View Full Version : New Apex Sear for the M&P!
This was posted over on www.mp-pistol.com and while I know a lot of folks have accounts over there I ask Randy Lee if he would mind if I cross posted it here as well for those that don't have accounts in both places.
After exchanging PMs with Randy and Scott I learned that their first run of sears sold out in one day! They are however planning a larger run that they expect to have finished by SHOT.
I love the M&P but have been very critical of the trigger so this sear is very good news for me. It was also mentioned that they're working on a firing pin plunger as well!
Apex Tactical Specialties is coming out with drop in trigger kits and extractors for the Smith and Wesson M&P line of pistols.
Our prototypes have run flawlessly for the past month and the parts will be available soon to the general public.
Our Drop In Sear will reduce the trigger to a smooth 4lbs and reduce the reset by more than 40%. They're 100% billet machined right here in the USA from high grade tool steel. They're also carefully heat treated to rigid quality control specifications to insure the longest service life possible.
Our Drop In extractor has been carefully redesigned to produce consistent extraction for the 9mm M&P models currently available. It's been made from high grade billet machined Stainless Steel right here in the USA.
We're through the beta testing phase of development and the first batch is on the way. I expect the parts to go up on our online store within the next couple of weeks.
Sear Price: $29.95
Extractor Price: Not yet known.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/DSC_0239.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/mpsear2.jpg
Hi everybody.
My name is Scott Folk, I'm a partner at Apex Tactical Specialties along with Randy Lee and Lisa Farrell.
I've joined this forum to help provide better customer or "potential customer" service by answering any questions any of you might have.
Please feel free to contact me here by forum posts, through PM or on my Apex email address at scott@apextactical.com.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
Scott
PS. Here's another pic of the sear
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/mpsear1.jpg
Hi everybody.
My name is Scott Folk, I'm a partner at Apex Tactical Specialties along with Randy Lee and Lisa Farrell.
I've joined this forum to help provide better customer or "potential customer" service by answering any questions any of you might have.
Please feel free to contact me here by forum posts, through PM or on my Apex email address at scott@apextactical.com.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
Scott
Merry Christmas indeed!
Great news, lets get some reviews here so I can tell just how much of an improvement this offers.
Buckaroo
The initial offering is sold out as of the moment.
Here's a link to our shopping cart. http://www.apextactical.com/hp_zencart/
The next batch will be in within a couple of weeks.
decodeddiesel
12-24-09, 16:49
Awesome stuff! Is there a pre-order or back-order list I can get on? I would be all over 2 of these.
dwhitehorne
12-24-09, 16:53
SWEET! It's about time. Thank you for making a much sought after product. I will definately be ordering a few for my M&P's. David
Thanks for the interest guys.
Just had a nice long talk with my partners, we're working on backorder/preorders for the sears. At the moment, just email me at scott@apextactical.com to get on the waiting list and I'll give you first dibs on parts when we have them.
Thanks.
Flork
Thanks for the interest guys.
Just had a nice long talk with my partners, we're working on backorder/preorders for the sears. At the moment, just email me at scott@apextactical.com to get on the waiting list and I'll give you first dibs on parts when we have them.
Thanks.
Flork
Thank man, I know the members here will really appreciate that!
Robb Jensen
12-24-09, 17:22
Welcome Flork!
I'd be VERY interested in sear.
You might look into producing the Mass. compliant trigger springs too. I know the market is probably pretty small on them, but there is a market for them since S&W is unwilling to part with them.
Hi Scott, welcome...
this should be a hot little product for you!
do you have any idea of how this compares to the Performance Center sear from Smith & Wesson?
Welcome Flork!
I'd be VERY interested in sear.
You might look into producing the Mass. compliant trigger springs too. I know the market is probably pretty small on them, but there is a market for them since S&W is unwilling to part with them.
You should email me the info on what we would need to be Mass compliant. I'm not opposed to doing it if there is interest.
Hi Scott, welcome...
this should be a hot little product for you!
do you have any idea of how this compares to the Performance Center sear from Smith & Wesson?
PC Sear: Trigger pull wt. 4 lbs 13.0 oz
Trigger reset dist. approx .18"
Apex Sear: Trigger pull wt. 4lbs. 0.2 oz
Trigger reset dist. approx .15"
The trigger pull values were an average of 10 readings from a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge.
