View Full Version : Snowball fights & cops with guns.
Don't bring a snowball to a gunfight ;)
VIDEO: http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/19/reasontv-exclusive-footage-dc
ARTICLE w/pictures: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2009/12/19/did-d-c-cops-overreact-to-snowball-fight-14th-and-u/
Yea saw that one this morning.
I saw a little bit about this but haven't heard if the Detective will face disciplinary action?
parishioner
12-21-09, 14:08
The guy probably shouldn't have pulled a gun just for getting his car hit with snow. But then they stupidly hit the cop in the face with a snowball, enticing him more, and acted like they were the ones being abused. It seems "herd behavior" took over the crowd and they overreacted with all the profanity and what not. When that happens, things usually get blown out of proportion.
Heavy Metal
12-21-09, 14:14
Pepper Spray would have been a more apropriate response.
Still, I have heard a bit of a back-story and these Kids apparently make a habit of being asses and this is not the first time something similar has happened.
The Cop overreacted but I kind of understand why given the context.
Business_Casual
12-21-09, 14:17
Yeah, stupid citizens should do what they're told! :rolleyes:
Actually, because he has arrest powers and a gun, he has a duty to be even more restrained in his actions, not less.
M_P
The guy probably shouldn't have pulled a gun just for getting his car hit with snow.
He absolutely should NOT have pulled a gun for hitting his car with a snowball.
He was setting himself up for a pissing match and he got one.
A couple of the hipsters actually tried to make the argument "What's the difference between throwing snowballs at cars and the snow falling from the sky..." WOW! I guess when it comes to rational thought, logic/common sense this crowd of freedom fighting snowball throwers lose big.
You all know I am as pro police as anyone. But this guy is an idiot. I have also read the Dept. is defending his actions by saying he did nothing inappropriate. Of course if this had been a civilian he would be in jail waiting for his court date.
kaiservontexas
12-21-09, 16:22
Should have ignored it, just a snowball and a car, pulling a gun pure genius, they should not have thrown a snowball at him, and supposedly this was a twitter gathering for a snowball fight, they should have taken that to a park to begin with . . . I see fault with everybody in that.
Should have ignored it, just a snowball and a car, pulling a gun pure genius, they should not have thrown a snowball at him, and supposedly this was a twitter gathering for a snowball fight, they should have taken that to a park to begin with . . . I see fault with everybody in that.
Yeah that is true. But it was people having a lot of fun. Sure it should have moved, but at no point was his drawing of his firearm justified unless there is something big we have not heard about.
The news just said that he is on Desk duty.
Yeah that is true. But it was people having a lot of fun. Sure it should have moved, but at no point was his drawing of his firearm justified unless there is something big we have not heard about.
The news just said that he is on Desk duty.
Was his car specifically targeted or a random "oh shit" and hitting it was an accident? Not that either one justifies pulling a firearm. It's also an unmarked car, a personal Hummer maybe, so I highly doubt it was an attempt to piss off a cop initially. Joe Citizen would be behind bars right now and especially so in Washington D.C.
I guess D.C. will ban snowballs next. For a city that isn't supposed to have handguns in it, why would you get out of your Mummer with weapon drawn? He should have flashed his badge then asked who is trying to call an accident by throwing snow balls. I figure that if he had used a different approach and established his authority right away the outcome would have been different. Luckily he isn't a Peace Officer in the Southern most states. Can you imagine what would have happened if he drew down in TX, FL, KY, or LA. His show of force would have probably been met by a show of arms from the citizens. That is why I say he should have shown some discretion and restraint.
He should have flashed his badge then asked who is trying to call an accident by throwing snow balls
I completely agree with you on this one. That would have been the smartest thing to do. I usually support cops, but in this situation he completely abused his authority. Lack of judgement apparent with both parties involved.
SWATcop556
12-21-09, 22:01
Actually, because he has arrest powers and a gun, he has a duty to be even more restrained in his actions, not less.
Agreed. He over-reacted and should be punished just like any other citizen that pulls a gun on a snowball thrower.
that whole story has bad news written all over it...
I guess D.C. will ban snowballs next. For a city that isn't supposed to have handguns in it, why would you get out of your Mummer with weapon drawn? He should have flashed his badge then asked who is trying to call an accident by throwing snow balls. I figure that if he had used a different approach and established his authority right away the outcome would have been different. Luckily he isn't a Peace Officer in the Southern most states. Can you imagine what would have happened if he drew down in TX, FL, KY, or LA. His show of force would have probably been met by a show of arms from the citizens. That is why I say he should have shown some discretion and restraint.
I agree whole heartedly I don't know a single police officer on duty or off duty who would pull a weopon out with out clearly identifying himself beyond all reasonable doubt that he is a police officer after watching the video it appears he just hops out of his car asking who threw the snowball while holding his side arm WTF but the basic storyline is lighten the F@#k up its a snowball fight!!!
What a douche...
He doesn't deserve to wear a badge.
Lets throw snowballs at the black guys car, then throw them at the actual black guy and expect the good outcomes to rain down upon us.
Are those shotgun taser rounds in wide circulation yet?
LEO having a bad day.......and making it worse. He had an opportunity for some good PR and instead will generate alot of negative PR. There may be more to the story, but from what has been posted and shown, drawing his firearm was way out of line.
