View Full Version : "W.Va. deputy's gun explodes in his hand"
http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=1977780
MARSHALL COUNTY, W.Va. — Officials in Marshall County said they've learned it could have been the weapon -- not the ammunition -- that caused a gun to explode in a deputy's hand last week. Chief Deputy Kevin Cecil said organizations from across the country have called him recently, saying they've had similar situations with their guns.
"It's a combination of them wanting to know what happened … along with possible problems with their firearms," Cecil said. A deputy was using the .45 caliber Glock 21 for the first time at a firing range last week when the lower half exploded, breaking off the trigger, sending parts flying and injuring his hand. Cecil said he initially thought it was the ammunition that caused the problem, but not he's not so sure. He said, as time goes on, he's learned quite a bit about similar situations throughout the country.
"We're actually adjusting our thinking a little bit. It might not just be the ammunition. There may be a certain issue with the firearm itself, so we're going to send it off to have it independently evaluated," Cecil said.
Video with shots of the gun: http://www.wtov9.com/news/21907727/detail.html
I'm really curious to see exactly why the suspect the gun. I thought .45 auto was low(er)-pressure ammo and this type of thing would not happen.
:confused:
Heavy Metal
12-13-09, 22:04
The 21 is a variant of the 20 which is a 10mm. It should easily handle .45 pressures.
Im betting the Sheriff is simply trying to cover his Departments ass from any potential liability for injuries sustained to his Deputy.
Im interested to know specifically what ammo his Department uses for training/qualifications....
My thoughts went right to ammo since the Sheriff is trying this issue in the press, sending the pistol to an "independent" lab and has made no mention of any contact with Glock. Sounds to me like he violated that whole "do not shoot reloaded ammunition" thing in the owners manual. I imagine he called Glock and their first question was "what kind of ammo" and the conversation went straight downhill from there.
i keep hearing this "unsupported chamber" thing in certain glocks..
the 9 and 10mm supposedly have supported chambers... if i drop a round in the barrel of my g19 i can see a little sliver of brass near the feed ramp.
so are the 40's and 45's punched out larger in the chamber (all other geometry being the same) and thus have the feed ramp intrude more into the chamber?
i'm still not sure this is a real issue... given the number of glocks out there, and all the crazy loads people drop into them, and the apparently prevalent belief that they don't need cleaning or other care.... yeah you're gonna have some guns pop...
SWATcop556
12-14-09, 01:59
Every single Glock KB that I have read about and seen (which is two) have all been ammo related.
In fact I would be willing to be that a very very high percentage of KB's in quality weapons are ammo related.
I'm leaning towards bullshit on it being the gun that caused the KB. Sounds like the Sheriff's Office is using less that spec or even reloaded ammo.
SW-Shooter
12-14-09, 02:00
AMMO RELATED. Case closed.
Every single Glock KB that I have read about and seen (which is two) have all been ammo related.
In fact I would be willing to be that a very very high percentage of KB's in quality weapons are ammo related.
I'm leaning towards bullshit on it being the gun that caused the KB. Sounds like the Sheriff's Office is using less that spec or even reloaded ammo.
Had two old timers come to me (on separate occasions) and say can I use my Glock tool to adjust the sights, Glock 17 both, shooting 6" to the left at 7 yds!
Both using the same re-loader? Making major with lead bullets, did not get a live round to pull a bullet to weigh it, heavy? I reckon.
Both slides had cracked at the ejection port, the thin bit. Glock replaced the one (shooter was in his 80s!) not sure on the other.
Alpha Sierra
12-14-09, 05:46
I'm really curious to see exactly why the suspect the gun. I thought .45 auto was low(er)-pressure ammo and this type of thing would not happen.
:confused:
Do .45 ACP Glocks have unsupported chambers? Is it possible this cartridge was overcharged?
IDK about the first one, but the second one is definitely possible.
I've actually seen a Glock 21 and a Glock 30 KB on factory Federal ammo.
The .45's and .40's have it happen a lot more frequently than the 9's and 10's, which were purpose built for those two calibers.
I've actually seen a Glock 21 and a Glock 30 KB on factory Federal ammo.
The .45's and .40's have it happen a lot more frequently than the 9's and 10's, which were purpose built for those two calibers.
Being a realist, as Glock is the biggest supplier to LE in the world, the law of averages must be seen, in all facets, KB's being one of them, stick to 9mm (like me) it will be a first time every time bang.
