NEW to the WOrLd of SHooting, How To Decide Between 6.8 or .223.. Very confused..

[Sean Price]

Greetings comrads,

I am completely NEW to the world of the AR and as yet still have not even shot one, mainly due to lack of availability amongst other things such as it NOT being permitted in 100% of the shooting ranges within an hour or two of my residence..

So I have been doing alot of reading.. and I mean alot.. mainly from books as stated before, kinda new to this whole internet craze.. but my sources have mainly been magazines.. basically anything with a gun on the cover, think: Guns and Ammo, LE and Military, Tactical Fighter, Special Weopanry, ect, ect..

There seems to be a HUGE and I MEAN huge difference in what I read there from the "proffessionals" and the "real deal" guys on the internet.. but thats for another post in the near future..

What it comes down to is this.. again from my readings.. "apparently" the 5.56mm/.223 caliber is woefully inadequate, particularly for our military in CQF, the readings bring up time and time again the whole BLACKHAWK down scenario, i.e. the fighting in the "Mogue"

anyways LONG story short... the Black Rifle is now coming in various other flavors..

Of Special note is the whole 6.8SPC caliber or something of that note..

Obviously majority of us civies will never get put to the test like our honored military does..

But moving forward with our long gun purchases,.. should we continue supporting the "weaker" .223/5.56mm caliber or should we start buying the ALMIGHTY black rifle in the 6.8 caliber and save ourselves possible headaches..

I mean I take what I read and hear with a grain of salt and ultimately research the sh*T out of something before I make a purchase(i.e. my history here, wink ) BUT...

The way these magazines read.. its like I'd be a fool to continue with the .223/5.56 cartridge and be better off with the higher stopping power of the 6.8

But yeah, what do you guys with the knowledge and wisdom have to say about all that? Have you guys read or come across some of these articles in these magazines like I have, What do think about all that?

Oh and one last thing.. THIS might not be the right place.. but regardless of whether one goes .223/5.56 or 6.8 ONE will need ammo and lots of it..

For either caliber, whats the best and cheapest for

a. general plinking and learning your weapon

and

b. for home defense and possible hunting and survival, i.e. shooting a dear for food, or killing some wild bobcat in self defense or even a murderous mountain man?


I want to thank you and advance for reading my SUPER long post and look forward to some good info and knowledge, this topic has been bothering me and stumping or quite some time..


oNe

[CLHC]

Don't know if this may help but. . .

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22595&highlight=5.56+versus

Enjoy!

[aslink]

Get the AR in 5.56. Learn the rifle, then if you need more get a different upper in a larger caliber. It's a great base to start with, you can get a 22LR upper and plink as well as something in 6.5 or 6.8. Oly even makes an upper in 30 cal if you feel the need. There is more stuff available for the AR than pretty much anything else out there.

Besides they're just plain fun to shoot.

[cpekz]

If I was going to have only one AR it would be in 5.56, some of the reasons being:

-Much better parts availability
-Much better aftermarket support
-Better variety of ammo ie: 55gr, 62gr, 68-69gr, 75gr, 77gr etc.
-Standard NATO round (wide availability when compared to rounds like the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, etc.)
-Lower recoil which results in faster and more consistent hits in close quarters marksmanship (CQM)

Contrary to all the crying about lethality in gun rags lately, I believe the 5.56 is still an effective round for what it was originally designed for. Especially with the proper ammo selection and consideration of the idea that generally speaking a civilian would not be justified in engaging a target past 50 meters (and that would be pushing it in most cases). We must also remember that a lot of the lethality reports are based off the military's use of the 62gr SS109 bullet (M855 cartridge). It is documented as having wide variations in terminal ballistics resulting in over all unreliable (read: poor) performance. An example of one of these reports would be the mentioned comments from CAG about the 1993 battle in Mogadishu.

Perhaps when the big players begin to test more and push for a new caliber it may be time to switch. Right now, though? I wouldn't put all my chips in on it. This is my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

[joshua79109]

I'd start with a good 5.56X45 and then if you want something else later - go for it.