Yeah, stupid citizens should do what they're told! :rolleyes:
Actually, because he has arrest powers and a gun, he has a duty to be even more restrained in his actions, not less.
M_P
DON'T BE DUMB! Yet another typical show of force from someone who has an ego and is acting out on emotions vs rational thinking.
GLAD to see this made it on video so he is forced to account for his actions.
Lets throw snowballs at the black guys car, then throw them at the actual black guy and expect the good outcomes to rain down upon us.
Are those shotgun taser rounds in wide circulation yet?
hahahhaa...see Im not allowed to say "certain" words in a derogatory manner, but I am however allowed to laugh.
KS Trekker
12-23-09, 06:15
The guy probably shouldn't have pulled a gun just for getting his car hit with snow. But then they stupidly hit the cop in the face with a snowball, enticing him more, and acted like they were the ones being abused. It seems "herd behavior" took over the crowd and they overreacted with all the profanity and what not. When that happens, things usually get blown out of proportion.
While I can't justify the Detective's actions, I cannot believe the juvenile behavior of the crowd. Why would you throw a snowball at someone with a gun in their hand? Maybe the officer got out of his vehicle with the intention of dispersing the crowd and getting some uniform officers down there. I would have a hard time keeping my composure after getting pelted with snowballs. It looks like the crowd targeted him because he was driving a Hummer. I own a Hummer and I've had to put up with vandalism and getting the finger because lefty leaf-lickers love to focus all their negative energy on this one type of vehicle. Perhaps they would have left him alone if he was in a Prius. :rolleyes: Of course, he would have needed the crowd's help to get going again in the snow. Love it or hate it, my Hummer is prepared for anything Mother Nature can throw at me.
Why did he even stop... :confused:
The way I read it just prior to that a marked unit had gotten stuck in the intersection, the crowd pushed it out, and went on with their snowball fight.
Then this idiot shows up...
People are really sad. The finger can be pointed at everyone in that video. The "mob" mentality didn't help matters. Det. Baylor's actions didn't de-escalate the situation and those assholes that were spewing vulgarity didn't help matters. What's with the woman asking him to spell his name? As though she couldn't contact the station later and ask for him. Wouldn't be hard to find him after she described the "situation". I deal with large crowds everyday. Det. Baylor, I can only assume, heard and felt a "thump" against his vehicle and then identified what appeared to be an "unruly crowd" at the intersection. I'm not justifying his actions to exit his vehicle gun in hand but maybe the crowd could have reacted differently instead of instigating his reaction.
I live in Canada where snowballs are common in the winter. I've rolled up snowballs that were as hard as large rocks -- ice balls as a matter of fact -- due to our temperatures and dryness. Because the crowd identified him as a cop, they took advantage of this and prodded him to react inappropriately. I don't think for one second that had that man been "a stranger" with a gun, these idiots would've continued that way.
It's really unfortunate, especially during this time of the year. Det. Baylor will be re-signed to desk duty because he made the wrong judgement and his holiday season will not be so joyous. Sometimes we need to think about our actions and how they affect those around us.
I wish you all a happy holiday season, I pray for all our troops serving abroad and I thank the Lord that men and women in the law enforcement role are keeping me and family safe during this festive season.
Littlelebowski
12-23-09, 14:26
I don't believe the crowd "targeted" him as he drove past in a Hummer. Do you have any corroborating evidence?
I own a Hummer and I've had to put up with vandalism and getting the finger because lefty leaf-lickers love to focus all their negative energy on this one type of vehicle. Perhaps they would have left him alone if he was in a Prius. :rolleyes: Of course, he would have needed the crowd's help to get going again in the snow. Love it or hate it, my Hummer is prepared for anything Mother Nature can throw at me.
Including the occasional snowball!!!!:D:p
People are really sad. The finger can be pointed at everyone in that video. The "mob" mentality didn't help matters. Det. Baylor's actions didn't de-escalate the situation and those assholes that were spewing vulgarity didn't help matters. What's with the woman asking him to spell his name? As though she couldn't contact the station later and ask for him. Wouldn't be hard to find him after she described the "situation". I deal with large crowds everyday. Det. Baylor, I can only assume, heard and felt a "thump" against his vehicle and then identified what appeared to be an "unruly crowd" at the intersection. I'm not justifying his actions to exit his vehicle gun in hand but maybe the crowd could have reacted differently instead of instigating his reaction.
I live in Canada where snowballs are common in the winter. I've rolled up snowballs that were as hard as large rocks -- ice balls as a matter of fact -- due to our temperatures and dryness. Because the crowd identified him as a cop, they took advantage of this and prodded him to react inappropriately. I don't think for one second that had that man been "a stranger" with a gun, these idiots would've continued that way.
It's really unfortunate, especially during this time of the year. Det. Baylor will be re-signed to desk duty because he made the wrong judgement and his holiday season will not be so joyous. Sometimes we need to think about our actions and how they affect those around us.
I wish you all a happy holiday season, I pray for all our troops serving abroad and I thank the Lord that men and women in the law enforcement role are keeping me and family safe during this festive season.
We must've watched a different video. 1st I'd say the asshole is the guy pulling out a gun due to a snowball hitting his car which isn't even shown in the video and is an assumption.
2nd This "unruly crowd" helped a stuck police officer get his cruiser back in action a few minutes before this, as seen on our local news. Not to mention "what appeared to be an unruly crowd" is such bullshit beat around the bush cover your ass speak it's not even funny.
