View Full Version : 14.5" v 16"
I'm thinking about another upper. (Already have ... and love ... a BCM 16" middy)
How much difference in length is there between a BCM 14.5" with the permanent A2X flash hider and a 16" with a standard A2 flash hider?
What, if any, factors other than overall length should I consider with respect to the 14.5 v 16 issue?
Thanks.
The permanent flash hider has to be slightly longer than a screw on A2, maybe 1/2" more so the overall barrel length difference from 14.5 to 16 may only be 1".
Another thing to consider is carbine vs. midlength gas system. We know midlength works well on a 16" barrel but make sure it's done right on 14.5" if you choose that.
And there's often a weight difference between M4 profile and midlength, plus the issue of the M4/M203 cutout.
All in all, I'd say you want to be sure you know what you're after if straying from a 16" middy.
I'm thinking about another upper. (Already have ... and love ... a BCM 16" middy)
How much difference in length is there between a BCM 14.5" with the permanent A2X flash hider and a 16" with a standard A2 flash hider?
What, if any, factors other than overall length should I consider with respect to the 14.5 v 16 issue?
Thanks.
From BravoCompanyUSA.com
When mounted per BATF specifications for a permanent installation it will bring your 14.5” M4 barrel to a non-NFA length of over 16.1”.
I think it is a little over 1" difference between the 14.5 + A2X and a 16" with A2
I have both the 16" and 14.5" w/ perm attached flash suppressor. The balance and feel to the 14.5" is great enough to me to want a second one!!! If I go 16" in future it will be for a middy not a carbine.
ChicagoTex
12-22-09, 07:55
Since you already have a 16", why not go for the 14.5"? Variety is the spice of life!
I'm just about done building my first AR, a 16" Carbine; I'm planning to go the other way and have my next AR be an 18 or 20".
Thanks for your input gentlemen ... and "Hey" Brian.
I currently have a Stag 16" 2H on a Stag lower that I assembled, and a 16" BCM middy on an LMT lower, so I'm OK with 16" guns for the moment. I also have an older Bushmaster 20" HBAR A2, which currently serves only as an extra lower. I am contemplating rebuilding the BM lower with a better trigger and using it as a base for another gun.
I was just wondering if the feel of the 14.5" is sufficiently different to justify going that route. I know that the actual M4 is a 14.5".
I appreciate your comments.
Is it possible to attach a bayonet to an AR with a 14.5" barrel and permanent A2X flash hider? Or does the extra length of this flash hider stop you from attaching the bayonet?
Thanks for your input gentlemen ... and "Hey" Brian.
I currently have a Stag 16" 2H on a Stag lower that I assembled, and a 16" BCM middy on an LMT lower, so I'm OK with 16" guns for the moment. I also have an older Bushmaster 20" HBAR A2, which currently serves only as an extra lower. I am contemplating rebuilding the BM lower with a better trigger and using it as a base for another gun.
I was just wondering if the feel of the 14.5" is sufficiently different to justify going that route. I know that the actual M4 is a 14.5".
I appreciate your comments.
Ive recently shot both a friend's 16" carbine and my 14.5" carbine and I did notice a difference in feel. Not too significant but noticeable enough IMHO.
I suppose for a more significant difference, I would recommend an 11.5 if youre willing to go through the paper work.
Nice to see ya here Ron :)
I am leaning towards getting a 20" flat top for some reason. I just don't think going to the middy 16" is enough different than my 16" Carbine.
You will like the 14.5" Buddy - I really enjoy that length over my 16". Just balances very well.
While any length barrel that tickles our fancy is cool (outside of the Fed's control), I can't see the value in a 14.5" with a permanent flash hider compared to a 16".
The best AR15, in the non federally regulated barrel length, would be a 16" mid-length, if you want an SBR then pay the tax stamp and install a short barrel 10-12" I just do see any benefit in the 14.5" that has been made to be 16" anyway.
Balance is a non-issue as the rest of the carbine, stock, rail, optic, etc will determine balance.
Cam
Submariner
12-23-09, 08:35
The best AR15, in the non federally regulated barrel length, would be a 16" mid-length, if you want an SBR then pay the tax stamp and install a short barrel 10-12" I just do see any benefit in the 14.5" that has been made to be 16" anyway.
