View Full Version : The official 2000 Round Challendge DISCUSSION THREAD
I'm game after the 1st of the year. I've got a 2008 Sig P229 .40 I'd like to run hard. How about we also limit the challenge to three magazines and they cannot be cleaned either. Would we post results here or on Todd's forum?
I'm game after the 1st of the year. I've got a 2008 Sig P229 .40 I'd like to run hard. How about we also limit the challenge to three magazines and they cannot be cleaned either. Would we post results here or on Todd's forum?
You can post them on both if you're a member there as well. It's totally up to you.
Starting this with my new G17 RTF. 200 rounds in on 12/20.
CaptainDooley
12-22-09, 18:55
Once I get the Todd Green/Pistol-Training.com M&P9 I will start this... *cough, cough* (I keed, I keed)
Seriously though, I'm already stocking up the ammo...
If you try the Challenge and the gun doesn't make it through with 0/0/0 stoppages, malfs, and breakages please post your results anyway. Seeing what doesn't succeed is probably more informative than seeing what does.
This looks interesting...:cool: I just wish I had 2,000 rounds to shoot haha.
wicked_police
12-22-09, 22:34
This looks interesting...:cool: I just wish I had 2,000 rounds to shoot haha.
I've got a little over 100k at work right now, as well as another 250k that just came in.
Of course, that has to last the year of courses and re-certifications as well.
lol
After the holidays, I'll probably have a couple weeks of at least 5k rounds/week through some different guns
Todd,
not sure if you have posted this somewhere or I'm missing it...but any particular reason why 2,000? Is that a common number where most pistols fail or is it something else?
not sure if you have posted this somewhere or I'm missing it...but any particular reason why 2,000? Is that a common number where most pistols fail or is it something else?
It's really pretty arbitrary. The Challenge was begun after so many people balked at my, shall we say, "less stringent" maintenance habits. In my experience, just about any serious modern handgun, using something like Miltec, should be able to reach 2k without cleaning, without needing more lube, and without stoppages.
The thing many people "forget" is that the 2,000 Round Challenge included absolutely no adding lubrication to the gun during the whole 2,000 round cycle. You clean & lube before you start, and then do nothing but shoot the gun until you hit 2,000. If you add some oil or grease during the 2,000 rounds, it's disqualified.
In order to keep the 2000 Round Challenge thread clean for posting results of the challenge let's put all comments, questions and discussions here. We'll try it this way for a little while and see how it goes. Hopefully it won't be too confusing.
Here's a link to the original (results only) thread: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=43569
Outlander Systems
12-23-09, 10:18
I'm sitting on 900 through an HK USP .45 with no cleaning, no FTFs/FTEs/DFs/LPSs/etc. I was actually going to get to it this week as part of the end-of-year kit maintenance ritual, but I may pass...
This doesn't have to be 2,000, in one range outing does it?
If not, I'll play your game, you Rogue!
This doesn't have to be 2,000, in one range outing does it?
NC -- No, it doesn't have to be in one session. Very few folks shoot 2k in a day, and as someone who's done it multiple times I can attest to the fact that it's nowhere near as fun as it sounds.
You can take the challenge over the course of a year if you want. All that matters is the gun doesn't get cleaned or lubed between round #1 and round #2000.
Outlander Systems
12-23-09, 10:31
Roger that. This might be interesting. Thanks for giving me a reason to be a lazy bastard on the maintenance end.
Cool, I'm gonna go to the NRA range today and try to put 800 rounds through my new Professional. If anyone is up there from here stop and say hello I'll be the guy with the Mohawk and the 1911.:cool::D
I had a P229 that I tried this on last year. I think this time I might try it out on the P7.
I am guessing that I'll be the first to both fail and burn myself.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-23-09, 14:15
I will include my results here. In my experience you have to get way beyond 2k before you start having "dirty gun" issues.
Four,
I LOVE the P7 but I seriously doubt it will make it 2k without using the tool. Now, I don't think you will have to clean anything else.
Do any of you guys (besides Todd) have an issue with running this test with your primary CCW?
I want to do the challenge with my G26 but that's my primary CCW and EDC. Now I'm not concerned from a legal standpoint but from a habit/OCD standpoint I'm not sure I can let my G26 go for 2000 rounds IF I'm carrying it.
I have plenty of other Glocks to carry or use for the challenge but I'm really smitten with my G26 and enjoy shooting and carrying it.
Littlelebowski
12-23-09, 14:45
I've already done this as of late with my G19 and a lube I'm trying out for a friend's company. I'm game and I'll use my carry G19.
Littlelebowski
12-23-09, 14:53
We gotta get some 1911 guys in on this.
Do any of you guys (besides Todd) have an issue with running this test with your primary CCW?
I've done this twice with two different CCWs. both Sigs from a the late 90's early 00's. Partially because it was the gun I wanted to practice with the most and partially because I wanted to know what would happen in those 2000 since it was the gun that is always on me.
that said, I will *not* be CCWing the P7. Certainly not any time after round 1000.
Stan_TheGunNut
12-23-09, 15:46
We gotta get some 1911 guys in on this.
I'm not a "1911 guy" but I do have a couple. I also reload for the 45 ACP. So I'll take this on...just don't expect me to post lots of results immediately. With my other commitments, the cost of ammo, etc, I'd say it would probably be several months at least (probably longer), before I manage to shoot 2000 rounds out of one of my 1911's.
Which one of the following three would you all like to see tested?
Springfield Armory Loaded model
Springfield Armory Basic model
Kimber Ultra Carry
We gotta get some 1911 guys in on this.
I'm about to pull up to the range right now and run some ammo through my new Springfield. I'll let you know how it goes.
I just gave my used Thunder Ranch Special a new recoil spring and half-assed cleaning, I'll do 2k with it, though that might take several months. Guess I ought to lube it up right nice first.
My Springfield Loaded 9mm would be more affordable, but I've got to buy it a GI guide rod setup and new recoil spring first.
Business_Casual
12-23-09, 16:35
Which one of the following three would you all like to see tested?
Springfield Armory Loaded model
Springfield Armory Basic model
Kimber Ultra Carry
Kimber.
M_P
Kimber Ultra Carry
This would certainly be the most entertaining. :cool:
Stan_TheGunNut
12-23-09, 19:48
This would certainly be the most entertaining. :cool:
Kimber Ultra Carry it is then. A little about the pistol...I purchased it new on 11/30/02 (I found my receipt). It is completely stock and in the same configuration as when I purchased it. I do not know the round count, but am guessing it's in the 500ish range. I do not recall having any issues with it, but it's been a while since I've shot it much.
I think I have some 45 laying around, and will get started this week on the 2000 round test. After that, I'll probably have to wait till the bullets I ordered arrive so I can do some reloading. I'll also go buy some factory ammo, just to mix it up a bit. I may also buy a couple of short magazines instead of using standard 1911 mags. I think I only have the one mag that completely fits inside the magwell. I'll be sure to number them so that I limit myself to the same three.
Never owned a 1911 that would make it through 100 rounds, much less 2K, lol.
I would play, but 357 SIG ammo is too expensive and I am broke. I would be very interested in how my stainless P-series in QPQ holds up.
I just PM'd Todd asking for permission to post this over on 1911forum.com to see if I can get any of the high-end 1911 guys to bite. They love to bash the poly-guns, let's see if they'll step up to the plate. I think my SA Operator would survive this test. Maybe my Dan Wesson. None of my other 1911s would have a chance.
As it is I plan on running this with my new M&P9. I need to break it in before I use it in classes next year.
John_Wayne777
12-23-09, 21:43
Kimber.
M_P
You.
Are.
Evil.
John_Wayne777
12-23-09, 21:45
I just PM'd Todd asking for permission to post this over on 1911forum.com to see if I can get any of the high-end 1911 guys to bite. They love to bash the poly-guns, let's see if they'll step up to the plate. I think my SA Operator would survive this test. Maybe my Dan Wesson. None of my other 1911s would have a chance.
As it is I plan on running this with my new M&P9. I need to break it in before I use it in classes next year.
FWIW I've run a Les Baer through multiple 2,000+ round courses with excellent reliability...but never without cleaning or lube. I lubed the weapon twice a day and detail stripped for a cleaning halfway through the 5 day courses.
...and the gun got all important springs (mag and recoil) before showing up for the course...and after the course...etc.
FWIW I've run a Les Baer through multiple 2,000+ round courses with excellent reliability...but never without cleaning or lube. I lubed the weapon twice a day and detail stripped for a cleaning halfway through the 5 day courses.
...and the gun got all important springs (mag and recoil) before showing up for the course...and after the course...etc.
Oh I think all my 1911s could survive 2000 rounds without problems given the right TLC. I just don't think they'd make it 2000 rounds without it (again with the exception of my Springer).
And I'm certainly not anti-1911. I love them.
I just ran....
500 Winchester white box 230 gr FMJ
400 Lake City 230 gr FMJ
50 Federal HST 230gr JHP
50 Winchester Ranger T 230gr JHP
25 Remington Golden Saber 230gr JHP
25 Remington Golden Saber 185gr +P JHP
My 1911 had no problems. After the first 500rds I had to put gloves on because my hands couldn't take anymore abuse from the VZ Diamondback grips. So I have a total of 1,050 rounds through my gun. I plan on trying to get some more practice ammo and some more jhps to run through my gun. :cool: Hopefully by the end of next month I'll be able to claim the 2k Challenge
I'm in with my new Glock 17, just ran the first 250 through it and cleaned it. Guess I'll start it now. I'll also throw the Sig P6 in to make it interesting.
wicked_police
12-23-09, 23:32
Do any of you guys (besides Todd) have an issue with running this test with your primary CCW?
I want to do the challenge with my G26 but that's my primary CCW and EDC. Now I'm not concerned from a legal standpoint but from a habit/OCD standpoint I'm not sure I can let my G26 go for 2000 rounds IF I'm carrying it.
I have plenty of other Glocks to carry or use for the challenge but I'm really smitten with my G26 and enjoy shooting and carrying it.
Two of the guns that I've posted in the other thread were carried during/after the 2k mark.
I had no problem carrying the guns, and felt more than comfortable with them.
The only gun I've used lately that I would NOT want to carry, whether it was clean or not, is one that hasn't hit 2k yet. I'll post up the results in the other thread in the next couple weeks when I get a few more rounds through it.
ETA: Didn't realize the test required such detailed record keeping!
decodeddiesel
12-24-09, 00:08
So far I have run the 2000 round challenge with two 9mm pistols.
I would like to try it with my 10.5" LMT but I know there is no lube out there that would last 2000 rounds. Also I have my M&P45 which I will run this test on.
ETA: added results to sticky.
If you've put a gun through the test, you should enter your results in the stickied thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=43569) that's only for results.
decodeddiesel
12-24-09, 10:27
If you've put a gun through the test, you should enter your results in the stickied thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=43569) that's only for results.
Missed that, thanks Todd.
Do any of you guys (besides Todd) have an issue with running this test with your primary CCW?
I want to do the challenge with my G26 but that's my primary CCW and EDC. Now I'm not concerned from a legal standpoint but from a habit/OCD standpoint I'm not sure I can let my G26 go for 2000 rounds IF I'm carrying it.
I have plenty of other Glocks to carry or use for the challenge but I'm really smitten with my G26 and enjoy shooting and carrying it.
yeah i kinda feel teh same way. i could probaby run 2k rounds in a month or so.... just do it with my G19, and not carry it. just carry my G26 in its place...
anybody ever have a glock firing pin safety jam up due to lack of cleaning? that's my biggest concern.
John_Wayne777
12-24-09, 11:47
I've never seen a Glock have striker issues after as little as 2,000 rounds.
As far as doing this with a primary carry gun...I had no reservations doing it with my M&P. I didn't clean or lube my M&P until after Todd's class in August was over. I didn't count that in my numbers because I had no clue how many rounds I fired in Todd's class.
I wouldn't do it with a 1911 given how sensitive they can be to lubrication.
Littlelebowski
12-24-09, 11:49
I've never seen a Glock have striker issues after as little as 2,000 rounds.
As far as doing this with a primary carry gun...I had no reservations doing it with my M&P. I didn't clean or lube my M&P until after Todd's class in August was over. I didn't count that in my numbers because I had no clue how many rounds I fired in Todd's class.
I wouldn't do it with a 1911 given how sensitive they can be to lubrication.
Most 1911 owners won't admit this nor step up for this sort of challenge.
I'd like to be the first 1911 owner to try and succeed :D
Most 1911 owners won't admit this nor step up for this sort of challenge.
Unfortunately you're right. I posted this over on 1911forum.com and the responses are about what I expected.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2454559#post2454559
Disappointing. I'm still hoping some of the high-end owners will step up and try this but doesn't look promising.
A couple choice quotes:
I don't care if my pistols will do 2K rounds without cleaning.
I think it is a dumb test. Who will carry a SD gun without cleaning?
The test might be entertaining, but not worth anything in my view.
But this is my favorite:
It's only important that I can trust my CCW for 25 rounds without cleaning.
Loaded: 8+1
and 2 spare 8 round mags
After that, the police will probably have it for evidence or something.
Anything else is just bragging rights.
I'm still hoping a few will step up and try. I love 1911s and would really like to see them do well in this challenge.
John_Wayne777
12-24-09, 14:44
Most 1911 owners won't admit this nor step up for this sort of challenge.
I think it could be done with a 1911 that is in good working order if you carefully lubricated the gun prior to the test using a durable grease in the higher friction areas of the weapon. Having a finish with some inherent lubricity would also be helpful.
In reality most guys dramatically underlubricate their 1911's anyway...which is one of the common causes for choking in classes fairly low in the round count.