3rd You say he exited the vehicle with gun in hand and then you go on to say "Because the crowd identified him as a cop, they took advantage of this and prodded him to react inappropriately.". So, which is it? His inappropriate reaction was to get out of his vehicle while brandishing a weapon! Something any other citizen would be arrested for. How are they to identify him as a cop in an unmarked Hummer and wearing street clothes?
4th The last bolded print is the entire situation wrapped up into one neat little line "Det. Baylor will be re-signed to desk duty because he made the wrong judgement".
Before you think this is anti-LEO or any other such nonsense, it isn't. It's called being held accountable for your actions no matter what your job or uniform is.
Why did he even stop... :confused:
The way I read it just prior to that a marked unit had gotten stuck in the intersection, the crowd pushed it out, and went on with their snowball fight.
Then this idiot shows up...
This was shown on our local news with the snowball crowd cheering & celebrating helping a marked cruiser and officer get his car unstuck and back on the beat.
Before you think this is anti-LEO or any other such nonsense, it isn't. It's called being held accountable for your actions no matter what your job or uniform is.
AMEN!
Before you think this is anti-LEO or any other such nonsense, it isn't. It's called being held accountable for your actions no matter what your job or uniform is.
Exactly.
I guess at some point the society decided agitators are blameless when the good guys make PR-mistakes.
I guess at some point the society decided agitators are blameless when the good guys make PR-mistakes.
Pulling a gun on a crowd for throwing snowballs is just a PR mistake?
From what I saw, if he was a regular guy, it "might" have fallen under unconstitutional brandishing laws, just because the gun was taken out of its holster in public. He was probably within his rights as a LEO. It would make no difference to me if he wasn't. The videos I saw didn't feature him even pointing the firearm at the crowd.
It's nothing more than a PR bungle. If he was smarter and a bit more patient he could have had them up on charges of disorderly conduct and assault. The headlines would have read "multiple arrests in snowball fight after officer is assaulted". Maybe they could write him a thank you letter for his impatience.
From what I saw, if he was a regular guy, it "might" have fallen under unconstitutional brandishing laws, just because the gun was taken out of its holster in public. He was probably within his rights as a LEO. It would make no difference to me if he wasn't. The videos I saw didn't feature him even pointing the firearm at the crowd.
It's nothing more than a PR bungle. If he was smarter and a bit more patient he could have had them up on charges of disorderly conduct and assault. The headlines would have read "multiple arrests in snowball fight after officer is assaulted". Maybe they could write him a thank you letter for his impatience.
Might have? In DC? LOL...that's funny.
I guess at some point the society decided agitators are blameless when the good guys make PR-mistakes.
Just because a guy has a badge in his wallet doesn't necessarily mean he's a "good guy". Seems like more than a "PR-mistake" to me.
The finger may have be pointed at everyone involved, but that a police officer is supposed to be a professional and should be able to keep their cool and know how to react appropriately in situations like this. Bad day or not, this guy acted completely out of line.
Might have? In DC? LOL...that's funny.
Depending on who you are and who you know, they have a big history of selective enforcement, just like Chicago. Everybody remembers the crackhead major they had.
Just because a guy has a badge in his wallet doesn't necessarily mean he's a "good guy". Seems like more than a "PR-mistake" to me.
He very well might not be a good guy, but people who talk to cops the way those degenerates did on video are confirmed lowlifes. For whatever reason he wasn't able to muster enough command presence to control the situation, the uniformed cop was a bit better, but those punks were unbelievably out of control. Because of the lack of respect for law enforcement you find these quasi-mogadishu situations as typical in cities now. A few months ago a Bay Area cop was forced to hunker down with an M4 against a sizable mob after a traffic stop went south in a bad neighborhood.
He very well might not be a good guy, but people who talk to cops the way those degenerates did on video are confirmed lowlifes. For whatever reason he wasn't able to muster enough command presence to control the situation, the uniformed cop was a bit better, but those punks were unbelievably out of control. Because of the lack of respect for law enforcement you find these quasi-mogadishu situations as typical in cities now. A few months ago a Bay Area cop was forced to hunker down with an M4 against a sizable mob after a traffic stop went south in a bad neighborhood.
How were they supposed to know he was a cop?!?! Your arguments are so full of holes you'd think a bunch of people were throwing snowballs at them. ;) No one was "unbelievably out of control" and if you think so you either have no experience with these types of situation or you're delusional.
The reason uniformed officers showed up was due to the snowball fight attendees calling 911 and reporting a man with a gun. Do yourself a favor and watch the video, read the reports and then reread this thread and maybe then you'll come up with a more plausible explanation as to what happened.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Snow balls are very dangerous, they did cause the first death in our revolution. At least that was about the second thought I had when I heard about it.
Business_Casual
12-24-09, 08:24
Snow balls are very dangerous, they did cause the first death in our revolution. At least that was about the second thought I had when I heard about it.
My how Boston has changed since then.
M_P
The news story summed up why they were there having this snowball fight. It seems a guy on Twitter put this together by asking people to meet at this intersection at this time and have a snowball fight. It was on ABC news but the gun part wasn't thank heavens.
The guy is flying a desk now while a complete investigation is under way. As a LEO I was embarrassed at his over the top reaction. He needs at least a thirty day suspension for that stunt.