While true today, this was not the case during most of the AWB when some of the geezers here were accumulating parts and building carbines. The choices in quality barrels were Colt 14.5-inch barrels (cheapest), 16-inch Colt LW barrels, and 16-inch Colt M4-style barrels (most expensive.) Quality Parts (bushamster) weren't.
Shoot what you brung. Colt was the standard then and now, even though today there may be better choices.
I think Molon posted this on barfcom:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/145inchbarrelvs16inchbarrel01resize.jpg
I've been considering switching one of my carbines over to a 14.5 LW with a permed FH, but I'm not sure about cleaning the crown. Is this an issue? Is there an effective way of cleaning the crown with a permed FH?
I traditionally pull my FHs every year or two for a good cleaning. They don't get as crusty as a .22LR does, but they are still spooged up.
How do others deal with this? Soaking?
mil_dot556
12-24-09, 10:51
14.5 is definitely the better way to go, depending on how you build it, i love mine over both my 16"
14.5 is definitely the better way to go, depending on how you build it, i love mine over both my 16"
Why do you prefer it? Is it better balanced?
I guess I have a different way of looking at it....if they are both going to be 16" in total length then why not have the extra barrel rifling to help improve bullet performance? I can understand if it was a real 14.5" or 10.5" etc and registered SBR.
I have a DD M4 16" and a BCM 14.5" with permanent flash hider.
In retrospect, I should have gotten the 14.5" equipped with a Omega X 12, like I have on the 16" carbine, before I had the flash hider fixed.
Doing it now it would be a PITA so it uses a 7.0 Omega. The 14.5 just seems to balance a little bit nicer, but I miss the 12 o'clock light mount I get on my 16" with full rail and the little further out I can run my support hand.
buckshot1220
12-24-09, 23:34
14.5" w/ a Primary Weapons FSC556 perm. attached is the cats @$$!
Muzzle rise and flash are almost non-existent.
Failure2Stop
12-25-09, 07:01
I have a 14.5 with a welded and pinned FH solely as a clone to my M4 at work for use when I cannot use my work M4 and to try out new ideas/items thoroughly before migrating them to my work gun.
If I did not have this need I would not own a 14.5 AR.
I can tell the difference in handling and recoil between a 14.5" carbine gas gun and a 16" carbine gas gun. It isn't much, and it isn't nearly as much of a difference as between a 10.5" gun and a 20" rifle, but it is a difference.
In my humble opinion, the 16" middies are superb, and the only reason to deviate from them is for a 10.5/12" SBR for the ultimate in handiness, or go up to an SPR length for the utmost in precision.
I guess I have a different way of looking at it....if they are both going to be 16" in total length then why not have the extra barrel rifling to help improve bullet performance? I can understand if it was a real 14.5" or 10.5" etc and registered SBR.
Your opinion is valid but keep in mind the total length is not the same. An inch plus makes little difference in handling but it is a subtle difference. For me, I prefer 14.5's but don't like the perm FH. I've done one and may do another. I keep trying to talk myself out of another but do prefer the balance and handling of the slightly shorter tube. YMMV.
I am looking forward to seeing if there is any difference between the 14.5 and 16 i have a 16" DDM4 and am going with a 14.5 noveske barrel in my next carbine with a permed AAC blackout.
You will notice a difference. Whether you care about the difference is another matter.
I just placed my order for the BCM 14.5" with the A2X FH, along with a BCM BCG, Gunfighter CH and DD Omega 7, which is still on sale for $179.
Happy Birthday to me!
Happy Birthday! :D
Thanks. It's not for three weeks though.
One good thing about reaching my age is that by the time my birthday rolls around, I'll have forgotten what I bought myself and will be so surprised!
I just placed my order for the BCM 14.5" with the A2X FH, along with a BCM BCG, Gunfighter CH and DD Omega 7, which is still on sale for $179.
Happy Birthday to me!
Very nice. Enjoy. :)
I have a similar set up except I have a DD BCG and a YHM 5C2 FH.
tracker722
12-30-09, 17:06
I just placed my order for the BCM 14.5" with the A2X FH, along with a BCM BCG, Gunfighter CH and DD Omega 7, which is still on sale for $179.
