View Full Version : Opinion Journal item on student preparedness and value of a degree
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703523504574604443236619168.html
"By BEN WILDAVSKY
When President Barack Obama announced earlier this year that the U.S. should aim to have the world's highest proportion of college graduates by 2020, he was staking out an ambitious but hardly a maverick goal. It is widely recognized, by Republicans and Democrats alike, that the gap between the earnings of high-school graduates and college graduates has become a chasm in recent decades. More college graduates would mean more prosperity for individuals—and for the nation, too. Bowing to this logic, governments around the world—from China and India to the Middle East—are trying to boost college attendance for their knowledge-hungry populations.
As Mr. Obama's goal suggests, there is plenty of room for improvement in the U.S. While nearly seven in 10 high-school graduates go on directly to two- or four-year colleges (up from 49% in 1972), many students are poorly prepared for college and end up taking remedial courses. And huge numbers fail to graduate. Reformers believe, not without reason, that such problems can be solved in part by improved high-school preparation and better college instruction. But is it possible that aiming to increase the number of American college graduates is actually a fool's errand?
A few skeptics think so. Most prominent among them is Charles Murray, who in "Real Education" (2008) argued that most young people are just not smart enough to go to college and should be encouraged to take other paths instead, especially vocational training. Now comes Jackson Toby with "The Lowering of Higher Education in America," a provocative variation on Mr. Murray's theme.
Mr. Toby draws on social-science data as well as personal experience—he taught sociology at Rutgers University for 50 years before retiring a few years ago—to decry the intellectual conditions that prevail on the American campus. Sidestepping the matter of students' innate abilities, he blames low academic standards mostly on the easy availability of financial aid to undergraduates who are unqualified for college-level coursework.
Early on, Mr. Toby concedes that education has become the country's "main economic escalator." But he is alarmed at how few students are prepared to meet even the minimal demands of a real college education. He faults lax college-admission standards that give high schools little incentive to push their students harder. Too many undergrads can't write with minimal competence or understand basic cultural references. Students often take silly, politicized courses. And they feel entitled to inflated grades: Mr. Toby reports that one of his students spewed obscenities at him for ending the young man's straight-A record.
Perhaps this kind of experience accounts for Mr. Toby's seeming bitterness toward unserious students, whom he calls "unprepared, half-asleep catatonics who drift in late and leave early." Most undergrads, Mr. Toby suggests, enjoy a steady diet of extracurricular hedonism while skating through their coursework (though it's unclear how this claim jibes with his complaints about low graduation rates).
Worst of all, he says, students have been misled about the value of their degrees. Yes, a bachelor of arts degree commands a wage premium, but less because of a graduate's acquired knowledge than because of the signal that his degree sends to employers about the abilities that got him into college and about a variety of soft skills, such as reliability and problem-solving capacity. Graduates in undemanding majors—in the humanities, for example, or most of the social sciences—are unlikely to earn what their more studious counterparts in, say, engineering can. They are thus disproportionately likely to be saddled with debt and prone to default, Mr. Toby argues. He claims that this pattern amounts to the kind of unsound lending that led to our recent credit crisis—one that he darkly suggests may soon be repeated in higher education. He believes that today's "promiscuous" system of college grants and loans—which, at the federal level, is based largely on financial need—ought to be retooled to focus on academic merit.
But his platform is less radical than his book's subtitle promises ("Why Financial Aid Should Be Based on Student Performance"). He acknowledges that quite a few states already have merit-based aid. And in a concession to political reality he would continue the federal Pell Grant program, which focuses on need alone. Mr. Toby's main proposal, then, is to require good grades and test scores from those seeking federal student loans. This requirement, he believes, would improve incentives for academic performance and mitigate the inevitable trade-off between widening access to college and maintaining educational standards.
Strangely, Mr. Toby does not address the biggest objection to merit aid, which is that it usually subsidizes middle- and upper-income students who would go to college anyway. By contrast, need-based aid often provides make-or-break help to low-income applicants: Without grants and student loans, they would probably not go to college at all.