I mean seriously it aint no big deal. I've had snowballs thrown at my unit so what. I got out and tossed some back and enjoyed myself. They thought it was funny that I joined in. A much better outcome than pulling a gun!
As for unruly crowds, aren't the police trained to deal with such?? Who told Detective Baylor to lower himself to their childish level and engage these morons? I'm sure that isn't in any manual handed out by any P.D on the subject of crowd control.
Detective Baylor either a. should have drove on or b. called a marked unit to come and tell the crowd to move on to a park so they dont hit anymore vehicles with snowballs.
I just think Det. Baylor was a little pissed ( as I would have been ) cause his nice car got hit with a snowball. He shoulda just got outta the car and cracked the nearest person over the head with his nightstick and got back in his car and drove away!!
Yes we trained to deal with crowds. Unruly ones anyway but these guys were just having a little fun and this officer makes us all look bad by his behavior as evidenced by your reply.
We do protect and serve and yes I know who I work for. Many times I've put my life on the line to protect the public as have most officers. It's a choice we all made when we took the oath.
We aren't stormtroopers but public servants. Please don't lump us all into the same category as this guy.
Yes we trained to deal with crowds. Unruly ones anyway but these guys were just having a little fun and this officer makes us all look bad by his behavior as evidenced by your reply.
We do protect and serve and yes I know who I work for. Many times I've put my life on the line to protect the public as have most officers. It's a choice we all made when we took the oath.
We aren't stormtroopers but public servants. Please don't lump us all into the same category as this guy.
Gunner, no offense meant my friend. That is why I edited my first comment. There are bad apples in every bunch. My Dad is a twenty yr NYPD veteran. Many of my friends are NYPD. I do appreciate the job you guys do for the public. This is a classic example of no common sense on both parts. That being said, like I was taught in the Marine Corps, Leo's are held to a higher standard. Nitwits like this guy Baylor coupled with nitwits on the siedwalk caused this idiotic, avoidable situation.
Thanks BiggLee I appreciate it. No offense taken my friend. We all have bad apples for sure and I've seen my share. As an FTO I've washed out a few prior to finishing there probationary period. Thank heavens they never made it out on their own!
Not only are we held to a higher standard but so are our Military folks. We all just have to try a bit harder.
I just couldn't believe what I was seeing when this guy pulled his gun---he needs to be fired IMHO and he sure needs a psych evaluation! I played the video over several times and I could tell some of the responding officers sure didn't want to be there in that mess. They actually looked embarrassed by it.
GlockCop525
12-24-09, 16:55
Might have? In DC? LOL...that's funny.
Just because a guy has a badge in his wallet doesn't necessarily mean he's a "good guy". Seems like more than a "PR-mistake" to me.
you are correct. policemen are expected to be trained professionals in conjunction to having specific training in "resolving or de-escalating a situation with as little force required in a way that is not going to cause what most use of force policies call "public shock and awe". Not a cop in DC, but for the most part Use of Force policies are semi-universal in their wording/objectives. One bad choice from maybe one situationally unprofessional officer and now he makes all of us look like idiots. wouldnt fire the guy...but maybe a handwritten copy of the depts. use of force policy 1,000 times would be in order in conjunction with a public apology.
Gunner, you hit the nail on the head about the uniformed guys responding. I felt bad for them cause you could tell by the looks on their faces that they were probably like " jeez, wth is going on here?"
Oh yea and on top of that you know internal affairs will interview them for hours about what they saw, heard, did etc. It won't be fun for them at all.
UPDATE: DC Chief slams Officer http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/12/21/us/AP-US-Storm-Snowball-Fight-Officer.html?_r=3&scp=2&sq=gun&st=nyt
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The city's police chief slammed a veteran detective Monday for pulling a gun during a mass snowball fight that had been advertised on Twitter.
Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier said she watched video clips from the confrontation and has no doubt the off-duty detective pulled his gun after snowballs hit his personal car during Saturday's record snowfall.
''Let me be very clear in stating that I believe the actions of the officer were totally inappropriate!'' Lanier said in a statement after the videos made the rounds on YouTube. ''In no way should he have handled the situation in this manner.''
Lanier said the detective, whom she did not identify, did not deny the accusations. He is on desk duty until an investigation is complete.
Hundreds of people gathered for the snowball fight on a major street after organizers used social networks such as Twitter to advertise it.
One video posted on YouTube showed a man holding what appears to be a gun in the snowy street. Another video shows the same man telling people he is ''Detective Baylor'' and he pulled his gun because he was hit by snowballs.
At one point, the crowd begins to chant: ''Don't bring a gun to a snowball fight!''
Assistant Police Chief Peter Newsham told reporters Monday that the detective's badge and weapon have been withdrawn. He said the detective has more than 25 years of experience and a good reputation.
Newsham said the internal affairs division wants to complete its investigation as quickly as possible.
''We have to put the whole incident into context,'' he said.
There could be a recommendation to discipline the detective, which could range from a reprimand to removal, he said.
Police have at least two videos of the incident, and Newsham said there could be more as the footage shows other people with cell phones and cameras. Police are working to obtain any additional material and will continue to speak to witnesses. He asked people to contact police if they have more footage.
There were no arrests, he said.
The videos also show a uniformed police officer holding his gun by his side before holstering it. Police said in a statement Sunday that he was responding to a call about an armed man, acted appropriately and did not point his weapon at anyone.
