View Full Version : Stopping Active Shooters
http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=2C1C049141F18D9B
Notice especially starting to 4:08
rrpederson
12-20-09, 22:05
this is an interesting subject. i wonder what school board responses will be to these types of statistics. there has been argument for quite a while about allowing teachers to be armed. i think its a great idea. another idea would be to have more police hired and placed in schools, large campuses especially. the problem is that no one really knows where these incidences will occur. police departments are reactionary. i think it is well known that a reactionary stance on most things like this will end in casualties. another problem is the lack of knowledge of guns and tactics to use them by most school employees, gives them a more liberal response to this kind of subject. i imagine it will be a long time before the liberals realize that a sign that says, "gun-free zone" doesnt really deter anyone who is truly motivated enough to do harm to innocent people. just my .02$.
John_Wayne777
12-20-09, 22:07
A refreshing acknowledgment of reality.
4:14 "so called gun free zones" liberal mentality, enough said.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-20-09, 22:22
I think we talked about this a year or so ago. I used to live in Blue Ash, never knew how safe I was ;)
What they said makes perfect sense, too bad it seems that not a lot of people are willing to accept the facts.
I think we talked about this a year or so ago...snip
Could well have, I don't remember.
I saw it while snooping other videos around the site after viewing the one with the cop getting shot and thought it was interesting and worth sharing.
On another note:
That head wound of yours you used as an avatar ever heal up? :D ;)
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-20-09, 23:01
Could well have, I don't remember.
I saw it while snooping other videos around the site after viewing the one with the cop getting shot and thought it was interesting and worth sharing.
On another note:
That head wound of yours you used as an avatar ever heal up? :D ;)
I'm feeling much better...
That Franken-fruit that took a head shot and said "Ow" just struck me funny. Sometimes life feels like it is taking head shots at you and not getting the job done. The sad story behind the pic made me feel bad about using it though.
Yeah, was sad all in all.
IIRC, he killed his wife/girlfriend.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-21-09, 09:52
Right up this alley. LtCol. Grossman talking about this same subject.
http://www.policeone.com/policeonetv/videos/1688083-perspectives-lt-colonel-dave-grossman-on-school-violence-causes-response/
PJ
Awesome. I'll use that fire-related vs violence related deaths statistic.
Interesting that you should bring this up. We recently hosted an active killer demonstration at a local high school for educators, staff and students to show the realities and dynamics of an active shooter on campus:
http://cbs5.com/video/?id=59203@kpix.dayport.com
The hope is to raise awareness among the public and LE that these soft targets are high on the hit list and the importance of proper training for first responders (which includes the teachers and students) , not just SWAT.
What are peoples thoughts if the first responder is a non LEO, but is trained in firearms and tactics?!?!
I think it'd be a moment by moment call. After all, when the police do get there, all they're gonna be looking for is a guy with a gun. Imagine for a second that you went in and shot the bad guy. You're most likely going to be amp'd up like a firefly and dialed in to what is in front of you. Cops walk in, is the good guy gonna have the where with all to put that gun down or reholster before the police show up?
I don't think I'd go in to the fight, but perhaps start getting people away from where it's coming from and only draw if it came to me, but I don't have kids, if I'm anywhere with my wife, shes 99% of the time right by my side, so I wouldn't have a reason to run TO the gun fire. I'm not the hero type, but I'd damn sure tell people to move that-a-way (away from the BG) as the few situations where I've been in (fist fights breaking out) people tend to go towards the commotion. A shot ringing out would probably have a different effect to be sure, but there's gonna be those people who are either too curious or just don't have the "get the hell outta here" gene.
side note: I've had to draw my pistol before and luckily didn't have to fire (civilian) and I look back on it now and it still makes me shutter. Even one of the responding officers said, and I quote "You're one lucky son of a bitch! Good thing the caller (my brother called it in) told us you were armed and what you were wearing" I've changed my perspective on when I'll get involved in stuff since that occurrence, now, I'd just try to be somewhere else, real fast, or get people and myself away from the situation.
side note: I've had to draw my pistol before and luckily didn't have to fire (civilian) and I look back on it now and it still makes me shutter. Even one of the responding officers said, and I quote "You're one lucky son of a bitch! Good thing the caller (my brother called it in) told us you were armed and what you were wearing" I've changed my perspective on when I'll get involved in stuff since that occurrence, now, I'd just try to be somewhere else, real fast, or get people and myself away from the situation.