I think it is a dumb test. Who will carry a SD gun without cleaning?
The test might be entertaining, but not worth anything in my view.
Granted not everyone is going to be in a firefight or be overseas on mission. But I think a gun that can run without cleaning is worth it's weight in gold. Being able to clean your gun is a luxury. Sometimes you won't be able to clean your gun when shtf. I think that's a silly thing to say....Yeah I will say that for some it will be a bragging right but for most it would be peace of mind knowing that my tool will function when it's at it's worse.
decodeddiesel
12-24-09, 15:23
Unfortunately you're right. I posted this over on 1911forum.com and the responses are about what I expected...
That forum is a big reason for moving away from the 1911. I still love the pistol, but some of the JMB worship and other non-sense really turned me off.
There's a guy from OH who has run the test with a number of 1911s (and reported them in the original thread at the other site).
S&W 1911 (blued, fixed sights): passed
Wilson CQB: passed (fired 4,580rd of handloads without cleaning/lubing)
Les Baer Super Tac: passed
SA Target: failed (1 stovepipe; 2 failures to feed)
Another guy, who is a personal friend of mine and active duty SOCOM type dude, also passed the test with a MARS Direct Action 1911 (Caspian frame and slide).
As for the naysayers, of course the test is extreme. With a little care and a little luck, I could get a Lorcin to shoot 25 rounds in a row without a stoppage.
Littlelebowski
12-24-09, 15:39
The 1911forum responses are just sad.
I don't see why a 1911 couldn't do it. Somebody send me their 1911 and two cases of ammo and I'll try it!
:D
In fairness to the 1911 Forum guys, quite a few of them said they're going to try it.
For the others, if you've got a gun you know can't hack the test and you want to continue believing it's the greatest gun of all time, of course you're not going to subject it to this kind of punishing regime.
I've just done it so many times with Berettas, SIGs, Smiths, and now an HK (many times over) that it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. That's why I'm skeptical about a gun that can't do it.
I'd like to try this with a bone stock S70 repro.
The 1911 forum seems to consist of people who field strip after every 100 rounds at the range and detail strip monthly. Yuck. I'm not enough of a fetishist to really enjoy taking my guns down to parts and rebuilding them (while I watch Red Dawn, of course).
QuickStrike
12-24-09, 17:53
I'll try it with my springfield "milspec" 1911.
As some of you might remember, I posted a thread about it having feeding problems with gold dots. Sent it to SA, and got it 5-6 months later...
Still can't feed gold dots. It turns out that the magazines might be the problem. :o
The McCormick followers dips forward a lot and drives the nose of the round down too much. Hand cycling it with the old mags (with regular "nippled" followers) it feeds fine. I'll have to test this out some more.
Gold dots will definitely be among the 2000 rounds.
RogerinTPA
12-24-09, 18:59
I have a very, pretty much non existing, cleaning schedule, but 2K without lube, man that's just wrong! But, I'll give it a go as well. :cool:
We gotta get some 1911 guys in on this.
Most 1911 owners won't admit this nor step up for this sort of challenge.
The 1911forum responses are just sad.
I proudly classify myself as an M1911 zealot. I plan to complete the challenge with my Kimber. I have carefully tuned this pistol, so I have little doubt of its ability to complete the challenge. The cumulative round count to date is right around 7,375. I shoot with it in weekly IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches. I'm a guy from the 1911forum that is willing to put my money where my mouth is. In my experience (when properly configured), a 1911 requires no more lube than any other autopistol.
http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8419_1116800242086_1289384307_30299360_7107537_n.jpg
I proudly classify myself as an M1911 zealot. I plan to complete the challenge with my Kimber. I have carefully tuned this pistol, so I have little doubt of its ability to complete the challenge. The cumulative round count to date is right around 7,375. I shoot with it in weekly IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches. I'm a guy from the 1911forum that is willing to put my money where my mouth is. In my experience (when properly configured), a 1911 requires no more lube than any other autopistol.
http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8419_1116800242086_1289384307_30299360_7107537_n.jpg
Good on you bro and welcome! I know a properly tuned 1911 can do it.
decodeddiesel
12-24-09, 20:32
I proudly classify myself as an M1911 zealot. I plan to complete the challenge with my Kimber. I have carefully tuned this pistol, so I have little doubt of its ability to complete the challenge. The cumulative round count to date is right around 7,375. I shoot with it in weekly IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches. I'm a guy from the 1911forum that is willing to put my money where my mouth is. In my experience (when properly configured), a 1911 requires no more lube than any other autopistol.
http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs237.snc1/8419_1116800242086_1289384307_30299360_7107537_n.jpg
Good Stuff!
Stan_TheGunNut
12-24-09, 20:35
Here is the Kimber Ultra Carry that I'm planning on putting 2000 rounds thru.
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x298/Stan_TheGunNut/Kimber001.jpg
Edit: Wow, that's a big picture....let me see if I can trim it down some. Also, as I stated previously, it's as it came from the factory, and has maybe 500 rounds thru it, give or take.
I proudly classify myself as an M1911 zealot. I plan to complete the challenge with my Kimber. I have carefully tuned this pistol, so I have little doubt of its ability to complete the challenge. The cumulative round count to date is right around 7,375. I shoot with it in weekly IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches. I'm a guy from the 1911forum that is willing to put my money where my mouth is. In my experience (when properly configured), a 1911 requires no more lube than any other autopistol.
Excellent! I knew we'd get some takers!
decodeddiesel
12-25-09, 00:44
Here is the Kimber Ultra Carry that I'm planning on putting 2000 rounds thru.
Very impressed. I would love to see a compact 1911 make it through this test. Perhaps changing out the recoil spring right before the test would be a good idea.
Okay, I'm going to try this with my Ruger 22/45 Mk III, stock.
Should be interesting. It's the only thing I can afford to shoot that many rounds right now through, and with the general filthiness of the .22LR round it should be interesting.
Okay, I'm going to try this with my Ruger 22/45 Mk III, stock.
Should be interesting. It's the only thing I can afford to shoot that many rounds right now through, and with the general filthiness of the .22LR round it should be interesting.
Buy some real high quality ammo. I have had more than a 1:2000 failure rate from most rimfire ammunition.
I think it could be done with a 1911 that is in good working order if you carefully lubricated the gun prior to the test using a durable grease in the higher friction areas of the weapon. Having a finish with some inherent lubricity would also be helpful.
In reality most guys dramatically underlubricate their 1911's anyway...which is one of the common causes for choking in classes fairly low in the round count.
Back when I enjoyed 1911's I slathered them in lube. I never made it past a couple hundred rounds without a failure just due to the pistol though. It would stove-pipe, fail to feed, or any number of other failures. Slide velocity or crap under the extractor didn't play a role.
I do agree, a 1911 built to USGI spec's and finished in NP3 would get my vote for "most likely" to succeed.
Buy some real high quality ammo. I have had more than a 1:2000 failure rate from most rimfire ammunition.
I have never run into a dud CCI Minimag.
My .02
Ill start with a CZ 75B SA early next year. I just sold off a few thousand rounds of 9mm to fund a BCM upper.
After carefully lubricating my 1911, I dug myself out of the snow and shot 1,000 rounds at a local indoor range. I have experienced zero stoppages, malfunctions, or breakages so far.
I am shooting a 230 grain lead round nose bullet propelled to a power factor of 177,000 with Alliant Bullseye powder. I am using a stock 16 pound recoil spring and 21 pound main spring. The barrel is filthy, but she can still knock the stinger off a wasp at 15 yards - even when the operator is tired. :D
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu94/Counterpoint860/5Shot.jpg
I was too fatigued to try a 25 yard group. :o
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-28-09, 02:44
Shooting 2k rounds thru a P7 would take forever, even with oven mits on. Those suckers get HOT, FAST.
I don't see anything about the number or cleaning of mags? Two mags you can't clean is different than 15 mags you can, or variations there of.
Don't you think we need pics posted of the gun and mags after the test? As is and torn down. I'm not thinking that it would be a way to check whether or not people did the test, more I'm interested in perhaps seeing which ammo might be dirtiest, what kind of range conditions the gun was used in. Doing Tac relaods or Dropping your mags onto an indoor range floor, a soft grassy range, or the dry dust they call dirt in Colorado are three different things.
It looks like there will be a lot of guns that get a 0/0/0, if that is all we get, I don't think we'll learn much?
The guys at the 1911 forum sure don't like the idea of this challenge lol. I plan on posting pics of my 1911 after I'm done. I have like 900 more rounds to go. It's heart breaking to look at my gun right now with all the carbon and burnt powder all over my gun :(
The guys at the 1911 forum sure don't like the idea of this challenge lol. I plan on posting pics of my 1911 after I'm done. I have like 900 more rounds to go. It's heart breaking to look at my gun right now with all the carbon and burnt powder all over my gun :(
Nope. Most of them are moaning about their fragile little pistols. :p
I'm going to post some pictures when I'm done with the test.
As soon as my 4000 MG bullets, 4 lbs of powder and 5k SPP show up and I get 2000 rounds of 9mm loaded up ill put my MP9 through the test. It has close to 1000 rounds through it total right now(havent had the time to shoot it much) and I have only had 1 FTF on one of my re-loads. The primer was dimpled quite well, but it didnt fire. On the second pass through the gun the round went bang so I dont blame the gun I blame the re-load(I think I didnt get the primer seated 100% of the way).
I'll bite. 1911 Kimber Raptor Pro II.
I will be switching to my Glock for carry for the duration of this test simply because I tend to clean my carry gun often. Lots of bits of lint tend to find their way into the 1911 hammer area being I carry it everyday, and I'd hate for my confidence in it so far ( ~5000 total rounds thru this one) to be my demise if it were needed for something more serious.
I'll clean it, throw a new recoil spring in at the beginning, and lube it with SLIP2K. Every once in a while, it's probably a good idea to try and knock your favorite gun down a peg or two (or at least see if it'll handle it).
P.S. This'll be tough for me to let it sit as I grew up cleaning the crap outta every gun I shot because Grandpa wouldn't have it any other way. It's become habitual.
BLACK LION
12-28-09, 15:10
I have put over 2000 rounds through my XD .45 Tactical and have experienced approx 3 stove pipes and approx 4 failures to feed. I can attribute this to 2 things. I need to switch back to the 20lb spring when using the tungsten guide rod and stop using reloads for the "test"... I also my have some sand in my mags from them hitting the earth during "speed reloads". I am not ashamed to say my gun is not "flawless" but the "failures" I experienced were simple to rectify and only caused a split second of down time. Before I swapped in an 18.5# spring and before running wolf/reloads I had no problems whatsoever....
I look at these "tests" to bring out inconsistecies in everything related to the platform... its not perfect but so far its running good.
We are also running a brand new XD .45 service model thru this test and @ approx 1k rounds now we have experienced 1 failure to feed(reloads) and some failure to lock the slide on an empty mag that has now been attributed to the shooters agressive grip pushing the slide release while shooting...
I am running my recently accquired USP through its paces now and found that it has operated flawlessly with the same above ammo aside from a faulty mag in my inventory that will not lock the slide back(no wonder he threw that one in the deal)... I am finding my HK to be the least finnicky but "less accurate" than my XD .45 tactical... I have also had more time behind my XD and consider it to be "broken in"... my HK is still wet behind the ears as it is still failry new and has seen less than half the rounds my XDs have.
Hey guys, let's stop ripping on "1911 guys" okay? Just because a few guys on another site didn't think much of the test doesn't mean everyone that owns a 1911 feels the same way.
Thanks.
Hey guys, let's stop ripping on "1911 guys" okay? Just because a few guys on another site didn't think much of the test doesn't mean everyone that owns a 1911 feels the same way.
Thanks.
Nicely stated.
*%$#@!???&*$#!MF'ersMoosecock*&^%$#@
With many posters that I respect weighing in all this means is my HK USP is going to be very expensive in the beginning of '10. How can I be so unhappy AND happy at the same time?
I'm in. Have 3K rounds at home right now. Thanks alot %^&*$#@!!!*&^^$@%$&.
My wife hates ya'll. And me now.
Before/after pics soon to follow.
*&^%$#@@#$!!!@#%$&!!!!!!$^&U&%$!!!!!. USP Compact needs a good run too. *&^%$#@!!!!!!!@###$%^&&^%%$#@@.
Since I'm close to Bragg, I'll make sure we have some well-knowns in on the fun.
Jay Cunningham
12-28-09, 20:21
I sort of think this test would be *much more interesting* if we excluded Glock, HK and the S&W M&P series.
Finding out how some of the other pistols out there hold up would make for some good reading.
I have a feeling a Hi point would make it lol
decodeddiesel
12-28-09, 20:41
I sort of think this test would be *much more interesting* if we excluded Glock, HK and the S&W M&P series.
Finding out how some of the other pistols out there hold up would make for some good reading.
This is why I included the P99 QA. It has about 10k through it since the test so maybe it is time to repeat the test.
Also I think FMCDH has a point about the number of magazines used. I will be repeating the test with 3 magazines, I only had 2 for the first round.
DD- Good point on the mags. What is everyone thinking would be a good # of mags to abuse/use for the test?
DocHolliday01
12-28-09, 21:20
I'm planning on buying a Nighthawk GRP Recon mid year and will run it through the test as long as I can get ammo for it. Otherwise I just have boring Glocks to use.
I'm planning on buying a Nighthawk GRP Recon mid year and will run it through the test as long as I can get ammo for it. Otherwise I just have boring Glocks to use.
I would love to see that. That is precisely the type of 1911 I'd like to see attempt this. Expensive, tight tolerances. I really hope it does well. I love Nighthawks. Not enough that I've convinced myself I can afford one, but I love em.