Mr. Toby sees reduced college opportunities as the price of keeping under-prepared students off campus. But that is one trade-off we should not make, especially when a college degree carries so much value in the marketplace. Our vast and varied college system, to its credit, enrolls all sorts of students. Mr. Toby delineates the system's manifold shortcomings, which badly need to be remedied. And to be sure, academic merit deserves a place in our financial aid system. But the indisputable benefits of college ought to be spread more widely, not less.
Mr. Wildavsky, a senior fellow at the Kauffman Foundation and a guest scholar at the Brookings Institution, is the author of "The Great Brain Race: How Global Universities Are Reshaping the World," to be published next spring."
I am posting this is as a conversation-starter for some of us who participated in a rather heated thread about liberal indoctrination on campus. Perhaps we can leave that particular topic aside, and focus on another theme that came up in that thread- student preparedness and the actual merit of mass attendance at our universities..?
Personally, I think that society pushes kids too much wrt college enrollment. Large numbers of students- many of whom are probably in class (or not!) marking time until they find something else to do-and grade inflation serve to devalue the degrees of everyone to a certain extent. What do you guys think?
Outlander Systems
12-23-09, 11:24
Grant had some excellent commentary in regards to this topic, if I can find the thread.
Universities, sadly, are businesses first and foremost.
I know too many people with degrees working for peanuts. Here in GA, just about anyone with a pulse can get a HOPE Scholarship, and with the decline in standards in High Schools, I do mean anyone with a pulse.
The only people from my sphere of HS buddies that made anything of themselves, had a positive, not negative, savings, are the ones who answered Uncle Sam's call.
ForTehNguyen
12-23-09, 11:33
Dept of Education has dumbed down the meaning of an HS degree enough to where employers have to ask for bachelors degrees now. Soon the bachelor's degree is next. Not to mention the cost is going up because of govt giving every kid a loan that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise (sound like the housing market?). This is why college tuition cost are rocketing, why would colleges lower cost when every kid walks in with a govt backed loan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIcfMMVcYZg
Outlander Systems
12-23-09, 11:35
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational/watch/v1112248bREQ2h9t
ForTehNguyen
12-23-09, 11:41
college cost/benefit ratio has been eroding heavily. Cost is dramatically increasing but the benefit isn't really going up as much. Nowadays you have to get real good professional degrees to make your loans and time worth it now. Yet education leaders keep telling you bachelors = success as a flat statement. You gotta get a certain bachelors to make it worth it, and even that is getting eroded. College is becoming more and more of a rip off and its due to govt meddling. College was never meant to be for everyone, but too bad the govt keeps ruining the meaning of an HS degree, to where everyone thinks they have to go to college to stand a chance. Vocational and trade schools are highly underrated and teach you far more marketable skills than a generic bachelors.
Is College Worth it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_24uSPedM
Business_Casual
12-23-09, 11:42
Dept of Education has dumbed down the meaning of an HS degree enough to where employers have to ask for bachelors degrees now.
Bingo.
M_P
College is pushed too hard as "the" next step after high school. College is not for everyone, nor should it be. That might sound elitist to some, but I don't mean it should exclude students, just that it shouldn't be a place to linger for a few years before joining the workforce doing something you could have done perfectly fine without a degree at all.
Here's a clue: if you graduate college with a higher principle balance on your student loans than on your starting salary, you screwed up! Maybe there are some exceptions for jobs that start by paying peanuts and then can reach above-average pay levels but generally speaking if you graduate with a $35k/year job and a $50k student loan bill, you must have failed your economics classes.
Colleges don't care, though. As someone else said, they're businesses, and they want to students. What's really bad is that they don't aim to spit out productive employees and workers -- they want to produce grad students who will hang around another few years, pay them money, and work on projects that bring in grant money (and prestige, and the students and grant money that follow).
The country needs a well-balanced workforce, but we're tipping in the direction of all Chiefs and no Indians. Everyone complains about outsourcing and the weakening industrial base in this country, and then turns around and says everyone should have a college degree? Well of course we all need degrees, so we can all sit around in our offices telling the workers of the world what to to do while drawing a paycheck and benefits.....wait, what? There are no workers left to actually do the work?