Happy Birthday to me!
Who has them on sale? And when will the sale be over? Oh, Happy B'day.
Is there any significant difference in velocity between a 14.5" and 16" barrel?
Probably not, but I'm asking anyway.
First post here, this forum is grrrreat! :D
tracker722
12-30-09, 17:08
Depending on the chosen ammo, 75-125 F.P.S. And welcome.
QuietShootr
12-30-09, 17:22
I have a 16" MRP CQB midlength, and it seems a little long to me.
F2S, why do you prefer the 16" mid to the others?
Who has them on sale? And when will the sale be over? Oh, Happy B'day.
BCM had them for $179 through 12/31, but they sold out.
Depending on the chosen ammo, 75-125 F.P.S. And welcome.
And accuracy wise, I guess it doesn't make as huge a difference as 14.5" or 16" compared to 20".
buckshot1220
12-30-09, 20:07
I will second the notion that there is not much difference in accuracy between 14.5" and 16". I had a Bushy 14.5" that was grouping .75" @100yds with off the shelf Win. Powerpoints. Most 16" guns do the same or worse.
tracker722
12-30-09, 20:31
I will second the notion that there is not much difference in accuracy between 14.5" and 16". I had a Bushy 14.5" that was grouping .75" @100yds with off the shelf Win. Powerpoints. Most 16" guns do the same or worse.
I agree. I don't shoot that much past 100 yd.s with my rifles, mostly because of department regs when it comes to long shots, but sometimes shoot longer just to show trainees it is possible.
My 14.5" BCM arrived yesterday. I've only had a chance so far to install the DD Omega 7.0, along with the BCG and Gunfighter CH, and put it on my LMT lower. This one seems to fit better on the LMT than my 16" BCM middy, which will probably go back on my older Bushmaster lower ... along with a Geiselle SSA when I get some extra cash. I'm also thinking of an Aimpoint T1 for the 14.5".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/ronssmith/Guns/20100107001a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/ronssmith/Guns/20100107003a.jpg
buckshot1220
01-07-10, 09:55
I run a similar setup with an Aimpoint M4. I have a T1 mounted on an AK. Both are excellent. Eventually I'd like to get the GG&G T1 mount with integral flip lens covers so I can ditch the stupid bikini covers that come from Aimpoint. Does anyone here know why Aimpoint didn't add a little real estate on the T1 to be able to accept flip open covers?
Failure2Stop
01-07-10, 10:24
F2S, why do you prefer the 16" mid to the others?
They shoot softer, are not as hard on parts, and the give more rail space for mounting stuff, even if a fixed FSB is retained.
People all over the internet will throw their hands up, lamenting the lack of evidence on the point about parts wear. The facts are these
-most run fine with a standard CAR buffer (lower BCG velocity)
-most do not need extractor upgrades
-there are less issues with the gas system
-the extraction process is not as violent as with a CAR
These factors line up and speak for themselves as to which system is going to put more stress and demand the perfect operation of certain parts.
If you take two identically setup guns, one with a CAR gas system and one with a mid-length system, both with standard parts designed for reliability, the middie will have less bounce.
So I can retain a fixed FSB (which I prefer on a fighting gun), get a grip that I prefer even with lights mounted, have a reduced recoil impulse, and it is easier to get to run and maintain.
ChicagoTex
01-07-10, 10:56
I honestly don't know how anyone with a rudimentary understanding of physics can argue that a carbine gas system is superior to a midlength (or rifle length, when possible) for all the reasons F2S has highlighted.
The only reason my current AR has a carbine system on it was because I got a good deal in trade.
The only other possible reason I can think of in favor of carbine-length systems over midlengths is there's currently no Magpul MOE Handguard for midlengths, but I'm 110% sure that's not gonna be true 6 months from now anyway.
Okay, was having a talk with a friend about ARs. Ill get to the point, why do guys like 14.5" (and shorter) uppers with long flash hiders? Whats the REAL ROOT reason? Thats like getting a V8 and unpluging 2 spark plugs! So I was wondering this, pros and cons of it?