DocHolliday01
12-28-09, 22:26
I'm thinking the same thing. It will be my first 1911 so I may shoot it/get some dry fire in to get used to it before I start the test. It will be interesting to see how it reacts to this kind of test. I rarely clean my Glocks or my AR's for that matter but have a feeling the 1911 may need a little more maintenance.
The response from the 1911 forum was not surprising. It could have been any pistol forum, it doesn't matter. It is their forum after all and with a fair share of stick poking going on, I am not surprised by the reaction.
As for the 1911 forum guys that responded, well perhaps they are not military, nor LE. Do they need their weapons to run for 2K rounds without cleaning or additional lube? Not in the least. Does this kind of test mean anything to their shooting sport / ownership reality? Not in the least. Are they "shooters" so to speak? Well, perhaps that is a subjective viewpoint and may be highly dependent on the individual, but they are firearms enthusiasts that is good enough in my book.
As for 1911's, I own and shoot them. Hell I own a lot of different brands of pistols. Do I need to run any of my pistols through this type of 2K, no clean, or adding lube test to prove them worthy of me owning them or as a basis to chose one for duty use? Not in my book, as I have never done this with any pistol no matter the maker. I think about the most I have gone is around 700-800 without at least adding lube. As has already been admitted, the 2K number was picked quite arbitrarily. Does a LE or military duty pistol ever go 2K without cleaning or lube? Well if we say, it should be able to, well then why not 5K or 10K? What defines this number? The creator of this challenge coming up with an arbitrary number and that being taken as being the benchmark of pistol worthiness?
I am not knocking this "for fun" test as even I am entertained by it, but I am also keeping it in perspective. If a pistol runs well for 100K and is properly maintained, cleaned and lubed, does that make it any less worthy of a pistol for 99.9% of the population, LE and military included, than one that has ran for 2K rounds without lube? If you are the .1% commonly running a pistol over 2K rounds without being able to clean and/or add lube and your life or the lives of others depend on this ability for the pistol to reliably do so, then by all means you should run all of your pistols through this test. However I think you should go well beyond the 2K mark and perhaps triple that number to call it reliable.
As for 1911's the only one I might be willing to do it with is my STI Tac5.0 because it is a .40S&W and I have the ammo to shoot. On several occasions I have run it to the 7-800 mark without cleaning or adding lube and I am pretty confident that as tight of fitment on the pistol with its very extreme accuracy, it could hit the 2K mark. Still don't think I would want to take the time / effort to do it. After all what would I really be proving? Now if I were to pick an arbitrary number I pick somewhere between 10-15K and then I will really be impressed. Why don't some of you guys do that one and let me know how it goes. :D
Well, that didn't last long.
1911 Kimber Raptor Pro II lasted 623 rounds using Win Whitebox 230g FMJ's with Chip McCormick 10 rnd magazines. That's the most rounds I've put thru it in one session. I'm usually around the 300-350rnd mark before cleaning it. Honestly, I'm still fairly impressed with its performance, it is dirtier than hell.
Ended up being a failure to feed from the magazine. I still love the pistol, I shoot it better than any other pistol I have, but I will be seriously reconsidering using it during the Magpul class in April. I'll probably end up using the USP for the class if I can find a few more mags for under a sliver of gold each.
Thanks for the interesting test and for knocking my belief in this pistol down a peg or two.
Well, that didn't last long.
1911 Kimber Raptor Pro II lasted 623 rounds using Win Whitebox 230g FMJ's with Chip McCormick 10 rnd magazines. That's the most rounds I've put thru it in one session. I'm usually around the 300-350rnd mark before cleaning it. Honestly, I'm still fairly impressed with its performance, it is dirtier than hell.
Ended up being a failure to feed from the magazine. I still love the pistol, I shoot it better than any other pistol I have, but I will be seriously reconsidering using it during the Magpul class in April. I'll probably end up using the USP for the class if I can find a few more mags for under a sliver of gold each.
Thanks for the interesting test and for knocking my belief in this pistol down a peg or two.
i have a Kimber eclipse that twice now, after about 300rounds will start to "failure to return to battery. Other than the gun is still really tight, i have a problem with finding an oil that won't cook off buy then.
I am thinking of trying my remmy dry lube (wax) that i have for my rimfires, mobile1, or ATF.
I still love the pistol, I shoot it better than any other pistol I have, but I will be seriously reconsidering using it during the Magpul class in April. I'll probably end up using the USP for the class if I can find a few more mags for under a sliver of gold each.
I used two pistols for the Magpul handgun class I took last summer, a Glock 19 and my SA LW Operator. I only used the Operator for the morning session second day of the class (about 500 rounds worth) based purely on cost of the .45 rounds and the limited supply I had at the time. The first day of the class I used the G19. Last day G19.
My observations from that class were these. My groups tightened up and my speed increased with the Operator. However, by the end of the morning I could see a noticeable slowing in the cycling of the slide as the gun became dirtier from the shooting and from the powdery dust of the shooting environment we were in (Pueblo moon dust).
I had absolutely no failures of any kind that morning and was shooting 230gr WWB. I don't know if I would have had any failures that afternoon but I think that if I had planned on shooting it that afternoon I would have cleaned and lubed it over the lunch break. There were several other 1911s of different flavors as well and they all noticed an appreciable difference in performance as the round count went up.
My only issues with the Glock for the class were after we started rolling around on the ground and my magazines started to fill up with the moon dust. I had a couple issues where the magazine follower jammed with the dust and were no longer feeding rounds.
The moral of this story? I'm still taking my Operator to the Magpul carbine class I'm shooting in 2010 (there's just something fun about cracking off that 1911) but I'm going to be shooting my M&P9 for the Magpul handgun class. Based on my experience so far the 1911 will have no problems handling the round count of the carbine class but I prefer to worry more about shooting technique in the pistol class rather than worrying about handgun failures.
Having a stoppage does not mean you have to end the test.
Either (a) report (in the main stickied thread) that you quit at x-rounds because the gun is no longer reliable, or keep shooting until you've hit 2,000 and record all the stoppages.
As others have pointed out, the test results are meaningless if we only see all the "pass" results and none of the "fail" results.
I sort of think this test would be *much more interesting* if we excluded Glock, HK and the S&W M&P series.
Finding out how some of the other pistols out there hold up would make for some good reading.
i think there's merit in verifying our belief in these weapons, but you have a good point. perhaps two 2000-round challenge threads should run concurrently- one for glock, HK and M&P and another for "all others." might encourage people to run guns in addition to their glock/hk/mp submissions.
I sort of think this test would be *much more interesting* if we excluded Glock, HK and the S&W M&P series.
Finding out how some of the other pistols out there hold up would make for some good reading.
why I picked the P7.
and it's a fun gun to shoot.
I'm thinking three mags will do it. I could do it with one, but no one will see the results for another 10 years. :)
I'm curious about the P99. I've always been attracted to the platform, but never enough to own one. this could be a bad thing for my check book.
John_Wayne777
12-29-09, 15:19
Well, that didn't last long.
1911 Kimber Raptor Pro II lasted 623 rounds using Win Whitebox 230g FMJ's with Chip McCormick 10 rnd magazines. That's the most rounds I've put thru it in one session. I'm usually around the 300-350rnd mark before cleaning it. Honestly, I'm still fairly impressed with its performance, it is dirtier than hell.
Ended up being a failure to feed from the magazine. I still love the pistol, I shoot it better than any other pistol I have, but I will be seriously reconsidering using it during the Magpul class in April. I'll probably end up using the USP for the class if I can find a few more mags for under a sliver of gold each.
Thanks for the interesting test and for knocking my belief in this pistol down a peg or two.
That's not really the purpose of the test in my mind.
Look: We're posting on the internet. Lots of people post lots of things on the internet, and when it comes to guns a lot of what gets posted on the internet is baloney. Everybody thinks their pet blaster will do X when in reality they've never approached doing X under any circumstances. If I had a nickel for every time I've been lectured on concealed carry by people who have never done it or the uselessness of night sights by people who have never attempted to fire a gun in low light or the virtues of X pistol by some ****ing kid whose only experience with the gun is playing Counter Strike, I'd be rich.
Hell, I'm currently being lectured on the obvious superiority of the 5.7 round based on the body count from the Fort Hood shootings and on the M&P's incredibly fragile striker on another board. :rolleyes:
The challenge isn't meant to be a "If you're gun can't do this then it's worthless!" test. If you go through the 2,000 round challenge you'll learn some things about your weapon that could prove very valuable. As I said, I wouldn't do this challenge with my 1911...but if for some reason I couldn't get to my regular carry guns and I had to depend on it to save my bacon I wouldn't hesitate to do so...because I know my gun. I've pushed it. I've learned about it from experts on the platform. I've even had probably the best 1911 guy on the planet give it a quick tune-up. I know its limits and how to give it the best possible shot of running reliably. For my gun, if I keep good mag springs in the mags, a good recoil spring under the barrel and a decent amount of lube on the gun it WILL go bang and WILL feed the next round reliably.
Use it as an opportunity to learn about your gun and what it requires.
I'm curious about the P99. I've always been attracted to the platform, but never enough to own one. this could be a bad thing for my check book.
I know it's not anywhere near the 2K marker but I once shot 500 rounds from a Walther P99 in one afternoon and it held up its end of the bargain. I love the P99 and came damn close to buying one but at the time I didn't know shit about shooting (not sure I do at this point either) and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Of course it took me 500 rounds to figure that out. Hey, if nothing else I'm persistent!
Well, that didn't last long.
1911 Kimber Raptor Pro II lasted 623 rounds using Win Whitebox 230g FMJ's with Chip McCormick 10 rnd magazines. That's the most rounds I've put thru it in one session. I'm usually around the 300-350rnd mark before cleaning it. Honestly, I'm still fairly impressed with its performance, it is dirtier than hell.
Ended up being a failure to feed from the magazine. I still love the pistol, I shoot it better than any other pistol I have, but I will be seriously reconsidering using it during the Magpul class in April. I'll probably end up using the USP for the class if I can find a few more mags for under a sliver of gold each.
Thanks for the interesting test and for knocking my belief in this pistol down a peg or two.
Keep going dude, don't stop yet.
That's not really the purpose of the test in my mind....
I agree with everything JW777 just said, except the M&P striker blurb <snicker> :D
JW,
When I said it knocked my belief in the pistol down a peg or two, I wasn't trying to convey that I don't trust the pistol, just that I don't trust it to the point of ignorance like I used to. I've definitely learned something from this, and plan to continue the test to 2000. Like I mentioned earlier though, I will switch to carrying my Glock for the duration simply because I had a tinge of fear that a failure may happen and I didn't want it to happen at the worst possible moment.
I'd mentioned that I usually shoot around 300-350 per session with no failures in the past. I am quite confident in the pistol when it is clean and lubed. On the flip side of that coin, I really don't want to shell out hard earned money for a class like Magpul's and end up with a problematic pistol. Sure, I'll have a backup, but that may take time away from instruction and I don't want to be "that guy".
I'd only mentioned that I'll be "seriously reconsidering" using it during the class so it doesn't become a distraction. If the end results of this test lead me to sending the pistol out for some reliability work, great, because I do shoot it better and faster (timed) than any of my other pistols.
BLACK LION
12-29-09, 16:19
I sort of think this test would be *much more interesting* if we excluded Glock, HK and the S&W M&P series.
Finding out how some of the other pistols out there hold up would make for some good reading.
Good-effin-idea TK ... +100
I its a great idea to put a beat on the underlings...
I am putting 3 XD.45s from 3 differnt owners(myself included) into the mix. I will strike my newfangled USP from the record.
I would like to see some Sigmas and Berettas get beat as well...
I would like to see some Sigmas and Berettas get beat as well...
I've done it with multiple Berettas in the past, but don't have specific data to point to for most of them. I went through, eg, both a 5-day Blackwater class and a 5-day class down at Rogers with Berettas that didn't get cleaned or re-lubed all week.
BLACK LION
12-29-09, 16:45
Use it as an opportunity to learn about your gun and what it requires.
Precisely....
BLACK LION
12-29-09, 17:25
I've done it with multiple Berettas in the past, but don't have specific data to point to for most of them. I went through, eg, both a 5-day Blackwater class and a 5-day class down at Rogers with Berettas that didn't get cleaned or re-lubed all week.
I am sure the M9 runs like a champ...I am fond of that platform.
Did you run the PX4 by any chance???
I would like to see some KHARs get beat too.
]Did you run the PX4 by any chance???
Now that's funny!
I've had one FTF from my NIB M&P45 around round 500 (it's at 2^10 with no further stoppages).
I'm honestly not sure what happened as the reload didn't go as planned. Normally the slide auto-forwards into battery, this time I was pushing the slide release as my pinky was still on the mag. Magazine may not have been seated entirely?? It stripped the round from the magazine and all it took was a slap to the bottom of the mag and a push on the rear of the slide to get it to run again. Attributing the stoppage to the gun for now instead of my uncanny ability to **** simple things up.
Based on my experience so far the 1911 will have no problems handling the round count of the carbine class but I prefer to worry more about shooting technique in the pistol class rather than worrying about handgun failures.
Who said shooting a 1911 and worrying about stoppages went hand in hand?
I competed in USPSA tonight putting 38 more rounds down range. My total with the Kimber is 1,038. So far so good, but boy is it filthy! The cases riding up the breechface are starting to push a coating of pasty gunk out of the way to feed. The feed ramp is pretty well coated with fouling, and I think there's some lead stuck to the inside of the frame. Hopefully, I will be able to complete the test by next Sunday. I think there's still some dirty CLP in it but obviously have not taken it apart to check.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-29-09, 22:42
I think my ability to not wipe down a 1500+ round gun would be about as strong as not popping a zit or a heel blister. If it is just sitting around, I'm going to pop it.