Newsham praised the work of other officers who arrived at the scene and de-escalated the situation.
He called the incident ''very disappointing.''
''It does bring a negative light'' on the department, he said, and detracts from the work of hundreds of officers who helped people in the snow and directed traffic.
He should be arrested and if he were Joe Citizen he'd be behind bars on multiple counts.
I wouldn't charge him with anything. The reason being is the punishment he will get will exceed what he would get if convicted. He should be fired that's for certain.
If he truly has 25 years in good standing on the force then I feel he should be disciplined in some way but back on full duty. Everyone can screw up and while this was pretty out there I don't feel it wipes out 25 years of solid service.
Of course he could also be a complete jackass and they are just trying to make him sound better. If that is the case then fire him.
A lot of times that 25 years in good standing just means he never got in serious trouble before. You never know when a statement like that is made if it's true or not.
If that was really true then I could live with 30 days off without pay.
after 25 years, take his badge give him his pension and send him on his way, serious error in judgement in a safe situation...........
decodeddiesel
12-30-09, 15:21
He should be arrested and if he were Joe Citizen he'd be behind bars on multiple counts.
Damn skippy.
If I were a LEO I would be more pissed about this whole thing than I am being a lowly civilian as this whole incident does nothing more than perpetuate the "power hungry" cop with a gun and a badge myth.
If he truly has 25 years in good standing on the force then I feel he should be disciplined in some way but back on full duty. Everyone can screw up and while this was pretty out there I don't feel it wipes out 25 years of solid service.
Of course he could also be a complete jackass and they are just trying to make him sound better. If that is the case then fire him.
I'm not anti-LEO and I'm not picking a fight here but if Joe Citizen did the same thing and he had 25 years of being a good employee & citizen it wouldn't mean **** all. Just because your job is to enforce the law doesn't mean you're above it, although it does happen quite often, it doesn't make it right.
I think he should suffer the same repercussions anyone else would... I know some commenting are LEOs and I'm wondering how they would react to a common person on the street in that same situation, not to mention in DC.
Too bad the cop didn't really let those punks know who the boss was. At the very least he could have beat a few down with his ASP baton. I was really hoping he would have shot a few of them. Civilians have got to be put in their place.
parishioner
12-30-09, 17:45
Too bad the cop didn't really let those punks know who the boss was. At the very least he could have beat a few down with his ASP baton. I was really hoping he would have shot a few of them. Civilians have got to be put in their place.
:confused:
:confused:
I believe it's sarcasm.
parishioner
12-30-09, 17:56
I believe it's sarcasm.
I was hoping for that, but even then...
decodeddiesel
12-30-09, 17:59
Here's the million dollar question, and I hate to bring it up but I can't help but think about it...
What would everyone be saying if the cop were white, and the snow ball throwers were black?
Business_Casual
12-30-09, 18:07
I was hoping for that, but even then...
What? Now the 1st Amendment is bad too?
I think he's making the point that the police are to "serve and protect" not abuse their authority and ability to carry a handgun in a city where non-LE citizens are prohibited from owning, let alone carrying, a weapon. Yes, I know they lost the court case but it is still almost impossible to get a gun there.
M_P
parishioner
12-30-09, 18:35
What? Now the 1st Amendment is bad too?
I think he's making the point that the police are to "serve and protect" not abuse their authority and ability to carry a handgun in a city where non-LE citizens are prohibited from owning, let alone carrying, a weapon. Yes, I know they lost the court case but it is still almost impossible to get a gun there.
M_P
I just didn't understand the sarcasm in this context. I'm sorry.
Now I don't understand how you inferred that I condemn the 1st amendment as well as some other unnamed amendment to go along with it.
Here's the million dollar question, and I hate to bring it up but I can't help but think about it...
What would everyone be saying if the cop were white, and the snow ball throwers were black?
i think we all know....:(
Yes, sarcasm.
Ever see Blade Runner? Remember when the Chief said 'If your not Cop your Little People'?
In my experience, that is the SOP for depts in DC, NYC, NJ, and NOLA. This was just one well publicized event that is an excellent reflection of the culture found in many police depts.
I agree it seems like LEO are to ready to resort to excessive force in a situation. I don't know if they're overworked and understaffed, but you almost every night on the news there is some story or another that has the police using excessive force. Either multiple officers beating up a civilian, killing them with a taser, or shooting them. If this sounds anti LEO I'm sorry, but it's not. My older bro is a state trooper in Utah, my best friend is a Detective in San Antonio and my other close friend is with the FBI in N.Y.
I've had this conversation with all of them at different times and have been told stories that they have personally witnessed of fellow officers using excessive force or causing a situation to escalate and then respond with deadly force.
when I was in college about 10yrs ago we had a party at my friends apartment in SA and girl got to drunk and passed out on the grass outside. Me and a couple of friends went outside to look for her and saw some guy dragging her by her feet towards his apartment. I confronted him and told him she was a friend of ours and to let her go...he refused. I grabbed her by her arms and proceeded to pull her away from him..he rushed me and I cold cocked him in the jaw and knocked him out. I picked her up and we brought her back inside. The next morning we all leaving the apartment and I was going to my car when 5 or 6 SAPD cars showed up out of the blue and the officers crowded around me!! apparently the guy I knocked out was a cop and he called his buddies that worked the morning shift. They were pushing me around and calling me names trying to get me to strike one of them. I put my hands in my back pockets palm out a just stood there while a couple of them got in my face and told me that I was pussy and to try to knock them out. I'm 6'3 275lbs with a background in MMA and wrestling I could have easily created a ruckus. I told them that I had no idea the guy was an officer and had he just identified himself the incident would never have happened......things were starting to get out of hand until one of my friends called my best friend, who was a patrolman with SAPD at the time and he called them on the radio and told them who I was and that I wasn't some guy looking to rough up cops. It was a unfortunate situation that arose from a lack of communication on the offices part.
