View Full Version : 30-30 win lever action rifle a viable choice for an allround hd rifle or not?
iceman0085
12-17-09, 11:40
Hello, I have the chance to get an used marlin 30-30 lever action rifle at very good price. I will use it for target/fun shooting and in an case of emergency for sd. My first choice for an allround rilfe was the remington 7600 in in 308 win but the marlin would be much cheaper. 30-30 win rounds cost a bit more, than the 308 win rounds here in austria but the difference is not big enough to worry about. What do you think about the 30-30 win round? Would you say that it is an decent sd round or not? and if so which factory load would you recomend?
Thx for your answers in advance
Greetings from austria.
Im not the Dr but,
The 30-30 is a product of the engineering of John Moses Browning. He took his very successful 1886 rifle action and scaled in down to 2/3rds size to make the 1894. He combined this with a new chambering, the 30-30. The way ammunition was cataloged by US manufacturers in the 19th Century was “caliber-black powder charge-bullet weight”, or “30-30-150”, or a 30 caliber bullet, over 30 grains of FF back powder, with a 150 grain bullet.
The ballistics of the 30-30 is very similar to the 7.62x39. We used Winchester 94s in 30-30 as a Law Enforcement carbine for almost a century. I believe that more medium size game in North America has been taken with the 30-30 in the last 100 +/- years than all other cartridges combined.
30-30 VS 7.62x39 chart...
Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
R30301 Remington® Express® 150 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.193
R762391 Remington® Express® 125 Pointed Soft Point 7 1/2 0.267
Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 150 SP CL 2390 1973 1605 1303 1095 974
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 2365 2062 1783 1533 1320 1154
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 150 SP CL 1902 1296 858 565 399 316
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 1552 1180 882 652 483 370
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 150 SP CL 0.2 zero -2.4 -7.6 -16.1 -28.8
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 0.1 zero -2.2 -6.7 -14.0 -24.5
Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 150 SP CL 1.6 zero -4.3 -12.1 -24.0 -64.2 -133.2
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 1.5 zero -3.8 -10.4 -20.1 -51.3 -102.5
As you may have guessed, I like the Winchester better than the Marlin, but they are serviceable.
B
NMBigfoot02
12-17-09, 14:00
30-30 should be fine for HD ballistically, but understand that by choosing a lever action, reloads are going to be slow. Not sure how it compares to the 7600, but it should be considered.
I personally have used a 30-30 for deer hunting since I was 13, and it could be adapted to an HD role, if a magazine fed semi-auto rifle is out of the question.
iceman0085
12-17-09, 14:56
Thx for the answers.
NMBigfoot02 well an semi auto rilfe is not realy out oft he question but here in austria it is hard to get semi auto rifles due to silly laws. At the moment there are only three rifles available that would be suitable as an allround rilfe. The OA 15 ( an ar 15 clone ), the styr aug z and an semi auto sig 550. In 2010 the h&K mr223 (an hk 416 clone) will be available. The problem is, that the semi auto rifles are very epensive here in austria,. This the reason why I am intersed in lever action or pump action rifles.
I think you'd be just fine.
Is the OA-15 made by Olympic Arms? If so, I'd pass on that and stick with the Steyr AUG or the HK MR223, if and when you decide to go through the paperwork and cost of obtaining a semi auto rifle in Osterreich.
We used Winchester 92s in 30-30 as a Law Enforcement carbine for almost a century.
B
Minor point here, but I think you meant Winchester 94s, not 92s. I think the 92 receiver was too short for anything longer than revolver cartridges.
This may help.
THE TACTICAL 30-30 LEVER ACTION RIFLE
Copyright 1999, Gabriel Suarez
All Rights Reserved
Ask any student of small arms to name the most typically American rifle and chances are that they will name the .30-30 lever action rifle. Manufactured for over a century by Marlin, Winchester, and others - the lever action invokes images of the Old West. We see Jimmy Stewart in "Winchester '73" smiting the enemies of justice and freedom with his "repeater". We see John Wayne admonishing his adversaries to "fill their hands" as he gallops forward, a stubby Winchester in each hand. And, of course, we see photos of that most American of presidents - Theodore Roosevelt wielding his lever action against all manner of beasties in Africa. This ubiquitous and understated weapon has played a very major role in this country's history.
