feel better about my purchase too.
I've got a 15A. The first time I fired it the mag fell out. Re-installed the mag and it happened again. I thought I just failed to tap the magazine home but on the second try, after ensuring the mag was stuffed home, it did it again.
I broke it down on the spot and looked for any reason to the problem. I found that the mag release peice was bent. You know, the L-shaped peice? I installed mag release button a little tighter and it finally caught the magazine securely.
I luckily had another peice back at the house and notified my dealer. He offered to fix it but I told him I already put my own replacement part on it. The next time I was in he gave me a new peice to replenish my stock.
I'm building my own from now on or going with boutique shop offerings. I'm with my fellow Sailor on this one. Whatever firearm you have, you should be able to pick it up in an emegency and feel confident in it's employment. Hence, "the one", mentality.
I just picked up an mp15 lower mated to a bushmaster upper and barrel. What flavor/brand barrels does S&W use in their guns? Have they always been the same? My upper receiver has a broken triangle shaped marking just in front of and to the right of the rear sight on the side. I still enjoy the way it shoots and I think it's going to be a keeper.
Scott
I just picked up an mp15 lower mated to a bushmaster upper and barrel. What flavor/brand barrels does S&W use in their guns? Have they always been the same? My upper receiver has a broken triangle shaped marking just in front of and to the right of the rear sight on the side. I still enjoy the way it shoots and I think it's going to be a keeper.
Scott
S&W makes their barrel in house via TC.
C4
Not much difference between a TC barrel with a 1/9 twist and a bushmaster barrel with similar twist. Would this be an accurate statement? One has 4140 steal and the other 4150. Any other differences?
Scott
I own a M&P15x and it is a good rifle but as mentioned it is not a Colt, BCM, or LMT. If I had it to do over again I would have bought this rifle from this vendor.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
What did you end up paying?
C4
IIRC it was a bit less than $840 shipped to the local FFL holder. Your price was about the same. Would have been faster too but not a big deal.
I've had my MP 15T for about 8-9 months now. No problems what so ever.
Its been fed both .223 and 5.56 ammo from 3 manufacturers without the first hicup. Close to 1,500 round so far.
Dumped 3 30rd mags fast as I could once to see if it might malfunction when hot...No dice. Ran out 2 more mags just fine.
Excepts and drops Pmags with no problems.
I'm well pleased with mine.
Scoby
I have a S&W MP-15MOE version. I added a Surefire light, an Aimpoint ML3 and a Vickers sling to her as well.
I've shot more than 2000 rounds through her without a problem at all. It's more reliable than the Colt M16A1 I had in the late 60's for sure. The MP-15 does need proper cleaning and lubrication though.
Not much difference between a TC barrel with a 1/9 twist and a bushmaster barrel with similar twist. Would this be an accurate statement? One has 4140 steal and the other 4150. Any other differences?
Scott
Can't really say for certain. I do know that TC makes good barrels for their other guns.
C4
It's good to hear the reports, my brother in law ordered one from Grant just before New Years eve and is excited about it.
It took some convincing for him to order on line as he isn't computer savvy, I tried to convince him to buy a BCM from Grant instead, but he settled with the S&W.
He was about to buy the same one from Gander Mountain for just about list price, and thankfully Grant had the best price that I could find. From the reports I think he'll be happy with the purchase, and with working with Grant.
Thanks for your help Grant!
It's good to hear the reports, my brother in law ordered one from Grant just before New Years eve and is excited about it.
It took some convincing for him to order on line as he isn't computer savvy, I tried to convince him to buy a BCM from Grant instead, but he settled with the S&W.
He was about to buy the same one from Gander Mountain for just about list price, and thankfully Grant had the best price that I could find. From the reports I think he'll be happy with the purchase, and with working with Grant.
Thanks for your help Grant!
He did good, before I found this site and was aware of what prices should be I picked up an M&P15OR from Gander at almost if not list price. When Grant quoted me a few months later what I should have paid, it ruined my day.. ;)
The 15OR is the bottom end M&P rifle, but the only thing I can see different from the R is the gas block as opposed to the front sight post. Not sure why Gander was charging more for the R model. BTW, I don't go to Gander anymore..
Kentucky Cop
01-15-10, 14:28
I cant get the link to copy but check out Smith & Wesson's site (new for 2010). They just came out with a few new versions of the popular M&P15 line. One in particular has the Troy TRX Extreme rail and the rest of the rifle is decked out with what appears to be the usual MOE grip and stock along with MBUS's. Smith's site is showing that it comes in a 1/7 rifle twist too. It seems they have been paying attention to the active shooters. Very nice to say the least.....
PS- I found this in the handgun section of our site. CHEERS!:D
Kentucky Cop
01-15-10, 15:29
www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...ducts_rev4.pdf
This should be it fellas.
Ky Cop
Your link is jacked. It is invalid.
If you were referring to the 2010 New Products PDF, click here (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/2010_NewProducts_rev4.pdf).
Kentucky Cop
01-15-10, 15:41
If you were referring to the 2010 New Products PDF, click here (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/2010_NewProducts_rev4.pdf).
You wouldn't believe me if I told you but I have been trying to cut and paste that damn thing for at least 30 minutes Teufeldog! I hate computers and thanks for helping a brother out! (deep breath)
Hey, no worries.
The PDF has slightly different info on the new M&P15 TS. PDF still says 1x9 barrel twist. But the product page (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=760612&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15702) lists 1x7.
Side note, the new M&P9 Pro doesn't appear to have the 'Pro' designation on the slide any longer. And they only say "smooth trigger". I hope this is the same trigger job offered on last years Pro 9mm. I'd like one of these with the 4" barrel.
Kentucky Cop
01-15-10, 23:13
I really think that Smith is trying to "punch" into a better market with the M&P Line. Once on the site, I put the item number for the TS into the search engine and it did say a 1/7 twist. At least they are offering more options for shooters. I think the line definitely just stepped up their game in an ATTEMPT to run with the big boys. With the .22 cal handgun, new editions to the 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 handguns, and the adjustments with the M&P 15 line, I think some will give a second look. :)
I have two. Love them. Ran one through 2 Magpul classes, about 5K rounds through it so far. Not a single issue weapon related.
I shoot wolf through it almost exclusively and it has only been cleaned twice.
I got the MOE version back in October. I paid too much for it but I've enjoyed the gun and it's been a lot of fun. I've tried 4 different kinds of mags in the S&W and all work fine (including the Magpul). So far I've shot Wolf, Golden Bear, Silver Bear, Brown Bear and some Remington through it and function has been 100%. I've only shot about 700 rnds so far. The gun shoots much better groups using 55gr ammo. 62gr gives me about a 2" bigger group. The trigger on the S&W is better than on my Bushmaster. Fit and finish seem pretty good.
I like it and would recomend it if the price is right.
One complaint....I screwed up when sending the Magazine paperwork in for the 5 mags. I left out the receipt and the company sent the paperwork back to me about 6 weeks (or so) later with a note saying that the paperwork had to be returned in 3 weeks. The problem is that the paperwork was dated in early November. I didn't get the notice back until late December (Dec. 21 postmark). I expect to be disastified about the magazine deal.
Kentucky Cop
01-16-10, 22:20
If you were referring to the 2010 New Products PDF, click here (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/2010_NewProducts_rev4.pdf).
I am really liking the new 13 inch Troy rail on the new M&P 15 TS. The PDF shows its a 1/9 twist but when you go to the actual smith and wesson site ( www.smith-wesson.com ) and punch in the model #811024 into their search engine it shows a 1/7 twist. I am really hoping that its tons cheaper than the $1700 dollars list price.
. . . I think some will give a second look. :)
I don't own a complete M&P15 but recommend them all the time. I do own a stripped lower, however, and will one day get that project completed.
I bought a MOE about 8-9 months ago at a CoW gun show in Phx, I probably over paid. I have been very happy with the rifle, I have only shot P-Mags out of it. After about 4 months of shooting it I started to feel as my support hand was cramped by the short length of the MOE hand guard. After thinking about what I wanted out of the rifle I purchased the TRX 13" in FDE. I am very happy with the feel of the TRX. I have unknowingly modified the new (2010) M&P 15. I don't really care for the sight picture that the magpul front sight creates, the sides of the front sight fold in around the front sight blade. I will trade the sight for some type of fixed front sight that is more traditional. I will try to post a pic, but my internet skills suck.http://<a href="http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/medic548/?action=view¤t=
FWIW,
I sent an upper back to S&W about six months ago. It came back with better feedramps than the one I sent, and the barrel was marked 1/7 and 5.56. It holds up fine with XM193, and I shoot some heavier rounds through it as well. Not a ton, though.
So, from my end, they're stepping up their product.
Just finished teaching a 40-hour patrol rifle operator class for my department, using the S&W rifles, and we had nary a problem. Our only issue was the old junk magazines we give to the students for the course, so as not to dent up their duty mags, but it gives the students practice time on transitions and tap-rack drills.
I've had my job-issued S&W rifle for about 2 1/2 years now, one their early models, and it shoots like a champ. Probably 3000 or so rounds through it and shoots fantastic; I honestly can't remember the last time I had a malfunction with it, if ever. Our rifles were bought completely stock, but our department has upgraded them over the years. Now we have fixed Troy rear sights, Troy drop-in 4 rail systems, and streamlight flashlights. We are looking into getting Aimpoints in the near future.
The operators love the Smith rifles and they have been carried now for two years with no complaints. Students burn about 1100 rounds during their basic operator course, and qualify twice a year with about 260 rounds or so per in-service, so if there was any issues, we would have found them.
I have no problems trusting my life and the lives of my fellow officers with these rifles! Two thumbs up!
GLOCKMASTER
01-17-10, 09:57
Just finished teaching a 40-hour patrol rifle operator class for my department, using the S&W rifles, and we had nary a problem. Our only issue was the old junk magazines we give to the students for the course, so as not to dent up their duty mags, but it gives the students practice time on transitions and tap-rack drills.
I've had my job-issued S&W rifle for about 2 1/2 years now, one their early models, and it shoots like a champ. Probably 3000 or so rounds through it and shoots fantastic; I honestly can't remember the last time I had a malfunction with it, if ever. Our rifles were bought completely stock, but our department has upgraded them over the years. Now we have fixed Troy rear sights, Troy drop-in 4 rail systems, and streamlight flashlights. We are looking into getting Aimpoints in the near future.
The operators love the Smith rifles and they have been carried now for two years with no complaints. Students burn about 1100 rounds during their basic operator course, and qualify twice a year with about 260 rounds or so per in-service, so if there was any issues, we would have found them.
I have no problems trusting my life and the lives of my fellow officers with these rifles! Two thumbs up!
So far that has been our experience with the S&W M&P-15's. We just ordered another 200 M&P-15's.
Any love or hate for those here? I have a good friend ask me about the after seeing a sale from CDNN.
Welllll, "love" is a strong word, but I've got a S&W VTAC that I like and trust. I got it at the height of the craziness last year. I had just sold a couple of OLD Bushmasters (No problems with them, but that's another thread {or 12}) for considerably more than I had paid for them new. One financed the purchase of a DDM4, and the other BM became a VTAC.
The VTAC has gone to the range with me and my grandson 4 or 5 times and has about 2500+ rounds through it. I have had no problems of any kind from it - and I really like the trigger and the tube. I'm lukewarm about the FS/comp - it's about as good as an A2.
My break in test was my usual 10 thirty-round mags as fast as I can shoot them. After I did that once, I let my grandson duplicate it next time out. As I said - no problems at all. Most of the ammo through the VTAC is Hornady steelcase.
Kentucky Cop
01-17-10, 17:28
JFreuler, may I ask what agency ordered 200 M&P's rifles. I saw a pic of you on another thread with the Troopers of North Carolina. Is that who we are talking about. That's a HUGE order. Also, which model did they order? Also, is it common for agencies that purchase that many rifles to engrave the agencies badge or name on the lowers? Thanks for your help as always.
GLOCKMASTER
01-17-10, 19:57
JFreuler, may I ask what agency ordered 200 M&P's rifles. I saw a pic of you on another thread with the Troopers of North Carolina. Is that who we are talking about. That's a HUGE order. Also, which model did they order? Also, is it common for agencies that purchase that many rifles to engrave the agencies badge or name on the lowers? Thanks for your help as always.
Yes it is the NC Highway Patrol. The first order was for 300 rifles with a follow up order of 200. It is common for agencies to have some type of agency symbol engraved on an agency weapon.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/DSC_2877.jpg
Kentucky Cop
03-13-10, 15:52
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=760612&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15702
Does anyone know when Smith is going to start cranking out the new M&P 15 TS with the Troy TRX rail? I have been waiting since they emerged at shot show. Gun shop keeps saying he is waiting for a response back from his Smith LE guy. Snore......!
(smoke coming from my back pocket due to the money burning a hole in it);)
Ky Cop
I have spoken to S&W customer service a few times in past couple of months. First I was told TS would be ready in March. But the latest quote is they will start shipping in May. Your guess is as good as mine
trunkmonkey
03-16-10, 22:39
http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=SW-311002
I bought my 1'st M&P15 when they first came out and never had a problem with it. That first run was made for them by Stag but now they make everything in house. I just purchased my 2'nd M&P15ps because I wanted to try a piston system AR. Smith & Wesson has jumped into the AR market in a big way and I think their build quality is second to none. That along with their excellent customer service make them a big player on the AR scene. After looking at several PS guns I chose the M&P because it felt the best. Most I looked at were front heavy but not the S&W which weighs 6.5 lbs. I just had an ArmaLite tactical 2 stage trigger installed and will put a Magpul CTR stock on it and be ready to go.