The reset value was derived using pin gauges of increasing diameter being placed between the frame's overtravel pad and that of the trigger's OT pad. The trigger was pinned to the rear and the gauges were placed between the two pads until the sear/trigger bar snapped back into engagement.
Please keep in mind that these results were collected on a sample of only one gun, and that the results will probably vary from gun to gun.
John_Wayne777
12-24-09, 18:08
Welcome to M4C!
This is something I've been screaming about since I got my M&P. I'm eager to give them a shot. I ordered 2. Robb, you're welcome to one of them once I get them if you want to do some T&E before the next run.
Robb Jensen
12-24-09, 18:16
You should email me the info on what we would need to be Mass compliant. I'm not opposed to doing it if there is interest.
I should be able to get a some Mass. compliant springs in the next few weeks. I can send you one to spec. out to see if you can produce it.
RogerinTPA
12-24-09, 18:17
I'd be interested in 2 sear's as well for my 2 M&P9s.
One question though, will this sear fit in the M&P40 or is it completely different?
Welcome to M4C!
Robb Jensen
12-24-09, 18:19
Welcome to M4C!
This is something I've been screaming about since I got my M&P. I'm eager to give them a shot. I ordered 2. Robb, you're welcome to one of them once I get them if you want to do some T&E before the next run.
Thanks Tim, I may take you up on that.
I own Langdons old M&P45, he put several thousand rounds through it and I recently found out that it needs a new sear. Even so the pistol is still surgically accurate. Maybe even more accurate than my Pro.
Littlelebowski
12-24-09, 18:19
This is all sorts of awesome.
John_Wayne777
12-24-09, 18:26
I'd be interested in 2 sear's as well for my 2 M&P9s.
One question though, will this sear fit in the M&P40 or is it completely different?
Welcome to M4C!
Other than the Performance Center sear used in the Pro model, all the M&P sears are the same IIRC.
This is something I've been screaming about since I got my M&P. I'm eager to give them a shot.
Ditto! Put it together with a rounded safety plunger and a better striker and it's a trigger job and reliability package in a box.
Here's Another vote for Apex to product the Mass trigger spring.
I was lucky enough to score the parts to make a P-T.com clone (not from S&W, dagnabit) - I love it. Having the stronger trigger return spring made for a slightly heavier pull (another pound or so), but a much more forceful reset in my MP9.
Bravo Apex.
I'm very interested in the Mass. compliant trigger spring for my pro, I'm definitely willing to gain a pound of pull weight for more positive reset.
email sent, this is what my FS 45 needs!!
I'm very interested in the Mass. compliant trigger spring for my pro, I'm definitely willing to gain a pound of pull weight for more positive reset.
I will be looking forward to this as well!
Buckaroo
SeriousStudent
12-24-09, 20:11
Dang it! That factory trigger was the only thing preventing me from buying a M&P 9. Now you are going to fix that. ;)
You guys are costing me more money every week - hehehehe.
A very stupid question, if I may. Is this Flork the same gentleman that worked with Bruce Gray? If so, it is great pleasure to have you here at M4C.
I was going to ask the same question about Flork...
Too cool!!!
I just emailed you to be put on the list for a couple of sears!
Thanks for taking the time to produce these parts, here's hoping they live up to expectations.
CaptainDooley
12-24-09, 21:03
This and the Mass trigger spring might cause me to re-think waiting on a p-t.com special edition... not having a carry piece is making me antsy.
I emailed to be put on the list as well! (now all I need is an M&P :D)
Dave Berryhill
12-24-09, 21:13
Has anyone done a review on the sear?
This and the Mass trigger spring might cause me to re-think waiting on a p-t.com special edition... not having a carry piece is making me antsy.
+1...
As badass as Todd's/PT.C's setup is...this is making me very, very antsy.
Now...I just have to find my application to the DPS for my TX CHL lol
I am very, very interested in this for my M&P45. A drop in part to improve the trigger pull without me monkeying around? Brilliant!
This and the Mass trigger spring might cause me to re-think waiting on a p-t.com special edition... not having a carry piece is making me antsy.
where are you getting a Mass trigger?
I should be able to get a some Mass. compliant springs in the next few weeks. I can send you one to spec. out to see if you can produce it.
is it just the spring or also the trigger bar?
CaptainDooley
12-24-09, 22:01
where are you getting a Mass trigger?
Oh, I don't have one... I was saying if I did it would make me rethink my plans...