Today the lever action is most often seen in the hands of close range deer hunters as a brush gun. It is not likely to be the first weapon that comes to our minds when the talk turns to fighting. But make no mistake friends, as a fighting (anti-personnel) weapon, the lever action is just as useful and deadly today, on a lonely stretch of highway in the bad part of town, as it was in the dusty cow towns of the Kansas Territory more than a century ago.
Today a rifle of this sort might be kept in tactical storage in a hall closet, above the hearth, or in the trunk of a car for unexpected social unpleasantries. In such a role the lever action has several advantages over other weapons that are more commonly thought of as fighting tools.
Primarily, the lever action is inexpensive. Used examples in perfect working condition may be had for about a hundred bucks. Even brand new weapons will set you back less than the price of a night on the town for two. Compare that with the price of a more military-like, and hopefully still legal, Sturmgewehr-fighting rifle (If you can find one for sale these days)!
The ammunition (.30-30 Winchester Centerfire) has all the characteristics desirable in a mid-range fighting rifle cartridge. In fact, the ballistics of the .30-30 cartridge are amazingly similar to those for the most specifically designed fighting cartridge of all, the 7.62X39 Russian chambered in the AK-47. Shot for shot, the .30-30 will do everything you could ask from a mid-range tactical rifle. And it will do these things far better than many military weapons will!
Being "sporting guns", lever actions are usually issued with fairly good triggers which are crisp and conducive to hitting. Even if the trigger action is rough on some pieces, it is a simple matter to have it brought up to speed by a gunsmith. Additionally, you'd have to look long and hard to find a gunsmith that isn't familiar with the lever action lock-work. This is certainly more than we can say about the gritty as-issued, or modified triggers of the various SKS, AK, HK etc.
Finally, the lever action rifle is more compact in its 16 inch barrel configuration than most other rifles that might be chosen to fill the role. Equally important in this age of sensitive, touchie-feelie, felon huggers, it looks innocent. Don't dismiss this last attribute too easily. In our troubled and ignorant times, juries release violent murderers and rapists because they are not intelligent enough to discern the real facts from the spun fiction. Such things as a bayonet lug or a 30 round magazine from East Germany may confuse them enough to change your life's plans...drastically.
The standard .30-30 will suffice as issued for most duties. But enhancement may be undertaken to improve its performance. One area where improvements may be made is the sights. These weapons are issued with the old buckhorn type sights. They will do, but a rear ghost ring aperture sight with its accompanying front sight post will, in my opinion, do much better. These are available from various sources.
My .30-30 carbine has a modified 1903-A3 rear sight whose aperture has been opened up to ghost ring configuration. This rear sight, coupled with a ROBAR front sight at the end of the barrel, works very well indeed.
Also useful is a leather butt-cuff. This keeps extra ammunition on the weapon itself. This may compromise the concept of the light carbine, but if you have to grab the rifle and run out of your house at 0'dark 30 one night to repel the Visigoths, you'll be glad the extra ammo was there. I know that I was always glad to have a few extras!
Winchester still provides their lever action rifle in the "Wrangler" 16 inch barrel configuration. Marlin once made a similar model called the "Marauder". If your fighting lever gun is too long, it is a simple matter to have your excess barrel lopped off at the local gunsmithy (make certain it remains at least 16" long to keep "you know who" away). Such a conversion will greatly enhance handling, as well as keep the spirit of the compact weapon.