Kentucky Cop
03-17-10, 23:13
I have spoken to S&W customer service a few times in past couple of months. First I was told TS would be ready in March. But the latest quote is they will start shipping in May. Your guess is as good as mine
DJP, I am kinda bent about the whole deal. They market the product on their website, get me and everyone else wanting to buy one but nobody has a damn clue when they come out. Example- I called S&W customer service yesterday and the guy says "uh, um....what is the rifle called again"? "Do you have the SKU number"? I was like really? Anyways, he finally finds the TS in his computer and then says, "I don't know when those will be coming out, hold on". After being on hold for some time he comes back and says all he can tell me is some time during the summer they will be release (which is short for who the F knows). For shits and giggles, I called again today and another guy quickly knows what rifle I am asking about but has to put me on hold to find out when they will be selling. He comes back and says "should be out this month". I bet if I call tomorrow a guy will tell me they are already out. Any S&W LE reps in this forum???
Come on Smith, lets get it together! Why advertise a rifle and not have an idea when it will be available? :confused:
Ky Cop
I have the same question regarding the VTAC model. Saw the 2010 ShotShow video of the new version on the Viking website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl95D0VsjQ
Worth a little investigating, so I emailed back and forth with S&W customer sevice. After a few exchanges it was clear the guy on their end doesn't know about the existance of a new product, much less it's availability.
I sent him a copy of the YouTube video link, re-asked the question and haven't heard back since. All I'm looking for is do they know when it will be available and a ballpark cost.
Where is the customer service here? How about a little knowledge on the manufacturer's part? Maybe I'll look at Noveske...................
The video answers your questions about the availability. There's a lot of Troy on the gun that needs to be produced and shipped, as well as the JP trigger. Manufacturing and shipping dates get more convoluted when third parties are involved. On the S&W side of the house, the 1/8 fluted barrels might require some retooling and machining that isn't moving at full speed yet.
All those production issues (outsourced parts, raw materials, new machining) come from separate departments, the lead time is given to someone in charge who then knows when all the parts will be in, then the gun has to be made. Not all of this might be trickled down to CS reps, who might have just asked a guy in assembly when the guns will be ready, and got a response like, "when the JP triggers come in. April 27 from what I heard". They might not have the big picture. They could just be guessing. Or someone just didn't get the memo.
Would I fault them? Sure. But keep in mind that this will happen with a lot of companies in this industry, or in any industry. Push back dates happen.
Besides, is May really all that long to wait? Start buying ammo.
No May is not too long to wait, I didn't pick up on that date.................. just that it would be 'released shortly.' Thanks........
I just got May from an earlier post. But it could be later. I just like to realize that ship dates are never set in stone. Looks like a slick setup tho, and probably at a good price. That stock will be a topic for a whole new thread I fear.
Sent from my iPhone while my car's in the shop.
Thanks for the info Chameleox - hope all works out well with you car!! ;)
Kentucky Cop
03-18-10, 21:56
Keep us updated if anyone finds anything concrete.;)
Ky Cop
"We love our Cousins in Kentucky"
GO CATS!
My Magpul CTR stock showed up today and what a difference between it and the factory stock. The CTR is rock solid with no wiggle at all and came with a rubber butt pad installed. I'm going to try to get to the range this week, when I do I'll post a range report on this new piston system M&P.
Got to the range yesterday to wring out my new piston system M&P15. Went thru 3 30 magazines to check funtion which was perfect.
Mag 1, 30 rnds LC 55 grn 193 ball
Mag 2, 30 rnds Winchester 62 grn 855 ball
Mag 3, 30 rnds Winchester 55 grn Q3131
The recoil impulse with the piston system is a little different then with a DI gun, I find it to feel smoother. The Magpul CTR stock felt great and is a definate improvement over the factory stock. Next I zeroed first at 50 yards as this ACOG TA11 isn't really for long range engagement. After settling down here is a photo (2'nd photo) of a very satisfactory 20 rnd group. As you can see this carbine is accurate, this was shot with the Winchester Q3131. Moving out to 100 yds the best group was double the size of the 50 yrd group but still very acceptable accuracy (1'st photo). The reticle on my ACOG is a donut so I was more than pleased with this group.
The gun was 100% reliable with all ammunition and I went thru a total of 300 rnds. Cleaning the gun showed the biggest difference between this and a DI gun. The bolt and carrier was basically clean with no carbon what so ever. The gas piston itself is stripped from the front and shown very little carbon build up. So maintenance with a piston system AR is going to be much simpler than with a DI AR.
In closing I'm very impressed with this latest S&W offering, it is a very high quality AR. The addition of the ArmaLite two stage trigger aided shooting greatly and hopefully S&W will in the future offer a two stage trigger. The ACOG TA11 is a wonderful combat sight allowing for fast hits at greater range than with iron sights. Anyone considering a piston system AR would be well pleased with S&Ws two models.
PoconoChris
03-24-10, 17:11
Mag318,
Thanks for the report!
I was wondering how they were going to be. I bought a M&P 15or at the end of last year and I am having a fun time shooting it. I think I got the bug. I shot about 2k rounds through mine so far and I haven't had a problem yet. Also I am saving for a CTR stock because I don't like the wiggle either. I was thinking of building an upper for long range with maybe a piston system.
Kentucky Cop
04-06-10, 21:10
Anyone got an update on when the M&P 15 TS is going to be released? Last check was a crap shoot with this summer, to April, May, ....etc. (That was Smith's customer service who hadn't a clue the about the rifle.) :confused:
Just Curious if someone is in the "Know"!
Ky Cop
Here's the latest from S&W Customer Support
"Dave –they are telling us mid may
Thank you"
So I guess we keep waiting?
Kentucky Cop
04-08-10, 14:05
Here's the latest from S&W Customer Support
"Dave –they are telling us mid may
Thank you"
So I guess we keep waiting?
Too funny! I bet I could call and get a totally different answer. Oh well. Thanks for sharing. I wish there was a Smith rep that frequent the site like some of the other manufactures. ;)
Ky Cop
Is the TS a mid length or carbine?
Pathfinder Ops
04-09-10, 05:37
After doing a fair amount of research on this site and other locations I was convinced that dropping $800 (NIB) on an M&P15R was a good idea.
I put an ARMS#40L BUIS on it and am leaving it as a bare bones platform vs. my RRA with lots of bells and whistles.
I only bought it 3 days ago and have not yet taken it to the range.
I anticipate good things from it and will gladly post a range report for general consumption.
The reason I bought this primarily is that I am interested in using the 5.45 round and am just not interested in shooting an AK type platform.
Kentucky Cop
04-09-10, 14:15
Is the TS a mid length or carbine?
I believe its a middy.
Ky Cop
Kentucky Cop
05-05-10, 12:54
Anyone got an update on when the M&P 15 TS is going to be released? Last check was a crap shoot with this summer, to April, May, ....etc. (That was Smith's customer service who hadn't a clue the about the rifle.) :confused:
Just Curious if someone is in the "Know"!
Ky Cop
Just talked to them today. Now its late June! uggghhhh!:confused: On a side note, the CS guy never heard of the rifle and it took him several minutes to find it. I finally had to give him the model #811024.
Ky Cop
I was up to S&W retail store yesterday, they had a new MP15 on the shelf for sale, had all Troy pieces on it, sites, handguard.... etc. It was very niiiiice.. I want it. It's Mass compliant, not sure, but I think it's what guys have been talking about here and in the other thread. It's on the shelf, I plan on sneaking up there around lunch and checking it out a little closer.. although, I'm sure I drooled all over it last time... I''ll check the sticker price and part number...
Jack C
rifleman2000
05-07-10, 09:00
Got to the range yesterday to wring out my new piston system M&P15. Went thru 3 30 magazines to check funtion which was perfect.
Mag 1, 30 rnds LC 55 grn 193 ball
Mag 2, 30 rnds Winchester 62 grn 855 ball
Mag 3, 30 rnds Winchester 55 grn Q3131
The recoil impulse with the piston system is a little different then with a DI gun, I find it to feel smoother. The Magpul CTR stock felt great and is a definate improvement over the factory stock. Next I zeroed first at 50 yards as this ACOG TA11 isn't really for long range engagement. After settling down here is a photo (2'nd photo) of a very satisfactory 20 rnd group. As you can see this carbine is accurate, this was shot with the Winchester Q3131. Moving out to 100 yds the best group was double the size of the 50 yrd group but still very acceptable accuracy (1'st photo). The reticle on my ACOG is a donut so I was more than pleased with this group.
The gun was 100% reliable with all ammunition and I went thru a total of 300 rnds. Cleaning the gun showed the biggest difference between this and a DI gun. The bolt and carrier was basically clean with no carbon what so ever. The gas piston itself is stripped from the front and shown very little carbon build up. So maintenance with a piston system AR is going to be much simpler than with a DI AR.
In closing I'm very impressed with this latest S&W offering, it is a very high quality AR. The addition of the ArmaLite two stage trigger aided shooting greatly and hopefully S&W will in the future offer a two stage trigger. The ACOG TA11 is a wonderful combat sight allowing for fast hits at greater range than with iron sights. Anyone considering a piston system AR would be well pleased with S&Ws two models.
Did your zero change from 55 grain to 62 grain?
Just pokin around the S&W site, I think the 15 I'm lookin at is the 15-FT..
Jack
Any love or hate for those here? I have a good friend ask me about the after seeing a sale from CDNN.
I have a 15 and a 15T. Each has been 100% so far. Fit finish and attention to detail has been better than some other brands I've owned and used. (I don't want to start a flame here on any specific brand).
I've shot a considerable amount of Russian steel cased ammo through both during break in. The only issue I had was with 2 rounds of ammo. Nothing to do with the rifles at all.
With quality ammo, both carbines are 1 moa or better shooters.
Hope this helps your friend.
I have a M&P15T that I bought new last year (built in-house at S&W) and it has been 100% for ~2,000 to date. Very happy with it!
Kentucky Cop
05-10-10, 11:50
I NEED THIS!..........last month.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811024_large.jpg
Ky Cop
Kentucky Cop
07-14-10, 15:00
Just called smith and wesson CS,..........again. Asked when they project the 15TS to hit the stores?
"Well Bryan, we are going with the end of the month". I replied, "this has been going on for several months now". CS guy chuckled, then got him self together and replies, "just going by what they tell me". -oh well. It's a sign when the CS people can laugh with you. ;)
This problem would be solved if my department authorized us to carry BCM. Come on Grant, I am counting on ya!
Kentucky Cop
dennisuello
07-14-10, 15:05
I NEED THIS!..........last month.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811024_large.jpg
Ky Cop
I started with MOE edition, and now it looks almost the same as that one. Dumped the 1/9 twist carbine barrel for BCM middy and got 11" TRX Extreme rail.
AZ-Renegade
08-10-10, 20:42
I bought the standard M&P15 about four years ago when they still came with the M4 forend and the side sling mount. I liked it so much I picked up an M&P15T a year later when S&W was doing their "buy a rifle and get a Sigma for $99" deal.
Since they are both early models older Pmags do not seat very well. I took a small amount of material from the rear portion of my old mags with a dremel tool and they work fine now. Newer Pmags have no issues in either carbine.
I set up my 15T like an SPR with a Burris XTR-14. I have done a lot of 100 yard shooting with it and my best groups end up in the 1.5" range. With the XTR I can hit a man size steel silhouette consistently at 300 yards no problem, and shooting at cholla near the 400-500 yard range the rounds drop in right on target.
Both function reliably as much as I have shot them. I hope to put them through a carbine course someday and see how they do.
I have an FT version, and it is awesome. :D
christcorp
01-13-11, 14:44
I know I've resurrected a 4 month old thread, but I wanted to say that I purchased an M&P15OR at christmas and finally got a chance to try it out. I am quite impressed with it. I know some believe that if it's not 100% mil-spec like a colt, then I'm compromising, but I tend to disagree. Mil-Spec, or as close as can be considering that a true mil-spec would be an M-16 automatic, doesn't always mean necessary. Either way; my M&P15 shoots flawlessly. I've only had it out twice, with about 400 rounds through it. But so far, so good. Half the ammo was steel case tula, the other half was PMC bronze.
I have always liked and trusted S&W weapons. I know they had some production/quality/management problems some years back; but all reports and comments that I've read, indicate that they are definitely back at producing quality again. Especially since their M&P line of pistols and rifles started. There are literally hundreds of police departments who are using M&P pistols, and many reports and articles show many local and state police across the country are using the M&P15 rifles. So that gives me a lot of confidence in the M&P15 that I recently purchased. I don't believe that a "Different" spec M&P is being made for law enforcement, so I am OK with the S&W brand. I own quite a few S&W pistols, dating back to the 50's, and I've always been happy with them.
So, whether a couple of parts in the M&P15 are or aren't mil-spec, I'm OK with that. If federal agencies like the DEA can approve the M&P pistols for their agents, and law enforcement in nevada, nebraska, north carolina, and many others are OK with the M&P15 rifle series; then so am I. Even if their rifles were a full-auto version, I trust that the same quality is there. It doesn't bother me in the least that it's not 100% mil-spec.