Oh, I don't have one... I was saying if I did it would make me rethink my plans...
gotcha. from what I understand you can send your gun to S&W and they will install it for you. for a price...
gotcha. from what I understand you can send your gun to S&W and they will install it for you. for a price...
You can contact a gunsmith in Mass (they have been known to do trigger jobs and have MA compliant springs just lying around). I have bought heavy springs from Mike LaRocca (http://www.laroccagunworks.com). Email him.
NCPatrolAR
12-24-09, 22:35
I might have to try one of the sears out in my M&P40C. That is the only M&P I own, other than my duty gun, that still has a factory trigger.
Hello all,
First, I think I can speak for Flork, Lisa as well as myself when I say we are so thankful for your interest in our products. The three of us comprise Apex. We hope that we can continue to provide parts of the highest quality.
I am fortunate enough to have a good relationship with most of the Team Smith and Wesson competitive shooters. Dave Olhasso is one of their sponsored shooters.
In a conversation regarding M&P work, he mentioned that he likes to replace the factory trigger return spring with the Extra Power trigger spring for the Glock pistols manufactured by Wolff. He said that the heavier duty spring helps reset the trigger faster and gives the reset a more distinct feel. I thought I might share this with those of you who might be interested but unable to obtain the Mass. TR springs.
I have permission to install one in a customer's M&P 9 to test its effects. I will do this on Monday and report back.
Merry Christmas to all!
Randy
Hello all,
First, I think I can speak for Flork, Lisa as well as myself when I say we are so thankful for your interest in our products. The three of us comprise Apex. We hope that we can continue to provide parts of the highest quality.
I am fortunate enough to have a good relationship with most of the Team Smith and Wesson competitive shooters. Dave Olhasso is one of their sponsored shooters.
In a conversation regarding M&P work, he mentioned that he likes to replace the factory trigger return spring with the Extra Power trigger spring for the Glock pistols manufactured by Wolff. He said that the heavier duty spring helps reset the trigger faster and gives the reset a more distinct feel. I thought I might share this with those of you who might be interested but unable to obtain the Mass. TR springs.
I have permission to install one in a customer's M&P 9 to test its effects. I will do this on Monday and report back.
Merry Christmas to all!
Randy
Sounds interesting, I for one will be eager to hear more about this.
Buckaroo
Sounds very good. I'd like to hear at SHOT that S&W will improve their line by offering Apex sear models from the factory.
I hope this catches on.
Thanks
Robb Jensen
12-25-09, 09:33
is it just the spring or also the trigger bar?
The Mass. guns have different springs and trigger bars, but in about 2min you can mod a standard trigger bar to accept the Mass. spring. I've done 5 this way without problems.
GLOCKMASTER
12-25-09, 10:29
Hi everybody.
My name is Scott Folk, I'm a partner at Apex Tactical Specialties along with Randy Lee and Lisa Farrell.
I've joined this forum to help provide better customer or "potential customer" service by answering any questions any of you might have.
Please feel free to contact me here by forum posts, through PM or on my Apex email address at scott@apextactical.com.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
Scott
PS. Here's another pic of the sear
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/mpsear1.jpg
Hello all,
First, I think I can speak for Flork, Lisa as well as myself when I say we are so thankful for your interest in our products. The three of us comprise Apex. We hope that we can continue to provide parts of the highest quality.
I am fortunate enough to have a good relationship with most of the Team Smith and Wesson competitive shooters. Dave Olhasso is one of their sponsored shooters.
In a conversation regarding M&P work, he mentioned that he likes to replace the factory trigger return spring with the Extra Power trigger spring for the Glock pistols manufactured by Wolff. He said that the heavier duty spring helps reset the trigger faster and gives the reset a more distinct feel. I thought I might share this with those of you who might be interested but unable to obtain the Mass. TR springs.
I have permission to install one in a customer's M&P 9 to test its effects. I will do this on Monday and report back.
Merry Christmas to all!
Randy
Hey guys welcome to the site and enjoy your stay. It's nice to have options and thanks for producing one for the M&P.
Randy thank you for sharing the information concerning the spring. I will have to try that next week.
The Mass. guns have different springs and trigger bars, but in about 2min you can mod a standard trigger bar to accept the Mass. spring. I've done 5 this way without problems.
so... can I send you my Pro and have you do this for me??? :)
Hello all,
First, I think I can speak for Flork, Lisa as well as myself when I say we are so thankful for your interest in our products. The three of us comprise Apex. We hope that we can continue to provide parts of the highest quality.