Who said shooting a 1911 and worrying about stoppages went hand in hand?
I competed in USPSA tonight putting 38 more rounds down range. My total with the Kimber is 1,038. So far so good, but boy is it filthy! The cases riding up the breechface are starting to push a coating of pasty gunk out of the way to feed. The feed ramp is pretty well coated with fouling, and I think there's some lead stuck to the inside of the frame. Hopefully, I will be able to complete the test by next Sunday. I think there's still some dirty CLP in it but obviously have not taken it apart to check.
I didn't mean 1911s in general, I meant that particular 1911 of mine. And it's really the only one of my 1911s that I would use in the class. The rest of them are recreational range guns and safe queens.
Oh, okay. I guess I was just expecting more 1911 backtalk. :D :p
Carry on!
BLACK LION
12-30-09, 13:45
Now that's funny!
:cool:
BL- Don't short yourself(or us). The USP is an excellent pistol that should leave you feeling a little light-headed after eating up 2K rounds. May make you totally confident using it when your life depends on it. Would love to see as many HK owners as possible verify what we all think. I will be a bit delayed in getting into the contest(will start in about 3wks.) but I fully expect the USP and USP Compact to live up to the hype. We'll see if they do.
BLACK LION
12-31-09, 14:12
BL- Don't short yourself(or us). The USP is an excellent pistol that should leave you feeling a little light-headed after eating up 2K rounds. May make you totally confident using it when your life depends on it. Would love to see as many HK owners as possible verify what we all think. I will be a bit delayed in getting into the contest(will start in about 3wks.) but I fully expect the USP and USP Compact to live up to the hype. We'll see if they do.
Nicely put...you are right.
I will include it in the running. I have yet to clean it and only lubed it once with some Otis SF dry lube.... Its only had about 500 thru it so I will report back once it hits the mark...
The service model XD .45 has approx 1k thru it with one light primer strike(reload) and one failure to feed(shooters firing hand thumb depressing the slide release while shooting).... The only drawback is that it needs to be cleaned for inspection weekly so it cant be run to 2k and beyond without cleaning. The other 2 XDs can and will be run with no cleaning...
My 1911 didn't make it, I had 1476 rounds through it and had 2 stoppages which were failure to chambers. They weren't experienced by me, so I'm thinking it was operator error on my shooting partner's part. I cleared both of them and on the last one she handed it over to me and I took over. It was round 1450 and 1452, I cleaned my gun and will try again in the summer :(
decodeddiesel
12-31-09, 14:46
My 1911 didn't make it, I had 1476 rounds through it and had 2 stoppages which were failure to chambers. They weren't experienced by me, so I'm thinking it was operator error on my shooting partner's part. I cleared both of them and on the last one she handed it over to me and I took over. It was round 1450 and 1452, I cleaned my gun and will try again in the summer :(
I wouldn't get too down, 1400 rounds through a 1911 without cleaning and additional lubricant is a hell of a feat in my opinion. It speaks volumes about the quality of the pistol.
Yeah, it's still pretty nice to know that it can go that far without lube or cleaning. I just wanted to be one of the first 1911 guys to be able to claim the 2k title haha. I'm contemplating buying a Hi Point just for kicks and see how well it would do. :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-31-09, 18:40
You guys are rich. I put 1000 rounds thru my Ruger 22/45 today, and my thumb wants to hitchhike away from me. Took about 3 hours. I finally figured out that a spent 40SW case can be used to slide down the loading button of the mags, otherwise I would have had to stop at about 600 roudns due to thumb damage.
I though the idea was not to stop when you had problems, but to do all 2000 rounds. Not a pass/fail test, just how many failures/2000.
So far I had one fail to fire, which 1 out 1000 rounds of "333" ammo I think is pretty good. Also had one failure to eject- and by that I mean about 1/16 left in the chamber, not the usual stuck case.
I'm pretty surprised, since I didn't actually clean it before I ran the test. Kind of flooded it with CLP and did some wipes as I worked the action. Let's just say it was 'seasoned'. Though it probably doesn't matter, it is good and gooey now.
Just out or curiosity, when firing a 22lr pistol and you are getting a lot of smoke when shooting - is that a sign of anything bad? I would shoot three mags at a time, and it seems after a while after one mag, the two remaining mags would produce a more smoke than the first one.
Just never shot this much 22lr with out at least running a snake down the bore.
You guys are rich. I put 1000 rounds thru my Ruger 22/45 today, and my thumb wants to hitchhike away from me. Took about 3 hours. I finally figured out that a spent 40SW case can be used to slide down the loading button of the mags, otherwise I would have had to stop at about 600 roudns due to thumb damage.
I though the idea was not to stop when you had problems, but to do all 2000 rounds. Not a pass/fail test, just how many failures/2000.
So far I had one fail to fire, which 1 out 1000 rounds of "333" ammo I think is pretty good. Also had one failure to eject- and by that I mean about 1/16 left in the chamber, not the usual stuck case.
I'm pretty surprised, since I didn't actually clean it before I ran the test. Kind of flooded it with CLP and did some wipes as I worked the action. Let's just say it was 'seasoned'. Though it probably doesn't matter, it is good and gooey now.
Just out or curiosity, when firing a 22lr pistol and you are getting a lot of smoke when shooting - is that a sign of anything bad? I would shoot three mags at a time, and it seems after a while after one mag, the two remaining mags would produce a more smoke than the first one.
Just never shot this much 22lr with out at least running a snake down the bore.
It helps when you cast your own bullets.
The smoke sounds like an excess of bullet lube starting to burn off. That is completely normal.
Any certain 9mm pistols that people want to see run through this test? I'm kinda over the XD, Glock, Sig, HK, and MP. I'm thinking about getting a FNP-9 to see how that runs. I don't see a lot of those at my range, yet the Marine Corps Exchange I'm affiliated with sells the hell out of them lol Also thinking about the Ruger SR9, 9mm 1911, or some sort of CZ. I do have a PX4 Storm here I could put through the paces. Would like to stick to 9mm as I could pawn it off on customers to shoot lol
No Khars, kel-tecs, or anything sub-compact. I actually would like to pick a gun for the range that someone would actually shoot.
FNP-9:
http://base-images.cygnuspub.com/images/Products/LET/2009/Mar/300x300/FNHUSA_FNP9andFNP40USGan_LET_0.png
A buddy (and sometimes board participant) had an FNP-9 that he bought late last year. The trigger mechanism was FUBAR. If you pulled the trigger almost but not quite to the break point and then released it, the sear would release with very little movement of the trigger on your next stroke. In other words, the gun would go off during trigger prep. Bad.
I think it would be very interesting to see a PX4 put through the test. To be fair, you'd need to be very judicious about following the manual's instructions for proper lubrication of the rotating barrel assembly before beginning.
There's been one Ruger SR9 that has already passed the test (on the other site), but never a PX4.
You guys are rich. I put 1000 rounds thru my Ruger 22/45 today, and my thumb wants to hitchhike away from me. Took about 3 hours. I finally figured out that a spent 40SW case can be used to slide down the loading button of the mags, otherwise I would have had to stop at about 600 roudns due to thumb damage.
get this!
http://www.gunblast.com/Cliploader.htm
its fricken awesome! there are only 2 downsides... 1, you burn up waaaay more 22s, and 2, you wish you had one for every gun!
Any certain 9mm pistols that people want to see run through this test? I'm kinda over the XD, Glock, Sig, HK, and MP. I'm thinking about getting a FNP-9 to see how that runs. I don't see a lot of those at my range, yet the Marine Corps Exchange I'm affiliated with sells the hell out of them lol Also thinking about the Ruger SR9, 9mm 1911, or some sort of CZ. I do have a PX4 Storm here I could put through the paces. Would like to stick to 9mm as I could pawn it off on customers to shoot lol
No Khars, kel-tecs, or anything sub-compact. I actually would like to pick a gun for the range that someone would actually shoot.
Ill probly attempt the test with my CZ SP-01 at some point. Ive got to clean it up and drown it in lube first though. :D Of course it will take me several months to complete b/c I dont shoot a lot, just to be shooting, and would prefer some of the rounds to be in a class.
Well, I managed to make a flawless finish today!
The test was fun and was a real test of stamina when completed over two days of shooting. The pistol is so dirty I'd say the barrel was parkerized if I didn't know better. :eek:
The slide has not slowed down, and the pistol still cycles like butter. I can very gently and slowly let the slide down and the round will still chamber without catching on anything. The barrel is fairly fouled, but the chamber is not too bad. I did notice that the pistol appeared to foul quickly in the beginning only to dirty much more slowly between the middle and end of the test.
I'll tell you, those Kimbers with all of their shoddy MIM parts and haphazard assembly can't even shoot more than a few hundred rounds without a parts breakage or malfunction. And they only work that well when you ceremonially slaughter a virgin goat while chanting quatrains from the pagan book of John Browning before going to the range. That's pretty common among all 1911's because they're antiquated and poorly designed junk that are finicky about everything..........wait a minute..........it passed?.......nevermind. :D
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu94/Counterpoint860/DirtyKimber.jpg
Believe it or not, that barrel is in the white.
A buddy (and sometimes board participant) had an FNP-9 that he bought late last year. The trigger mechanism was FUBAR. If you pulled the trigger almost but not quite to the break point and then released it, the sear would release with very little movement of the trigger on your next stroke. In other words, the gun would go off during trigger prep. Bad.
I think it would be very interesting to see a PX4 put through the test. To be fair, you'd need to be very judicious about following the manual's instructions for proper lubrication of the rotating barrel assembly before beginning.
There's been one Ruger SR9 that has already passed the test (on the other site), but never a PX4.
I'll give it a whirl. I'll see what the proper lubrication is according to the manual. It probably has around 2000rds through it already so it's well broken in.
nking -- So now whenever anyone says the test is unrealistic, we can say "Hell, even a Kimber passed!" :cool: What lube did you use and did you lube it differently than normal at the beginning of the test?
C -- I really look forward to seeing how the PX4 does.
nking -- So now whenever anyone says the test is unrealistic, we can say "Hell, even a Kimber passed!" :cool: What lube did you use and did you lube it differently than normal at the beginning of the test?
That sounds good Todd! :D
I use CLP to lube and clean the pistol. I lubed exactly the same for the test as I would do after normal cleaning:
One drop on the exposed head of the disconnector
One drop in each locking lug
One drop in each frame rail
Light coating on the entire barrel
Light coating on the disconnector rail
Light coating on the slide stop pin and bushing
I make sure oil is clear of the breech face/firing pin area, rack the slide a few times, and go shooting. After the test I noticed that the pistol was NOT dry; however, the remaining oil was extremely dirty and had small shards of fouling in it. It seems slightly thicker than when I started. All wear patterns on the weapon look identical to how they were prior to the test.
I used three KimPro Tac magazines with large base pads for the test. The lips and follower were fouled, but the rest of the magazine was relatively clean. The follower still moves up and down without a noticable gritty feel.
Thanks for the details, nking.
decodeddiesel
01-04-10, 17:33
Well I figure I will run this test again with my P99 QA after 2 years of carry and ownership and 10K rounds. I started with 300 rounds of 115gr WWB on 1/1/10...
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/MK18/Christmas2009ShootingNewYears031.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-04-10, 23:53
Well I figure I will run this test again with my P99 QA after 2 years of carry and ownership and 10K rounds. I started with 300 rounds of 115gr WWB on 1/1/10...
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/MK18/Christmas2009ShootingNewYears031.jpg
Super secret mountian top shooting location?
New G17 has had four failures to lock back on empty over ~450 rounds (one last range trip, three today in 150 rounds) - I'm not sure if it's operator error (I've got big thumbs) or one of my mags or a problem with the gun. Time to start isolating the problem.
eternal24k
01-05-10, 06:44
I am so in, now to decide whether to use my trusty W German P226 which has done this kind of thing before, or a NIB P228R... TAG
decodeddiesel
01-05-10, 09:20
Super secret mountian top shooting location?
;) Nah, just National Forest.
New G17 has had four failures to lock back on empty over ~450 rounds (one last range trip, three today in 150 rounds) - I'm not sure if it's operator error (I've got big thumbs) or one of my mags or a problem with the gun. Time to start isolating the problem.
I would have someone else shoot your gun and see if it happens to them as well. Also, doesn't hurt to try other mags whether yours or another person with a G17.
I'm in the middle of doing the 2000rd test with my G17 right now (About 600rds more to go). I would have posted it up already as I have had close to 73xx rounds through it without lube or cleaning but I remember having one stoppage mid november so I'm starting all over again though the initial lube and cleaning was in June. I started this test when I took a Blackwater class where I expended ~2600rds in 5 days. I don't use the gun for self defense so I said what the heck! I'll see how long it goes for without lube or a cleaning.
Right after this is done, I'll be doing up the test with a PX4 Storm 9mm.
I havent started my "official 2000 round test" yet with my MP9, but I figured out that MP's dont like light loads. I think I had maybe 600 rounds through my gun(3 range trips and I usually shoot about 200 rounds) and was trying some new loads and I think I made it about 4 or 5 rounds into the first mag and I had a FTE, cleared that and 2 or 3 rounds later I had another FTE. My dad said the case's were only going about 3". The slide also failed to lock back on the last shot. When my dad shot the gun I think the slide was only cycling about an inch or so and any limp wristing at all was causing the failures.
Moral of the story: 3g of Clays behind a 115g FMJRN in an MP9 does not work.
Now my gun is all cleaned up and I will actually start the 2000 round test and keep records. With a proper load I dont have a worry that my gun will make it through the test.
Im in.