I have to say that I liked the fact that it shot damn near any ammo that I threw at it. I'm picking up some new optics, so I'll be taking it out again this weekend. I'm finding that I don't have the time to take all my guns out. Some, I haven't shot in a few years. But I've always found time to shoot AR's and Saigas. They are just too much fun. And considering the price I got this M&P15OR for, "$649", I'm quite happy with it. It will serve me well no matter what use I find for it. Thanks for letting me give a biased, amateur, review of my new toy, instead of starting a new thread.
Failure2Stop
01-13-11, 15:36
If you are happy with your purchase, great.
We need people in the community more than I need to argue points that are unarguable to high volume shooters.
Some require personal experience to appreciate what seem to be nuances to many.
christcorp
01-13-11, 16:05
Well, I find this forum to be one of the most knowledgeable forums on the AR type platform. This is my 3rd AR, and with retiring after 21 years in the military, I definitely have spent some time shooting this platform. And I really like them. And it's nice to find a forum where the quality of the conversation goes beyond just aesthetics and accessories. It's nice to read all the technical posts from knowledgeable posters. Thanks for providing this forum.
Nice write-up, I love my MP, it's an awsome platform. Since I own like 6 AR's, of sevral different manufacturers, I think I like my S&W setup best. But then they are all set up differently for different situations.. Lately, been playing with lots of diff hand guns and a new Hi-Piont 9mm carbine.....now that is one fun, cheap gun... :D Probably won't be playing much with my AR's until spring. 2 feet of snow yesterday, winter has officially arrived now. With indoor ranges here, can only shoot pistol caliber, the AR MP 15-22 and the Hi point are gonna get workouts this winter... :)
Doc Safari
01-13-11, 17:05
I'll just say one thing about the S&W M&P. Just as I joined this forum I was about to order one, then I saw the Chart, and I was disappointed and surprised that it doesn't rank higher. I would have bet money it was nearly the equal of Colt before seeing its position on the Chart. I bought a Daniel Defense and a BCM instead and I'm perfectly happy and thankful to the members here that I went that route.
It may be a fine rifle, but I hope at some point S&W steps up to the plate and makes a weapon nearer the quality of Colt or the other brands at the good end of the chart, but I won't be buying one until they do.
Got my M&P 15 MOE a few weeks ago. I just switched to a Midwest Industries handguard. The has fired Wolf, PMC Bronze, Remington UMC, and Federal American Eagle just fine. Nothing wrong with a M&P, quality rifles.
An Undocumented Worker
01-13-11, 18:58
I have a M&P 15 Vtac I bought in 2008 and have put roughly 3,000 rounds through it so far. It has yet to cause me any trouble. M193, M855, .223, Silver Bear, Wolf, everything I have fed it, it ate with no problems. At around 2,000 rounds I put an H-buffer in it just to see what happens. Just smoothed out the cycling a little.
I have been happy with my S&W M&P 15 and my 15-22.
I am in the process of building another rifle and need to put together an upper, but am waiting for Daniel Defense to make thier 18" midlength barrels available with front sightbase already installed.
I bought an MP OR over a year ago. Probably over 2,000 flawless rounds. It's drunk with magpull goodies :D and an Eotech RD scope. A nice set up and smooth shooting rifle.
As it turns out, I plan to let it go. :( I plan to put it the exchange. Anyone interested, pm me. Thanks and happy shooting.
:)
I'll just say one thing about the S&W M&P. Just as I joined this forum I was about to order one, then I saw the Chart, and I was disappointed and surprised that it doesn't rank higher. I would have bet money it was nearly the equal of Colt before seeing its position on the Chart. I bought a Daniel Defense and a BCM instead and I'm perfectly happy and thankful to the members here that I went that route.
It may be a fine rifle, but I hope at some point S&W steps up to the plate and makes a weapon nearer the quality of Colt or the other brands at the good end of the chart, but I won't be buying one until they do.
Thank God for the chart..... ;) where is that chart..? I remember seeing it vaquely, but I'm glad I think I already had my M&P.. or I purchased one in spite of.. no regrets here.
christcorp
01-14-11, 12:42
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
or, as an actual spreadsheet;
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en#gid=0
One thing I want to comment on however, is that some people say that they WERE looking at the S&W M&P15 series of rifles, UNTIL THEY LOOKED AT "THE CHART". I find that really confusing. When I look at "The Chart", I don't see any real SIGNIFICANT issues with the S&W M&P compared to say the Colt 6920. The only differences are:
1. M&P has an AR15 bolt carrier style compared to the M16 style. (All but 4 manufacturers have the AR15 bolt carrier style. No big deal)
2. Hand guard shield on the S&W M&P is a single shield instead of double. (Sorry, but that means little to nothing to me, as far as something I should be concerned about).
3. The M&P has the carbine buffer instead of a Heavy Buffer. (It's a .223. I don't worry about "Felt Recoil". If I notice chambering/feeding problems, I'll consider replacing it. But until then; definitely not a big deal).
4. Ok; the M&P has 4140 Barrel Steel instead of Mil-Spec or 4150. (However, S&W has gone the extra step to chrome line their barrels in their M&P. So while it may detract a smidgen in accuracy, it provides a longer lasting and protected barrel. In other words, it's an acceptable trade off for me. Would 4150 and being mil-spec be better? Yes. Is it necessary? Not in my opinion or for my need)
5. Finally: The barrel is a 1:9 instead of a 1:7. (Sorry, but that is about the least important factor for me. The 1:9 is perfectly good for bullets up to 69 grains; and if you're not into competition long range shooting, it doesn't really matter. Especially in a 16" barrel)
This is not to say that mil-spec isn't "Better". It is. But it's a matter of do those 5 differences between the M&P and the Colt, amount to a significant difference in what you're going to use the weapon for. If you're into the long range competition, then it might be. So while some people say they were interested in the S&W M&P "UNTIL They looked at the chart", I was the opposite. The chart reassured me of the quality of the M&P. That there were only minor differences in it and the colt. Now; if the S&W M&P and the colt were only about $100 difference in price; I'd probably go the extra $100. However, it isn't. At least not where I can find/buy them. On average, the 6920 is around $1200-$1300. Now; if the M&P was NEVER on sale, and normally costs around $1100, it would be hard not to choose the colt. But the M&P is regularly going for around $800-$850 in many places. I got mine for $650. So, for basically "HALF" the price, it's a no brainer for me to get the M&P. Would I have paid the same $650 for an Olympic? Not. That's the normal price almost everywhere. But for a trustworthy company like S&W; yes.
So this isn't knocking ANY of the other higher priced Mil-Spec AR/M4 weapons. Nothing against them at all. And definitely, there are those because of their shooting habits or simply for the desire for pure military equality, want the 100% Mil-Spec rifle. (Well, as close to mil-spec as you can get for a semi-auto vs select fire). This isn't to dog any of those. Just that the M&P quality, and level of mil-spec compared to the colt, vs price, equals one hell of a deal. In my opinion.
Doc Safari
01-14-11, 12:51
christcorp, you make some good points. I looked back at my post and realized I had forgotten to mention that I had heard or read about S & W receivers cracking and that influenced my decision as well.
Other than that I admit to being a Chart Snob. :cool:
EDITED TO ADD: Can't find a link for the cracked receivers so it may have been my dealer making that claim. It did cause me to cancel an order though.
christcorp
01-14-11, 12:59
Hmmm; I've never heard of the S&W M&P rifles cracking. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I've never heard of it. If you have some links, I'd be really interested. Thanks... Mike.....
Christcorp.... thanks, very well put and makes more than a lot of sense. As for the cracking.. never heard of that one.. sounds like someone was doing some gunsmithing in the back yard.... but it's possible...:)
Doc Safari
01-14-11, 13:08
Hmmm; I've never heard of the S&W M&P rifles cracking. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I've never heard of it. If you have some links, I'd be really interested. Thanks... Mike.....
I wish I could remember where I got that info. It's been too many months. Sorry.
I seem to remember it was one of the gun forums, because I had asked my dealer for a price on one and then I heard or read about an early batch of them with receivers that cracked easily or something and I canceled my order.
That was when I seriously started digesting the Chart and decided to go with recommendations on BCM or DD from members here.
EDITED TO ADD: I can't find a link to where I heard about the receivers cracking so I withdraw that for now. It may have been my dealer making that claim. It did influence my decision to cancel my order for one at the time.
christcorp
01-14-11, 13:13
Let me reiterate that I am not in any way, shape, or form, saying that a 100% mil-spec rifle is a waste of money or an outdated standard with no practical advantages. On the contrary. A weapon like the Colt 6920 and it's mil-spec parts, are indeed the closest to the military made and used AR/M4 platform that you can buy. That means the closest tolerance and machining. And there are some people that really want this. Either for competition purposes or peace of mind. And I'm not saying they shouldn't buy such a rifle if that's what they want.
All rifles are "Mechanical". That means that eventually, ALL of them wear. There is none that will last indefinitely. There's also some that have issues during the first magazine of ammo going through them. But for me; I don't need to extra percent of accuracy that the mil-spec barrel provides. I personally don't believe that the ar-15 bolt compared to the m16 bolt is significantly going to increase the risk of bolt failure. And I don't believe the carbine buffer is compromising the feeding of ammo. So for me, my shooting habit, etc... the "Twice the price" of the colt to my M&P was not worth what I supposedly gained. "Mind you, I have never seen a brand new colt 6920 for $650. I have seen the M&P for that. If I found a colt for that price new, I definitely would have bought that one. And again, this is just my opinion based on my shooting habit, experience, and preferences. Definitely no problem with a person wanting the "Best" that their money can buy. You'd say that I was exactly the same if you saw my home theater, computer equipment, restoring cars, etc... Some people like an HP computer from Best-Buy. I "build" my own PC's with better everything. They both work; but different preferences for different people. And if the M&P is good enough for a large amount of State police, DEA, etc... all over the country; then I'm OK with it too.
do a search with this, " S&W M&P 15 receiver cracking" it's funny..
Doc Safari
01-14-11, 13:24
I Googled it too and I can't find a link. It may have been my dealer that steered me away from them. I'll have to ask him next time I see him, so I'll edit that last post and withdraw it for now. I distinctly remember that claim influenced my decision to cancel an order for one even though they were on sale at CDNN.
I Googled it too and I can't find a link. It may have been my dealer that steered me away from them. I'll have to ask him next time I see him, so I'll edit that last post and withdraw it for now. I distinctly remember that claim influenced my decision to cancel an order for one even though they were on sale at CDNN.
Itr's kewl Doc.... I just thought it was funny with some of the stuff that came back.... :)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
or, as an actual spreadsheet;
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en#gid=0
One thing I want to comment on however, is that some people say that they WERE looking at the S&W M&P15 series of rifles, UNTIL THEY LOOKED AT "THE CHART". I find that really confusing. When I look at "The Chart", I don't see any real SIGNIFICANT issues with the S&W M&P compared to say the Colt 6920. The only differences are:
1. M&P has an AR15 bolt carrier style compared to the M16 style. (All but 4 manufacturers have the AR15 bolt carrier style. No big deal)
2. Hand guard shield on the S&W M&P is a single shield instead of double. (Sorry, but that means little to nothing to me, as far as something I should be concerned about).
3. The M&P has the carbine buffer instead of a Heavy Buffer. (It's a .223. I don't worry about "Felt Recoil". If I notice chambering/feeding problems, I'll consider replacing it. But until then; definitely not a big deal).
4. Ok; the M&P has 4140 Barrel Steel instead of Mil-Spec or 4150. (However, S&W has gone the extra step to chrome line their barrels in their M&P. So while it may detract a smidgen in accuracy, it provides a longer lasting and protected barrel. In other words, it's an acceptable trade off for me. Would 4150 and being mil-spec be better? Yes. Is it necessary? Not in my opinion or for my need)
5. Finally: The barrel is a 1:9 instead of a 1:7. (Sorry, but that is about the least important factor for me. The 1:9 is perfectly good for bullets up to 69 grains; and if you're not into competition long range shooting, it doesn't really matter. Especially in a 16" barrel)
This is not to say that mil-spec isn't "Better". It is. But it's a matter of do those 5 differences between the M&P and the Colt, amount to a significant difference in what you're going to use the weapon for. If you're into the long range competition, then it might be. So while some people say they were interested in the S&W M&P "UNTIL They looked at the chart", I was the opposite. The chart reassured me of the quality of the M&P. That there were only minor differences in it and the colt. Now; if the S&W M&P and the colt were only about $100 difference in price; I'd probably go the extra $100. However, it isn't. At least not where I can find/buy them. On average, the 6920 is around $1200-$1300. Now; if the M&P was NEVER on sale, and normally costs around $1100, it would be hard not to choose the colt. But the M&P is regularly going for around $800-$850 in many places. I got mine for $650. So, for basically "HALF" the price, it's a no brainer for me to get the M&P. Would I have paid the same $650 for an Olympic? Not. That's the normal price almost everywhere. But for a trustworthy company like S&W; yes.
So this isn't knocking ANY of the other higher priced Mil-Spec AR/M4 weapons. Nothing against them at all. And definitely, there are those because of their shooting habits or simply for the desire for pure military equality, want the 100% Mil-Spec rifle. (Well, as close to mil-spec as you can get for a semi-auto vs select fire). This isn't to dog any of those. Just that the M&P quality, and level of mil-spec compared to the colt, vs price, equals one hell of a deal. In my opinion.