Cons:
1. you loose velocity
2. its just as long as a carbine
3. looks horrible having a mutated flash hider
Pros:
1. cost? Its only $200 more to have the real thing
Ive heard some one say its a ballance thing, I think thats a bunch of crap personally. Would some one please weigh a 16" car upper, a 14.5" car upper and a 14.5" car uppwith the long flash hider? Whats the weight difference in each? Very nominal at best. By that logic why not just get a 16" barrel ant hen have a smith bore out the barrel for the first 3"? That would not make any sense right, so why does a 14.5" with a long flash hider make sense? Even if you state does not allow SBRs, why take a hit on muzzle velocity? :confused:
First...
A 16" AR is not really 16" once you add a flash hider. If you add the same flash hider to a 16" barrel as you add to a 14.5" to make it 16.1" you've just created a 17.6" barrel.
Second...
What is it you think you're doing with that extra velocity?
Third...
Why so wound up about what someone else is doing with their rifle?
My go to rifle runs a 14.5" Barrel for two reasons:
1.) Shorter and more maneuverable in tight quarters (I live in Baltimore)
2.) My ACOG/DOC's BDC is calibrated for 14.5" barrels.
Yeah, the root of your question seems to be about nothing besides angst that people have configurations other than your own.
Do you have a viable metric on what constitutes a muzzle device that is "too long, grrrrrrrrrr!"
I just yesterday got my BCM 14.5" w/A2X and installed a DD Omega 7.0. I will weigh and measure the difference between it and my BCM middy, which has the DD Omega 9.0 on it.
Inasmuch as I already have a BCM middy and a Stag 2H, I wanted to get the 14.5 to have a carbine that is most closely like an M4 as is permitted under both Michigan and Federal law.
I do realize that there is a small loss of velocity between the 14.5" and the 16", but I don't really think it is going to be a significant factor for me.
It all depends on what you are going to use your carbine/toy/showpiece for... My opinion is while the 16" middy is the "best" setup from a reliability standpoint, I am sure that the 14.5" performance envelope far exceeds what most civilian users will require. I have had several 14.5" and 16" carbines and I definitely feel a swing weight difference between the two and far prefer a 14.5". I can also feel a huge difference between my Duty 870 and Benelli M4.
Do I like a perm attached FH? Not really, but I haven't had any problems yet either. I just occasionally use a scraper/qtip to clean off the crown and all is well.
Dennis.
First...
A 16" AR is not really 16" once you add a flash hider. If you add the same flash hider to a 16" barrel as you add to a 14.5" to make it 16.1" you've just created a 17.6" barrel.
Second...
What is it you think you're doing with that extra velocity?
Third...
Why so wound up about what someone else is doing with their rifle?
1. True but just get the stamp for it. Right? Even in current times you can save up for the stamp.
2. The extra velocity is nominal I know but its still there and wasted..
3. Im wound up cause of a coversation with a friend over it and the fact it really sevreves nothing but the loose 2" on your OAL and a bit of bullet velocity.
Its not a big deal to me but what is THE reason for it? To save 2"?
My go to rifle runs a 14.5" Barrel for two reasons:
1.) Shorter and more maneuverable in tight quarters (I live in Baltimore)
2.) My ACOG/DOC's BDC is calibrated for 14.5" barrels.
Do you have a long flash hider to make it legal?
So in other words you're not actually wanting any reasons why, and don't actually have any reasons why not, you just want to win an argument with your friend about your forgone conclusions?
Gotcha.
So in other words you're not actually wanting any reasons why, and don't actually have any reasons why not, you just want to win an argument with your friend about your forgone conclusions?
Gotcha.