Meanwhile you've got a bunch of grads with degrees that feel entitled to a fat paycheck because they've got a degree, even though they've got no experience and little skills (because college was too busy prepping them to be good research assistants to actually give them career-building skills). Just another symptom in our disease of replacing "self respect" with "self esteem". It's all about me, I'm special don't you know that?
And don't even get me started on that corrupt lunatic fringe that is at best allowed and at worst, praised, out there in the world of self-righteous, elitist, useless intellectualism. Academia Nuts.
College is pushed too hard as "the" next step after high school. College is not for everyone, nor should it be. That might sound elitist to some, but I don't mean it should exclude students, just that it shouldn't be a place to linger for a few years before joining the workforce doing something you could have done perfectly fine without a degree at all.
You could not possibly be more correct. There is an incredible amount of pressure, an expectation really, that all high school kids will go to college. In a lot of ways, a bachelors degree is today what a high school diploma was 30 years ago. It used to be that there weren't as many colleges, fewer people in each of them, and the people who got in and went were the good students who were capable of, and expected to perform at, a high level. It was not for everybody and the work and grading at colleges was serious. Now it's a joke at all but a few schools. Even the Ivy League schools have incredible grade inflation.
The problem is that "everyone" goes to college now, there are a lot more colleges but a lot of them suck, and a lot of the people going to them should be doing something else. It is amazing how many people I know, usually younger folks, who meandered their way through a 2nd or 3rd rate college (and in some cases even grad school or a top school) who are dumber than rocks, write at a 2nd grade level, and now work menial jobs. It's tough to say for sure, but I doubt that most of them were any better off after 4 years in college from the standpoint of knowledge, skills, or ability, as they quite frankly didn't belong there in the first place. But, they have that piece of paper that says they're "educated.":rolleyes:
Does anybody here listen to Prager? IIRC he rails against touchy-feely graduate programs. I am paraphrasing, but he routinely says that he believes that the folks with the least common sense and the least *wisdom* (vs. "intelligence" or "knowledge") are the ones most likely to have gone to grad school for stuff like gender studies, sociology, education, etc. The truly dumb are the ones who came from the Ivy Leagues.:eek::D
dmancornell
12-23-09, 15:04
The truly dumb are the ones who came from the Ivy Leagues.:eek::D
Thanks for the compliment!
However, engineering graduate programs (EE for me) are a different world compared to the liberal arts programs, which are completely infected with leftists, statists, and other undesirables.
NMBigfoot02
12-23-09, 15:28
However, engineering graduate programs (EE for me) are a different world compared to the liberal arts programs, which are completely infected with leftists, statists, and other undesirables.
This. GA Tech ME here.
To quote from Caddyshack, "The world needs ditch diggers too!"
EzGoingKev
12-23-09, 15:35
It is amazing how many people I know, usually younger folks, who meandered their way through a 2nd or 3rd rate college (and in some cases even grad school or a top school) who are dumber than rocks, write at a 2nd grade level, and now work menial jobs.
At the last few jobs I have the younger college kids I worked with really did not impress me at all. As previously mentioned, they could not even string together a complete sentence and was surprised at their total lack of knowledge about anything.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-23-09, 15:37
There definitely is grade inflation and degree inflation. I have a Chemistry degree and went back for my MBA. In the intro Econ class I had to take, there were people struggling, that had just graduated from undergrad with business degrees. The class was nothing more than applied algebra, and these people had taken the class before and they couldn't get it. And this was at an accredited program, not some degree mill.
I think the real issue is that if you can get into a top tier school, it is going to pay off. It is the middle tier schools that cost almost as much, don't have near the marketability, contacts, or resources that are the bumb deal. Come out with 70% of the debt and 10% of the lifetime opportunities.
If you don't get into a top tier school, you're better off going to community or a state school and then trying to transfer in after sophmore year, after all the posers and legacy kids screw up and drop out.
Grant had some excellent commentary in regards to this topic, if I can find the thread.