I see that you are still trying to justify your M&P purchase (carried over from the DPMS thread). ;)
The biggest difference between the M&P line of AR’s and say Colt, BCM, DD, etc is the fact that they are over gassed. This adds felt recoil, more carbon in your chamber/receiver and more wear/tear on your gun. Is that acceptable to you? Most likely so.
Everyone can find ways to justify their gun not following the TDP, but at the end of the day the fact remains that the gun FAILED to meet the BASIC reqs that that US GOVT set forth for a fighting weapon.
C4
Let me reiterate that I am not in any way, shape, or form, saying that a 100% mil-spec rifle is a waste of money or an outdated standard with no practical advantages. On the contrary. A weapon like the Colt 6920 and it's mil-spec parts, are indeed the closest to the military made and used AR/M4 platform that you can buy. That means the closest tolerance and machining. And there are some people that really want this. Either for competition purposes or peace of mind. And I'm not saying they shouldn't buy such a rifle if that's what they want.
All rifles are "Mechanical". That means that eventually, ALL of them wear. There is none that will last indefinitely. There's also some that have issues during the first magazine of ammo going through them. But for me; I don't need to extra percent of accuracy that the mil-spec barrel provides. I personally don't believe that the ar-15 bolt compared to the m16 bolt is significantly going to increase the risk of bolt failure. And I don't believe the carbine buffer is compromising the feeding of ammo. So for me, my shooting habit, etc... the "Twice the price" of the colt to my M&P was not worth what I supposedly gained. "Mind you, I have never seen a brand new colt 6920 for $650. I have seen the M&P for that. If I found a colt for that price new, I definitely would have bought that one. And again, this is just my opinion based on my shooting habit, experience, and preferences. Definitely no problem with a person wanting the "Best" that their money can buy. You'd say that I was exactly the same if you saw my home theater, computer equipment, restoring cars, etc... Some people like an HP computer from Best-Buy. I "build" my own PC's with better everything. They both work; but different preferences for different people. And if the M&P is good enough for a large amount of State police, DEA, etc... all over the country; then I'm OK with it too.
Much fail in this post.
Just as an FYI to you, most LE agencies know NOTHING about AR's and buy whatever is the "best deal." Never base your purchase of an AR based off what LE agency is running them.
C4
Doc Safari
01-14-11, 13:54
Itr's kewl Doc.... I just thought it was funny with some of the stuff that came back.... :)
Not to beat a dead horse but now you got me wondering. I had my dealer order one but it was too late in the day for him to call the distributor. Whatever I heard was bad enough that I called my dealer first thing the next day and canceled my order. That Smith was to be my first AR after a break of many many years. It took something to get me to cancel that order, especially since I could easily afford it from CDNN. The DD I bought instead actually strained my budget a bit.
Maybe I'll purchase a Smith and make it my range gun.
The_War_Wagon
01-14-11, 14:05
do a search with this, " S&W M&P 15 receiver cracking" it's funny..
I'll bite - Yay-hoOoOoOo didn't lead me to anything funny, & beer gOOgles is the electronic anti-Christ, so I never use them. What SHOULD I have seen?
christcorp
01-14-11, 14:16
Grant; I'm not trying to justify or rationalize my M&P. I was simply stating some differences, and for me, the differences were not significant or of importance. I CLEARLY stated that I am not putting down the "mil-spec" level of rifles, like the colt, or the individuals that buy them. Simply put; different requirements for different people. And just like I would never say that a person is wasting their money by spending more on a colt, bcm, etc... (I don't believe they are wasting their money; not for them). I expect the same respect in return whereby my opinion is that NOT EVERYONE needs to spend more money on some of those rifles, when an M&P will be more than reliable enough for them. "Mind you, this IS an M&P thread".
The problem is; some people don't know how to define the word "BETTER". What is "Better" for one person, may be insignificant to another. Now; if I was shown data or even a lot of posters saying that their M&P's were failing them; jamming; feeding issues; broken parts; etc... then I would be greatly concerned. But I haven't seen that. So, I'm not worried. But again, the word "Better" is what really is misleading. For some individuals, the factors that make a particular weapon "Better", may not be a factor that even concerns that individual. When I lived in Europe, I had a friend who harped on me that his Jaguar was "Better" than my Skoda. (My skoda basically did 0-60 in 2 days. However; we lived in Amsterdam and used the car mostly In-Town. Out of town, we took the train. So being we never really went above 35-40mph, did it really matter? My car lasted just as long as his did when we sold them and moved back to the USA. Mine cost about 20% of what his did. So, which was better? Matter of perspective.
That's all I'm saying here. Of course, if there are some people that believe you can't rely on an M&P to protect your life or similar, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I'd have to wait to see proof. But for the other M&P owners, if you like your M&P and it performs well for you, then you "Done Did Good". If you have one and it doesn't fit your needs because of the barrel, recoil, etc... Then buy a different gun.
If it warms up a tad this weekend, I'm actually thinking I'm going to the outdoor range and sighting my old Colt Sporter with a scope for a little coyote hunting and gonna run some rounds through my lowly M&P15-orc.. hope it runs ok.. I can check em for cleanliness when I'm done... :) Hope that Sporter meets mil-spec for Coyote hunting.. :haha:
I have 5 Colts,a Daniels Defense and even a Charlies Daily AR. My S&W is my shooter and all the others remain NIB.
Keeps the miles off all my others.
I'll bite - Yay-hoOoOoOo didn't lead me to anything funny, & beer gOOgles is the electronic anti-Christ, so I never use them. What SHOULD I have seen?
do it without the parantheses.. no cracked S&W receivers, "crack" of the ammo firing, COLT receiver cracked in half when dropping on the floor... stupid stuff like that.. everything cracked except the S&W... in fact, I think someone was on crack .... :cool:
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 15:22
Turbo, Do you actually have anything of value to contribute or do you like to just exercise your dick skinners?
Christcorp
I will reiterate what Grant has already posted. We are very happy that you made such a fine purchase. We hope it serves you well in the limited use and capacity it was designed. However let us not pat our backs and shower together thinking that the S&W is nothing more than a hobbyist standard of weapon. As far as LE is concerned, they are at the mercy of the bean counters and tax payers. However there is growing trend of intelligent proactive officers changing the minds of their superiors. That way we get these sub par weapons out of service. I say sub par because they aren't suitable for duty PERIOD!
I just assisted the local Chief of PD on a proposal to switch out the S&W and the god help me Kel-Tec carbines for 11.5 BCM offerings with QD suppressors. The S&W are to be sold probably for just a few bucks. Now if you know of any large PD/FED/State agencies using S&W, feel free to post that info, otherwise enjoy your lane hobbyist and stay out of mine.
FYI my dept issues Colts, only Colt and nothing but Colt period. But we are allowed if approved to use our own duty rifle. List allowed from is Colt/BCM/DD/KAC/LMT/Noveske. Yep, I co-wrote the policy. My pond, my rule.
Turbo, Do you actually have anything of value to contribute or do you like to just exercise your dick skinners?
Christcorp
I will reiterate what Grant has already posted. We are very happy that you made such a fine purchase. We hope it serves you well in the limited use and capacity it was designed. However let us not pat our backs and shower together thinking that the S&W is nothing more than a hobbyist standard of weapon. As far as LE is concerned, they are at the mercy of the bean counters and tax payers. However there is growing trend of intelligent proactive officers changing the minds of their superiors. That way we get these sub par weapons out of service. I say sub par because they aren't suitable for duty PERIOD!
I just assisted the local Chief of PD on a proposal to switch out the S&W and the god help me Kel-Tec carbines for 11.5 BCM offerings with QD suppressors. The S&W are to be sold probably for just a few bucks. Now if you know of any large PD/FED/State agencies using S&W, feel free to post that info, otherwise enjoy your lane hobbyist and stay out of mine.
FYI my dept issues Colts, only Colt and nothing but Colt period. But we are allowed if approved to use our own duty rifle. List allowed from is Colt/BCM/DD/KAC/LMT/Noveske. Yep, I co-wrote the policy. My pond, my rule.
DICK SKINNERS..... now we digress.... you're a funny guy, but, I must say, very SAD.. I'll leave it at that. You remind me of the guy with a small one.. talk big and hope no one knows... :thank_you2:
The problem is; some people don't know how to define the word "BETTER". What is "Better" for one person, may be insignificant to another. Now; if I was shown data or even a lot of posters saying that their M&P's were failing them; jamming; feeding issues; broken parts; etc... then I would be greatly concerned. But I haven't seen that. So, I'm not worried. But again, the word "Better" is what really is misleading. For some individuals, the factors that make a particular weapon "Better", may not be a factor that even concerns that individual. When I lived in Europe, I had a friend who harped on me that his Jaguar was "Better" than my Skoda. (My skoda basically did 0-60 in 2 days. However; we lived in Amsterdam and used the car mostly In-Town. Out of town, we took the train. So being we never really went above 35-40mph, did it really matter? My car lasted just as long as his did when we sold them and moved back to the USA. Mine cost about 20% of what his did. So, which was better? Matter of perspective.
Better is actually EASY to define (especially with the AR15). Since AR's are made for COMBAT, we measure them against the US GOVT STD (TDP). When they fail to meet that LOWEST of standards, then we deem them as subpar. It does NOT MATTER if your M&P last's ONE MILLION YEAR'S and a COLT only last 5yrs. The components used in your M&P are not equal to a mil-spec gun in any way.
That's all I'm saying here. Of course, if there are some people that believe you can't rely on an M&P to protect your life or similar, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I'd have to wait to see proof. But for the other M&P owners, if you like your M&P and it performs well for you, then you "Done Did Good". If you have one and it doesn't fit your needs because of the barrel, recoil, etc... Then buy a different gun.
We could care less what gun you buy and why. If it "works" for you, then that is great. When you start to compare your gun against a Colt and start to put down certain parts of the TDP as "not important" then you are stepping into an argument (whether you know it or not).
You are FAR better off just stating that you like your gun and that it does what you want then attempting to pick apart the TDP standards and or pointing at LE agency sales for justification.
C4
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 16:15
At least you understood the humor. Small? WTF you expect I am Irish and White:D
The Chart is so misunderstood.
Ok so the MP 15 has an AR-15 carrier and a 4140 1/9 twist barrel. Higher grain bullets(energy and effects) require more twist to be accurate. The 4140 barrel, while useful does not hold up as well to extreme events.
I bought mine for around 900 2 years ago
Now, I decide to upgrade the barrel and carrier? Daniel Defense barrels run from 180 to 385. BCM barrel stripped is 300. The Carrier is 150.
So I add 450 to the Smith. Thats 1350. Now add in a MOE stock and a 7 inch rail and I am well over the price of a Colt.
Thats the point of the Chart.
As for my MP15 ORC, 5000+ rounds no issues. Shooting 55 grains at paper.........
CaptainDooley
01-14-11, 16:46
I just assisted the local Chief of PD on a proposal to switch out the S&W and the god help me Kel-Tec carbines for 11.5 BCM offerings with QD suppressors. The S&W are to be sold probably for just a few bucks.
I'd take one for a few bucks... and sell it to fund a BCM build. LOL.
At least you understood the humor. Small? WTF you expect I am Irish and White:D
Got you beat...........Scottish, and white.:haha:
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 17:04
Dooley, I think they are selling them to the poor schmucks who work for the tribal police around here. It isn't like they will actually use them. They are what you call "window dressing" when it comes to any actual LE duties.
It was a good thread guys, thanks for all the info, especially Christy for puting it all in perspective. But I have to say, you guys all know I am partial to SW for several reasons.. I own two pre-ban Sporters, model 6600k's I believe, one brandy new in the original box I bought a year ago, was never shot, bought it then realized I couldn't shoot it. So I found another one with about 50 rounds through it, I shot that one after many rounds through my MP15... without a doubt and with my little experience, there was a distinct differance in every way that gun shot.... and it was all good. :cool: It was smooooooth for sure... not sure how else to discribe it. If I get out this weekend, I plan to shoot it... if I don't pick up my new SW 500mag 4" barrel... :thank_you2:
christcorp
01-14-11, 18:22
.... Now if you know of any large PD/FED/State agencies using S&W, feel free to post that info,.... .
Some links are combo pistol/rifle purchases.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nevada-dps-selects-smith--wesson-mp15-tactical-rifles-109862394.html
http://www.ammoland.com/2008/11/12/smith-and-wesson-fills-law-enforcement-orders-for-mp15-rifles/
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-201835851.html
http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/Smith-Wesson-MP-Pistols-Rifles-Detroit-Police_1266-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/351/956/Smith_Wesson_Fills_Three_Agency_Gun_Orders_for_MP_Firearms.html
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2009/05/04/milwaukee-pd-latest-to-switch-to-smith-and-wesson-mp40/
http://www.shootingwire.com/story/205862
http://blueheronticker.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/springfield-police-department-selects-smith-wesson-mp-pistol/
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 18:45
But I would hardly say that 12, LE agencies warrant an S&W takeover of the LE/FED market. By the way, did you not find any Fed. agency links where they are using S&W AR's. I remember you stating that influenced your decision. Point is LE usually don't have a say in their weapon purchases. If your issued a turd, you use it in spite of what you may want due to it might be all you are allowed to carry. But as a person not being forced to use a dept issued turd. Why would you not get something "Better".