Finally, you understnad! :D No, Im not trying to be a dick. I just think if your going to have that much barrel it should be rifled. Why hinder your round any more than necessary? And if you want some thing short dont go half way, get a stamp and go short. I was just wondering what the thought process is in buying an SBR upper then making long on purpose. And nobody has told me yet, other than you saying its slightly shorter than a 16" barrel. I guess for me it would be hard to justify loss of FPS to loose less than 2" in length. Now my 11.5" upper lost a lot of FPS but I also lost much more OAL than 2". I guess its a trade some like and its all about priorities? Plus I just think it looks goofy...:p
buckshot1220
01-07-10, 16:35
Finally, you understnad! :D No, Im not trying to be a dick. I just think if your going to have that much barrel it should be rifled. Why hinder your round any more than necessary? And if you want some thing short dont go half way, get a stamp and go short. I was just wondering what the thought process is in buying an SBR upper then making long on purpose. And nobody has told me yet, other than you saying its slightly shorter than a 16" barrel. I guess for me it would be hard to justify loss of FPS to loose less than 2" in length. Now my 11.5" upper lost a lot of FPS but I also lost much more OAL than 2". I guess its a trade some like and its all about priorities? Plus I just think it looks goofy...:p
Again, a 14.5" barrel and a good muzzle device (I run PWS FSC556) comes to a tad over 16". The same muzzle device on a 16" barrel yields a OAL of just over 17.5". The difference of 1.5" is enough for some of us to warrant using a 14.5" barrel. You've decided it isn't worth it, that is your opinion.
As far as spending the extra $200 for a tax stamp, many states including mine do not recognize and do not allow Class 3 weapons so that is not an option.
Likewise, Michigan does not permit SBRs.
Okay, so the only reason is to loose 1.5"? I can agree if Im in a state that wont allow the 2nd amendment, every inch counts. Would you collapse the stock all the way as well? Or use an entry tpe stock? Any thougths about removing the flash hider on a 16" and using a thread prtocetor? Im not judgin just making conversation...
spamsammich
01-07-10, 17:20
...
As far as spending the extra $200 for a tax stamp, many states including mine do not recognize and do not allow Class 3 weapons so that is not an option.
This is the ONLY reason I run 14.5" barrels that are pinned, it is the shortest legal length for me to own in this f'd up state without resorting to a pistol lower. I do not recommend my setup to others unless they are sure they will not want to change their configuration or they have the skill, tools or budget to remove the flash hider. Having owned a 16" middy and 14.5" pinned rifles, the inch difference in OAL length didn't really matter to me, I could change the OAL of the rifle by switching stocks. And with the shit I throw on the rails, the rifles tend to be front heavy no matter what config I choose. If I were to build another upper, I'd forget all about the 14.5" barrels. I'm done experimenting with them.
vicious_cb
01-07-10, 17:29
Okay, so the only reason is to loose 1.5"? I can agree if Im in a state that wont allow the 2nd amendment, every inch counts. Would you collapse the stock all the way as well? Or use an entry tpe stock? Any thougths about removing the flash hider on a 16" and using a thread prtocetor? Im not judgin just making conversation...
I think you're missing something huge here. A 16" CAR is wayy over gassed. Having a 14.5" is much easier on the parts than a 16" CAR. If I were going to get a 16" I would have to get a midlength which moves the gas block out further and needing a longer rail to cover the gas tube making it more front heavy than a 14.5" CAR.
buckshot1220
01-07-10, 18:10
I think you're missing something huge here. A 16" CAR is wayy over gassed. Having a 14.5" is much easier on the parts than a 16" CAR. If I were going to get a 16" I would have to get a midlength which moves the gas block out further and needing a longer rail to cover the gas tube making it more front heavy than a 14.5" CAR.
This is good info. A 16" w/ carbine gas does put more strain on the internals than both a 14.5" car and 16" mid in theory. How much? I don't know, but regardless it is wear and tear and more violent extraction, again in theory.
As far as my particular setup is concerned, I am in a ban state so threaded barrels and collapsing stocks are a no-no. To get around it without having a neutered (plain) muzzle, I have to pin/weld regardless of OAL barrel length. I have a 14.5" BCM upper on a Bushy lower w/ an entry stock (stubby) and 1" KAC butt stock extension/QD sling mount. Using the stubby stock with 1" extension gives me the perfect length for my body type even with gear on. The gun balances perfectly. I also used a DD Omega 7, Blue Force Gear Vickers sling, Aimpoint M4 and Magpul MBUS.
ETA: I did not comment on the gas system earlier regarding extraction and parts wear because I thought that was well known...apparently I was wrong:-)
I am in a ban state so threaded barrels and collapsing stocks are a no-no.
Out of curiosity, what state is this?
buckshot1220
01-08-10, 17:18
Out of curiosity, what state is this?