I thus modified an old Marlin 336 rifle that I rescued from the used gun rack at the local gun store. Total cost of the entire package was less than two hundred bucks (including a nice 4X Leupold scope, which I eventually mounted on another rifle!). It is short, light, hard hitting, rugged, cheap to replace if necessary...and well, it looks innocent. I obtained a supply of hunting grade PMC 150 grain .30-30 ammo and tested the combative utility of the carbine via a series of rifle exercises from Suarez Internationals Tactical Rifle school. The drills involve both close range reactive shooting as well as longer distances possible in combative encounters. For purposes of uniformity, all drills commenced from the Rhodesian ready position - that is gun held loosely at the belt level with the muzzle depressed to the offside.
Head shots were fired from the shoulder at 25 meters. Body shots were next at 50 meters, 75 meters, and 100 meters. Multiple targets were shot at 50 meters distance as well as up close at 7 meters. Close quarters targets were engaged both with snap shots from the shoulder, as well as from the Close Contact CQB position. Approximately 200 rounds were fired to get an overall impression of the lever action rifle in the anti-personnel role. Our findings were that there is very little that a realistic rifleman (acting as an individual - not a member of a military rifle squad) can expect from his weapon that the lever action cannot deliver.
If you are in need of an economic and effective rifle that offers as many advantages as a single rifleman can use within "defensive" or "urban" conflict distances, take a serious look at the lever action carbine. I think you'll like what you see.
Minor point here, but I think you meant Winchester 94s, not 92s. I think the 92 receiver was too short for anything longer than revolver cartridges.
You are correct... That should read Winchester 94...
At the moment there are only three rifles available that would be suitable as an allround rilfe. The OA 15 ( an ar 15 clone )
Just curious to know if the OA-15 is an Oberland Arms?
iceman0085
12-18-09, 04:42
Thx again for the answers.
@CLHC Yes, the OA 15 is made by Oberland Arms. I would be intersted in buying an Ar 15 clone, but the OA 15 ist the only AR Type rifle available here in austria, and I don't know if Oberland arms makes good AR type guns.
30-30 should be fine for HD ballistically, but understand that by choosing a lever action, reloads are going to be slow. Not sure how it compares to the 7600, but it should be considered.
I personally have used a 30-30 for deer hunting since I was 13, and it could be adapted to an HD role, if a magazine fed semi-auto rifle is out of the question.
its slower than a Semi Auto gun but with a tune up or some practice you can run a lever gun pretty fast and with great results at most Self Def distance. Look at some of those cowboy shooters I realize the gun is tuned but it is a practical gun
decodeddiesel
12-19-09, 17:24
Just curious how much the 30-30 "Leverevolution" improves the ballistics of the 30-30? Anyone have any experience using these cartridges with mule deer?
Personally, I think if using a lever action platform for home defense a lever action in .357 magnum might be a better alternative for the ranges encountered and the materials one would be shooting around/through.
Personally, I think if using a lever action platform for home defense a lever action in .357 magnum might be a better alternative for the ranges encountered and the materials one would be shooting around/through.
Same here. I would be concerned about overpenetration issues with the 30-30 cartridge in a home defense scenario. But otherwise it's a perfectly serviceable self defense rifle.
Picturing a little 16" barreled lever action with the Chuck Connor big loop lever and and a saddle ring.
NMBigfoot02
12-19-09, 19:49
Just curious how much the 30-30 "Leverevolution" improves the ballistics of the 30-30? Anyone have any experience using these cartridges with mule deer?
It flattens out the trajectory of the round a bit. I've used it on whitetail and feral hog here in GA with decent results.
NMBigfoot02
12-19-09, 19:52
its slower than a Semi Auto gun but with a tune up or some practice you can run a lever gun pretty fast and with great results at most Self Def distance. Look at some of those cowboy shooters I realize the gun is tuned but it is a practical gun
I agree it's doable, just not ideal.
I've considered tinkering with my own 30-30 to make it more practical, but I keep coming back to the fact that there are better options out there.
Still, it would be interesting to see the results you might get...
My PC defense guns are a lever action in 44mag and a lever action in 480 Ruger. Both hold 10 rounds. These are not my standard defense guns but I keep them and shoot them knowing that maybe some day I will need to be armed and have a less obvious and less threatening rifle than a black rifle on me. Most people are less afraid of lever actions and they would draw less attention.