Universities, sadly, are businesses first and foremost.
I know too many people with degrees working for peanuts. Here in GA, just about anyone with a pulse can get a HOPE Scholarship, and with the decline in standards in High Schools, I do mean anyone with a pulse.
The only people from my sphere of HS buddies that made anything of themselves, had a positive, not negative, savings, are the ones who answered Uncle Sam's call.
Not sure if this is the thread or not: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41408&page=4
C4
Thanks for the compliment!
However, engineering graduate programs (EE for me) are a different world compared to the liberal arts programs, which are completely infected with leftists, statists, and other undesirables.
Agree.
I told my wife that if our two sons want to go to college, that is just fine by me, but there are rules.
Rule 1: NO LIB ARTS DEGREE!
Rule 2: NO DEGREE THAT YOU CANNOT ACTUALLY GET A JOB IN!
Rule 3: IF YOUR GRADES ARE NOT A "B" AVERAGE, YOUR DONE!
If they want some kind of "social underwater basket weaving degree" they can go ROTC and let the Govt pay for that crap.
C4
Of my friends from HS, the ones that have made the most of themselves do not have any sort of degree. The ones with the $100K education are not doing ANYTHING in their major and make FAR less money than I do.
When I worked as a USAF contractor, I would sometimes have to work job fair's for the company I was with. I had guys with computer science degrees, engineering degrees and info system degrees all DESPERATE for a job. Then I had a lowly Navy enlisted guy that had C2 experience (GCCS) drop off his resume. He had about 2 years experience, a TS/SCI security clearance and NO college degree.
When I went back to the office, I handed over all the resumes with the ones that looked the best on top to my boss (retired USAF Colonel). He scanned through them all and tossed out ALL the people with college degrees. He reviewed the Navy guys resume and saw that he had high eval's and awards and told me to give him a call.
The guy ended up getting a job with us starting at $60+k a year and 3 weeks vacation.
My boss wanted someone that knew how to get things down and hit the ground running. This was 10 million times more valuable to him than the guys with degrees.
C4
I have a liberal arts degree. Political science.
I make $46,000 a year in my first job out from college.
Yes, I'm in the military.
I would also have gotten 65,000 in loan repayment, if I'd had any.
In the future, I intend to double down and get two Master's degrees, neither of which will ever pay for themselves.
Such is the cost of public service.
I wouldn't criticize all liberal arts degrees. Political science, history and philosophy are all very valuable. Philosophy, for instance, is the best preparation for law school that you can get.
I have a liberal arts degree. Political science.
I make $46,000 a year in my first job out from college.
Yes, I'm in the military.
I would also have gotten 65,000 in loan repayment, if I'd had any.
In the future, I intend to double down and get two Master's degrees, neither of which will ever pay for themselves.
Such is the cost of public service.
I wouldn't criticize all liberal arts degrees. Political science, history and philosophy are all very valuable. Philosophy, for instance, is the best preparation for law school that you can get.
This is true, provided that you a) actually do go to law school and b) go to a good enough school AND do well enough to secure a large firm job or consulting gig that will make the financial outlay worth the effort. That speaks to the investment angle at least, but not to the education=wisdom disconnect to which Prager refers.:(
Belmont31R
12-23-09, 20:06
A buddy of mine from HS got a degree from UCLA in philosophy. 20k something a year, and now he works for $12/hr at a bank in LA.
My dad does not have a degree but a few years of college. His company hired him without a degree, and has been working as an electrical engineer ever since. He is in Saudi right now making 300K+ a year + great benefits and bonuses.
A college degree now, is what a HS diploma was 50 yrs. ago. Any job worth having now requires a transcript. Less than a 3.0 and applying for a good job? Won't happen.
In the real world a Masters today is what a Bachelors was 20 yrs. ago.
A college education for all? What BS. Not everyone is cut out for it AND that's ok. I know some talented blue collar guys that make more than many college grads; and have better job security.
F Obama. All he does is pander to anyone that will listen.