The main reasons I would start with the 5.56...


- Parts availability

- ammo availability

- ammo cost

I believe in training and then more training. The 5.56 will cost less to shoot a lot.

I also like to think in terms of shtf scenarios due to large weather events, terrorist acts, etc and I believe the 5.56 would be easier to find at those times. Proper preparation helps this issue, but in an extended event a person might need more ammo. I like to have weapons that use the same ammo as our military first and then a fun gun if desired - of course that's just my opinion and I've found that not everyone agrees.

Good luck in your decision

[rob_s]

5.56, definitely.

6.8, .22, 9mm, weird exotic shit... You can do all of that later if you find a need for it but you're better off sticking with the native caliber for now and establishing if there is something it's not doing for you that you need to address. In my experience I think the following are the only strengths of the alternative calibers and all have considerable drawbacks to offset these.

6.8 SPC: if you establish that 5.56 is not giving you the ballistic effect needed on soft targets (human or animal), ammo of like quality is almost 1:1 in cost of 5.56. Tradeoff, expensive to shoot with no cheap plinking ammo available, can be hard to find locally.

9mm: if you have a need to shoot indoors at non-rifle rated ranges or at non-rifle rated steel. better suppression than 5.56. Tradeoff, recoils more than 5.56, can be finicky to run, mags can be an issue, load carriage can be an issue, manual of arms is slightly different in terms of feel and shape of magazines.

.22 LR: if you have a need for cheap blasting/plinking and limited training uses. Tradeoff, manual of arms can be drastically different (bolt-hold-open, safety movement), non-existent recoil means rapid shot training is not a 1:1 with the big calibers, can be finicky to run and have magazine issues.

[Palmguy]

So I have been doing alot of reading.. and I mean alot.. mainly from books as stated before, kinda new to this whole internet craze.. but my sources have mainly been magazines.. basically anything with a gun on the cover, think: Guns and Ammo, LE and Military, Tactical Fighter, Special Weopanry, ect, ect..

There seems to be a HUGE and I MEAN huge difference in what I read there from the "proffessionals" and the "real deal" guys on the internet.. but thats for another post in the near future..

...

The way these magazines read.. its like I'd be a fool to continue with the .223/5.56 cartridge and be better off with the higher stopping power of the 6.8


I'd recommend avoiding the gun rags and some of the other internet sites if you want to improve the quality of the information you are taking in.

[Captains1911]

For your first AR, I'd go 5.56 all the way. As far as the "inadequacy" of the 5.56 cartridge, I'm pretty sure the military would have stopped using it a LONG time ago if that was true. As others have said, parts availability and ammo cost and availability are also major advantages of the 5.56.

The only thing that would steer me away from the 5.56 would be if a primary use of the rifle was deer or larger game hunting, and then I would go .308.

[Mark21]

I'm a big fan of the 6.8SPC, but like others have mentioned, the 5.56 should be the standard that you learn on, and then you can graduate to other platforms. I personally love my 6.8, but I also have three 5.56s, including the RRA that was my first black rifle.

As Rob S mentioned, the 6.8 can be very expensive to shoot -- $0.75-1.00 per round. Hence most 6.8 shooters (myself included) reload. If you don't reload already, that opens up a whole new area of things you will have to learn. Just something to keep in mind.

[William B.]

I'd start with a good 5.56X45 and then if you want something else later - go for it.

The main reasons I would start with the 5.56...


- Parts availability

- ammo availability

- ammo cost



+1 Availability and compatability are key!... Plus the 5.56 round works fine. You just have to pick the right type of 5.56 round for your application and know the limitations and capabilities of that round. That being said, I have seen a 77gr 5.56 round take a man down with one shot center mass.

[Blitzm4]

Get your first AR in 5.56 or a 22 cal rifle with a lower you can use for 5.56 later.

[Roklok]

If you are not going to use it for hunting, go with the 5.56.