This is one thing I have thought a lot about. I really think it is critical for people to understand the possibility that they may be shot by police officers if they attempt to respond with a gun to a situation prior to police arrival. I also don't know if there are any cases in the US of this happening, but I am curious about the legal follow up that will come after such a response. If you were to respond with deadly force as a civilian in an active shooter situation, and you took a life, would you spend the next 15 years involved in criminal and civil court?
Anyone know about the legal stuff?
Also in closing I liked the video, and it is good to see that people are thinking in new ways regarding these situations. The one thing I found funny though was the statement that gun men use the signs as a way to pick their location? Has there ever been a case of an active school shooter shooting up a school they weren't affiliated with? I don't think it is the sign that makes these people choose their target.
What are peoples thoughts if the first responder is a non LEO, but is trained in firearms and tactics?!?!
The same as for off duty officers who might respond in similar circumstances. With no radio communications to warn responding uniforms. You're gonna need your head on a swivel if you elect to respond. You may save lots of lives by being on the scene and responding quickly, but you are putting yourself at significant risk of friendly fire in doing so.
Responding uniforms may not have a lot of information when they arrive. Most of these active shooter scenarios have a suspect that's also a member of the group they're shooting at. The responding officers will be covering everyone until they decide each person isn't involved in the shooting. You being in plain clothes and having a gun out will be considered a threat.
While you might be able to tell fleeing citizens to tell responding officers that there's an armed good guy inside trying to intervene, you have to expect that that message won't be relayed or won't do any good.
If you're headed toward an active shooter and hear sirens or boots running quickly towards you from behind, I'd holster that gun and get ready to prone out. You're not gonna have much time to avoid being shot.
This is something I've thought about a lot. Will I have time to call dispatch to advise them I'm on scene, responding and give my description? Or will it unfold so quickly that I just go? Will delaying long enough to call cost more people their lives? It's a tough decision to make. That decision might be made based on my proximity to the shooting. All I can do is consider the options beforehand and hope my OODA loop helps me make the right call.
John_Wayne777
12-21-09, 12:39
What are peoples thoughts if the first responder is a non LEO, but is trained in firearms and tactics?!?!
From the moment the first shot is fired figure a minimum of 2 to 4 minutes (unless one happens to be on scene as it's going down by accident) before the guys with badges show up. When they show up they are going to be looking for a guy with a gun.
Needless to say, if you're a guy with a gun you are going to be treated as a threat. You may get commands shouted at you (which might be difficult to hear) and if you fail to comply you'll be on the receiving end of police gunfire. They may not issue any commands at all. If a cop turns a corner and sees you pointing a gun in the direction of a person or people, they may just engage you.
Once the guys in uniform show up, it's their problem. They are in charge. Once you know they are on scene (hopefully discovered before you are being given orders at gunpoint) holster up and get the hell out. If it's a single officer or just a couple of officers an ordinary joe with some training could be a lot of help...but odds are that unless you happen to know one of the officers REALLY WELL (as in you've trained together) you aren't going to be seen as backup.
Think about it: You're responding to an active shooter call and there's a dude who runs up to you and says "Dudes! I've got a Glock! I can help you out!"
If a threat manifests in your immediate vicinity, do whatever you decide you can live with. There's plenty of documentation showing that the introduction of lethal force against the malevolent narcissist severely limits the body count. There are also documented instances of the good guy trying to do the right thing and getting shot up for doing it. I don't presume to tell others what they should be willing to risk their life for.
If you decide (or are forced to) engage the bad guy, realize that 911 has probably been called and cops on edge with drawn weapons are probably en route.
Don't overlook other things you can bring to the table besides your firearm. If you can get on the cell phone with 911 and feed them good intel, that's a valuable service. If you can competently render first aid to the injured, that's a valuable service. Both can save lives. As a bonus, if the cops encounter you while you're trying to patch up a GSW on someone who has been hit odds are you won't be perceived as a threat...assuming your gun is holstered.
Thanks for all the great responses. You all touched on my biggest concern...
As a parent this is one of your biggest fears while your child is at school. My thoughts were that if you just happened to be there at the time that SHTF, my first instinct would be to protect my child. I would not be trying to be any LEO's "back up" unless they needed and requested it. I am referring to a time when its only you there to protect children.
Now the question is how to do that and maintain your own safety from the arriving LEO.