NY and NJ are like this. They basically copy-cat the Fed. AWB from '94. I think CT and MA may have similar restrictions, someone care to chime in?
Kalifornia is the worst. Requiring weird style stocks to delete the pistol grip or requiring a "bullet button" type mag release. Google "California compliant AR" and you'll see.
Yea, I live in CA and the one thing we can have is a threaded barrel. My go-to rifle is an early Springfield M1A, but I had to replace the flash hider with a compensator.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed on the case of McDonald v. City of Chicago . Hopefully, if the U.S. Supreme court sides with us, and if the states are then ordered to comply with the 2nd amendment, we'll see several lawsuits filed in CA (and other anti-gun states) that attack these anti-gun laws.
Even in states that allow SBR's there is more to consider than just paying for the stamp.
I live in MT and work in AZ. I drive to work. Much of my drive is through some very remote areas. I like to have a long gun with me in addition to a handgun. It is legal in my home state and all the states I drive through to have a loaded rifle in my vehicle.
When I am on the road my SBR stays in the safe because I don't want to hassle with the 5320.20. The pinned 14.5" is my throw it in the car and go gun.
buckshot1220
01-09-10, 11:32
Yea, I live in CA and the one thing we can have is a threaded barrel. My go-to rifle is an early Springfield M1A, but I had to replace the flash hider with a compensator.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed on the case of McDonald v. City of Chicago . Hopefully, if the U.S. Supreme court sides with us, and if the states are then ordered to comply with the 2nd amendment, we'll see several lawsuits filed in CA (and other anti-gun states) that attack these anti-gun laws.
Do you also have an AR? Just wondering if you prefer the Frankenstein stock or the bullet button? Got any pics?
Also patiently awaiting the Chicago case.
Even in states that allow SBR's there is more to consider than just paying for the stamp.
I live in MT and work in AZ. I drive to work. Much of my drive is through some very remote areas. I like to have a long gun with me in addition to a handgun. It is legal in my home state and all the states I drive through to have a loaded rifle in my vehicle.
When I am on the road my SBR stays in the safe because I don't want to hassle with the 5320.20. The pinned 14.5" is my throw it in the car and go gun.
So you did it to have a shorter rifle as well? Whats your reason for the pinned 14.5"? I can agree on the SBR but what made you get the 14.5 over a 16?
Buckshot, not yet. However, I plan to build an M4 clone (likely a BCM with permanently attached flash hider). I do have a couple off-list AKs (an Arsenal SAM7 carbine and an Arsenal/Saiga SGL20) with the Solar Tactical device installed. ;) There are definitely ways around the BS anti-gun laws. But in CA the best option is probably the M1A because I can use my 20-round mags with impunity.
BTW, I apologize if it appears I am taking this thread off topic.
I just measured my carbines ...
The 16" Middy (w/CTR stock) is 32.0"
The 14.5" with A2X and standard LMT stock is 30.875"
I didn't bother weighing the difference, as I didn't want to remove the ACOG from the Middy.
So you did it to have a shorter rifle as well? Whats your reason for the pinned 14.5"? I can agree on the SBR but what made you get the 14.5 over a 16?
A couple of reasons, probably not particularly relevant to the "which is better?" argument.
First of all, as previously mentioned, the 16" carbine gas system is overgassed. I'm kind of obsessive about reliability and I figured that the 14.5" was the one that the engineers at Colt and the Army spent the time getting right. The 16.5" was a creation of our Federal regulatory system. In the real world, the difference in reliability of the two systems is probably negligible, but it satisfies my obsessions and helps me sleep better.
Second, it's nothing fancy: 6921 upper on a LMT lower. No rails, just the M4 handguards and detachable carry handle. If I were to build a FF rail upper, it would probably be mid-gas 16".
Third, it's what I had laying around. The barrel was a leftover from the days when I had a Model 614. Before the Fiancee and the mortgage when I had the time and money to own and shoot machine guns.:mad:
ChicagoTex
01-09-10, 14:05
I'm kind of obsessive about reliability and I figured that the 14.5" was the one that the engineers at Colt and the Army spent the time getting right.