They have their place.
Same here. I would be concerned about overpenetration issues with the 30-30 cartridge in a home defense scenario. But otherwise it's a perfectly serviceable self defense rifle.
The 125gr JHP Federal 30-30 loading, and the 150gr Winchester JHP, both penetrate no more than your average service pistol round in gelatin while making a much bigger hole.
In my experience the 30-30 feeds better in a lever gun than a straight walled pistol round. There's a reason why Winchester "pistol" lever gun rounds were tapered, like the 44-40.
iceman0085
12-20-09, 07:15
kmrtnsn Yes, buying lever action rifle in 357 mag instead of 30-30 win wouldn't be a bad idea, but for an allround rilfe the 30-30 win schould be the better choice. Which bullet weight in 30-30 would be a batter choice for sd ? an 125 grain or an 150 grain sp load?
My preference would tend to go with the lighter bullet.
LonghunterCO
12-20-09, 16:30
Picturing a little 16" barreled lever action with the Chuck Connor big loop lever and and a saddle ring.
If you look at the rifles of serious Cowboy action shooters you will notice a lack of "Big Loop" carbines. As a matter of fact you will see leather wraped standard loops being extremely common. The thought is that having the lever start to move as soon as your hand moves saves time, and there is less chance of having the weapon pushed off target as the hand goes down and strikes the lever (not so sure as I believe the latter at the ranges that the matches are shot at).
With that said, would I go to the leather wrap treatment to a HD carbine? Probably not, if I need to, I want my hand to be able to get in and out of there fast. Such as in the case of transfering to a secondary weapon (which could be an even greater chance of happening in with a limited capacity primary weapon system). Also in the case of a truck gun I would want to be able to get a gloved hand in there quickly-without issue.
Only if your hands are huge would I consider anything larger than the standard loop and then I would look to have a smith open it up and re-weld it slightly larger rather than the "Big Loop". YMMV.
Makes sense on the loop but I have wanted a big loop saddle carbine since I was six years old to go with a pair of colt Peacemakers! I have been badly influenced by the black and white TV shows of my youth. I also want a pair of M-38 jeeps with a Ma Dueces on pintles and a bunch of jerry cans in the back with M-1 carbines in scabbards to tool around the desert in with my friends.
I've always wondered about getting a lever gun chambered in one of the modern SA cartridges, like the Browning BLR in .243 or .308. Would a BLR in .308 be an equally viable choice, or is the more complex "rack and pinion" type of action on the BLR something to avoid? The BLR in .308 appeals to me because I already have other rifles and a stock of .308 ammo, plus of course, it can do more ballistically than the .30-30.
Pointy bullets + tube magazine = BAD.
...I also want a pair of M-38 jeeps with a Ma Dueces on pintles and a bunch of jerry cans in the back with M-1 carbines in scabbards to tool around the desert in with my friends...
;)
http://www.bigredhair.com/movies/ratpatrol.jpg
Pointy bullets + tube magazine = BAD.
The BLR uses a detachable 4rd. box mag, which is why they're chambered in .243, .308, .30-06, etc.
decodeddiesel
12-21-09, 09:33
I've always wondered about getting a lever gun chambered in one of the modern SA cartridges, like the Browning BLR in .243 or .308. Would a BLR in .308 be an equally viable choice, or is the more complex "rack and pinion" type of action on the BLR something to avoid? The BLR in .308 appeals to me because I already have other rifles and a stock of .308 ammo, plus of course, it can do more ballistically than the .30-30.
It is true that speaking from a ballistic standpoint a 30-30 will never come close to a .308, however honestly I don't see what a BLR would get you that a Remmy 700 SPS wouldn't.
iceman0085
12-21-09, 10:26
My preference would tend to go with the lighter bullet.
Thx for your answer. I am also the opineon that an lighter bullet would be a better choice for sd.
Pointy bullets + tube magazine = BAD.
Hence the development of the Hornady LeverEvolution round... pointy with a soft tip.