Your argument is untenable and you will not be able to keep pace with me nor my fellow members who actually know and use our tools. You should probably just call it a day and move on.
christcorp
01-14-11, 21:24
But I would hardly say that 12, LE agencies warrant an S&W takeover of the LE/FED market. By the way, did you not find any Fed. agency links where they are using S&W AR's. I remember you stating that influenced your decision. Point is LE usually don't have a say in their weapon purchases. If your issued a turd, you use it in spite of what you may want due to it might be all you are allowed to carry. But as a person not being forced to use a dept issued turd. Why would you not get something "Better".
Your argument is untenable and you will not be able to keep pace with me nor my fellow members who actually know and use our tools. You should probably just call it a day and move on.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/125764-smith-amp-wesson-holding-corporation-q3-2009-earnings-call-transcript
......Our M&P tactical rifles continue to gain popularity both with law enforcement and with consumers. To date, over 213 domestic law enforcement agencies have either selected or approved for duty our M&P 15 tactical rifles.......
I think that's a few more than 12. And that was a year and a half ago. I wonder how many more since then. And FWIW: S&W did just win, in September 2010, a Federal Weapons contract. Initiated by the ATF, but any federal agency is authorized to buy from that contract. So now that a contract has been awarded, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more sales.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 21:31
You actually expect us to believe that. Of course a manufacturer who unloads numerous dollars in advertising is going to tout their product is the best, or used by many "agencies".
****ing Bushmaster and DPMS have claimed at one point to be the weapon of choice by our Armed Services. You really should just stop. Admit your claims were wrong and move on.
What it will always boil down to is...Does S&W meet the minimum standards of the TDP. NO. Period. Class is out. Bye bye!
christcorp
01-14-11, 21:49
You actually expect us to believe that. Of course a manufacturer who unloads numerous dollars in advertising is going to tout their product is the best, or used by many "agencies".
****ing Bushmaster and DPMS have claimed at one point to be the weapon of choice by our Armed Services. You really should just stop. Admit your claims were wrong and move on.
No, I will move on. But not because my claims are wrong. But because you are obviously a chart snob who is quite arrogant. I'll continue to read/lurk some of the threads here. "there are some knowledgeable people and perspectives". But I can already tell, that even if I listed 50 more LE agencies using the M&P15 series, you'd pretend it didn't exist. I know your type. I see people like you at the gun shows and gun shops. Not that you're wrong about what you like; only that you think everyone else is wrong. So, I'm done with this thread. I assumed that because it was an M&P15 thread, that it would be mainly M&P owners, with some 3rd party input. Unfortunately, it looks like there are some here that want to have a say in all threads. Enjoy yourself. Don't let your ego hurt you. I'm 50 years old and have been around weapons a while. I don't need your kind of attitude. So, I will do as you asked and "Move On". Maybe I'll wait for a thread that isn't worthy of your presence.
:dance3::dance3::dance3:
You actually expect us to believe that. Of course a manufacturer who unloads numerous dollars in advertising is going to tout their product is the best, or used by many "agencies".
****ing Bushmaster and DPMS have claimed at one point to be the weapon of choice by our Armed Services. You really should just stop. Admit your claims were wrong and move on.
What it will always boil down to is...Does S&W meet the minimum standards of the TDP. NO. Period. Class is out. Bye bye!
ya know ... I was trying to be all grown up... . You haven't won or proven anything. Your mil-spec is not the Holy Grail and YOU should walk away from this, in my book you aren't even in the ball park with your point of view.. you haven't backed up shit... how's that, now go crawl under your rock. Christy was pretty cordial as was I , and YOU CAN'T DEAL WITH THE TRUTH... where did I hear that line before.... oh ya Jack said it!!!! Thanks again Christy, you have backed up your posts.. I'll have to call up my bud that works at Colt, quite a good position I might add, not to mention, somewhat of an authority on this subject..... but he just left for the Shot Show... where I am sure Smith will be trying to sell their Turds as well... :dance3::dance3::dance3:
No, I will move on. But not because my claims are wrong. But because you are obviously a chart snob who is quite arrogant. I'll continue to read/lurk some of the threads here. "there are some knowledgeable people and perspectives". But I can already tell, that even if I listed 50 more LE agencies using the M&P15 series, you'd pretend it didn't exist. I know your type. I see people like you at the gun shows and gun shops. Not that you're wrong about what you like; only that you think everyone else is wrong. So, I'm done with this thread. I assumed that because it was an M&P15 thread, that it would be mainly M&P owners, with some 3rd party input. Unfortunately, it looks like there are some here that want to have a say in all threads. Enjoy yourself. Don't let your ego hurt you. I'm 50 years old and have been around weapons a while. I don't need your kind of attitude. So, I will do as you asked and "Move On". Maybe I'll wait for a thread that isn't worthy of your presence.
Thanks again... wishin I could have stuck with the nice act.... and with ya, I'm heading back to http://smith-wessonforum.com/forum.php
I see that you are still trying to justify your M&P purchase (carried over from the DPMS thread). ;)
The biggest difference between the M&P line of AR’s and say Colt, BCM, DD, etc is the fact that they are over gassed. This adds felt recoil, more carbon in your chamber/receiver and more wear/tear on your gun. Is that acceptable to you? Most likely so.
Everyone can find ways to justify their gun not following the TDP, but at the end of the day the fact remains that the gun FAILED to meet the BASIC reqs that that US GOVT set forth for a fighting weapon.
C4
Over Gassed......................can you prove that ?? I can find nowhere on the "CHART" that gives the specs. for the gas hole size in each of the different brands barrels. After all,....................the "CHART" is what counts around here................right?
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 22:13
Clearly you have no clue about me so don't act as if you do sir. Chart snob, no just someone who can actually read and understand what it means without emotion. FYI, I don't do gun shows or gun shops. But I have used firearms in a few different uniforms in my life. Cheers, and enjoy the knowledge base, just don't try to make lead into gold Davinci.
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 22:15
There is zero need for your lack of respect. I would ask for an apology but I know only real men are able to apologize when wrong.
NEXT!
There is zero need for your lack of respect. I would ask for an apology but I know only real men are able to apologize when wrong.
NEXT!
HAHA. I just stumbled upon this thread and just want to say one thing. Love & peace. :D Sorry had to do it.
The snippy attitudes, condescension, and ad hominem are not exactly conducive to a serious discussion on the matter. :rolleyes:
These last couple of pages of posts are just shameful. What the hell is wrong with you people? Dick jokes? Really?
I think it's time to stick a fork in this thread.
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 23:13
I am exposed for having the comprehension of actually understanding what is required of a duty and hard use weapon. Cheers, and yes we are done here.
I thought threads like these only existed among 1911 owners. It proves that gun owners have type A personalities.
I'm new to AR15 rifles as I've been mostly a pistol person all my life, mostly 1911s. I've own several .22lr rifles but nothing of higher caliber.
I'll admit that I'm thankful for the chart. All of the information is overwhelming to someone who isn't familiar with the weapon. It's because of the chart that I purchased a SW M&P15. I didn't want a top of the line AR for my first rifle but didn't want something that is completely considered unreliable.
For now, I'm happy with my purchase as it will fit my needs while I learn how to use, care, and maintain the weapon. I plan to eventually upgrade to a higher end AR, which at that time, I'll once again reference the chart.
jklaughrey
01-14-11, 23:39
Very insightful. Run it like you hate it. Learn the platform, attend some classes. Your post is how a few others should have stated their purchase. The chart when used as intended is a useful tool, rather than a snob, mine is better than yours chart. If more people such as yourself would read the data rather than just a ranking. There might be much less bravado from new AR users. Cheers and good luck.
Very insightful. Run it like you hate it. Learn the platform, attend some classes. Your post is how a few others should have stated their purchase. The chart when used as intended is a useful tool, rather than a snob, mine is better than yours chart. If more people such as yourself would read the data rather than just a ranking. There might be much less bravado from new AR users. Cheers and good luck.
Thanks, I plan to run it through to hell and back. Hopefully, something will break so I can replace it. I'm ove the belief that everyone should be able to fix their own weapons. It will be hard to find a smith when WWIII breaks out.
Start the countdown till this being locked.... given the way the DPMS thread went Christcorp, could you really see this thread that you bumped going any other way? For me it's easy to understand, the attitude here is milspec/tdp is the baseline of the people that either take their weapons into harms way or want to use that standard as a basis for heavy use or SD/HD situations.
Personally, I like to buy the most quality I can for my dollar. I found this site the day after I ordered my CMMG lower and was considering one of their uppers. After reading the knowledge base here, I decided to go with BCM as the price was comparable. When all was said and done with my research, the Smartgunner deal for a Daniels Defense upper was too hard to resist for about $150 more than I was going to spend on the BCM of my choice. These choices worked for me and I am happy for the advice given here by knowledgeable folk. If you are happy with your choice, that's great. Just don't try justifying to people that go by a different standard and be surprised when they don't agree.
That's the way I see it anyway...
Cheers.
Been Lurking on this Site for Quite awhile now and I gotta say, My God I am so sick of seeing "your weapon sucks" comments. I have been in the U.S. Army for 14 years now and currently sitting at a dusty ass desk reading this nonsense. I have used many, many weapons in my time serving, currently issued a colt/Acog combo, Now the colt is a great Weapon, no doubt about that, Now at home I currently own an M&P15 MOE, LOVE IT!! I have no issues with either firearm at all. But I came to this site Mainly to get ideas from other people because all that I really know about M4's is what the Army teaches me. Now, i have read that this site caters to the higher tier firearms, Roger, Got it! but the name of the site is not "WWW.DON'T COME HERE UNLESS YOU OWN A COLT.COM" I'm sick of it.....NEXT SLIDE PLEASE!! :D:D
richdkim77
01-15-11, 00:30
...some have it, others don't. I hate coming in here looking to read some good posts, only to see a bunch of new members insult our senior members and our intelligence.
I have a soft spot for my old S&W 6906, but let's face it, S&W has always made mediocre stuff. They still make mediocre stuff. If what you have works for you, great, go shoot it, but don't try to convince me that your Hyundai Genesis is as "good" as my BMW. It aint.
The way I see it is that people get way to worked up and condescending around here.
Been Lurking on this Site for Quite awhile now and I gotta say, My God I am so sick of seeing "your weapon sucks" comments. I have been in the U.S. Army for 14 years now and currently sitting at a dusty ass desk reading this nonsense. I have used many, many weapons in my time serving, currently issued a colt/Acog combo, Now the colt is a great Weapon, no doubt about that, Now at home I currently own an M&P15 MOE, LOVE IT!! I have no issues with either firearm at all. But I came to this site Mainly to get ideas from other people because all that I really know about M4's is what the Army teaches me. Now, i have read that this site caters to the higher tier firearms, Roger, Got it! but the name of the site is not "WWW.DON'T COME HERE UNLESS YOU OWN A COLT.COM" I'm sick of it.....NEXT SLIDE PLEASE!! :D:D
Outside of some specific users, I don't think the overall tone of this site at all is "Colt or nothing." I also don't think anyone who's opinion is worth listening to has stated that owners of the M&P won't be happy with their purchases and/or won't experience varying levels of success with them.
The debate between rifles by companies like BCM, LMT, Colt, KAC vs. Bushmaster, S&W, DPMS, RRA, etc. isn't about whether a given rifle will make it through range sessions without jams or not, or if they will exploded before making it through their first few magazines. It's much more technical than that. Also, there seems to be some strange misconception that "high-end" AR15's are significantly more expensive than "low-end" models. Companies like BCM and DD have shown us that this isn't necessarily the case.
Many of the experienced users weighing-in routinely run their guns hard, and under less than ideal conditions. Many also routinely attend and teach classes; a fact that allows them to see a pretty decent sized sample of rifles from various makes. Many of these types are classes are the sort that will push rifles closer to their failure point than any leisurely plinking session will. A tough carbine course will reveal weaknesses in a design that may not be apparent initially.
Every human being is subject to some level of bias, true, however all opinions don't carry an equal amount of weight. Those new to the civilian AR15 market would do well to learn from those more knowledgeable than themselves. Those well-seasoned would do well to be a little less flippant. Both sides could use some patience. In any case, there are still a LOT of knowledgeable people on this site that are more than willing to help, assuming those asking are willing to listen.
p.s. - None of the previous is meant to be a slight against S&W's rifle offerings.
The way I see it is that people get way to worked up and condescending around here. You could argue the fact that to be true "Mil Spec" you could only include M16's. AR15's have non "Mil Spec" internal parts because they are semi auto, not the same parts as those on true "Mil Spec" M16's. So...............I guess no AR15's are true "Mil Spec" anyway, including those at the top of "The Chart".
Have you looked at the rollmark on Colt M16s? Says "AR-15" clear as day! :D
Anyway, the point about milspec in ARs most of us can buy isn't full auto or burst - it's that basic things important to the military for reliable operation are also done to the AR we buy. Much of this is in the upper receiver and if you dropped a BCM, Daniel Defense, etc. upper on an M4 auto lower you would expect no problems from that upper since it's truly milspec. Lesser quality uppers likely would have problems functioning well on an auto lower. Again, we aren't likely to do something like that but it does prove milspec means something, a tougher, more durable AR built out of better components.
THE CHART*Heavenly Choir* isn't about Ten-HUT!! milspec. It's about comparing the specifications of each listed maker as they compare to milspec.
The Chart is nothing more than a baseline reference. It is up to each person to decide to accept the information as listed or to spend time investigating each specification and decide how each one apply to their needs.
Deviations from key specifications means that the performance of the alternative must meet or exceed that of the current specifications as the current specifications are known to produce reliable rifles.