We got it settled after that and the guy I hit is now a good friend of mine as well.
I got a glimpse of what it would be like if the cops single you out and want to make an example out of you and have no doubt that I would have ended up in the ICU had my friends not been there to bear witness and refused to leave when the police told them to get the **** out there or they were all going to jail......every since then I have been somewhat wary of the guy's that there to protect and to serve.....IMO.
On the flip side I have been in some situation where I've been given a break by the police when I could have really gotten into trouble....also had a nice officer drive me all the way home and wake up my girlfriend when someone slipped something like rohipnal into my drink one night. He pulled my wallet my phone was dead so he couldn't find anyone in my phone to call. He drove 10miles to my house and helped my girlfriend. apparently I made it to my car and tried to call her, but was incoherant and the phone died while she was trying to find out where I was. Let me premise this with the fact that I hardly ever drink and this was a company celebration party when I was with Citigroup, we had all just passed our series 7 license exams....we had been studying for them for 3mos. and if we didn't pass we would mpt have been able to keep our jobs.
So like I said there are some really good guy's out there in LEO community, but the a-holes seem to make the news!
And now we have a similar incident with Joe Citizen, A TOY GUN, and a few kids throwing snowballs. Guess who went to jail for a TOY GUN and who's still chillin' on desk duty for using a real one?!?! My point is that the hypocritical way in which the initial incident was dealt with is shameful. NOTICE: They also don't point out the fact that it was a TOY GUN in the title of the article which is complete bullshit as well.
http://www.beavertonvalleytimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126230536546797500
Man arrested for pointing gun at snowball-throwing boys
Pamplin Media Group, Dec 31, 2009 (24 Reader comments)
A 22-year-old Beaverton man who police say responded Tuesday to a few snowballs thrown his way by pointing a gun at two boys was arrested Thursday morning at his house.
Beaverton police said Alexander Guissepe Lamme was charged with four counts of menacing, a Class A misdemeanor. Lamme is scheduled to appear in Washington County Circuit Court on Feb. 2.
Police said Lamme pointed a realistic-looking toy gun at the children near Southwest Scholls Ferry Road and 135th Avenue at about 4:25 p.m. Tuesday, a couple of hours after snow began to fall and snarl evening traffic.
Witnesses told police that several cars had been stuck on Scholls Ferry Road because of the snow and ice. Two brothers, ages 15 and 18, who lived in the area, went outside and helped drivers push their cars off the road. Once finished, the boys began to throw snowballs.
When the boys’ mother went outside, she and her sons were confronted by a man with a gun. One of the snowballs had apparently hit this man’s car.
Witnesses said the man had jumped out of his Land Rover while stopped at the eastbound traffic light at Scholls Ferry Road and 135th Avenue, carrying a black handgun, pointed it at the boys and yelling, “You think its funny throwing snowballs at traffic?”
The man yelled, “It’s not funny anymore!” and got back into his Land Rover and left. When police arrived, witnesses give them the car’s license plate number.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/theola-labbe-debose/dc-snowball-cop-will-stay-on-t.html
D.C. Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier said that the detective who pulled his weapon during a Northwest snowball fight in December violated department policy but will remain on the force.
Speaking with WTOP reporter Mark Segraves Thursday during the monthly "Ask the Chief" radio segment, Lanier said the actions of Detective Michael Baylor "violated some type of police department protocol." She said city personnel laws limited her in describing what policies were violated. On Baylor staying on the force, Lanier said, "I don't believe this is a termination case."
Heavy snowfall in December prompted a D.C. resident to organize a mass snowball fight at 14th and U streets NW. When some revelers threw a snowball at Baylor's car, he confronted them with a drawn weapon, prompting other police to respond to reports of a man with a gun. The incident was captured on video and reverberated widely on the Web, prompting Lanier and other officials to speak out condemning Baylor's actions.
Baylor, who was put on desk duty after the incident, remains on "non-contact status," Lanier said.
You can listen to the full interview here.
I agree it seems like LEO are to ready to resort to excessive force in a situation. I don't know if they're overworked and understaffed, but you almost every night on the news there is some story or another that has the police using excessive force. Either multiple officers beating up a civilian, killing them with a taser, or shooting them. If this sounds anti LEO I'm sorry, but it's not. My older bro is a state trooper in Utah, my best friend is a Detective in San Antonio and my other close friend is with the FBI in N.Y.