I have a SA Pro with about 2500rds through it already with no problems, though I have cleaned it after every 500-750rds. The most I have shot it without relubing was 500 if I remember correctly. I am curious to see how it does. Should be interesting.
Its gonna take some time, though. I have about 200rds right now and need to order/cast some more bullets. I will be running 230gr ball unless I can find something for less $. The good news is my Dillon 550B came today.
I think I am going to replace the springs on it to before I begin. They are the original ones and will be due to be replaced sometime soon. And so I am not "cheating" I will go ahead and make the change before I begin.
Ill try to make updates as much as possible. Hopefully, I can get to the range and report back once a week.
I am going to make a guess that with lube sensitive weapons (1911), the quicker you shoot the 2k rds the better. I would imagine the longer you wait to get to the range the more lube will dry up.
I will also post some picks and whether or not it fails the test. If it does fail I plan on continuing just to see if the failure was a "fluke."
Im confident the Pro will accomplish it but Im not gonna hold my breath.
ETA: Im gonna use BreakFree CLP for the initial lube.
Pistol: S&W M&P45 full size
Caliber: .45ACP
Ammunition: HSM 230gr FMJ, 185gr Rainier reloads, 185gr Golden Saber reloads, 230gr FMJ reloads using Vihtavuori N320 powder.
Dates of testing: December 15, 2009 - January 14, 2010
Total rounds fired: 2,081
Stoppages: 1
Malfunctions: zero
Breakages: zero
Notes:
The pistol was purchased NIB before testing began and was stripped, cleaned, lubed with Hoppes Lubricating Oil (it was the closest thing at hand), and reassembled before testing.
Stoppage occurred at round 490 while a fresh magazine was being inserted into the gun from slide lock. I manually released the slide with my thumb while my pinky was still on the magazine and it may have been me sequencing the reload wrong. I'm blaming the pistol anyway.
The pistol sounds and looks like it is completely dry now. It probably is, and I blame low quality lube.
what about the mid-competition squib? :o
what about the mid-competition squib? :o
Added and thanks for reading the rules closer than I.
trunkmonkey
01-16-10, 23:28
Pistol: Smith and Wesson M&P9 Compact
Caliber: 9x19mm
Ammunition:
Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ
CCI 115gr Blazer FMJ
Winchester White Box 147gr FMJ
Brown Bear 115gr FMJ
Fiocchi Extrema 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP
Dates of testing: April 2009 - August 2009
Total rounds fired: 2000
Stoppages: I had one stoppage.
Malfunctions: zero
Breakages: zero
Notes: I began this test as soon as I purchased the pistol, so the "break in period" was part of the 2000 round challenge.
The one stoppage occurred within the first 50 rounds I fired from the pistol. It happened with the 115gr WWB purchased from Walmart. It should be noted that at the time numerous people reported problems with WWB so I really have a hard time believing it was the solely "gun's fault".
The test was conducted at the height of the ammunition shortage, hence the array of different ammo.
And the malfunction was? If you guys wouldn't mind elaborating on your malfunction. was it a failure to feed? failure to fire? failure to extract? etc
decodeddiesel
01-17-10, 09:16
And the malfunction was?
It was a failure to feed.
Perhaps a slightly less condescending tone would be called for here.
I'm going to try this with a XD45 Compact and a Keltec P3at. I've put over 2000 through the XD without any problems already, but it has been cleaned a couple of times. Surprisingly enough, the P3at has gone about 700 rounds without a hiccup. I was expecting a rough break-in period. I've got plenty of .45, but the Keltec test could take a while unless I can get some of my buddies to chip in some cash for some more .380.
I'm looking forward to testing the Keltec more than the XD, simply because there is a lot more of a chance of it not making it. I'm curious to see how it does. These are both CCW guns, so they better be able to function without constant care.
I have read the rules and I see nothing with regard to magazines. I ask because during a recent USPSA match amid blowing dust and sand I cleaned one magazine before it caused a malfunction. Do I need to eliminate this mag from the test? Can I clean the rest? The slide of my Beretta is making grinding noises due to the sand but no malfunctions in the 1st 500 rounds.
Thank you
BLACK LION
01-25-10, 15:04
I have read the rules and I see nothing with regard to magazines. I ask because during a recent USPSA match amid blowing dust and sand I cleaned one magazine before it caused a malfunction. Do I need to eliminate this mag from the test? Can I clean the rest? The slide of my Beretta is making grinding noises due to the sand but no malfunctions in the 1st 500 rounds.
Thank you
I for one have been intentionally dumping my mags in the dirt and only banging them on my knee pads to get the grit off before inserting more cartridges. I figure that if I kept it as gruesome as I could without endagering anyones saftey I should be GTG if ever called upon to beat the gun for real.
I am not advocating dunking your mags or your sidearm in buckets of mud to 'validate" the challenge somehow but for me, I am keeping everything it attracts with hard use on it be blood, sweat, sand or what have you. Nothing is getting cleaned not even my gear.
There are no rules regarding the mags, though in the spirit of the challenge one probably should not clean one's mags mid-test.
OK, since I number my mags I know which one it is and I will eliminate it from the test.
gtmtnbiker98
02-15-10, 17:49
Your 9mm P30 or did you get a 40? :DThe P30L is only available in 9mm, so yes, my 9mm. As for the P30S in .40, yep, got one back in January.
I would so do this test with my 1911, but two conditions prevent me from doing it.
1) It's my carry gun, I'd be fine with it taking two maybe three weeks, hell even a month or two to do the test, but, I don't want to carry a gun for self-defense with 1600 rounds through it without cleaning. You guys may feel differently.
(I clean my carry gun after every range useage, not because it really needs it, honestly, with 100-200 rounds through it, I'd be fine to just chamber a round and load a fresh magazine. But more to inspect parts, also wipe it down and lube it as it won't be re-lubed but basically 5-6 times a year, as I also only go shoot it once every 2-3 maybe 4 months.)
2) Kind of the reason above it'd take so long, simply can't afford that much ammo, range time, targets, etc. College student and such.
With Tax, it'd be $848 in ammo, plus targets (I dunno about you guys, but once it got a big enough hole through the center, I'd want a fresh one.) So let's say a new target per 100 shots? The size I like is about 1.50$ per. So let's say $30 in targets ($31.80 after tax). It's 10$ to rent a lane for one individual, so let's say I do it in four trips, 500 rounds a trip, $40. (I think that qualifies as services... so it's not taxed)
So totalling $919.80, so 920$.
Someday maybe.
I do have a suggestion though, how about you guys since this is a kind of torture test do it with 5 magazines. One of the things that causes the most malfunctions in a firearm is the Magazine, I think that'd be a good indication of reliability among magazines from the factory (with weapons such as Glocks and H&K's, 1911's... how about they just have to have all the same brand) as well, as some people only may buy a handful of magazines to shoot.
It might add another dynamic to the stress test.
What say you guys?
I have tried a number of times to compete in this test but with all this snow and bad weather, I can not keep myself from cleaning my guns. It is the only thing other than sharpening my knives that keeps me sane where locked in this house. I need a job (but I like retirement).
Sorry - all my weapons have failed!
Im in.
I have a SA Pro with about 2500rds through it already with no problems, though I have cleaned it after every 500-750rds. The most I have shot it without relubing was 500 if I remember correctly. I am curious to see how it does. Should be interesting.
Its gonna take some time, though. I have about 200rds right now and need to order/cast some more bullets. I will be running 230gr ball unless I can find something for less $. The good news is my Dillon 550B came today.
I think I am going to replace the springs on it to before I begin. They are the original ones and will be due to be replaced sometime soon. And so I am not "cheating" I will go ahead and make the change before I begin.
Ill try to make updates as much as possible. Hopefully, I can get to the range and report back once a week.
I am going to make a guess that with lube sensitive weapons (1911), the quicker you shoot the 2k rds the better. I would imagine the longer you wait to get to the range the more lube will dry up.
I will also post some picks and whether or not it fails the test. If it does fail I plan on continuing just to see if the failure was a "fluke."
Im confident the Pro will accomplish it but Im not gonna hold my breath.
ETA: Im gonna use BreakFree CLP for the initial lube.
I ran mine without cleaning it after the intial cleaning. My suggestion would be don't let anyone but you shoot it. I made the mistake of giving it to my friend and I'm pretty sure she limp wristed it and caused it to FTF. :cool:
Shatner -- In response to your post in the results thread:
Pistol: Glock 17
<....>
Notes: I stopped round-count on this gun somewhere in 2008 after passing 100k rounds. The only maintenance I have performed is replacing the recoil spring and all magazine springs. Slide, barrel and springs are cleaned with brake cleaner, plastic parts in Simple Green. Lube used is CLP. Gun is completely stock, save for the addition of Brooks A-Grips, and was purchased new by me in 1996.
What trigger spring setup are you using? Just to be clear, you're saying you've got over 100k rounds through that spring without ever replacing it. Or the striker spring. Or the takedown lever spring.
The takedown lever springs from that era, in particular, often break within 20k rounds. Having one go well past five times that is pretty spectacular. The same is true of the standard (as opposed to NY/green or NY2/orange) trigger springs.
Stan_TheGunNut
02-27-10, 20:23
Here is the Kimber Ultra Carry that I'm planning on putting 2000 rounds thru.
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x298/Stan_TheGunNut/Kimber001.jpg
Edit: Wow, that's a big picture....let me see if I can trim it down some. Also, as I stated previously, it's as it came from the factory, and has maybe 500 rounds thru it, give or take.
Work has been keeping me very busy, but I finally made it to the range today. Had 100 rounds of Winchester. I had one stoppage in the gun, and I think it was my fault. I beleive my thumb hit the slide stop and pushed it up locking the slide back. Since it's so early in the test, I'm going to start over. I know the little 1911 can do better than that.
Work has been keeping me very busy, but I finally made it to the range today. Had 100 rounds of Winchester. I had one stoppage in the gun, and I think it was my fault. I beleive my thumb hit the slide stop and pushed it up locking the slide back. Since it's so early in the test, I'm going to start over. I know the little 1911 can do better than that.
is starting over really a true test?
is starting over really a true test?
If he believes it's user induced, and it's only 100 rounds into it, I'd think so.
I've had a flawless experience with my CBOB, so have others, but I handed it to own of my friends, it worked with him for about the first 40-50 shots.
But, eventually, he'd fired, it would jam, the bullet was stuck inbetween the feed ramp and the barrel, almost inserted.
It happened to him three times.
He was limp wristing, I've never seen anyone else have that problem, I didn't have that problem, and after I told him he was limp wristing, to hold it firmer, malfunction went away.
Sad part I took my mom out with us, she didn't have that problem, hahahaha.
not the way i would do it but then again its not my gun. to me any stoppage for what ever reason is a stoppage. be it user induced or not.
Magic_Salad0892
03-17-10, 09:29
This test made me believe in my pistol more than I already did.
If my Glock 17 can function 2,000 rounds suppressed without cleaning. Then it's good to go.
BLACK LION
03-17-10, 19:49
2 XDs .45s (1 servive/1 tactical) around the 3k(probably over) mark with no real stoppages aside from:
XD.45 service(bone stock)- In the early rounds a slide lock failure was being induced by the shooters over agressive sloth-like thumb depressing the slide release(fixed by a slight grip change). This also happened while shooting remanufactured ammo.
XD.45 Tac(tungsten giude rod and 20# spring) - A stovepipe(easily cleared by a hand swipe) and a few failures to cycle... which only locked the slide before chambering the next round and all I had to do was a slight jerk to rack it get it back on target. It only happened 3 or four times and each times was during a slow string of fire...never during "mag dumps"(I am blaming the underpowered remanufactured ammo for any hicchoughs).
The XD.45 service had to be cleaned becuase it was inspected every range session(PO academy) although not much oil was used at all.
XD.45 Tac-has not been cleaned and only high wear areas oiled with lucas camshaft lube..
We have one more XD.45 tactical in the process of hitting 2k with no malfunctions...its at about 700 rounds or so with no cleaning and no lube.
An observation I have made brings me to the conclusion that handloads or "factory remanufactured" ammo may not be the best choice if you are looking for an absolute flawless 2k. Might also want to deduct any mags from the test that do not lock the slide back when empty(had to deduct an HK mag for this reason).
Of course my HK USP.45 is going through the challenge as well but in all honesty 2k rounds aint shyt for that gun as it seems to have no regard for ammo type or being dirty or being dry. I expect that from that gun.
The XD.45 is a young buck and I think its better for me to focus on them than something that has already proven itself a worthy sidearm.
Also, I would like to add that I am really being an ass to my XD in particular. I have deliberately picked mags up off the desert floor and loaded them up sand and all and fed them to that pistol...I may knock them on my knee pad once or twice but I think you get the idea.
Is everyone using the same ammo for all 2k, or all different makes and types? I feel it is important for a more "controlled" experiment to go a full 2k with the same ammo rather than a mix of manufacturers, grains, bullet types, brass casing/steel casing, etc. Example, go a full 2K with WWB FMJ, then only HP bullets, then only steel cases, etc. One could even drop the round count to make it more feasible and less costly.
Although if your firearm can go a full 2K eating absolutely everything, then that could be another experiment in itself.
Wish I had paid attention to this before my class with Garcia. Over 2k in two days on my G19 With Boresight Solutions grip reduction and 3.5 lbs connector, all fired with X200 attached. Didn't keep any records, and didn't clean it before the class.