[strambo]

Easy, 5.56.

You aren't limited to ball ammo like the military. If for personal defense, load it up with some Hornady TAP. Less recoil, inexpensive mags a plenty, less expensive training ammo, mo' betta parts availability...

Doesn't mean 6.8 isn't a great cartridge though, just doesn't make since for a 1st or only AR unless you can afford to train with it and have plenty of magazines and some spare parts.

[sdacbob]

Don't rule out the 5.45 Russian. Its cheap, accurate in the AR, and has low recoil.

[9mmkungfu]

Don't rule out the 5.45 Russian. Its cheap, accurate in the AR, and has low recoil.

+1

I love mine. I have a 6.8 too if more power is desired.

[ra2bach]

Sean, if you are the same Sean that's going around chasing his tale in this thread back in October, then son, I think you need to slow your roll a bit...

http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=456915&postcount=161

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you seem to be your own worst enemy at making decisions - first, you couldn't decide what gun to get, then training, now it's caliber, with the final result that you have yet to purchase anything...

I know it's tough making a first time purchase. we all want "The Best". no regrets, no remorse. but it's not like that - there is no Holy Grail when it comes to this stuff.

what there is, is a lot of stuff to be avoided (which I think you have been responsibly shepherded away from) and the rest is personal preference.

the key words here are PREFERENCE, and PERSONAL.

you can't have a preference for something till you've actually tried it! likewise, your preference needs to be personal. no amount of reading, or asking other people what THEY like is going to give you what's perfect for YOUR needs...

that said, there is a shortcut here, one that has all the hard work of testing and decision making done for you --

FIRST: get a gun. just pick one and buy it. assume that between the better ones you hear mentioned a lot, there is no difference in function and quality. start simple, stay in your budget. add stuff to it later if you decide you NEED it.

SECOND: get it in 5.56, this is what the platform is designed around. this is the most EFFICIENT caliber for this gun. it is the most availability, cost, size, and storage efficient centerfire cartridge at this time.

it may not be the most "effective" cartridge - if you want to use it to hunt large game with, get yourself a bolt action .308 or a 30-30 and be done with that. but I guarantee, every single paper target or pop-can, or piece of steel you hit with 5.56, will be stone deadder than a door nail. remember though, several hundred thousand men and women use it every day to good effect in combat all around the world...

THIRD: don't wear out the goodwill of the folks on this site. several knowledgeable folks have taken their time to help you. accept that and move forward, let not your heart be troubled.

then thank them for the help.

then later, when you've followed steps 1 and 2, and you inevitably have more questions, feel free to come back to ask again. hopefully, though, you'll have begun building your own base of knowledge and your questions will be more subjective than hypothetical.

good luck...

[EzGoingKev]

Unless you intend to use the rifle for hunting and need a bigger caliber for that then buy it 5.56.

I always buy firearms in NATO calibers first and then expand from there. With a NATO caliber weapon you will always be able to get ammo for it.

When you start getting into other calibers it becomes a crap shoot.

[tirod]

I am completely NEW to the world of the AR and as yet still have not even shot one, mainly due to lack of availability amongst other things such as it NOT being permitted in 100% of the shooting ranges within an hour or two of my residence..

I would suggest addressing this condition. I realize that may take time.

I bought an HK91 for $160 when .308 could be bought surplus for 12 cents a round. Things have changed. An AR would be a relatively expensive platform to start shooting, but 5.56 would be a relatively inexpensive round to shoot.

AR's with .22 uppers are common now and good trainers, cheap to shoot, and can still deliver most of the experience needed. Outfitting a 10/22 can be done on a budget and shot a lot that way.

But, the first problem needs to be addressed, so that the next step can be.

Joining the National Guard/Army Reserve can get the training - and pay you to learn. It's real world experience, not gun mag writers imagination.

Remember that they get paid to churn the market and sell magazines. You'll learn to discern which ones actually have something to say.

[USAFR]

said it, 5.56 get it shoot it, learn it.

RobL