I am fortunate enough to have a good relationship with most of the Team Smith and Wesson competitive shooters. Dave Olhasso is one of their sponsored shooters.
In a conversation regarding M&P work, he mentioned that he likes to replace the factory trigger return spring with the Extra Power trigger spring for the Glock pistols manufactured by Wolff. He said that the heavier duty spring helps reset the trigger faster and gives the reset a more distinct feel. I thought I might share this with those of you who might be interested but unable to obtain the Mass. TR springs.
I have permission to install one in a customer's M&P 9 to test its effects. I will do this on Monday and report back.
Merry Christmas to all!
Randy
if this works it will be a nice alternative for those like myself with a Pro with just the factory sear.
I wonder, however, if because it is not a S&W part if it will affect the warranty. the Mass trigger bar and spring are S&W factory installed parts and would not void any warranty. this would be my only consideration...
Robb Jensen
12-25-09, 11:28
I've tried Wolff XP Glock trigger springs before in M&Ps. It does make for a snappier reset in M&Ps vs. stock but not anywhere as snappy as a S&W M&P Mass. trigger spring. It's also not as durable.
I've tried Wolff XP Glock trigger springs before in M&Ps. It does make for a snappier reset in M&Ps vs. stock but not anywhere as snappy as a S&W M&P Mass. trigger spring. It's also not as durable.
Thanks for the data! We will begin looking into the design and material selection for a new extra power TR spring. The great thing about being near Ca Poly San Luis Obispo (my alma mater) is that I have access to some very sharp Mechanical and Materials Engineers.
Your post leads me to assume you have experienced some parts breakage with the Wolff spring?
Robb Jensen
12-25-09, 14:13
Thanks for the data! We will begin looking into the design and material selection for a new extra power TR spring. The great thing about being near Ca Poly San Luis Obispo (my alma mater) is that I have access to some very sharp Mechanical and Materials Engineers.
Your post leads me to assume you have experienced some parts breakage with the Wolff spring?
Yes they typically would last 4K live rounds and 7.5K dry fires. I've not broken a Mass. spring and the one in my Pro has over 15K live rounds on it with at least 25K dry fires. I think the felt buffer inside the Mass. spring and standard M&P trigger springs has a lot to do with it's long serviceable life.
I think using chrome silicon near the same gauge wire as the Mass. compliant spring or even heavier would do nicely.
mike benedict
12-25-09, 15:31
In my opinion the Mass. trigger return spring makes for an awful trigger.
It doesn't make for a more definitive reset, it just add several pounds to the trigger pull and a lot more forward spring pressure.
It is sort of like a NY1 Glock trigger but without a good "clicky" reset.
Mike
The Mass. guns have different springs and trigger bars, but in about 2min you can mod a standard trigger bar to accept the Mass. spring. I've done 5 this way without problems.
GotM4,
what is the modification you did for the Mass spring and standard trigger bar? Is it a different size hole in the trigger bar for different springs? I had the two trigger bars side by side (months ago) and didn't notice a difference, then again I wasn't looking hard.
The sear looks very, very interesting.
In my opinion the Mass. trigger return spring makes for an awful trigger.
It doesn't make for a more definitive reset, it just add several pounds to the trigger pull and a lot more forward spring pressure.
It is sort of like a NY1 Glock trigger but without a good "clicky" reset.
Mike
Mike, the people who are talking about this are using it in conjunction with a Performance Center sear. is this your experience also?
I had the two trigger bars side by side (months ago) and didn't notice a difference, then again I wasn't looking hard.
The connector holes are not modified. The Mass spring is thicker so some of the top of the trigger is removed to eliminate any rubbing. I think but am not sure that some of the newer trigger assemblies will work without mods.
Dang it! That factory trigger was the only thing preventing me from buying a M&P 9. Now you are going to fix that. ;)
You guys are costing me more money every week - hehehehe.
A very stupid question, if I may. Is this Flork the same gentleman that worked with Bruce Gray? If so, it is great pleasure to have you here at M4C.
Well I dunno if I'm exactly a gentleman, but yes I'm the same Flork that used to work for Bruce Gray at Grayguns, Inc. I left GGI 2 months ago and went to work with Apex. I no longer have any association with GGI.
mike benedict
12-26-09, 04:37
Mike, the people who are talking about this are using it in conjunction with a Performance Center sear. is this your experience also?