I've had this conversation with all of them at different times and have been told stories that they have personally witnessed of fellow officers using excessive force or causing a situation to escalate and then respond with deadly force.
when I was in college about 10yrs ago we had a party at my friends apartment in SA and girl got to drunk and passed out on the grass outside. Me and a couple of friends went outside to look for her and saw some guy dragging her by her feet towards his apartment. I confronted him and told him she was a friend of ours and to let her go...he refused. I grabbed her by her arms and proceeded to pull her away from him..he rushed me and I cold cocked him in the jaw and knocked him out. I picked her up and we brought her back inside. The next morning we all leaving the apartment and I was going to my car when 5 or 6 SAPD cars showed up out of the blue and the officers crowded around me!! apparently the guy I knocked out was a cop and he called his buddies that worked the morning shift. They were pushing me around and calling me names trying to get me to strike one of them. I put my hands in my back pockets palm out a just stood there while a couple of them got in my face and told me that I was pussy and to try to knock them out. I'm 6'3 275lbs with a background in MMA and wrestling I could have easily created a ruckus. I told them that I had no idea the guy was an officer and had he just identified himself the incident would never have happened......things were starting to get out of hand until one of my friends called my best friend, who was a patrolman with SAPD at the time and he called them on the radio and told them who I was and that I wasn't some guy looking to rough up cops. It was a unfortunate situation that arose from a lack of communication on the offices part.
We got it settled after that and the guy I hit is now a good friend of mine as well.
I got a glimpse of what it would be like if the cops single you out and want to make an example out of you and have no doubt that I would have ended up in the ICU had my friends not been there to bear witness and refused to leave when the police told them to get the **** out there or they were all going to jail......every since then I have been somewhat wary of the guy's that there to protect and to serve.....IMO.
On the flip side I have been in some situation where I've been given a break by the police when I could have really gotten into trouble....also had a nice officer drive me all the way home and wake up my girlfriend when someone slipped something like rohipnal into my drink one night. He pulled my wallet my phone was dead so he couldn't find anyone in my phone to call. He drove 10miles to my house and helped my girlfriend. apparently I made it to my car and tried to call her, but was incoherant and the phone died while she was trying to find out where I was. Let me premise this with the fact that I hardly ever drink and this was a company celebration party when I was with Citigroup, we had all just passed our series 7 license exams....we had been studying for them for 3mos. and if we didn't pass we would mpt have been able to keep our jobs.
So like I said there are some really good guy's out there in LEO community, but the a-holes seem to make the news!
Excessive force is usually claimed by persons that have no idea what the use of force entails or how it's applied.
When has a Taser directly killed someone? Did I miss it on the news?
And now we have a similar incident with Joe Citizen, A TOY GUN, and a few kids throwing snowballs. Guess who went to jail for a TOY GUN and who's still chillin' on desk duty for using a real one?!?! My point is that the hypocritical way in which the initial incident was dealt with is shameful. NOTICE: They also don't point out the fact that it was a TOY GUN in the title of the article which is complete bullshit as well.
http://www.beavertonvalleytimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=126230536546797500
He pointed it at the other parties, as opposed to simply drawing it. That's the difference, as far as I can tell.
Bobert0989
03-09-10, 03:59
.... Luckily he isn't a Peace Officer in the Southern most states. Can you imagine what would have happened if he drew down in TX, FL, KY, or LA. His show of force would have probably been met by a show of arms from the citizens. That is why I say he should have shown some discretion and restraint.
Very true... Here in Richmond, if someone got out of their HUMMER in the middle of the sreet and drew a firearm, we simpletons would probably assume he/she were a mob member or something...lol. No telling how many people would've drawn down on him if that were to happen around this area. And THAT could escalate rapidly into a LOSE-LOSE situation.
~Bobby
Bobert0989
03-09-10, 04:06
When has a Taser directly killed someone? Did I miss it on the news?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/18/taser.death/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/nyregion/25tased.html?em
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,493228,00.html
Just a few related incidents. Although most documented cases you find aren't the direct result of the taser, but what the reaction to the taser is, ie: falling through a window.
John_Wayne777
03-09-10, 07:12
there is some story or another that has the police using excessive force. Either multiple officers beating up a civilian, killing them with a taser, or shooting them.
:rolleyes:
...and every time somebody with a permit shoots an armed robber he was really a good boy who was turning his life around until the mean bastard with the license to kill gunned him down in cold blood.
Hint: Everything the press prints is not true.
John_Wayne777
03-09-10, 07:34
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/18/taser.death/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/nyregion/25tased.html?em
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,493228,00.html
Just a few related incidents. Although most documented cases you find aren't the direct result of the taser, but what the reaction to the taser is, ie: falling through a window.
For pete's sake....
Let's take a look at that last one, shall we? What's the lead-in?
A man running naked in the street died after he was shocked with a stun gun by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies.
Now why would a man be running naked in the street? Experience dictates that people who exhibit that behavior are often partaking in the wonders of modern chemistry. Certain controlled substances, you see, cause the individual to get really hot when they take too much of it, which causes them to strip buck naked. The sight of a dude running around in his birthday suit generally prompts a call to the local constabulary.
When the local constabulary arrives, they generally find that the naked dude is not completely in tune with reality. Generally this is because, again, he took too much of a controlled substance and is now completely incoherent. They spend time trying to corner the naked dude and get him under control, which is usually a fight because while the guy may be screaming something about how he NEEDS the paper, he's still plenty capable of putting up a fight. While the cops are trying to get the guy under control so they can get him some medical attention, the controlled substance he took is wreaking havoc on his body. His heart rate is probably at a dangerously high level just running around naked because of the drug which isn't improved any when he starts trying to fight with the cops. Keep in mind that the guy is probably not new to the use of controlled substances, either.