The Carbine length gas system was originally designed for the Colt Commando (10" barrel), with upgrades it can run acceptably in 14.5 and 16" barrels but make no mistake, both are overgassed.
the biggest issue with the 14.5" barrel is the permanent fixture of the muzzle device.
The extra 30+ yards of fragmentation seems a good argument for the 16"(regardless of gas system) to me.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s277/jermwarfare_2007/image033.jpg
I know some guys that are overgassed, you think adding a permanent muzzle device would help? :D
Theres some good reason to run 14.5 inchers I guess....;)
The extra 30+ yards of fragmentation seems a good argument for the 16"(regardless of gas system) to me.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s277/jermwarfare_2007/image033.jpg
That is the same reason I generally prefer 14.5" weapons to the shorter ones.
Hendricks433
01-10-10, 22:17
the biggest issue with the 14.5" barrel is the permanent fixture of the muzzle device.
If you solder it, it can be undone in minutes.
If you solder it, it can be undone in minutes.
ATF makes you use a very high temp silver solder to be legal......
Hendricks433
01-11-10, 07:26
ATF makes you use a very high temp silver solder to be legal......
Theres a few threads that show you how to do it with no discoloration. Its 1100 Silver Solder, if you use Mapp Gas its fine.
While true today, this was not the case during most of the AWB when some of the geezers here were accumulating parts and building carbines. The choices in quality barrels were Colt 14.5-inch barrels (cheapest), 16-inch Colt LW barrels, and 16-inch Colt M4-style barrels (most expensive.) Quality Parts (bushamster) weren't.
Shoot what you brung. Colt was the standard then and now, even though today there may be better choices.
I think Molon posted this on barfcom:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/145inchbarrelvs16inchbarrel01resize.jpg
I'm glad you posted this picture. The idea sounds so great on paper, but a side by side comparison I can barely tell the difference. I wanted to get my 16" barrel cut down on my Colt 6940 to 14.5". When you add the extra length and 'permanently' attach FS.. it just seems like entirely too much trouble/effort/money spent to shorten to what equals basically an inch.
@Daekwan, until you attach a long comp/fh to a std 16" barrel. Then it starts to look funny with 7" handguards. Lots of barrel sticking out there. I agree that it is not that much of a diff, unless the person is really into the looks of their rig. That photo would look a tad different if both barrels had the Vortex attached.
@Daekwan, until you attach a long comp/fh to a std 16" barrel. Then it starts to look funny with 7" handguards. Lots of barrel sticking out there. I agree that it is not that much of a diff, unless the person is really into the looks of their rig. That photo would look a tad different if both barrels had the Vortex attached.
Not sure if you ever seen the 6940 in person.. but its pretty much just a 6920 with a monolithic uninterrupted 7" rail to begin with. The rail stops before the gas block & FSB so I know what you mean by alot of barrel sticking out there.
I just thought the difference would be more noticeable if I cut it down to a 14.5" (I think its actually 14.7" with the A2 flash hider, not the Vortex)
Also since the 6940 doesnt have a barrel wrench available yet, I cant just swap barrels. I'd actually have to send the whole upper off to this company named ADCO to cut the barrel down, while it is still in the upper and then permanently attach a FH. :(
The Carbine length gas system was originally designed for the Colt Commando (10" barrel), with upgrades it can run acceptably in 14.5 and 16" barrels but make no mistake, both are overgassed.
Yeah, I thought that it was just a Commando gas system with a barrel made long enough to accommodate a bayonet.
Theres a few threads that show you how to do it with no discoloration. Its 1100 Silver Solder, if you use Mapp Gas its fine.
I know how to do it, my post was in response to the one above mine...
The extra 30+ yards of fragmentation seems a good argument for the 16"(regardless of gas system) to me.
Part of the reason I decided (when I build one) I'm going with the Mid Length.
- Easier recoil impulse, promoting faster follow ups (Not that realistically the carbine is/was that bad for me, but I figure, hell I'll take a fraction of a second.)
- Increased parts longevity, cheaper to service, and hopefully also meaning inherently more reliable.
- I see myself realistically shooting at targets somewhere between 20-150 yards, very slim chance 200, faster velocity, which means slightly less bullet drop and influence by wind (I realize we're talking a marginal difference, but still a difference) with the longer barrel and greater fragmentation range.