Pistol: SV Infinity (short dust cover, standard slide)
Caliber: .40 S&W
Ammunition: My load of a 180 Zero FMJ, 5.1 grains of N320, WSP, 1.160" OAL, CCI brass
dates of testing: Jan 2008-now
rounds fired: More than I care to list (10,000+) I keep a log, it past 150,000 rds last month
stoppages; 0
malfunctions: 0
breakages: 4 slides and three barrels shot out
This was my orginal USPSA LTD gun purchased in '96. Ive logged every found fired since then. It became my practice gun in '97 and has been pushed harder than most would believe. USPSA shooters heat up and abuse practice guns!!! It has been the most reliable gun I own but I used STI mags for most of the shooting that were tweaked. Ever seen a gun burn out the top lands and grooves and leave just enough in the bottom to barely stablize a bullet????
(I kept the old barrels for show!)
A27257
John_Wayne777
03-18-10, 09:06
Mick:
I moved your post to this thread because it looks to me like you may have misunderstood the 2,000 round challenge thread.
Are you saying you haven't cleaned or lubricated your firearm since 1996, or did you shoot out 4 barrels during the 2,000 round test?
Pistol: SV Infinity (short dust cover, standard slide)
Caliber: .40 S&W
Ammunition: My load of a 180 Zero FMJ, 5.1 grains of N320, WSP, 1.160" OAL, CCI brass
dates of testing: Jan 2008-now
rounds fired: More than I care to list (10,000+) I keep a log, it past 150,000 rds last month
stoppages; 0
malfunctions: 0
breakages: 4 slides and three barrels shot out
I just want to be clear. You're saying you put more than 10,000 rounds of reloads through a double-stack 1911 without cleaning and without lubrication and had zero stoppages of any kind whatsoever?
decodeddiesel
03-18-10, 10:38
Reading comprehension, I am finding, is not a prerequisite to posting on the interwebs. Just saying...
decodeddiesel
03-18-10, 10:39
Wish I had paid attention to this before my class with Garcia. Over 2k in two days on my G19 With Boresight Solutions grip reduction and 3.5 lbs connector, all fired with X200 attached. Didn't keep any records, and didn't clean it before the class.
That is damn impressive Rob.
I just want to be clear. You're saying you put more than 10,000 rounds of reloads through a double-stack 1911 without cleaning and without lubrication and had zero stoppages of any kind whatsoever?
Actually I did lube the gun before practice sessions once in awhile but yes, If you build it right it will run and use the right lube. Another SV recently won one of these 1000 round matches here in Texas where the rules were the same.
I document the malfunctions in the log book IF there happens to be one. Go figure this gun was built by Sandy in early '96, has been fired over 150,000 rounds in 14 years and I'll look but im pretty sure that in those 14 years, there hasn't been 14 malfunctions! I've had it caked with fouling and crud!
This one has a special serial number too. It goes in the casket with me when I go.
The gun will easily fire 6 rounds in a second (Bill drills under 2 seconds)...
YES, this gun will go 2000 rounds w/o care..Some of those early practice days were 1000 round days with no lube or maintenance...Folks like to bad mouth 1911/2011 guns but they can be equal to anything out there. I have an M&P and Glock 17s that will do this as well. I won't mention how I've had the ability to do this expect by PM. My current LTD gun is a nearly identical SV that hasn't been cleaned since last summer and has over 70,000 rounds through it.
Im not the only USPSA guy to do this...my current COLT AR for 3 gun is fixin to get it's third barrel in less than 10 years and I had to quit shooting it so often...
A27257
BLACK LION
03-18-10, 12:09
Is everyone using the same ammo for all 2k, or all different makes and types? I feel it is important for a more "controlled" experiment to go a full 2k with the same ammo rather than a mix of manufacturers, grains, bullet types, brass casing/steel casing, etc. Example, go a full 2K with WWB FMJ, then only HP bullets, then only steel cases, etc. One could even drop the round count to make it more feasible and less costly.
Although if your firearm can go a full 2K eating absolutely everything, then that could be another experiment in itself.
I agree for the most part since that would have been the ideal thing to do.
Those "remanufactured" rounds have a mixture of different cases since they are all the left overs swept up at the ranges. Who knows what kind of QC is behind thier process either. It comes down to the fact that its 75.00 for 250 rds of .45 / 150.00 for 500 etc... Places around here sell Wolf for 19.99 or more and lets not get into pricess of decent factory brass ammo @ 25.00 per 50rds.... I would be spending over 1k just to get to the 2k mark...I could buy two pistols, or a generator or a damn boat.
Thankfully my brother had some "donations" to his "academy fund" and about 5k rounds was part of it. I also have a buddy that has a few cases of wolf that we practice/train with so ammo has not been too much of an issue yet. I normally spend my $$(20.00 per 20rds) on "animal ammo" that I dont waste on no value targets.
Reloading is my next gig since thats where its at... I have been on my knees picking up all the good brass I can find....screw letting the range guys re-sell it.
Six Feet Under
03-21-10, 16:35
I've got 850 through my G19 right now with no cleaning or lube, and zero malfunctions of any kind, so I'll play.
I'm 400 rounds into it with a Browning Buck Mark URX .22lr, and all is well. This test is a good excuse to splurge on CCI Mini Mags.
If I wasn't so friggen uptight, my HK45 would go through as well. It just broke 10,185 and is running 0/0/0. More than 9,800 went through one mag. I can't get myself to let it go more than 600 rounds without cleaning and lubing it.
Alright I'm up for this, not seeing anyone else using this one so I'll be using a SIG P250 9mm. This is one of the 2-sum kits (full-size and sub-compact), is there a rule about swapping between these?:)
Just curious, but I will be doing this in the sub compact, mainly because of the magazine predictament (FS fit SC and waiting for my order of more to come in).
I'm up to 460 right now, only 68 have been through the FS, and one stoppage. This happened with some remanufactured crap were the primer was set too deep, wouldn't fire in another pistol either.
LandCruiser
03-31-10, 03:25
An M&P 40 has just entered the game. As if we haven't already had enough M&P's passing. I am 450 rounds into it, but it will take a few months. I go to the range 3 or 4 times a week, but I don't shoot that many rounds per session. It feels great so far. It is running the Mobil 1 lube mod.
I'm 1140 1500 1740 rounds in with my Noveske N4 basic (0/0/0), dunno if anyone else is trying it with their rifle...
I'm doing a Sig P226 9mm and Kimber Custom TLE II. Both have about 500 rounds through them for the test so far. No problems yet.
Since I'm a dumbass and let my CCW expire I might as well run my G19 through the challenge while I'm waiting on my new permit to arrive.
gtmtnbiker98
04-04-10, 16:50
Since I'm a dumbass and let my CCW expire I might as well run my G19 through the challenge while I'm waiting on my new permit to arrive.
That sucks.
I reported a few pages back that I was going to run my Ruger 22/45 MkIII, stock, for the challenge. Since I haven't had time to complete it, I thought I'd give a midpoint report.
I'm about halfway through the challenge now. Must be holding my mouth right or something when I shoot, but it's going much better than I expected. I should have been done by now but haven't had much time to shoot. Using Federal bulk pack ammo (the kind you get from Walmart in the 550 round packs). No failures of any type, not even ignition failures so far (knock on wood!)
The "Ultimate Clip Loader" is indispensable, by the way...
TheSmiter1
04-05-10, 00:00
I want to see some higher caliber Glocks go through the test, just to see if they make it. They have a bad rap and it would be interesting to see exactly where they choke up.
It would also be nice to see some go through very high round counts (above 30K), and then determine their weak points, what needed replacing, ect. Newer ones, of course.
Sorry if this already exists.
That sucks.
It was my own dumbass fault. I didn't realize until last month which means I carried for a year with an expired permit! :eek:
I want to see some higher caliber Glocks go through the test, just to see if they make it. They have a bad rap and it would be interesting to see exactly where they choke up.
It would also be nice to see some go through very high round counts (above 30K), and then determine their weak points, what needed replacing, ect. Newer ones, of course.
Sorry if this already exists.
Steve from ADCO ran his G21 for over 100K even freezing it and dropping it out of an airplane!
With the 2000 round. Can you wipe the slide with a rag or paper towel. To remove the Gun powder without using cleaning agent or oil.
A question for the group regarding the misfire protocol with respect to .22 rimfire cartridges. I'm 1,400 rounds in with a Buck Mark, but I had one misfire. The rim was deeply dented, and the round fired on the next attempt after being rotated 180 degrees in the chamber. Rotating a round is standard operating procedure among rimfire shooters, but is not consistent with the rules of the test which are clearly oriented toward center fire cartridges. We all know that center fire misfires rarely fire on the second attempt, making it an ammo issue when it fails to fire in another pistol. However, rimfire cartridges often fire on subsequent strikes to clean areas of the rim. Is a slightly different protocol warranted for rimfire misfires?
John_Wayne777
04-05-10, 17:54
My personal opinion would be to just count it in the stats for the sake of honesty. We all should be sophisticated enough in our understanding of firearms to realize that rimfire ammunition hardly defines the notion of reliability so it shouldn't weigh against the gun in the sane mind.
Remember that the point of the 2,000 round challenge is not necessarily to have a clean 2,000 rounds...it's to learn more about your weapon/ammo combination. Some hiccups here and there are not unusual, especially if you are brave enough to try it with a rimfire.
With the 2000 round. Can you wipe the barrel with a rag or paper towel. To remove the Gun powder without using cleaning agent or oil.
Wiping down the outside of the pistol so it doesn't stain your clothes is not a big deal, IMO. The purpose is no real cleaning or additional lubrication. I don't consider a wipe of the exterior of the pistol to be cleaning. If your goal is to remove crud to help the gun run better...well...that's a foul. Removing accumulated crud on the outside of the gun so it doesn't stain your clothes if you carry it, probably not a big deal. Just my opinion, however. The stricter you adhere to the spirit and letters of the "rules", the better.
Thanks. That will be the only part that gets cleaned the outside slide. To remove the gun powder.
I'm 750 into my test of my Beretta 92F. It's an old gun with only one problem since I had it; a worn extractor last spring. The conditions of this test have been all matches, IDPA and USPSA. One mach has been run in good weather. The others have ranged from cold, muddy to dry, blowing wind and dust. All ammo has been reloads except for 50 rounds of factory for my CCW class. No problems so far, the slide grinds when cycled and the only cleaning it has received is when it gets holstered and drawn. It's killing me though, I want to clean it so bad!
my Noveske N4 basic carbine hit 2,340 rounds today with zero issues :cool:
decodeddiesel
04-16-10, 20:36
my Noveske N4 basic carbine hit 2,340 rounds today with zero issues :cool:
Did you add any lube whats so ever during the 2000 rounds?
If you did then this post does not belong here.
If you did not, congrats!
Did you add any lube whats so ever during the 2000 rounds?
I followed the rules; no lube and no cleaning (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=629363)...
decodeddiesel
04-16-10, 22:06
Well then, well done sir!
CarbonCycles
04-17-10, 00:00
retarded...can't follow directions
I just started on the challenge with my Nighthawk GRP. So far I only have 114 rounds shot as part of the challenge. All of them were reloads at a USPSA match today. I have around 1,300 total rounds, with one failure to fully feed on a Remington Golden Saber hollow point.
Magic_Salad0892
04-19-10, 03:01
I'm going to do the 30,000 round test on my G17 Suppressed.
Already have 1300 through it without cleaning.
0/0/0
Marubahoppie
04-29-10, 14:56
Nobody showed up with a wheel gun?, that'd be a real test for fouling.
Nobody showed up with a wheel gun?, that'd be a real test for fouling.
No kidding! My 40 year old K22 is extremely accurate but won't get 300 rounds without the binding getting so bad you must clean the front of the cyclinder.
Wheelies ain't made for this sort of abuse. My Glock 9s eat it up.
Nobody showed up with a wheel gun?, that'd be a real test for fouling.
I'm working on it with a S&W 4" 686, 1000 rounds down and 1000 to go.
Marubahoppie
04-29-10, 15:49
I'm working on it with a S&W 4" 686, 1000 rounds down and 1000 to go.
Sweet, next question, and this is probably kind of stupid, because I'am sure the answer is yes,but just to make it clear If you've got a .38/.357, can use both for the purpose of this test?
thinking I might try this with my S&W60-18,if I can find the time.
Sweet, next question, and this is probably kind of stupid, because I'am sure the answer is yes,but just to make it clear If you've got a .38/.357, can use both for the purpose of this test?
thinking I might try this with my S&W60-18,if I can find the time.
Strictly has been hot .38 handloads using Bayou Bullets 158 grain SWC & Precision Cartridge Jacketed re-manufactured ammo. When I chrono'd the Precision Cartridge ammo it made IDPA power factor which makes it +p.
I am pleasantly surprised I haven't had issues with buildup on the cylinder face, but not yet.
Wish me luck.
After posting my results of my M&P Pro 9 last Sunday I'll shift to finishing my Gen 4 G17 which is at 1500 rounds now. And it's running really well so far.
Good luck RSO!
I hope the Smith wheelguns put on a great showing! I've never had to have any work done on my dozen or so but when I shot just those I couldn't afford this kinda volume of ammo so I never really knew. I did have a good bit of trouble with a couple of Colt Det. Specials way back in the day though.
Magic_Salad0892
04-30-10, 05:42
My friend's Colt Anaconda .45LC went 3000 rounds without cleaning before he went all OCD and cleaned every bit of it.
ruckusjuice
05-10-10, 13:27
Does anyone happen to have a CZ P-01 they'd be willing to try it with? I want to buy one of these pistols but would very much like to know if they could handle a challenge like this before I do so. I don't know anyone who owns one personally, so borrowing one is not an option.
I've decided to run my CZ-85 through the 2,000 round challenge. I'm 500+ rounds into it with no problems so far. I'm shooting BVAC reloads which is a mixture of brass, and has been 100% for 300+ rounds.
The gun had a little over 1,000 trouble free rounds before starting. If it goes 2,000 without a problem, then I plan on running it until it stops.