So when the Taser darts fly, they are hitting a guy who is high as a bloody kite and already in a state of medical distress...yet if the guy kicks the bucket, the Taser is what killed him. :rolleyes: It wasn't the fact that he had overdosed on a controlled substance (in and of itself a potentially lethal event), no...it was the TASER that killed him.
Believe it or not, people died in police custody before the advent of tasers in law enforcement. There is video out there somewhere of some 400 pound dude who was high out of his mind on some form of cocaine at a White Castle in Ohio. Somehow the local constabulary was summoned. When the dashcam takes over from the White Castle-cam you see the guy tell one of the officers that his momma taught him "this" as he tries to knock the officer's head off. So now the guy is in a fight with two cops and he's actually getting the better of it. Two or three more cops jump in and try to subdue the guy. They succeed on getting him on the ground...and then, with over 700 pounds of cop hanging on the guy, he actually gets back up. The cops finally get him down again and cuff him because he stops resisting.
A short time later (like 10 minutes or so) the guy kicks the bucket.
Did he die because the police worked him over with batons? Hell. No. He died because he was high as a kite, 400 pounds, had a piss poor diet, and pushed his already taxed system too hard in trying to whoop some 5-0 ass. Before the cops ever showed up he was on his way to the morgue (or a refrigerator truck as the morgue's drawers may not have held the guy). The decision to try and beat up 4 or 5 cops didn't help matters any.
A bunch of people croak every year shoveling snow for the same basic reason...overexertion. They push themselves too hard and they end up in a state of cardiac distress. If the methodology in assigning responsibility with the taser is followed in their example, we'd be blaming the snow shovel for their death.
So I'm afraid your news articles purporting to show that the taser directly caused someone's death don't actually accomplish that.
There is video out there somewhere of some 400 pound dude who was high out of his mind on some form of cocaine at a White Castle in Ohio. Somehow the local constabulary was summoned. When the dashcam takes over from the White Castle-cam you see the guy tell one of the officers that his momma taught him "this" as he tries to knock the officer's head off. So now the guy is in a fight with two cops and he's actually getting the better of it. Two or three more cops jump in and try to subdue the guy. They succeed on getting him on the ground...and then, with over 700 pounds of cop hanging on the guy, he actually gets back up. The cops finally get him down again and cuff him because he stops resisting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3-MrFOLXFs
Bobert0989
03-11-10, 03:54
. . . . Although most documented cases you find aren't the direct result of the taser, but what the reaction to the taser is, ie: falling through a window.
This also pertains to the body's reaction to the electricity flowing through it, however amplified it may become due to their current state-of-mind or physical abilities.
I also stated that in MOST cases the taser isn't DIRECTLY responsible for the death, but does play a role. I'm not trying to start a pissing match over it, just pointing it out. ;)
I don't have a problem with the use of tasers. I think they help more than they hurt, when used properly with common logical reasoning... and IF someone dies as direct result of a taser, it was THEIR decisions and acts that put them into the position requiring the use of force to subbdue them anyways. It should never be seen as an officer's fault if someone dies while they are trying to subdue them, as long as there was a reason to do so. Just like the big guy in that video, that was HIS fault, a direct result of HIS actions.
Now, tasing random people in the streets just for laughs, that's not justified use of the taser. Feel where I'm going here?
Where are the consequences for brandishing a weapon in DC?http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/10-day-suspension-recommended-for-cop-who-drew-gun-in-snowball-fight-87157162.html
A D.C. police officer who made international headlines after drawing his gun during a snowball fight should be suspended for 10 days, internal investigators have recommended.
Det. Michael Baylor didn’t fill out the correct paperwork after he stopped a man who he thought had tossed a snowball and “engaged in conduct that is prejudicial to the reputation of the police force,” according to an internal police report of the incident.
Baylor attained international notoriety during a snowstorm on Dec. 19, 2009 when he passed through an Internet-organized snowball fight among residents. Driving home in his Humvee, Baylor’s vehicle was pelted with snowballs near the intersection of 14th and U Streets, NW.
Claiming that he was afraid for his safety, he drew out his service pistol. Someone in the crowd called 911 and someone else videotaped the incident, turning a neighborhood frolic into an international forum on police conduct.
After other officers arrived but didn’t handcuff Baylor, the crowd grew angrier, the internal police report shows, hurling more snowballs and insults. They also shouted, “You don’t bring a gun to a snowball fight.”
Amid the conflict, Baylor grabbed environmental lawyer Daniel Schramm and briefly snatched his identification, thinking he had tossed an offending snowball. Schramm was later released without charge, but Baylor is now being disciplined for failing to file a report on Schramm’s detention.
Among those who were most vocal in condemning Baylor was Chief Cathy Lanier, who said that Baylor’s conduct was “totally inappropriate” and vowed “swift action” and “discipline.”
Police union Chair Kris Baumann said Baylor was unfairly ridiculed.
“People were manipulated by this story,” he said. “Everybody rushed to judgment, including the chief. And you can’t do that if you’re the police.”
Neither Lanier’s spokeswoman nor city Attorney General Peter Nickles responded to requests for comment.
Schramm, the snowballing lawyer whom Baylor grabbed initially after he was pelted by snowballs, declined immediate comment.
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