- Also more grip real estate to move around with longer hand guards to better manipulate the rifle in awkward positions, I don't plan on putting a rail on the Mid Length I want to build, but I'd have more rail if I wanted it.
All of those benefits, or at least what appear to me as performance benefits outweigh the 1.5-2'' less overall length offered by the carbine barrels.
But at the end of the day, we all have some reason to pick the format we like.
mil_dot556
01-12-10, 02:03
I'm thinking about another upper. (Already have ... and love ... a BCM 16" middy)
How much difference in length is there between a BCM 14.5" with the permanent A2X flash hider and a 16" with a standard A2 flash hider?
What, if any, factors other than overall length should I consider with respect to the 14.5 v 16 issue?
Thanks.
I never thought it was a big deal for an inch of difference, but when you actually hold a 14.5 pinned, it's a huge difference to me. I personally would rather operate with a 16" barrel, as long as it's light, but 14.5 is something you need to have at least one of.
Part of the reason I decided (when I build one) I'm going with the Mid Length.
- Easier recoil impulse, promoting faster follow ups (Not that realistically the carbine is/was that bad for me, but I figure, hell I'll take a fraction of a second.)
- Increased parts longevity, cheaper to service, and hopefully also meaning inherently more reliable.
- I see myself realistically shooting at targets somewhere between 20-150 yards, very slim chance 200, faster velocity, which means slightly less bullet drop and influence by wind (I realize we're talking a marginal difference, but still a difference) with the longer barrel and greater fragmentation range.
- Also more grip real estate to move around with longer hand guards to better manipulate the rifle in awkward positions, I don't plan on putting a rail on the Mid Length I want to build, but I'd have more rail if I wanted it.
All of those benefits, or at least what appear to me as performance benefits outweigh the 1.5-2'' less overall length offered by the carbine barrels.
But at the end of the day, we all have some reason to pick the format we like.
I'm sure there are advantages to a 16" mid-length over a 16" carbine.I stuck with the 16" carbine on my last build for a few reasons...
100% parts commonality with the LMT(+spare parts) I already had.
Parts availability.
I didn't want to add artificial weight to the rear of a mid-length just to get a balance I liked.A carbine feels a little front heavy to me.I assume a mid-length(w/rails) would be more so.
I bought during "the madness" and I grabbed the first quality upper(16" BCM) I could get without a huge panic tax.:)
As for the 14.5"-v-16" carbines...I don't feel the pinned FH and loss in performance is worth the inch or so of mobility.I'll save that for the SBR I hope to get together(sans the pinned FH).
Here's one of my new 14.5" with my 16" Middy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/ronssmith/Guns/20100112002a.jpg
Here's one of my new 14.5" with my 16" Middy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/ronssmith/Guns/20100112002a.jpg
Which do you prefer?
Which do you prefer?
I'm not sure yet. It's tough to make a choice between two superlative weapons. I haven't had the M4 a week yet, and have only put 100 rounds through it so far. The Middy is a bit smoother shooting, while the M4 is slightly shorter and a little better balanced. I think the M4 is probably the better choice for home defense, and am thinking of getting an Aimpoint T-1 for it.
Hendricks433
01-12-10, 10:50
Here's one of my new 14.5" with my 16" Middy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/ronssmith/Guns/20100112002a.jpg
Id like to see a 14.5" vs 16" with same flash hider and same rail.
groovinpickle
01-12-10, 11:08
I'm not sure yet. It's tough to make a choice between two superlative weapons. I haven't had the M4 a week yet, and have only put 100 rounds through it so far. The Middy is a bit smoother shooting, while the M4 is slightly shorter and a little better balanced. I think the M4 is probably the better choice for home defense, and am thinking of getting an Aimpoint T-1 for it.
It's a great setup. Consider an H-1, but it's "only" a $50-ish difference, I think. Definitely get the LaRue LT-660 (tall) mount unless you're one of the goofballs who likes absolute co-witness. For S&G, try turning off the Micro and leaving the rear sight down. You can probably make some pretty accurate hits at 25 yards and in by using the dot-less Micro as a rear sight.
They are both beautiful weapons. ;)
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