There are those who passionately defend The Chart because they know for over 40 years the specifications it lists are written with the blood of those who have served our nation
The reason i love my M&P is..................ITS MINE! :cool:
The rifle has given me ZERO problems, of course I dont run into the dirt everyday (I get enough of that shit throughout the day with issued stuff) But it suits my needs very well.
You have already received one warning. Debate is fine, but when you really don't have a clue then you should sit back and learn.
In case you didn't know. When departments make a selection it is based on a variety of things. Performance, needs, etc.. However, as many will tell you the overall deciding factor is COST. This is especially true today with many states and locales feeling the pinch due to the economy. Additonally most administrators and bean counters are IGNORANT when it comes to weapons.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/125764-smith-amp-wesson-holding-corporation-q3-2009-earnings-call-transcript
......Our M&P tactical rifles continue to gain popularity both with law enforcement and with consumers. To date, over 213 domestic law enforcement agencies have either selected or approved for duty our M&P 15 tactical rifles.......
I think that's a few more than 12. And that was a year and a half ago. I wonder how many more since then. And FWIW: S&W did just win, in September 2010, a Federal Weapons contract. Initiated by the ATF, but any federal agency is authorized to buy from that contract. So now that a contract has been awarded, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more sales.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987
To the OP. I have an M & P 15 OR with a Mueller Dot sight. I like the rifle. It is compact and light weight. Great walkin around rifle. I hooked it up with Federal Fusion ammo for deer last season and have a years supply of venison. I have a few pesky varmints on the place and I think the M & P is the right tool for the job.
As for th M&P being overgassed, yes it is. I replaced my buffer witth a H-3 and it will still fire the weakest rounds flawlessly. When I fired the weapon with a standard buffer I could feel the recoil spring continue to vibrate for a second or two. All told im still happy with the weapon, just wonder why Smith designed it to be so overgassed.
This thread is a Smith and Wesson M&P thread. Why not let the people that own them discuss what they have, even if they are wrong or right. Seems that some always have to say or have the final word. Thats the problem around here.
I don't see any problem that this site tries to prevent misinformation. Besides there's plenty enough of that at TOS.
The S&W isn't a bad AR and I don't think anyone here said it is but fanboism and unjustified praise is discouraged.
I don't see any problem that this site tries to prevent misinformation. Besides there's plenty enough of that at TOS.
The S&W isn't a bad AR and I don't think anyone here said it is but fanboism and unjustified praise is discouraged.
Can you clarify your statement for me please, not sure exactly what you are referring to and about.. thanks,
Can you clarify your statement for me please, not sure exactly what you are referring to and about.. thanks,
No doubt you've seen uninformative/misinformative threads here die a quick death. Some people think the moderation is heavy handed for that but look at the crap threads on other sites that go on and on for days and weeks. Which do you think is better?
AZ-Renegade
01-15-11, 11:19
I own two M&P15s. One now has a complete BCM upper. I enjoy both of these carbines and have no plans to sell them in the near future and I even keep one as a house carbine....
BUT, were I to purchase a weapon for use at work (which we are not allowed) it would be a Colt. I have seen the use and abuse that Colt carbines can take while the S&W's long term durability remains uncertain to me.
Kentucky Cop
01-15-11, 12:18
If your curious about S&W's long term durability, check with Jfreuler. He is a member on here. They issued over 600 rifles to the North Carolina Highway Patrol. I'd say they have been put thru hell by now...
He speaks highly of them.
KC
GLOCKMASTER
01-15-11, 12:56
Over the last three years we have purchased 720 S&W 14.5" M&P-15 rifles. So far we have not had any issues with these rifles. I also know of several other large state agencies across the US that have purchased large quantities of M&P-15's and they are not having any problems with their rifles. There are also several large local agencies that have made large purchases of these rifles and they are not have any issues with the rifles.
Is cost a deciding factor, sure but you have to know what your budget limitations are per rifle and know how to write bid specifications based on the results of a legitimate test and evaluation process. A lot departments do not have the luxury of having a full time armory/firearms training staff that can take the time to do this.
IMHO based on my experience with the number of M&P-15 rifles that I have handled, I would say that you made a good choice.
Let me clarify that I am not saying that S&W is crappy. And I respect JFreuler's opinion of the platform especially since he sees quite a few of them on his watch.
But, that doesn't make them the cats' ass either.
GLOCKMASTER
01-15-11, 14:02
Let me clarify that I am not saying that S&W is crappy. And I respect JFreuler's opinion of the platform especially since he sees quite a few of them on his watch.
But, that doesn't make them the cats' ass either.
I wouldn't say they are the cat's ass either but there are only a very few things in life I would consider the cat's ass and rifles are not one of them. I say this because I have seen "top tier" rifles like Noveske's, Colts and others have issues brand new out of the box. They all can have issues regardless of what manufacturing processes factories are suppose to follow.
That is why I put no one manufacturer on a pedestal as I take all of them with a grain of salt.
Over Gassed......................can you prove that ?? I can find nowhere on the "CHART" that gives the specs. for the gas hole size in each of the different brands barrels. After all,....................the "CHART" is what counts around here................right?
Yes, very easily. Remove the FSB or GB and MEASURE THE GP SIZE.
Right, you are never going to find the GP size listed on the chart. Why? Because Rob would have to remove the FSB of just about every barrel made and then measure them.
C4
Been Lurking on this Site for Quite awhile now and I gotta say, My God I am so sick of seeing "your weapon sucks" comments. I have been in the U.S. Army for 14 years now and currently sitting at a dusty ass desk reading this nonsense. I have used many, many weapons in my time serving, currently issued a colt/Acog combo, Now the colt is a great Weapon, no doubt about that, Now at home I currently own an M&P15 MOE, LOVE IT!! I have no issues with either firearm at all. But I came to this site Mainly to get ideas from other people because all that I really know about M4's is what the Army teaches me. Now, i have read that this site caters to the higher tier firearms, Roger, Got it! but the name of the site is not "WWW.DON'T COME HERE UNLESS YOU OWN A COLT.COM" I'm sick of it.....NEXT SLIDE PLEASE!! :D:D
I don't think you will find anyone that will tell you that your M&P "Sucks." In fact, I really the like the MOE M&P. Why? Because I had a hand in its design. :D
Where the butthurt happens is when people attempt to reason out the TDP reqs.
C4
As for th M&P being overgassed, yes it is. I replaced my buffer witth a H-3 and it will still fire the weakest rounds flawlessly. When I fired the weapon with a standard buffer I could feel the recoil spring continue to vibrate for a second or two. All told im still happy with the weapon, just wonder why Smith designed it to be so overgassed.
S&W went with a larger than spec GP size because most people that buy their guns shoot the cheapest (read low pressured) ammo than can find. This type of ammo (Wolf, Tula, etc) will typically cause short stroking.
So to avoid all the angry CS calls they would get about this, they over gas the guns.
S&W isn't alone in this (BTW), most EVERY MANUFACTURER does this. Short list would include such companies as RRA, BM, DPMS, Oly, etc, etc.
C4
My MP15 has done well for me, I swapped for an H2 buffer last week before I ran 650 rounds through it, and I has continued to fuction flawlessly. No probs of any kind on mine.
Over the last three years we have purchased 720 S&W 14.5" M&P-15 rifles. So far we have not had any issues with these rifles. I also know of several other large state agencies across the US that have purchased large quantities of M&P-15's and they are not having any problems with their rifles. There are also several large local agencies that have made large purchases of these rifles and they are not have any issues with the rifles.
Is cost a deciding factor, sure but you have to know what your budget limitations are per rifle and know how to write bid specifications based on the results of a legitimate test and evaluation process. A lot departments do not have the luxury of having a full time armory/firearms training staff that can take the time to do this.
IMHO based on my experience with the number of M&P-15 rifles that I have handled, I would say that you made a good choice.
Jeff is right about THERE M&P AR's. They have a more Mil-Spec gun and has the correct GP size. This is something that S&W will do on specific guns (generally NFA models) and or by special order.
The NC Patrol guns are more to "spec" than what you will find at your local big box store.
C4
I wouldn't say they are the cat's ass either but there are only a very few things in life I would consider the cat's ass and rifles are not one of them. I say this because I have seen "top tier" rifles like Noveske's, Colts and others have issues brand new out of the box. They all can have issues regardless of what manufacturing processes factories are suppose to follow.
That is why I put no one manufacturer on a pedestal as I take all of them with a grain of salt.
Again correct. All AR manufacturers put out lemons. All of them!
I personally would take a S&W AR over the MAJORITY of other brands.
Another thing that is interesting about S&W's AR's is that many of the components in the guns are now made at S&W. Besides Colt and FN, I would say that S&W makes the most components in house and the list is growing. Within the next year S&W might make EVERYTHING (less springs and detents) in house.
This is a very cool fact and clearly establishes them above their competitors (BM/RRA/Oly/Armalite/DPMS/ETC).
C4
The Guinea
01-16-11, 07:51
I cant get the link to copy but check out Smith & Wesson's site (new for 2010). They just came out with a few new versions of the popular M&P15 line. One in particular has the Troy TRX Extreme rail and the rest of the rifle is decked out with what appears to be the usual MOE grip and stock along with MBUS's. Smith's site is showing that it comes in a 1/7 rifle twist too. It seems they have been paying attention to the active shooters. Very nice to say the least.....
PS- I found this in the handgun section of our site. CHEERS!:D
The model you are referring to is the M&P15TS. I have one and I love it.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u286/guinea72/DSC03353.jpg
The Guinea
PatrolRifleGroup
01-16-11, 08:03
The model you are referring to is the M&P15TS. I have one and I love it.
The Guinea
As a patrol rifle instructor, I see a wide range of guns come through, and have been impressed with the S&W thus far. I have yet to see a TS model, but several guys have them on order for our spring certification. Can you confirm that it has a chrome BCG?
Nevada DPS Selects Smith & Wesson M&P15 Tactical Rifles
Nebraska State Patrol also Converts to M&P Rifles SPRINGFIELD, Mass., Nov. 22, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ --
Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (Nasdaq: SWHC), parent company of Smith & Wesson Corp., the legendary 158-year old company in the global business of safety, security, protection and sport, announced today the Nevada Department of Public Safety (DPS) has chosen to equip its officers with new patrol rifles from Smith & Wesson. The Nevada DPS has received 500 M&P15X tactical rifles to complete the agency's full conversion to the new Smith & Wesson firearms. Nevada DPS joins a number of law enforcement agencies that have converted to Smith & Wesson tactical rifles, including the Nebraska State Patrol, which also recently selected duty rifles from the Company's M&P Series.
Nevada DPS
During the department's selection process for a new patrol rifle, the Nevada DPS made a decision to change from the individual authorized carry program to a single operating system and platform for all of its officers. The Nevada DPS tested several manufacturers' rifles during the evaluation period and ultimately selected the Smith & Wesson M&P15X tactical rifle. Officials indicated that the M&P15X was standard with several of their preferred features including a quad-rail forend for multiple accessory attachment points, a folding battle sight and a gas operated system.
Along with the 500 M&P15X rifles, Smith & Wesson provided the Nevada DPS with a training and armorers course package. As the department continues its full conversion over to the new Smith & Wesson rifles, officers will complete a certification course before being issued the new patrol rifle.
Nebraska State Patrol
After an extensive testing and evaluation period that involved eight different firearm manufacturers and 17 different submissions, the Nebraska State Patrol decided to equip its officers with M&P15 tactical rifles. During the review period, the Nebraska State Patrol acknowledged the M&P15 rifle for its accuracy, high quality components, and ability to operate reliably throughout frequent firing. The department also noted that the semi-automatic rifle was fully supported with training and attentive customer service from Smith & Wesson.
Smith & Wesson recently completed shipments of 475 M&P15 rifles to the Nebraska State Patrol. Officers have completed certification courses and the M&P15 rifle is currently in service.
"The decision by both the Nevada DPS and the Nebraska State Patrol to convert to our M&P15 rifles continues to reinforce the positive reputation that these firearms have earned with police forces throughout the United States," said Leland Nichols, Vice President of Global Sales for Smith & Wesson. "Today, we offer over 16 variants of the M&P15 rifle, each designed with a specific set of features needed to address different military and law enforcement requirements. Much like the success that the M&P pistol has achieved, the M&P Rifle Series is clearly winning the confidence of law enforcement officers."
http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1499171&highlight=
As a patrol rifle instructor, I see a wide range of guns come through, and have been impressed with the S&W thus far. I have yet to see a TS model, but several guys have them on order for our spring certification. Can you confirm that it has a chrome BCG?
Chromed BCG or chrome lined Bolt Carrier?
C4
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 13:56
Can you confirm that the contract S&W offerings and purchases by those 2 agencies are the same identical weapon sold to non government contract? Meaning if you bought one off the shelf at your local "bubba" store it would be exactly th same as the one carried by Nevada DPS or Nebraska SP?
I would bet that those weapons sold on contract were done so with specific modifications or offerings that the regular S&W MP15 being touted on this site don't have.
But if you have that info, rather than just a biased press release by S&W, which by the way is not IMO reliable or accurate. Than please feel free to post said actual data and I will offer an apology. Until then any claims made by S&W about weapons sold to agencies on contract are not the same being sold to the private gun owner.
For what it's worth, Chicago PD's issued rifles are stock M&P15s. The last guy who I talked to that was part of our carbine program said there is nothing different between the city's rifle and mine (except I bought a M&P15 MOE).