I have already accepted my safety is in jeopardy from the scumbag and that is what I train for... My thoughts were to immediately dial 911, identify yourself and you're clothing and appearance while keeping an open line the entire time.. That said in a scenario like we are discussing that could very easily be lost in the panic to dispatch the appropriate authorities.
This is one of those scenarios that is difficult as a civilian to be prepared for. I just know in my heart that I would not be able to sit back and wait for help if my child or any other child for that matter, needed someone to protect their lives...
This is why I put it out there to get all the smart guys thoughts and opinions.;)
PRGGodfather
12-21-09, 13:13
It is absolutely refreshing to see an accurate and CURRENT piece on this topic. We will be using it as an introduction to train our officers -- especially our administrators who are locked into the old paradigm.
The diamond is fine for the search or rescue team, but it does NOT work for the contact team.
Hey, diddle diddle -- straight up the middle.
CarlosDJackal
12-21-09, 19:31
I can't believe that some agencies still consider this as "NEW TRAINING"? :eek:
We debunked the effectiveness and feasibility of the Diamond formation in the NTOA "Patrol Response to an Active Shooter Instructor" class back in mid-2005. The Diamond formation allows the pointmana to get exposed to fire from three directions without the fprotection of the flankers. But at least they are finally training.
Belmont31R
12-21-09, 19:37
I can't believe that some agencies still consider this as "NEW TRAINING"? :eek:
You'd be surprised at the number of departments who still dont have a rifle program, and only have a few shotguns back at the armory leaving their officers out there with only a pistol and a couple spare mags.
Why every officer in the US doesnt have a quality carbine, and the training to back it up is beyond me.
Patrick Aherne
12-21-09, 20:33
You'd be surprised at the number of departments who still dont have a rifle program, and only have a few shotguns back at the armory leaving their officers out there with only a pistol and a couple spare mags.
Why every officer in the US doesnt have a quality carbine, and the training to back it up is beyond me.
Who cares? We are talking active shooter training/response. Carbines are nice for the second, and every other officer who shows up. But, if I am on campus, or around the corner when the shooting starts, the correct answer is to get my fat a$$ near the shooter and put rounds on him as quick as possible. If I can get my carbine out of the rack, fine. If not, I better be a good pistol shot. This is about mindset, not equipment.
Although, places that refuse to buy carbines and other equipment usually have administrators that are lacking in the mindset area. My agency has a clear expectation that you will go in, fast, and end the problem.
Who cares? We are talking active shooter training/response. Carbines are nice for the second, and every other officer who shows up. But, if I am on campus, or around the corner when the shooting starts, the correct answer is to get my fat a$$ near the shooter and put rounds on him as quick as possible. If I can get my carbine out of the rack, fine. If not, I better be a good pistol shot. This is about mindset, not equipment.
Although, places that refuse to buy carbines and other equipment usually have administrators that are lacking in the mindset area. My agency has a clear expectation that you will go in, fast, and end the problem.
I agree, you want to get in fast to deal with the threat. But, IMO, I would want that carbine in case the shooter happens to be wearing body armor. Its entirely possible.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-22-09, 10:55
Did the Mumbia guys wear body armor? I would see where a lone gunman probably wouldn't have armor, but jihadists might because of better planning.
Did the Mumbia guys wear body armor? I would see where a lone gunman probably wouldn't have armor, but jihadists might because of better planning.
Of course not all shooters will have armor. That's why I put it this way, "in case the shooter happens to be wearing body armor."
My thinking is in an active shooter scenario, you just don't know how a BG is going to be equipped. That's why I'd rather have the carbine too.
It's best to try to stay out of the situation where LE is arriving when you're armed! South Carolina State Trooper Coates was gunned down by a drug dealer in 1992 with a .22 in his pocket. Trooper Coates was prior Mil and in excellent physical shape and a single .22 came through his armpit and ricocheted and pierced his heart. A few mins later other troopers were arriving on scene to find a couple of truck drivers coming to the scene while armed trying to help but the other troopers didn't know that. The murderer was hit 5 of 6 shots .357mag center of mass which unfortunately missed vital organs. If an officer asks you for help that's a different story but don't volunteer! To my brethren in LE: Always inform dispatch of your location when doing a stop or search in case you radio OFFICER NEEDS HELP at which point it hopefully rains police on your location.
You would be surprised how many schools have armed officers assigned as permanent school resource officers from the local police dept.. Response will be a lot faster than most people realize with officers already on campus. One school district near where I live has three officers assigned to each high school.