It is true that speaking from a ballistic standpoint a 30-30 will never come close to a .308, however honestly I don't see what a BLR would get you that a Remmy 700 SPS wouldn't.
Same thing you'd get with any other lever gun versus bolt action: faster firing. Admittedly the BLR's are lower cap, 4 rds versus 6 in your average 30-30. However, I'd assume with a rifle set up for HD, you'd have at least a few spare mags loaded up. Kind of hard to load up a "spare mag" on a tube-style setup, so in that sense, I think the BLR's mag approach is almost an advantage versus a traditional lever gun as well.
decodeddiesel
12-23-09, 23:19
Same thing you'd get with any other lever gun versus bolt action: faster firing. Admittedly the BLR's are lower cap, 4 rds versus 6 in your average 30-30. However, I'd assume with a rifle set up for HD, you'd have at least a few spare mags loaded up. Kind of hard to load up a "spare mag" on a tube-style setup, so in that sense, I think the BLR's mag approach is almost an advantage versus a traditional lever gun as well.
Ah, I wasn't making the connection that this was for a defensive role. I feel stupid. :o
Personally if left to a lever gun for self defense I would opt for a .44 magnum or .357 magnum rifle.
Before I had the funds for an AR-15 (or really, much of anything), I had an older Marlin 336, a family gun, so it was free. Free is good.
I added the XS Sight Systems scout rail and ghost ring sights to it, threw a butt cuff on it (adds 9 rounds) and shot the snot out of it. Never got a chance to buy quality optics for it, but it is ready to accept either a scout scope or a quality red dot.
Mine has the issue of if you tilt it to far left while working the lever, it does not feed the round, but otherwise works pretty good.
I would definitley try to take it to a class, if offered. Some of the trainers here in the US offer general rifle classes geared to lever action rifles, bolt action hunting rifles, etc- whatever is available in the home.
I wouldn't want to get shot from a 30 30 it would be nasty!!!
Utah is the only state that still has provisions for a Firing Squad form of exectution.
The Winchester Model 94 loaded with commercial Winchester 150 grain Silvertips are used.
Utah was the first to commence executions after Capital Punishment was suspended from 1972 to 1976.
In 1977, murder Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad.
In 1996, child molester and murder John Taylor was executed by firing squad.
Both were shot from a distance of 20-25 feet. A doctor uses a stethoscope to find the heart, then places a black circular patch over the condemed persons white jumpsuit. 5 rifleman fire. One unknown gun is loaded with a blank.
It is true that speaking from a ballistic standpoint a 30-30 will never come close to a .308, however honestly I don't see what a BLR would get you that a Remmy 700 SPS wouldn't.
No advantage in terms of ballistics or accuracy at all. The biggest advantage of the BLR ( IMO , anyway ) is that it's completely ambidex . That's why I have one in the locker , next to a left handed 700..
PA PATRIOT
04-02-10, 09:47
I would vote for a .44 Magnum using a good 180gr H/P bullet for personal defense if I was limited to a lever action PDW.
iceman0085
04-20-10, 07:16
I would vote for a .44 Magnum using a good 180gr H/P bullet for personal defense if I was limited to a lever action PDW.
Thx for your answer. Well, buying an lever action rifle in 44 mag would be a great idea, because 44 mag rounds would be a bit cheaper then the 30-30 rounds. Which 180 grain round would you recomend? I can get everythin from the main ammo compaies, like winchester, remington, federal, hornady.
PA PATRIOT
04-20-10, 11:45
Here's a link to DocGKR's .44 Magnum ammunition thread,
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19930
Personally I use a Winchester Trapper Model-94AE .44 magnum carbine
http://www.ozarkguns.com/Winchester/94%20Trapper/534094m.jpg
Caliber...............44 Rem. Mag
Length Overall....16"
Length Length.....34 1/4"
of Pull Drop........13 1/2"
at Comb Drop.....1 1/8"
at Heel Nom........1 7/8"
Weight............... 6 lbs.