I know mine is treated better and in better shape though. :) I feel sad every time I inspect the carbines from our radio room.
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 14:50
That sucks they are cast aside and uncared for, like lepers.
Can you confirm that the contract S&W offerings and purchases by those 2 agencies are the same identical weapon sold to non government contract? Meaning if you bought one off the shelf at your local "bubba" store it would be exactly th same as the one carried by Nevada DPS or Nebraska SP?
I would bet that those weapons sold on contract were done so with specific modifications or offerings that the regular S&W MP15 being touted on this site don't have.
But if you have that info, rather than just a biased press release by S&W, which by the way is not IMO reliable or accurate. Than please feel free to post said actual data and I will offer an apology. Until then any claims made by S&W about weapons sold to agencies on contract are not the same being sold to the private gun owner.
That is a spot on observation. This is like saying that the Crown Victoria must be an awesome car because law enforcement uses them as their patrol cars. Meanwhile the LE Crown Victoria has a shitload of modifications done to it to make it fast and more agile.
That is a spot on observation. This is like saying that the Crown Victoria must be an awesome car because law enforcement uses them as their patrol cars. Meanwhile the LE Crown Victoria has a shitload of modifications done to it to make it fast and more agile.
Right.
If I followed what LE did around me, I would belive the following:
1. The Serpa is a good holster.
2. An AR made up of FREE parts they received from unknown sources and assembled by someone that shouldn't be allowed to own tools would be a good choice as a defensive weapon.
3. Weapons Training is not needed (as the once a year quals cover that).
4. Handguns don't need night sights or weapon mounted lights.
C4
Would we apply the same line of thinking to police Glocks?
Would we apply the same line of thinking to police Glocks?
No. This subject is 100% about AR's and NOT handguns.
Typically, LE makes good choices for their HG's (Glock, M&P, etc).
C4
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 15:06
Nice Grant
"Handcuffs? We don't need those he is a good guy and said he is sorry, he wouldn't hurt us!"
Actual conversation by a deputy 2 years ago after a DV call. The deputy ended up being assaulted and received 23 sutures to his head and a broken clavicle and arm after the guy decided he didn't want to go to jail when being led to the cruiser.
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 15:08
Not to mention the CV has a low center of gravity unlike its civilian offering. I use a CV for patrol....love it. Glad to be rid of the gay charger they were making me drive.
Not to mention the CV has a low center of gravity unlike its civilian offering. I use a CV for patrol....love it. Glad to be rid of the gay charger they were making me drive.
Dude, I don't know if it was because of the Transformers movie or what, but the charger in that movie made me almost go out and buy one!
So what didn't you like about your LE Charger?
C4
We had a competition shoot at our dept. range, sponsored by S&W (among others) and they had a S&W M4 (full auto) copy with 1/7 barrel, etc. on display. It did look like a very nice carbine and our range guys state it stacks up to a Colt 6920.
We had a competition shoot at our dept. range, sponsored by S&W (among others) and they had a S&W M4 (full auto) copy with 1/7 barrel, etc. on display. It did look like a very nice carbine and our range guys state it stacks up to a Colt 6920.
Yes, their FA offerings are MUCH closer to Colt than their standard commercial and some of their LE AR's are.
Edited to add, S&W KNOW'S what is needed to make a "chart" topping AR15. At this point they have decided not to do it (even though I have begged for the changes).
C4
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 15:22
Well for one cramped, and never could fit all the gear I wanted/needed in it correctly. Plus I always preferred the CV, even as a boy sitting in my dad's in LA when he wore tin.
Almost forgot, wearing our our brake pads in 6k miles. Just isn't suited for the PacNW as far as I am concerned,
To all the S&W M&P15 fans out there, no one here is saying that the rifles suck. Most of the IPs/Dealers/LE here are just asking that you look at the facts and recognize facts as facts.
I own a M&P15 ORC (purchased 3/2009). It has about 2500 rounds through it including 800 rounds at a class. It has never failed me once. But I looked at the chart and compared the FACTS and am able to address what I perceive as shortcomings. I replaced the semi-auto BCG/carbine buffer (which worked fine for about 1500 rounds slow fire) for a BCM full-auto BCG/H buffer. It still has the original bolt.
The 1:9 twist 4140 steel barrel may or may not be a problem for most civilians. I'm able to shoot 1.75-2" groups using Prvi Partizan 69 gr. OTM ammo with mine. The groups open up to 4-6" with Prvi 77 gr. OTM ammo. I rarely ever shoot 75 gr. ammo, but my HD ammo is 5.56 TAP and my go-to rifle is a Daniel Defense with a 1:7 twist barrel. It is also known that 4140 heats up more quickly than 4150, so throat erosion may happen more quickly. If I ever shoot the barrel out, I'll likely replace it with a 1:7 twist barrel.
My S&W is currently my training gun, but I wouldn't hesitate to call on it in a defensive role. However, I know what gun I have and how it differs from the top tier guns.
Dude, I don't know if it was because of the Transformers movie or what, but the charger in that movie made me almost go out and buy one!
So what didn't you like about your LE Charger?
C4
Thread derail but.....
Are you talking about the Bumblebee car? I thought it was a Chevy Camaro?
Well for one cramped, and never could fit all the gear I wanted/needed in it correctly. Plus I always preferred the CV, even as a boy sitting in my dad's in LA when he wore tin.
Almost forgot, wearing our our brake pads in 6k miles. Just isn't suited for the PacNW as far as I am concerned,
Roger that. I can see where they would be cramped.
The local SO has some in all black with the yellow lettering and they look sharp! I try and run all the stop signs and speed through town just so they will pull me over and I can get a better look at them. :p
C4
To all the S&W M&P15 fans out there, no one here is saying that the rifles suck. Most of the IPs/Dealers/LE here are just asking that you look at the facts and recognize facts as facts.
....
My S&W is currently my training gun, but I wouldn't hesitate to call on it in a defensive role. However, I know what gun I have and how it differs from the top tier guns.
Excellent points. I love my M&P. It fills a role for me. I'll take it to work and would protect my family with it. I got it because it was available at a good deal and authorized by my dept. On the other hand, I plan on getting another rifle that won't be restricted by and exceed my department's standards, which most likely means it will not be a S&W.
Hello JKLaughrey!
My interest in the M&P line of ARs is because I bought an MOE version last year and while I'm not a high volume shooter, I am impressed by the build quality and accuracy. Yeah, the “Chart” I get that, but the M&P AR is a good gun for the money.
Originally Posted by jklaughrey
Can you confirm that the contract S&W offerings and purchases by those 2 agencies are the same identical weapon sold to non government contract? Meaning if you bought one off the shelf at your local "bubba" store it would be exactly th same as the one carried by Nevada DPS or Nebraska SP?
As to your your statement above, I cannot verify this one way or another. Is a contract gun more “in spec” than a non contract gun sold to us bubbas from a box store? I can't say...
The press release from S&W is-what-it-is and I will not make a judgment about it. But, I am incline to believe that any manufacturer that wins a firearms contract will have a press release with a similar tone.
Cheers!
Thread derail but.....
Are you talking about the Bumblebee car? I thought it was a Chevy Camaro?
No. It is Barricade.
Seen here: http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-arts/2010/12/watch-transformers-police-car-receive-a-police-escort-video--6014.html
C4
...It is also known that 4140 heats up more quickly than 4150, so throat erosion may happen more quickly...
Is there documentation for this?
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 16:03
Glad you get it, the "chart" I mean. This is all we try to point out. S&W makes a good weapon, it just can't be compared in quality to other manufacturer's that follow and uphold a standard that meets or exceeds the TDP.
No worries, most manuf. who get a contract with a gov't agency will toot their horn and sing praises unto themselves.
Cheers!
Nice to see Smith making a quality AR ... :)
Nice to see Smith making a quality AR ... :)
Everything is in the eye of the beholder.
For me, they need to up the quality and testing done. For someone else, they are the "cat's ass."
C4
jklaughrey
01-16-11, 17:09
..................................................
Is there documentation for this?
I thought I got that information from this site. About the throat erosion (I may be incorrectly referring to the lead of the rifling), I believe that is the mechanism by which barrels are shot out (correct me if I'm wrong). So a barrel that isn't as resistant to heat will soften up and wear quicker at the lead. There were a few posts by some senior members in the past about the longevity of 4140 barrels vs 4150 and MIL-B-11595E steel and the consensus is that it took more rounds to shoot out a MIL-B-11595E barrel. If I've made an incorrect assertion, I apologize, but I'm not going to search too hard for it.
I did a google search for this site to get you some documentation about 4140 vs 4150 and got this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7263
I thought I got that information from this site. About the throat erosion (I may be incorrectly referring to the lead of the rifling), I believe that is the mechanism by which barrels are shot out (correct me if I'm wrong). So a barrel that isn't as resistant to heat will soften up and wear quicker at the lead. There were a few posts by some senior members in the past about the longevity of 4140 barrels vs 4150 and MIL-B-11595E steel and the consensus is that it took more rounds to shoot out a MIL-B-11595E barrel. If I've made an incorrect assertion, I apologize, but I'm not going to search too hard for it.
I did a google search for this site to get you some documentation about 4140 vs 4150 and got this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7263
By all accounts, 4150 CMV is a more durable alloy for barrels than 4140 CM and shows better resistance to throat erosion.
I was unclear in my post and I apologize for any misunderstanding as a result. What I was questioning was the statement that 4140 heats up quicker that 4150. I have seen this claim before but haven't seen any supporting document
By all accounts, 4150 CMV is a more durable alloy for barrels than 4140 CM and shows better resistance to throat erosion.
I was unclear in my post and I apologize for any misunderstanding as a result. What I was questioning was the statement that 4140 heats up quicker that 4150. I have seen this claim before but haven't seen any supporting document
No apology needed :). I did some google searching for about an hour and came up with no technical data I'm able to comprehend. Besides, I'm no engineer or metallurgist. The results mostly returned similar reports echoing opinions like the posts in that thread I linked earlier.
No. It is Barricade.
Seen here: http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-arts/2010/12/watch-transformers-police-car-receive-a-police-escort-video--6014.html
C4
Hate to break it to you but that's a Saleen Mustang. Not a Charger in Transformers.
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/08/Transformers-MustangBarricade.jpg
Now the movie that almost made me buy a Charger was Street Kings with Keanu Reeves.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2enngv5.jpg
So my next question is do we really need to keep this open to discuss S&W? It seems as if some people have had their feelings hurt and this thing is going the same way my Delton, DPMS, Bushy thread went.
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 00:13
I say kill it, a few S&W owners got the message and saw the light. A few fanboys got butthurt, but I no longer see any use for it.
Can you confirm that the contract S&W offerings and purchases by those 2 agencies are the same identical weapon sold to non government contract? Meaning if you bought one off the shelf at your local "bubba" store it would be exactly th same as the one carried by Nevada DPS or Nebraska SP?
I would bet that those weapons sold on contract were done so with specific modifications or offerings that the regular S&W MP15 being touted on this site don't have.
But if you have that info, rather than just a biased press release by S&W, which by the way is not IMO reliable or accurate. Than please feel free to post said actual data and I will offer an apology. Until then any claims made by S&W about weapons sold to agencies on contract are not the same being sold to the private gun owner.
Can you confirm by actual data that the S&W MP15's sold to Departments and on contracts are made with specific modifications? Please feel free to post said actual data. Until then, any claims made about weapons sold to agencies will be considered as the same weapons sold to the private gun owner.
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 00:25
I have no need to confirm since you are just baiting for an argument. I don't work for those agencies. But in my time having worked for the government and LE, it has been my experience that many agencies will have specific requirements and modifications done to a contract of weapons to be produced. Enjoy the information provided but don't bait.
So is this your way of saying that you have no data? Why then, do you expect others too.
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 00:36
I posted that due to the fact he was attempting to provide data based on the manufacturers' claim, which is unsubstantiated. I made my observation based on having factual knowledge of what LE agencies do with weapons contracts, Granted this is not always the case, but many times agencies want a specific weapon from said manuf. but with certain mods that they require.
If you wish to continue this further feel free to PM me. But as I see it you are having a case of fanboyism due to thread almost being shut down. Probably best to move on and glean info from the site that would be more beneficial to you than touting your S&W as being the best.
Check my posts, I am just pointing out your inconsistencies. If you are going to put others down at least be consistant.
It amazes me how Colt is the company that seems to have changed the AR15 platform more over the years then any other. Different pin hole sizes, cut carriers, half circle carriers, sear blocks, sometimes bayo lugs sometimes not, who knows what buffer at what time, etc., etc. But now, according to you.................we are suposed to believe them and not S&W. Look in the mirror, you just might be the fanboy.
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 00:56
I'm done here your on my ignore list now. I saw your posts, attempting to bait Robb on Colt bcg, you in effect are a troll. So move on troll.
You are consistant about one thing..............calling folks names and putting them down..........................until you are called out on it.
Hate to break it to you but that's a Saleen Mustang. Not a Charger in Transformers.
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/08/Transformers-MustangBarricade.jpg
Mmm, Saleen. Not generally a fan of Mustang's but I love what Saleen does with them. Just thought I'd get that in before the thread gets locked... :/
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 01:20
Maybe this little blurb from S&W will just satisfy your issues.
Leland Nichols, Vice President of Global Sales for Smith & Wesson. “Today, we offer over 16 variants of the M&P15 rifle, each designed with a specific set of features needed to address different military and law enforcement requirements.