At least it has been for me.
AMMO RELATED. Case closed.
syas who? what's your source?
I've actually seen a Glock 21 and a Glock 30 KB on factory Federal ammo.
I've seen a 9mm Glock kB! shooting factory ammo. The oft-repeated theory that it only happens to stupid people with bad reloads is just marketing.
Would it keep me from using a 9mm Glock? No. But does it happen? Yes. And it seems to happen to the .45s the most often.
It may very well turn out that this was a case of bad ammo. But for so many otherwise rational and gun-savvy people to suggest the Sheriff is trying to cover something up is completely unfounded at this point.
In my experience, when an agency insists on sending a gun to an independent lab rather than returning it to the manufacturer, it's because the agency doesn't trust the manufacturer to provide a complete and truthful account. BTDT a few times...
The .45's and .40's have it happen a lot more frequently than the 9's and 10's, which were purpose built for those two calibers.
And the rest of my quote......:D
I'm not about to say that Glocks are the personification of handgun immaculate conception. But the more publicized cases of G21 detonation (notably the Portland Police G21 issue{s} a few years back) were clearly laid at the doorsteps of the ammunition manufacturer, Federal, as I recall-as ascertained by an independant lab (HP White, as I recall).
I would tend to be more skeptical of the ammunition as opposed to the gun, from the onset, at least.
Best, Jon
He must have been limp-wristing. You know that's the only thing that causes Glocks to malfunction.
He must have been limp-wristing. You know that's the only thing that causes Glocks to malfunction.
man i hate that line on glock talk.
i had a stovepiping issue with my G19, and posted on glocktalk.. everybody was like "you're limp wristing" not to toot my own horn, but i have damn good technique.
turns out it was a tweaked feed lip on a mag. :rolleyes: course i had to figure that out for myself.
shoulda posted here. :D
man i hate that line on glock talk.
i had a stovepiping issue with my G19, and posted on glocktalk.. everybody was like "you're limp wristing" not to toot my own horn, but i have damn good technique.
turns out it was a tweaked feed lip on a mag. :rolleyes: course i had to figure that out for myself.
shoulda posted here. :D
I had a new Glock 19 (a green frame) ejection problems, changed every part under the sun, no fix... obtained an over sized spring loaded bearing, not available to we armorers! That cured it, shot thousands of rounds through it, now gone to RTF2 Glock 19 for match shooting. Shot first IDPA match Sunday, fantastic!
So, when this does happen, what exactly is happening?
Is the gun slightly out of battery? Over pressure ammo? Is carbon preventing good lock up? When things fail, they fail in a specific way and there is always a cause(s).
this has already received a ton of mileage from the various glock haters over on sigforum
my first thought was that the gun didn't go all the way into battery, probably because of bad ammunition, and then KB'd from there....
i'd be interested in hearing theories on what the gun could do by itself to cause that failure...(i guess if the chamber or barrel were out of spec, they wouldn't let the round to seat properly, causing it to fire out of battery)
i would imagine it would have to be a combination of several things (ammo and gun) to get that result...but simply having a less than supported chamber won't cause a perfect factory round to blow like that...
Relying upon the video images... High confidence of ammo problem. That failure pattern is indicative of a gun in battery at the time of the event. Similar failure pattern was seen in some others firing overcharged loads or into bore obstructions. An OOB discharge is exceptionally unlikely.
Regarding case support in the G21s, here are examples of two. There were minor changes to the barrel and lockup geometry over time.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/G21Support1Large.jpg
CZF on left, LET on right:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/G21Support2Large.jpg
my first thought was that the gun didn't go all the way into battery, probably because of bad ammunition, and then KB'd from there....
Of course, if a gun goes off out of battery and kB!s, that's the gun's fault regardless of whether the ammo is responsible for the out of battery condition in the first place. All sorts of things can cause a pistol to be out of battery. The gun is supposed to be designed in such a way to prevent it from firing in that condition.
Relying upon the video images... High confidence of ammo problem. That failure pattern is indicative of a gun in battery at the time of the event.
I'd have to agree, at least given what little you can see in the video. It looks like a significant amount of force was blown down and out before the gun could properly unlock to relieve the pressure. If it had been OOB to begin with, that wouldn't be the expected outcome.
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