Ammunition wise I personally use the Federal 180gr Jacketed Hollow Point as it has been absolutely effective on White tail deer to 180lbs. I also would use the Federal if the need arose for two legged personal defense as it is a fast expander and always gave me 14"+ inches of penetration in deer. I shied away from DocGKR's best overall general purpose .44 Magnum load for two legged personal defense which was the Hornady 300 gr XTP due to its 20+ inches of penetration which is a guaranteed pass-thur of a human torso and if used indoors then a few walls behind that. Now for outdoor two/four legged protection I would totally load up with the Hornady 300gr XTP without hesitation. All .44 magnum loads will most likely shot thur a human torso but it appears in at least in the 10+ deer I have shot with the Federal 180gr H/P that the total penetration may be less then the posted penetration for the Hornady 300gr XTP for a indoor environment. End story with any loading always be aware of your back stop when touching a round off indoors.
This opinion is made only from personal results with Whitetail deer and is not based on any controlled tests, your mileage may vary.
Fully concur--for primarily home use, I'd go with a 180 gr loading--probably the XTP.
PA PATRIOT
04-20-10, 14:21
DocGKR,
Would it be possible to post your test data for the Federal and XTP 180gr .44 magnum loadings?
Thank you.
iceman0085
04-21-10, 13:22
Thx again for the advise.
Same thing you'd get with any other lever gun versus bolt action: faster firing. Admittedly the BLR's are lower cap, 4 rds versus 6 in your average 30-30. However, I'd assume with a rifle set up for HD, you'd have at least a few spare mags loaded up. Kind of hard to load up a "spare mag" on a tube-style setup, so in that sense, I think the BLR's mag approach is almost an advantage versus a traditional lever gun as well.
Having to mess with 4 rd mags is the reason I'd take the tube mag. It's easy to top off the tube mag if needed.
PA PATRIOT
04-23-10, 09:04
I think I would also opt for a tube feed 30-30 or 44 Magnum and place a stock cartridge holder and a spare ammo wallet on the belt.
http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_228002_imageset_01?$main-Medium$
http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_228007_renderset_02?$main-Medium$
With the above one could carry 29 extra rounds of ammunition plus the full magazine capacity of the rifle.
Having to mess with 4 rd mags is the reason I'd take the tube mag. It's easy to top off the tube mag if needed
Good point, plus I've never heard of tube fed lever gun losing it's magazine, thus turning it into a lever action singleshot.....
Hello, I have the chance to get an used marlin 30-30 lever action rifle at very good price.
During the excitement of hunting situations it is fairly common for the hunter to short stroke the lever and jam his gun. During the severe adrenaline rush and stress of undergoing a violent attack, I would guess that the chance of short stroking and jamming the gun is even more of a danger.
Those are just my thoughts.
During the excitement of hunting situations it is fairly common for the hunter to short stroke the lever and jam his gun. During the severe adrenaline rush and stress of undergoing a violent attack, I would guess that the chance of short stroking and jamming the gun is even more of a danger.
Those are just my thoughts.
Even the best platform can be screwed up by someone somewhere.
I have been shooting lever action guns since 1955. I have been shooting SASS ( cowboy Action shooting) since 1988.
IMHO in a HD situtation A lever gun is faster to load then a bolt gun unless you run both dry.
Add a scope/reddot over the receiver of the bolt gun and it really slows down reloading a bolt gun unless it has a detachable mag.
With a lever gun you can fire 1-3 rds then top off the rifle without taking it out of action. A round would/could still be chambered. Just slip the rounds through the loading port into the mag tube.
A semi Auto is another factor especially with a large Cap Mag.
If you have a semi auto with a standard 5 rd mag the Semi's advantage goes away. fire 1-3 rds-- then to top it off you would have to remove the mag and load with the number of rds fired or change mags which would leave you with a mag that has 2-3 rds in it instead of the normal 5.
Stress level high, mag get dropped, lost or stepped on= UGLY
after saying all that! I do use a AR with a 30 Rd mag for part of my home defense plan
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