Looks to me like they adjust and fulfill their weapon contracts according to specified needs, just like I stated previously. Move on dude, life is too short to bait everyone for an argument...GROW UP!
Maybe this little blurb from S&W will just satisfy your issues.
Leland Nichols, Vice President of Global Sales for Smith & Wesson. “Today, we offer over 16 variants of the M&P15 rifle, each designed with a specific set of features needed to address different military and law enforcement requirements.
Looks to me like they adjust and fulfill their weapon contracts according to specified needs, just like I stated previously. Move on dude, life is too short to bait everyone for an argument...GROW UP!
Where does it say that these are not the same variations that are offered to the public?? The whole line of rifles is called "Military & Police". The last time I checked they all say M&P 15 on the side. Once again you have proved nothing. Please leave me on ignore this time.
Hate to break it to you but that's a Saleen Mustang. Not a Charger in Transformers.
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/08/Transformers-MustangBarricade.jpg
Now the movie that almost made me buy a Charger was Street Kings with Keanu Reeves.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2enngv5.jpg
Your right! I could have sworn that I read it was a charger. :mad:
Great looking car none the less.
C4
I hate having to clear out 30 emails with this "M R Not" "M R 2" stuff. Take it to the other site fellas. or Facebook.
If you own a SW like I do, go shoot it till it breaks. If it dont break, shoot more. If it does break, figure out why, come here start a discussion on why it broke then fix it or junk it.
Bottom line, more shooting, less typing.
Can you confirm by actual data that the S&W MP15's sold to Departments and on contracts are made with specific modifications? Please feel free to post said actual data. Until then, any claims made about weapons sold to agencies will be considered as the same weapons sold to the private gun owner.
I can as I was involved in some of the discussions and know of problems that had to be fixed before the agency would accept the guns.
Just so you are aware, S&W have 3 different lines. They are Commercial, LE and NFA(Military/LE). The SBR's and FA guns are built to different specs.
C4
I hate having to clear out 30 emails with this "M R Not" "M R 2" stuff. Take it to the other site fellas. or Facebook.
If you own a SW like I do, go shoot it till it breaks. If it dont break, shoot more. If it does break, figure out why, come here start a discussion on why it broke then fix it or junk it.
Bottom line, more shooting, less typing.
Great post! ;) I have one too and subscribe to the same mentality of attempting to shoot till it breaks. 16,000 rounds so far, no breakage yet....I'll keep on trying...
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 09:59
Thanks for the assist. Since I didn't know of any agencies around me that currently went with an M&P contract with specific modifications. I was unable to keep the fanboy at bay. Maybe now he will eat some crow and shuffle back to arfcom from whence he came.
Cheers!
SWATcop556
01-17-11, 10:53
This thread has already come very close to a lock. I'm leaving it open for now but if the bullshit continues the infractions will fly and certain people will rake a time out.
I can as I was involved in some of the discussions and know of problems that had to be fixed before the agency would accept the guns.
Just so you are aware, S&W have 3 different lines. They are Commercial, LE and NFA(Military/LE). The SBR's and FA guns are built to different specs.
C4
C4, thanks for the info. I've been wondering if S&W had seperate production lines for LE, Mil and civilian M&P rifles. Based on all the LE contracts S&W is winning, it would seem to be a logical assumption. Now we know!
Cheers
Kentucky Cop
01-17-11, 14:50
Hey Grant,
You mentioned that the NC Troopers attached to the JFrueler bunch special ordered 600 or so S&W rifles. I can look back for the facts but I believe they were 14.5 rifles that were gassed properly etc. Since I am LE, is it possible for me to talk to a S&W rep for KY and get the same type of rifle? Just curious.....
Also, I enjoy hearing from some of the folks that are adding new positive information to this thread that I was unaware of. Lets knock off the BS please. I am learning new shit I never knew.:agree:
JFrueler/Grant- any pics of the NC 14.5 duty rifles?
KC
I can as I was involved in some of the discussions and know of problems that had to be fixed before the agency would accept the guns.
Just so you are aware, S&W have 3 different lines. They are Commercial, LE and NFA(Military/LE). The SBR's and FA guns are built to different specs.
C4
Grant, can you give us a little more detail about the different specs that were used and the problems that needed to be fixed? Being from Mass, we have very different and, need I say, ridiculous laws here. Of all the different models offered, to Le and other proffessionals, I have been of the understanding that it is mainly the furniture, hardware, but not so much the internals... there are only like 5 models we can buy, they have to be Mass compliant.. it's like hand guns, the MP45c is not legal in Mass.. but it's made 10 minutes from my home and business. In fact I just made a quick trip up to the retail store for S&W, had to check on a few things I was interested in.. I'll be going back up tonite to their shooting range for some f-u-n..!!! :)
Thanks in advance..
One more thing Grant, aren't you at the Shot Show..? if so, how bout some inside info from there... thanks again,
Hey Grant,
You mentioned that the NC Troopers attached to the JFrueler bunch special ordered 600 or so S&W rifles. I can look back for the facts but I believe they were 14.5 rifles that were gassed properly etc. Since I am LE, is it possible for me to talk to a S&W rep for KY and get the same type of rifle? Just curious.....
Also, I enjoy hearing from some of the folks that are adding new positive information to this thread that I was unaware of. Lets knock off the BS please. I am learning new shit I never knew.:agree:
JFrueler/Grant- any pics of the NC 14.5 duty rifles?
KC
I am sure you can (if you guys are buying enough of them). We can also help with this type of sale.
C4
Grant, can you give us a little more detail about the different specs that were used and the problems that needed to be fixed? Being from Mass, we have very different and, need I say, ridiculous laws here. Of all the different models offered, to Le and other proffessionals, I have been of the understanding that it is mainly the furniture, hardware, but not so much the internals... there are only like 5 models we can buy, they have to be Mass compliant.. it's like hand guns, the MP45c is not legal in Mass.. but it's made 10 minutes from my home and business. In fact I just made a quick trip up to the retail store for S&W, had to check on a few things I was interested in.. I'll be going back up tonite to their shooting range for some f-u-n..!!! :)
Thanks in advance..
I have an NDA signed with S&W so I am not really going to post specifics online (sorry).
S&W has at least 4 NFA AR's with one of them being FA. That doesn't mean that if you order 100 of them that they wouldn't modify them to your liking.
C4
One more thing Grant, aren't you at the Shot Show..? if so, how bout some inside info from there... thanks again,
I leave for SS tomorrow.
C4
GLOCKMASTER
01-17-11, 16:30
Hey Grant,
You mentioned that the NC Troopers attached to the JFrueler bunch special ordered 600 or so S&W rifles. I can look back for the facts but I believe they were 14.5 rifles that were gassed properly etc. Since I am LE, is it possible for me to talk to a S&W rep for KY and get the same type of rifle? Just curious.....
Also, I enjoy hearing from some of the folks that are adding new positive information to this thread that I was unaware of. Lets knock off the BS please. I am learning new shit I never knew.:agree:
JFrueler/Grant- any pics of the NC 14.5 duty rifles?
KC
Each rifle comes from S&W with four thirty round mags, VTAC sling, Trijicon front sight post, barrel mount side sling swivel and mil spec cleaning kit. The pictures below are of the rifle immediately after it has been removed from the shipping container.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/DSC_0136.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/DSC_0132.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/DSC_0131.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/DSC_0125.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/DSC_0128.jpg
One of my instructors with his rifle. He is closing on 6000 or more rounds with his rifle without any issues.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Work%20Rifle/2010100205-1.jpg
Thanks for the excellent pictures, JFreuler! Glad to hear the S&W M&P-15 NC Trooper works as well as it looks.
I can as I was involved in some of the discussions and know of problems that had to be fixed before the agency would accept the guns.
Just so you are aware, S&W have 3 different lines. They are Commercial, LE and NFA(Military/LE). The SBR's and FA guns are built to different specs.
C4
Thanks for the info. A actual dealer like yourself would know the answers rather then just making assumptions.
Kentucky Cop
01-17-11, 20:53
PM sent JFrueler. Nice pictures as always....!:secret:
KC
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 21:16
Since when is an educated observation based on experience and knowledge of common industry practice an assumption.
Wow, very nice pictures JF. It loooks like the first pics are of MP15A's, but the last one of your instructor looks to be an MP15X.. ? Did he get a different model with a few magpul options or did he dress it up himself... I did some poking around on the S&W website, very interesting info there related to LE, both state and federal. Who and how to contact for doing business. I noted Grant is one of the LE Distributors for his area, very nice. I also noticed the literature on the M&P4's... now that is very kewl. I had no idea Smith has a full auto AR.. What I found more interesting is they do have what appears to be very different internals, including magnetic particle tested bolt and barrel. I copied a link to the LE Catalog, some interesting info there.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/2010_SW_LawEnforcementCatalog_1.pdf
here's a link to the website: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757918_-1_757916_757787_image#
JF, any other detail about the specs on your AR's, did you get any full auto.. :) Are your barrels the 1\7 or the 1\9 twist..
Thanks in advance,
Each rifle comes from S&W with four thirty round mags, VTAC sling, Trijicon front sight post, barrel mount side sling swivel and mil spec cleaning kit. The pictures below are of the rifle immediately after it has been removed from the shipping container.
....
One of my instructors with his rifle. He is closing on 6000 or more rounds with his rifle without any issues.
....
=================================
JF,
That's a nice looking fixed rear sight on the "out of the container" guns. Who's the maker?
I've picked up a few S&W marked Troy folding rear sight take-offs but never seen a fixed. Looks like your instructor has one of the S&W folding Troys??
.
jklaughrey
01-17-11, 21:43
Good obs. that is a good rear BUIS.
Kentucky Cop
01-17-11, 21:46
Just looked at the LE catalog. I had no idea you could get the M&P15A and PX in a 14.5 barrel. That appears to be the platform that NC started with and they made their adjustments from there. I am curious on the specifics of how they ordered their rifles.
KC
Just looked at the LE catalog. I had no idea you could get the M&P15A and PX in a 14.5 barrel. That appears to be the platform that NC started with and they made their adjustments from there. I am curious on the specifics of how they ordered their rifles.
KC
my guess, not good, I know....... is they ordered the 15A and added some options... what are you meaning by specifics..
Kentucky Cop
01-17-11, 22:16
"AHEM", ...I will take a stab at it but Grant and JF could probably give us the low low on details. I would think that the NC Trooper rifles are more to "spec". Meaning, they have the correct size GP and better internals (1/7 twist maybe) Is their rifles middys? I cant tell. Also, they went with the 14.5 barrel also. Hell, I don't know. Read slide #68 and #175 of this thread and you will get the idea. I think its best to just wait for them to chime in.
Looking back when I ordered my 15T 2 years ago, I wonder if it had better internals because it was a LE gun than say one that was not LE and right off the shelf. My gun guy who is retired police (trust) I think said that I should wait and order the LE one from him than to buy one off the shelf from him. I think thats why I waited for a few weeks to get the LE one. I remember him saying that the bolts etc were better. Again, its been a few years and I could be talking out my ass. I believe there is a difference but......, GRANT....little help here.
Just hold on, they will know. They are running around SS right now so will see. I am currently without right now. I had a lapse in judgement and sold my 6920 patrol rifle to a rookie and the 15T went to my brother in law who works with me. I need a solid patrol rifle that can get slammed around my cruiser trunk, cage, fences, cinder block walls and still function properly. I am tossed in the air right now on which one to get again. I want it simple. Wishing it was 14.5 barrel middy, FSB, mini scout or x300 light on a MOE type handguard/IWC mount. (NC rifle maybe?) VCAS padded sling and my Eotech XPS that I still have from the old rifles.
Hell, last week I almost bought a FN SLP '18 semi shotty instead. I am a hot mess right now but with the way folks are randomly cranking off rounds around here, I need to get something back in my cruiser ASAP.
And no, my agency hasn't authorized BCM.
KC
I'm with ya.. on an interesting note, Smith unvailed their version of the Judge.. tThe Govenor... :) I want one.. need something to go with my other freak... SW500..
I'm with ya.. on an interesting note, Smith unvailed their version of the Judge.. tThe Govenor... :) I want one.. need something to go with my other freak... SW500..
Ok... maybe not... but sure would be funny... they should call one Da Govenator..!! :haha:
Oh ya, Gnite..
My M&P-15 lower will be getting a Daniel Defense LW 16" midlength upper when it arrives, hopefully Thursday. A huge upgrade over the ArmaLite upper that's been on it two years. Don't think S&W offers a middy yet but it shouldn't be too hard for them to offer an upper like that down the road.
Now what model number to give this one... M&P-15DD? :D
Kentucky Cop
01-18-11, 09:06
My M&P-15 lower will be getting a Daniel Defense LW 16" midlength upper when it arrives, hopefully Thursday. A huge upgrade over the ArmaLite upper that's been on it two years. Don't think S&W offers a middy yet but it shouldn't be too hard for them to offer an upper like that down the road.
Now what model number to give this one... M&P-15DD? :D
Who knows what the manufacturers will release at shot show this year. There may be a middy somewhere in the lineup. Will see....
KC
Good point, Kentucky Cop. I hope S&W does add a midlength this year. No doubt it would be popular and it's not hard to do so why not test the water...
Is this what you're looking for. This is my bud at the shot show showing off a new Colt...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq10sk69zIs&feature=player_embedded
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.