EzGoingKev
12-23-09, 23:38
A college degree now, is what a HS diploma was 50 yrs. ago. Any job worth having now requires a transcript. Less than a 3.0 and applying for a good job? Won't happen.
Better have a good credit score when they do the background check too.
dmancornell
12-24-09, 02:13
Of my friends from HS, the ones that have made the most of themselves do not have any sort of degree. The ones with the $100K education are not doing ANYTHING in their major and make FAR less money than I do.
When I worked as a USAF contractor, I would sometimes have to work job fair's for the company I was with. I had guys with computer science degrees, engineering degrees and info system degrees all DESPERATE for a job. Then I had a lowly Navy enlisted guy that had C2 experience (GCCS) drop off his resume. He had about 2 years experience, a TS/SCI security clearance and NO college degree.
When I went back to the office, I handed over all the resumes with the ones that looked the best on top to my boss (retired USAF Colonel). He scanned through them all and tossed out ALL the people with college degrees. He reviewed the Navy guys resume and saw that he had high eval's and awards and told me to give him a call.
The guy ended up getting a job with us starting at $60+k a year and 3 weeks vacation.
My boss wanted someone that knew how to get things down and hit the ground running. This was 10 million times more valuable to him than the guys with degrees.
C4
Depends on the job description. Degrees don't guarantee initiative but they *usually* guarantee the minimal technical training required to hit the ground running. I work in CPU design, and six years in school is recommended for anyone who wants to do interesting work instead of spending 4 years doing shit work as on-the-job training. A friend of mine works for a Navy contractor on nuclear power plants, 6 years college minimum just for consideration.
I have a liberal arts degree. Political science.
I make $46,000 a year in my first job out from college.
Yes, I'm in the military.
I would also have gotten 65,000 in loan repayment, if I'd had any.
In the future, I intend to double down and get two Master's degrees, neither of which will ever pay for themselves.
Such is the cost of public service.
I wouldn't criticize all liberal arts degrees. Political science, history and philosophy are all very valuable. Philosophy, for instance, is the best preparation for law school that you can get.
I think the way you did it is the way to go and the degree does not matter.
I also agree about some lib arts degrees being a good idea if you are going into a law degree (for instance).
C4
Depends on the job description. Degrees don't guarantee initiative but they *usually* guarantee the minimal technical training required to hit the ground running. I work in CPU design, and six years in school is recommended for anyone who wants to do interesting work instead of spending 4 years doing shit work as on-the-job training. A friend of mine works for a Navy contractor on nuclear power plants, 6 years college minimum just for consideration.
It does depend the job. If you are coming in to work real time Military OPS, you had better know everything from .Mil lingo to how missions flow. Not to mention needing a security clearance.
I would argue that you could spend 4 years in the Military (as an enlisted) get fantastic training, security clearance, go to college for free and receive a decent salary (all at the same time).
Then get out and get a job for a good bit of coin.
Compare this to MOST college grads that are working for $10 bucks an hour and a large student loan hanging over their head.
After 5 years in the USN, I got out with zero debt, paid for car and $5k in the bank. A year after I got out I was making over $60k. This was in 1999.
Because I was debt free and made a good salary, I was able to start G&R Tactical and then another business. I am the wealthiest person in my family by far. Oh and I am the only one that does NOT have a college degree. ;)
C4
Littlelebowski
12-24-09, 08:26
In agreement with Grant. No degree but military training and self education while I was in the Corps got me to 60K when I got out in 04 to $125K right now.
IT is one of the great fields. Not "what school did you go to" or "what's your degree in" but "what is your experience?" Experience beats degrees every time from what I've seen in IT.
In agreement with Grant. No degree but military training and self education while I was in the Corps got me to 60K when I got out in 04 to $125K right now.
IT is one of the great fields. Not "what school did you go to" or "what's your degree in" but "what is your experience?" Experience beats degrees every time from what I've seen in IT.
Right.
In my last job working for USAF's Air Operation Center SPO (engineering dept.), all of my co-workers had Master's Degrees and were great at the "theory" and "planning" side of things. When the SHTF/rubber met the road, the guys with the hands on technical ability (read problem fixers) were the ones that were called upon to get the job done.