On my ammo budget and shooting schedule, It'll probably be the end of summer by the time I finish 2,000. This whole not cleaning thing is very freeing. Also, I'm running it hard in local matches and practicing.
HK P2000 V3 (DA/SA)
9mm
4-18-10
250 rounds UMC 115 gr FMJ
150 rounds Seller & Bellot 115 gr FMJ
100 rounds Fiocchi 115 gr FMJ
100 rounds Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ
4-24-10
350 rounds Blzer brass 115 gr FMJ
9 rounds Winchester white box 115 gr FMJ
4-25-10
60 rounds Geco 124 gr FMJ
70 rounds Blazer Brass 115 FMJ
4-28-10
230 rounds Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ
5-15-10 (Pistol past 10k rounds on this day)
500 rounds RWS 124 gr FMJ
300 rounds Ficocchi 115 gr FMJ
5-16-10
170 rounds Remington 115 gr +P JHP
5-19-10 (Pistol hit 11k rounds on this day)
300 rounds Ficocchi 115 gr FMJ
2589 TOTAL rounds.
Stoppages: Two failures to lock back on last round with me. My friend had a few as well but I was not watching him shoot.
Malfunctions: NONE
Breakages: NONE
Notes: Pistol had 8,411 rounds of various types of ammo before test began.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a285/loupav/CIMG3207.jpg
I love my P2000, now it's time to try this with my HK45! :D
AnimalMother556
05-23-10, 12:49
Does anyone happen to have a CZ P-01 they'd be willing to try it with? I want to buy one of these pistols but would very much like to know if they could handle a challenge like this before I do so. I don't know anyone who owns one personally, so borrowing one is not an option.
I have one, you got 2,000 rounds of 9mm I can borrow?
I don't shoot as much as some of the guys on this board, but I have had the gun 3 years and it has fired EVERY time without fail, though I've never tested it this harshly. I did fire an UTZ pretzel barrel full of handloads through it with my brother one afternoon, a little over 600 rounds, no failures. Ammo was given to me as payment by a friends father for helping him take down the rest of a fallen tree.
BLACK LION
05-24-10, 15:51
Hey Lou. Remember that HK USP you helped convince me to buy??
I am looking at your pics and mine looks pretty much identical after it ate more than 2k rounds without a clean here recently.
I cant seem to get the black off the muxxle end of the lower half. That coyote tan wont let go of it.
I also noticed that when I cleaned it, some of the grit seeped into the trigger. I was able to get it out with carb cleaner with the straw attached.
I never adimately neglected a firearm for so long BUT it is a pleasure to know it could have went 2 or 3 times that long without any cleaning. It also feels much smoother now that it had a detail stripping and a liberal amount of Royal Purple caressing its parts.
Me? Help to convince someone to purchase an HK?.....Never! :D
Oh well, I didn't know you bought the tan frame USP, very cool! But I wouldn't know how to clean it since I have no experience. With the black frames, wipe it down and it's pretty much gone.
However I would suggest trying some MPRO7. That's my favorite cleaner and I use it for all my weapons now.
That P2000 slide, recoil guide assembly and barrel were left in MPRO7 for about three hours before I started scrubbing. They came out very clean.
Good luck!
Glock 34 shooting an assortment of ammo, mostly WWB, S&B and A&E ammo.
3150rds after this weekend. No cleaning except for the initial cleaning on the gun when I got it 5months ago.
Ammo
1700rds of 147gr FMJ Flat Nose A&E
450rds of 124gr S&B FMJRN
1000rds of 115gr WWB FMJ
No stoppages until this past weekend at USPSA match in Ohio. Had multiple FTF's and my slide lock pin actually fell out of my gun.
Now, I do a TON of dry fire training with this gun. Lots of racking the slide, empty mag reloads, dry fire drills.
All in all Im very happy with this gun. Im gonna clean it now as the striker was so gummed up it was to sluggish to strike the primers. Luckily one of the RO's shoots a G34 identical to mine(and is a Glock armorer) and let me use his to finish the day while he figured out what was wrong with mine
BLACK LION
05-25-10, 10:41
Me? Help to convince someone to purchase an HK?.....Never! :D
Oh well, I didn't know you bought the tan frame USP, very cool! But I wouldn't know how to clean it since I have no experience. With the black frames, wipe it down and it's pretty much gone.
However I would suggest trying some MPRO7. That's my favorite cleaner and I use it for all my weapons now.
That P2000 slide, recoil guide assembly and barrel were left in MPRO7 for about three hours before I started scrubbing. They came out very clean.
Good luck!
Thanks.
I guess tan USPs arent on the DOJ list here so they are LE only unless attaines thru private party transfer. Very rare around these parts...especially in .45. That definately made the deal sweeter.
I have some KG and OTIS cleaners. I will try soaking it. I dont mind it since it is a tool and tools arent supposed to stay pretty.
I was troubled with the crunch I heard in the trigger after the scum seeped into the springs while running from the cleaner... I blasted most of it out but it really came out after a lube, some dry fire and a day of live fire practice.
My XD .45 tactical proved its worth and surpassed the 2500 round mark before a good cleaning. Side by side with the USP...the XD being more accurate and less bucky...the USP not flinching a bit and eating everything.
Had about 5 FTC's on the XD due to underpowered reloads but a slap on the slide and I was back on target.
I am going to begin this journey shortly with my new G17.
As for the 1911 forum guys that responded, well perhaps they are not military, nor LE. Do they need their weapons to run for 2K rounds without cleaning or additional lube? Not in the least. Does this kind of test mean anything to their shooting sport / ownership reality? Not in the least. Are they "shooters" so to speak? Well, perhaps that is a subjective viewpoint and may be highly dependent on the individual, but they are firearms enthusiasts that is good enough in my book.
As for 1911's, I own and shoot them. Hell I own a lot of different brands of pistols. Do I need to run any of my pistols through this type of 2K, no clean, or adding lube test to prove them worthy of me owning them or as a basis to chose one for duty use? Not in my book, as I have never done this with any pistol no matter the maker. I think about the most I have gone is around 700-800 without at least adding lube. As has already been admitted, the 2K number was picked quite arbitrarily. Does a LE or military duty pistol ever go 2K without cleaning or lube? Well if we say, it should be able to, well then why not 5K or 10K? What defines this number? The creator of this challenge coming up with an arbitrary number and that being taken as being the benchmark of pistol worthiness?
I am not knocking this "for fun" test as even I am entertained by it, but I am also keeping it in perspective. If a pistol runs well for 100K and is properly maintained, cleaned and lubed, does that make it any less worthy of a pistol for 99.9% of the population, LE and military included, than one that has ran for 2K rounds without lube? If you are the .1% commonly running a pistol over 2K rounds without being able to clean and/or add lube and your life or the lives of others depend on this ability for the pistol to reliably do so, then by all means you should run all of your pistols through this test. However I think you should go well beyond the 2K mark and perhaps triple that number to call it reliable.
For the most part I agree with you. Personally, I feel that shooting a pistol for 2000 rounds without cleaning or at least lubing every couple of hundred rounds is pointless and abusive to the gun. I can't imagine a circumstance in real life where a gun would be expected to used for 2000 rounds without routine maintenence. It just doesn't happen, not even in Iraq or Afganistan. I find it shocking how many people are willing to subject a brand new gun to such abuse.
Littlelebowski
11-10-10, 19:51
For the most part I agree with you. Personally, I feel that shooting a pistol for 2000 rounds without cleaning or at least lubing every couple of hundred rounds is pointless and abusive to the gun. I can't imagine a circumstance in real life where a gun would be expected to used for 2000 rounds without routine maintenence. It just doesn't happen, not even in Iraq or Afganistan. I find it shocking how many people are willing to subject a brand new gun to such abuse.
Can you document exactly what this "abuse" is with pictures or some sort of data showing us how a whopping 2k rds "abused" the firearm?
As far as Iraq/Afghanistan and the use of weapons there, you should read more.
If you would read more about people actually using their modern firearms, you'd see that 2k rds without cleaning or lube is a good test of how reliable your weapon actually is.
For the most part I agree with you. Personally, I feel that shooting a pistol for 2000 rounds without cleaning or at least lubing every couple of hundred rounds is pointless and abusive to the gun. I can't imagine a circumstance in real life where a gun would be expected to used for 2000 rounds without routine maintenence. It just doesn't happen, not even in Iraq or Afganistan. I find it shocking how many people are willing to subject a brand new gun to such abuse.
Abusive...? I guess it all depends on perspective. I've done and continue to things like this and worse because I want to know my weapons limits.
Can you document exactly what this "abuse" is with pictures or some sort of data showing us how a whopping 2k rds "abused" the firearm?
It's my personal opinion. My apologies if you weren't able figure that out.
As far as Iraq/Afghanistan and the use of weapons there, you should read more.
Can you document the use of a handgun for 2000 rounds in either Irag or Afganistan? The only time you see it is in some kind of "test".
If you would read more about people actually using their modern firearms, you'd see that 2k rds without cleaning or lube is a good test of how reliable your weapon actually is.
Destructive testing is a valuable means of determining the durability of any manufactured product. It's usually done with a very small sample. It's done until something breaks or fails in some way to gain knowledge about how to improve the product. We've all seen those commercials where a machine opens and closes a car door or some device pounds and roll over a mattress.
"Torture" testing a sample of a particular firearm serves the same purpose and certainly make for a great magazine article. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to do that with their personal firearm.
Abusive...? I guess it all depends on perspective. I've done and continue to things like this and worse because I want to know my weapons limits.
The problem is that you don't really know what that limit is until you've had a catastrophic failure of some sort. The future consequences of such tests are unknown to you. The gun may fail you when you need it most.
Littlelebowski
11-11-10, 08:53
Wait a minute. You define 2k rds without cleaning or additional lube as "destructive testing?"
What sort of fragile weapons are you carrying?
ChicagoTex
11-11-10, 09:16
What sort of fragile weapons are you carrying?
1st gen BHP .40S&W:sarcastic:
Wait a minute. You define 2k rds without cleaning or additional lube as "destructive testing?"
What sort of fragile weapons are you carrying?
I've already said that I feel that 2k round without cleaning or lubing is abusive. For some guns it could very well be a destructive test. The "challenge" here isn't limited to any specific brand. What I carry is irrelevant.
This is supposed to be a discussion thread not an argument thread. I've already stated that my views are personal opinions. If you don't agree with them, say so, state your case and move on. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.
Littlelebowski
11-11-10, 10:12
Yet, you did not clarify what "abusive" entails.
The most interesting part of these tests IMO is proof positive that what LAV and Pat Rogers and others have been saying; that fouling per se isn't much of a factor in reliability for a sound design is quite definitively proven true.
That and seeing the excellent engineering for reliability of certain designs.
As for abuse . . . I don't think the soot is going to wear away the steel components. Not sure by what mechanism this specific "abuse" through infrequent cleaning would cause excessive wear. I'd be willing to learn though.
Yet, you did not clarify what "abusive" entails.
[quote=elrodcod] Personally, I feel that shooting a pistol for 2000 rounds without cleaning or at least lubing every couple of hundred rounds is pointless and abusive to the gun.
I can't say it any plainer than that. It's akin to driving your car for 20,000 miles before your next oil change. All is proves is that it worked..........this time. It doesn't tell you anything about the reliability or durability of the gun. No real knowledge is gained, you still don't know what the limits are or if you've set up the gun (or car) for a future failure. All it does is give you bragging rights.
A better test would be to keep shooting it until it quits. Tear it down and analyse why it stopped running. The problem with that is, unless something broke, the answer is going to be self evident, either excessive fouling or galling. No surprise there. A realistic test would be a long term endeavour. Perhaps splitting the difference by shooting 500 round intervals with cleaning and lubing between them. Do that until the gun fails & you'll gain some real knowledge about it.
eternal24k
11-12-10, 07:59
why don't you start a separate thread, if you don't like it get out, don't hijack
John_Wayne777
11-12-10, 08:15
I can't say it any plainer than that. It's akin to driving your car for 20,000 miles before your next oil change.
It really isn't. Using the car analogy, the 3,000 mile oil change was a maintenance recommendation because of the types of oils and filters available and the engines that depended on them. Today with synthetic blends and better filters under the right conditions one can often go far longer than 3,000 miles between oil changes with absolutely no risk to the engine of the vehicle. Tuneups used to be required every 30,000 miles, but manufacturers these days are putting out engines that do not require a tuneup until 100,000 miles.
It's no different with firearms. Modern handguns of good quality should be able to do 2,000 rounds without cleaning or additional lubrication (providing they are properly lubricated to start with) without any trouble or any risk of damage. It's understood that the most extreme conditions they will be exposed to during that 2,000 rounds is the actual firing. If someone is diving in salt water with the pistol or is dragging it through sand then the maintenance required changes.
If, however, all they are doing is shooting the weapon it will be fine.
I'd wager that over zealous cleaning has damaged more handguns than the 2000 round challenge has.
ChicagoTex
11-12-10, 16:18
I'd wager that over zealous cleaning has damaged more handguns than the 2000 round challenge has.
I kinda wanna say yes, but mostly no. With the exception of jacking up your barrel's crown from sloppy muzzle to breach cleaning or taking off a lot of finish unnecessarily, there's not a lot of harm "excessive cleaning" can really do.
I find it very hard to believe that this is the case. Every Kimber I have(3) has needed spring replacement after about 2K rounds. You are telling me you have over 9K with no cleaning and have not had any FTF?????
Pistol: Kimber 1911
Caliber: 45 Automatic
Ammunition: 230gr LRN over Alliant Bullseye for 177,000 power factor. Mixed brass.