Tipy
John_Wayne777
12-22-09, 13:46
Virginia Tech had their own PD on site.
...the point being, here, that if an active shooter manifests unless the cops are by some chance in the immediate vicinity then the intended victims are basically on their own for at least 2-4 minutes...and in that time period a scumbag with a grudge against the world can rack up quite a body count.
School resource officers are great and may serve as a deterrent to some scumbags. The really committed ones will just make sure that the SRO is the first guy shot.
PRGGodfather
12-22-09, 15:52
You would be surprised how many schools have armed officers assigned as permanent school resource officers from the local police dept.. Response will be a lot faster than most people realize with officers already on campus. One school district near where I live has three officers assigned to each high school.
Tipy
Unfortunately, with this current economy (at least in the PRK), School Resource Officers get cut first by police departments when our budgets get slashed by local governments. There are only so many pencils you can stop ordering even with a 5% cut.
With that cut, we will also lose valuable intelligence about juvenile gangs and other young idiots. We used to see those kids every day, so things will get WAY out of hand before we realize cuts across all departments is stupid. DVD and music stores are going belly up because of the interweb, and we still have libraries?
When we were kids, we didn't need cops on campus. That has changed.
JohnWayne777 is absolutely correct -- you're on you're own until the cops get there, at an average of one dead kid every 15 seconds. You do the math. We have to do these dog and pony shows people we have lost our way.
Our teachers need to understand they need to take an active role as first responders, if they really want to save our kids. I don't care if that means they arm or armor themselves. Of course, that will go over like a fart in church for the overwhelmingly libtard demographic present in today's teachers. I tell you, Obama and his ilk will be coming for them. I have no doubt of that -- it's about WHEN, not IF. And most of the apple polishers are in denial about that, too.
It may sound like heresy, but personally, I would rather see parks and libraries close before losing cops, and my family uses the local parks. Still, as a nation, we have already forgotten the whole point of collective government was the common defense, and all else are luxuries.
Anyway, as to the original topic -- while Patrol Rifle and Active Killers are two concepts which are certainly and correctly intertwined -- the TWO most important words for this topic are:
1.) SPEED
2.) AGGRESSION
And sometimes, that means you don't have enough time to get to your rifle. The situation dictates the response, NOT our preferences. Heck, I would prefer we didn't need cops at all.
Be safe,
Alan
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-22-09, 16:14
Of course not all shooters will have armor. That's why I put it this way, "in case the shooter happens to be wearing body armor."
My thinking is in an active shooter scenario, you just don't know how a BG is going to be equipped. That's why I'd rather have the carbine too.
Body armor was an excellent point, and a carbine is the perfect counterpoint. :)
I'd love to bring a carbine, and a friend with a carbine..
I think it is just a matter of time before jihadis start shooting things up here. It is just low tech and low resource enough to fit their operational models. That adds in a third level; from the gunman in a hostage situation, to an active shooters, to active shooters with probable explosives.
PRGGodfather
12-22-09, 17:05
When the people who educate our children start thinking more like the passengers of Flight 93 -- we might stand a chance against the jihadis. The jihadis don't like resistance -- and simply, I'd bet my entire retirement they don't attack any schools in Utah. We have to give these folks permission to fight for lives -- even as most of them want someone ELSE to save the day.
The rest of the sheep? Well, one might suppose just getting some of them to say the word "killer" without pooping their pants is an incremental achievement. While these C-squares irritate to me to no end, they are the very folks we need to help -- because no else but cops are going to respond to this incidents.
We have spent too much time on the serve, and not enough on the protect. And we have too many overeducated assmonkeys who think their opinions are valid, even without a single firsthand fact or any life experience to support them.
The pussification of this country is our undoing.
snip...I'd love to bring a carbine, and a friend with a carbine...snip
Dude, Rules of a Gunfight, rule #2-
2. Preferably, have at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun... and a friend with a long gun.
Body armor was an excellent point, and a carbine is the perfect counterpoint. :)
I'd love to bring a carbine, and a friend with a carbine..
I think it is just a matter of time before jihadis start shooting things up here. It is just low tech and low resource enough to fit their operational models. That adds in a third level; from the gunman in a hostage situation, to an active shooters, to active shooters with probable explosives.
Hasan paved the way. Of course John Muhammad paved the way for effective sniping and so far they haven't copied that one.....yet. :(
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