Experience and ability to get the job done is all that counts when things go south. THIS is what people (Govt/companies) will pay for.
C4
As somebody who was enlisted Navy before college and then law school, I have to say I generally agree with most of what's been stated in this thread. I truly don't understand why college has become the be all/end all that it has. Along with the over-emphasis on pushing kids towards college, whether they're prepared and have the basic equipment or not, has come an increase in the number of organizations that require college for jobs that just don't seem to warrant it. Personally, I don't think a college degree means much in and of itself. A degree from a good school, with a good transcript - yes. A degree from a middle/lower tier school with a good transcript - also yes. A degree for its own sake - no f'in way.
ForTehNguyen
12-24-09, 09:52
to make a long story short, kids are getting pigeonholed and funneled into debt. HS degree is made worthless by DoE, so you have to go to an overpriced college which govt backed loan programs keep rocketting up tuition costs. Another epic example of why govt shouldnt meddle in stuff like this.
College is more or less a business investment: what type of career returns will you get for X amount of years and Y amount of dollars spent. With the price continually going up, and the quality going down its making less and less sense. These trade schools, vocational schools, and getting internships or apprenticeships seem far superior now.
I agree with most of the comments here. But have a couple points to make:
It is not a good idea to generalize based on the IT industry - it is unique because what is taught in college has very little to do with what people actually do in the industry. This is true with a lot of jobs, but even more so with IT. Things change so fast that colleges are always hopelessly behind, so experience and the various professional certifications you can get seem to hold a lot more weight. IT is really a wild frontier of sorts.
However, while technical skills seem to get people into IT jobs, management skills are sorely lacking IMO. Managing people and projects is an art that takes time, training, and experience. This is being addressed with things like PMP certification, but that is still a test based on a course of subject matter, and not a substitute for actual management experience and training.
The value of a BA/BS in many LAS fields is questionable unless used a prep for a professional graduate degree. Many LAS degrees are useless in the job market, except for jobs that require any degree, because they do not provide the graduate with any marketable skills, except for reading books and writing papers. Science degrees generally lead to little in their fields without an MS or PhD.
Professional degrees are getting more and more important. If you want to work in accounting, try doing it without a degree and a CPA license. Finance is similar. Chemical, electrical, structural, and mechanical engineering pretty much require a degree, and in some cases a professional license which requires the degree. Just a regular business degree is better than most LAS degrees, because at least you learn about business, which is what most businesses are involved in!
Lots of students are getting really bad advice from parents, teachers, counselors, and other academics. They say study what you like and don't treat college as vocational education. That's fine if you want to expand your mind and don't plan to work for a living. If you do, you better consider what jobs the degree will lead to.
I have no idea why anyone would spend $25K-$40K a year at a private liberal arts college unless they are already wealthy. An in-law of mine got a nearly $100K teaching degree to make 1/4 to 1/3 of that as an elementary school teacher.
The last thing is that many college students perform poorly because they are not mature enough to handle the responsibilities of living on their own. I went to a top engineering program where everyone had to do very well in high school to be admitted, and we still had people flunk out left and right not because they were stupid or unprepared, but because they weren't mature and disciplined enough to go to class and do the work. A lot of college students are like this, and should have spent a couple years working, or in the military until they were truly ready for college.
Littlelebowski
12-24-09, 11:52
IT is definitely unique and probably one of the last true, merit driven fields.
IT is definitely unique and probably one of the last true, merit driven fields.
Yep, but there is still a lot of politics if you work in a corporation, and merit is not necessarily what gets you ahead. As a self-employed or small-shop consultant, you are right.
For true merit based pay, commissioned sales is about all there really is. You sell, you get paid. Sell more, make more. But it's not easy, there are no guaranties, and many if not most people can't do it. But those that can are able to go pretty far no matter what their education level.
I'm not in sales, but I know people who are. It seems like a skill you are born with, or not.
Outlander Systems
12-24-09, 12:08
Chemical, electrical, structural, and mechanical engineering pretty much require a degree, and in some cases a professional license which requires the degree.