Dates of testing: December 27th 2009 - January 2nd 2010
Total rounds fired: 2,025
Stoppages: 0
Malfunctions: 0
Breakages: 0
Notes:
This pistol had ~7,375 rounds through it before the test. Despite being very fouled, the pistol still cycles like butter. Slide has not slowed down.
My bad.. Moved my 2000 round test summary to the correct thread.
It really isn't. Using the car analogy, the 3,000 mile oil change was a maintenance recommendation because of the types of oils and filters available and the engines that depended on them. Today with synthetic blends and better filters under the right conditions one can often go far longer than 3,000 miles between oil changes with absolutely no risk to the engine of the vehicle. Tuneups used to be required every 30,000 miles, but manufacturers these days are putting out engines that do not require a tuneup until 100,000 miles.
It's no different with firearms. Modern handguns of good quality should be able to do 2,000 rounds without cleaning or additional lubrication (providing they are properly lubricated to start with) without any trouble or any risk of damage. It's understood that the most extreme conditions they will be exposed to during that 2,000 rounds is the actual firing. If someone is diving in salt water with the pistol or is dragging it through sand then the maintenance required changes.
If, however, all they are doing is shooting the weapon it will be fine.
I don't buy it. Who determined "should"? Where'd you read that, Gun & Ammo? Synthetic oils generally double the maintenence cycle to 7500 miles, if it was ok to go 20k between changes the makers would say so. Same with guns, if it was ok to go 2k rounds without routine maintenence you'd see it in the owners manual.
Littlelebowski
12-13-10, 09:47
I don't buy it. Who determined "should"? Where'd you read that, Gun & Ammo? Synthetic oils generally double the maintenence cycle to 7500 miles, if it was ok to go 20k between changes the makers would say so. Same with guns, if it was ok to go 2k rounds without routine maintenence you'd see it in the owners manual.
Yes of course, the owners manuals are NOT governed by liability lawyers! It's all making sense now!
ChicagoTex
12-13-10, 10:41
There really needs to an emoticon for beating one's head against a wall.
This is ridiculous. Any weapon that's significantly damaged by 2000 rounds without lube is a weapon I've got no use for anyway. Thankfully, outside of garbage like Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, and Taurus that's not a very tall order.
William B.
12-13-10, 10:53
I find it very hard to believe that this is the case. Every Kimber I have(3) has needed spring replacement after about 2K rounds. You are telling me you have over 9K with no cleaning and have not had any FTF?????
I think he's saying that his total round count before the 2,000 round challenge was 7,375. He only fired 2,025 rounds without maintenance.
Yes of course, the owners manuals are NOT governed by liability lawyers! It's all making sense now!
You're helping to support my argument that 2k without cleaning or lubing is abusive to the gun. Why would the lawyers withhold that information if there wasn't some risk of failure associated with it? Why wouldn't the manufacturers use it in their advertising? I know these are rhetorical questions but I'll state the obvious anyway.....because it'll cost them big time when someone gets killed because his dirty gun malfunctioned or a critical part failed.
To reiterate; I don't care what kind of "challenge", this one or any other, do with their guns. It's my opinion, however, that it's pointless and doesn't prove anything.
John_Wayne777
12-13-10, 12:42
I don't buy it. Who determined "should"?
You are aware that the military trials of the 1911 waaaay back when involved shooting 1,000 rounds through the sample weapons between cleaning and lubrication, right?
If a handgun the military was looking at had to handle that without problem 100 years ago, I figure it's probably OK for a modern handgun to handle 2,000 rounds without the world ending.
GermanSynergy
12-13-10, 13:38
I shot 1,000 rounds thru my M&P 9 outdoors on Saturday, and it has at least another 1,000 thru it since it was cleaned or lubed last.
I don't recall any jams or issues as a result of this, and may run another 1,000 or so rounds thru it just out of pure spite :D
You are aware that the military trials of the 1911 waaaay back when involved shooting 1,000 rounds through the sample weapons between cleaning and lubrication, right?
If a handgun the military was looking at had to handle that without problem 100 years ago, I figure it's probably OK for a modern handgun to handle 2,000 rounds without the world ending.
So you're saying that it's you who determined "Should". That puts it in the "personal opinion" category. That doesn't carry much weight even if you're one of those "industry professionals" on this website. Military trials of firing 1k through sample weapons isn't quite the same thing as firing twice that through someone's personal firearm whose life may depend on it functioning properly sometime down the road. I wonder what happened to those sample 1911s. I bet they were retired from service after the trials.
I think I'll continue my usual maintenance regimen of cleaning & lubing after every range session and lubing every 250-300 rounds if it's a long one. Ya'll have fun & stay safe.
John_Wayne777
12-13-10, 15:40
So you're saying that it's you who determined "Should". That puts it in the "personal opinion" category.
I did not design the Glock, nor did I write testing procedures for agencies that do far worse things to firearms to ensure that they'll stand up to the requirements placed on modern firearms.
I think I'll continue my usual maintenance regimen of cleaning & lubing after every range session and lubing every 250-300 rounds if it's a long one. Ya'll have fun & stay safe.
Knock yourself out...but don't insist that your fastidious maintenance procedures are required for every product on the market to remain in working order...
...because they aren't.
I took my new M&P9C out of the box today and put 489 rounds through it with no problems. No cleaning or lube of any kind, just fresh out of the box from the factory. I am going to put 2000 rounds through it before I do anything. I guess I am abusing my gun and it will die a quick death.:sarcastic:
Littlelebowski
12-13-10, 20:38
I'm just going to nip off over to the mechanic and have my truck's points greased......What? You say that technology has evolved and we no longer have to do this? LIAR!
At least I can change the oil every 500 miles still.....
So you're saying that it's you who determined "Should". That puts it in the "personal opinion" category. That doesn't carry much weight even if you're one of those "industry professionals" on this website. Military trials of firing 1k through sample weapons isn't quite the same thing as firing twice that through someone's personal firearm whose life may depend on it functioning properly sometime down the road. I wonder what happened to those sample 1911s. I bet they were retired from service after the trials.
I think I'll continue my usual maintenance regimen of cleaning & lubing after every range session and lubing every 250-300 rounds if it's a long one. Ya'll have fun & stay safe.
I'm just curious as to what exactly you think is happening to the firearm if it is fired for more that 250 rounds without cleaning or lube? Do you perceive the barrel as being worn out quicker, or accelerated wear on the small parts? Do feel that you are some how wearing the firearm out quicker?
We gotta get some 1911 guys in on this.
I don't my 1911s could without lots of oil.
If I had and old loose one, I'd try the challenge!
I don't my 1911s could without lots of oil.
If I had and old loose one, I'd try the challenge!
I've already started with a brand new bone stock Springfield MC Operator. Took it out of the box, stripped and cleaned it, lubed it up with Slip EWL and started shooting. Just passed the 300 rd mark, no problems yet. I'm getting another case this week so should pass the 1,000 rd mark mid January.
I have to say this is an interesting thread, along with it's counterpart on the 1911 forum. I'm not surprised that the plastic pistols can go 2k rounds without additional lubrication. Modern weapon design has come along way in terms of reducing friction and wear points, and modern gun oil has gotten a whole lot slicker since the old days.
If you take a good look at most modern polymer handguns, they don't have full length receiver rails like a 1911 or a CZ has. Even Beretta uses partial length frame rails in their 92 series pistols. Why do I bring this up? Because most people (including me) who pay big bucks to have a 1911's tightened to within an .001 of it's life, aren't going to try and go through 2k worth of ammo without some additional lubrication. My high end 1911's are all target pistols. I've gone through over 15k of .45 ACP rounds in the last three years, and I run my target guns wet because I don't want to loose the accuracy I paid for due to too much metal on metal contact. I've seen the end result of lack of lubrication first hand, and it isn't pretty or inexpensive.
I can't say I blame anyone on the 1911 forum for not wanting to subject a $3k pistol to the this kind of abuse, but I'm a bit surprised no one with a fairly stock Colt, Springer, S&W, or Sig 1911 didn't step up to the plate. My carry piece is an HK45c, and we all know that type of pistol has already been beaten with the ammo stick to the tune of 50k rounds. I've also got a P220 Sport with about 50 rounds through it, but I've got exactly two magazines for that pistol and don't expect to buy too many more any time soon. I've got about 30 magazines for the 1911, and that in and of itself makes using that type of pistol more attractive to me because I can shoot more and load less. I've got a NIB never fired Sig 1911 that I'm thinking about using for this little experiment. It's not a particularly tight gun. I'd rate it a little tighter than either of my USGI 1911's, but much looser that any of my 'tuned' pistols. I took a year off shooting due to some personal commitments, so maybe I'll break in the Sig on this little challenge.
My P2000 V3 9mm has 11k rds down the pipe. My Mission (I hate the word "goal") This year is to break 15k before June. Depending on how that goes I may take it up to 20k. We'll see. I'll post updated here every 500-1000 rds or so.
I already have 3k rds ready for her!
jonconsiglio
01-05-11, 12:45
I think I'll continue my usual maintenance regimen of cleaning & lubing after every range session and lubing every 250-300 rounds if it's a long one. Ya'll have fun & stay safe.
You know, most of us do this to a gun we're NOT carrying, so it won't have any impact on our safety. Some may, but I imagine they know their gun well enough to still be confident.
Have you ever been to a handgun class? The ones I've been to go through 1,000 to 2,000 rounds in a couple days. How did the instructors or students feel when you took time out of class to clean your guns?
I would think if you've had any serious training (I'm not saying you haven't) you'd change your view on the 250 to 300 round cleanings.
Anyway,
I've put my Wilson CQB, Nighthawk Talon II, Glock 17 Gen 4 and M&P 9 through the test. All did quite well. I posted the details in the sticky.
I can't say I blame anyone on the 1911 forum for not wanting to subject a $3k pistol to the this kind of abuse, but I'm a bit surprised no one with a fairly stock Colt, Springer, S&W, or Sig 1911 didn't step up to the plate.
I've put my Wilson and one of my two Nighthawks through it. I'll be putting my next Nighthawk through it as well. They ran just fine after the test and accuracy was still sub 2" at 25 yards with both.
I cleaned them and used Tetra Gun Grease before the test and both got a few drops of Gun Butter ever 500 rounds or so, roughly. I also have run my VBOB and my other Nighthawk regularly close to 1,000 rounds with no cleaning. If one is a bullseye shooter at 50+ yards, I understand not wanting to put their guns through the test, but for 95% of high end 1911 owners, I'd imagine they won't notice, if their actually is any degradation. I have a friend who beats the hell out of his Nighthawks and one has well over 20,000 rounds in two years and is still near as accurate as day one.
Jonathan
I wander if someone will do the challenge with a jennings 9mm just for laughs.
I should have posted this awhile back but forgot. I'm also working on a 2000 round challenge with my Kimber Custom TLE II (1185rds so far), Sig P226 .22lr conversion slide (1500 rds so far), Glock 20 10mm (100rds so far), Glock 20 w/ .40S&W conversion slide (700rds so far).
Pistol: SIG P226 Classic (Purchased as .22lr then ordered the 9mm slide)
Caliber: 9x19mm
Date Ammo Type Qty Fail
3/24/2010 Brown Bear FMJ 40 0
3/24/2010 WWB 115gr FMJ 100 0
3/24/2010 Champion Arms Bulk FMJ 100 0
3/24/2010 Magtech 115gr FMJ 50 0
3/24/2010 RWS 124gr FMJ 50 0
3/29/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 100 0
3/29/2010 Magtech 115gr FMJ 50 0
4/8/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 100 0
4/8/2010 Brown Bear 115gr FMJ 200 0
4/8/2010 Remington UMC 115gr FMJ 50 0
5/4/2010 Brown Bear 115gr FMJ 300 0
5/4/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 50 0
5/4/2010 Blazer Brass 124gr FMJ 50 0
5/25/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 100 0
5/25/2010 WWB 115gr FMJ 100 0
6/16/2010 Federal 115gr FMJ 100 0
6/16/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 100 0
6/16/2010 WWB 115gr FMJ 100 0
6/22/2010 USA Ammo 115gr FMJ 100 0
6/22/2010 RWS 124gr FMJ 200 0
Total 2040 0 100.00%
Notes: This pistol had 1114 rounds through it before I began this test and have since put 600 round through it. I have also fired well over 10,000 rounds of .22lr during this test as well. I cleaned the .22lr slide but not the frame.
I have a 4.5in XDM from late '09 with a pretty high round count already... If someone donated some 9mm, I wouldn't have a problem pulling the trigger 2k times in one sitting! :p I'll post pics and everythingggg!
I wander if someone will do the challenge with a jennings 9mm just for laughs.
Oh.. JFC... My stepdad has one of those POS in his truck for "self defense"... I keep tellin him he needs a different gun, cause he can't get past 10 rounds without a failure of some sort...
Personally, I would be interested in seeing how some of the guns generally regarded to be pieces of shit would fare in this type of testing. The statistically insignificant sample sizes would do nothing to improve a brand's image IF a given gun by one of the companies made it 2,000 rounds without failure, but I would like to see it nonetheless.
I'd do it if my financial affairs were more in order.
davebee456
04-10-11, 23:36
I am scared to do the 500 round no cleaning challenge
Can magazines be cleaned?
Magic_Salad0892
05-02-11, 11:21
Can magazines be cleaned?
Debatable, but generally looked down upon.
I just finished posting my 2k round report. Did anyone using a 1911 use grease on their rails instead of oil? If so, did it hold up well? I started mine with oil and by the end it was bone dry. My trial started as a 1911 v tokarev challenge and I saw this thread a few months ago and figured I would go for it. I am wondering if I made a poor decision with my lube. Just curious, thanks...
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