I'm in civil, and I've pretty much maxed myself out, short of getting my P.L.S.
My degree is in CIS, which translates into pretty much worthless for the field of Land Surveying.
Which is why I'm hosed. I either go back to school, and then seek licensing, or consider a career change.
I think that Business degrees have value if they are in Finance or Accounting.
Management degrees should only be offered as double majors.
Similarly MBAs would be great ways to get MDs, engineers and lawyers prepared to run the financial side of their practice.
As for liberal arts, it all depends on what you do with it. I'm doing just fine with mine, and glad that I took it because I learned what I needed to know.
If I had it to do over again I would have focused in on Construction Management and/or International Relations.
But that's just me.
liberal arts programs have value as a minor or a double major to an engineering, or other useful program like Computer Science or other ones that have been mentioned here.
Someone with a straight engineering or CS or "good" degree without a liberal arts minor or double major has less potential than someone with the minor or double major.
While you do learn vocational stuff, even in the engineering and other hard degree programs, what you learn is not what you use in the real world. But it shows competency in learning that sort of stuff so you can get real world experience in how it is really done plus it provides a basic foundation of skills that you build on in the real world.
For example, I was a Computer Science (CS) major/graduate. None of the stuff I learned in compiler class, operating system class, etc is really valid anymore with today's technological level of these sorts of things. But I did gain valuable insight into the problems in these areas and simple solutions which helped understand the problems better. And I gained a good understanding of basic algorithms and stuff which provided the foundation for real stuff to be built on that in the real world.
But the liberal arts minor or double major shows an expanded ability to study and think. If I were hiring to equally experienced people, one with a straight BS and one with a BS/BA double major or at least a liberal arts minor, I would probably hire the guy with the double major or minor as a more well rounded individual.
I was a CS/German double major with math and scandinavian studies minors. Because I ended up quitting school to go work for DEC and do night school to finish up with DEC paying, and then a final year of full time school on LOA to actually finish up, I was not able to complete the double major or the minors. But I almost got a German minor and a Scandinavian studies minor -- 2 classes short in each (and each minor required like 7-9 classes). I went pretty far in the math minor as well. But I did not finish them which I regret a little bit. But I did take a bunch of German and Scandinavian Studies classes and feel myself to be much more well rounded and enriched than those who were straight geek.
E-guns - that's a good point. All other things being equal, the double major or minor helps you stand out.
However, I would hire the person with the appropriate undergrad degree, and the right mix of experience and accomplishments. Once you get your first "real" job after your undergrad, the degree then becomes a sorting mechanism for future jobs - as in, do you have a degree or not, and is it in the applicable discipline - what's really important is what you have done with it.
Secondly, I would rather hire someone with a master's degree than a double undergrad or minor. I did the Engineering/MBA thing to diversify and expand my skills. That's more valuable in the long run than a double major.
My son took a bit different route. After high school he joined the Army Guard went through basic then enrolled in college and participated in ROTC in college. His junior year during summer he went through Airborne school at Benning.
I truly believe his decision to go through basic and then college made him more successful in college and matured him greatly. It also made him immune to a lot of the liberal teaching he encountered.
He transferred over to the reserves and is serving his second tour in Iraq now. His civilian job is a great one as well
Shadow1198
12-25-09, 14:38
I never finished college, and I have procrastinated about going back and finishing. Some of the procrastination is due to the fact that I really don't think the degree alone would even do anything for me at this point. One thing is for sure, I wish the college I did go to had an Austrian economics based course instead of a bullshit run of the mill economics course trying to trick everyone into believing socialist principles. It would have saved me learning the hard way. ;)
I have met a great deal of college graduates that don't have the fiscal intelligence or maturity to run a damn lemonade stand. ;)
Shadow I agree. Schools are dumbing down the curriculum from grade school to college. After all everyone must be equal and nobody can fail or think they aren't number one.
It's like this business of everyone who participates in any school activity must be given a trophy or ribbon so they won't feel bad and have their little ego bruised. Sorry but it's just as important to know how to handle failure as it is to know success.
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