Yes I used it with the pro sear
Yes I used it with the pro sear
do you know of, or have you heard of anyone getting a firm distinct reset with any modification of the M&P trigger?
mike benedict
12-26-09, 08:49
do you know of, or have you heard of anyone getting a firm distinct reset with any modification of the M&P trigger?
I have not
Littlelebowski
12-26-09, 09:10
do you know of, or have you heard of anyone getting a firm distinct reset with any modification of the M&P trigger?
Yup. The MA spring. Used Todd's, worked well.
Yup. The MA spring. Used Todd's, worked well.
VERY WELL.
C4
SeriousStudent
12-26-09, 11:55
Well I dunno if I'm exactly a gentleman, but yes I'm the same Flork that used to work for Bruce Gray at Grayguns, Inc. I left GGI 2 months ago and went to work with Apex. I no longer have any association with GGI.
Thank you, I am very glad you have joined up here. We are very glad to have you! There are some folks here that have experienced the magic you can do on a Sig. :)
Alpha Sierra
12-26-09, 15:25
Maybe I am in the minority here but in the context of a defensive weapon I find nothing lacking in the M&P's trigger as it comes from S&W.
John_Wayne777
12-26-09, 15:45
Maybe I am in the minority here but in the context of a defensive weapon I find nothing lacking in the M&P's trigger as it comes from S&W.
That's certainly true. I can shoot my stock M&P's as well as (often better than) my customized M&P. With training it's certainly something you can get used to and can learn to use very well.
That being said, I prefer the smoother trigger and better reset if I can get it reasonably.
That being said, I prefer the smoother trigger and better reset if I can get it reasonably.
Agreed.
If I was going to shoot and carry the M&P exclusively then I could get used to it. However, even when I owned a full size M&P9 and went looking for a compact version the triggers between the models (even from individual guns) were vastly different.
This prevented me from getting a M&P9c and ultimately resulted in my selling my full size.
Like JW_777 if I can get the trigger I want (really I just want consistency) for a reasonable cost/effort then I might have a renewed interest in the M&P again.
Yup. The MA spring. Used Todd's, worked well.
you say "yay", and Mike says "nay"...
so what's the deal - are the triggers inconsistent, or is this just a difference of perception?
Robb Jensen
12-27-09, 06:16
you say "yay", and Mike says "nay"...
so what's the deal - are the triggers inconsistent, or is this just a difference of perception?
I shot 9 different M&Ps with Pro sears and Mass. compliant springs. All had a snappier VERY consistent reset.
With my M&P Pro I shortened the reset even further so that it's reset is about like a Glock with a Ghost Rocket connector or a 1911.
mike benedict
12-27-09, 07:58
you say "yay", and Mike says "nay"...
so what's the deal - are the triggers inconsistent, or is this just a difference of perception?
Changing a spring will not change the reset characteristics of the M&P
It is just a spring after all!
What it does is add weight to the trigger pull, because you now have to overcome a heavier spring while pulling the trigger.
The other effect is that since it is a heavier spring there is more force returning the trigger to its rest position. That is what it does.
It certainly doesn't make a M&P have a Glock type reset.
If you think that you would like that type of trigger, it is cheap to try and you can put it back if you don't like it.
For me I like the Pro sear as it is and it is quite shootable.
I have a lot of trigger time on pistols certainly in excess of a million rounds with over 50,000 on M&Ps so I know what I like in a trigger.
You can decide for yourself and that is part of the fun.
The other effect is that since it is a heavier spring there is more force returning the trigger to its rest position. That is what it does.
That's all it's supposed to do. I, and many others, can out-run the trigger reset on a stock M&P which results in short stroking. The benefit of having a strong trigger reset (which, as Mike points out, is not the same as having a distinct reset) is pretty well established. Just talk to Jerry Miculek about how he sets up his revolver triggers.
Dropping the MA-compliant spring (I use the MA trigger bar, too) into an M&P won't magically give it a distinct reset. For that, you need the Pro sear -- or perhaps the Apex sear, which I haven't seen -- and/or some 'smith work done to the firing pin block and some other internals.
I've found that the MA spring, MA bar, and Pro sear gives me, out of the box, a very shootable trigger.
Hey guys.
Randy, Lisa and I got to work on a video for the installation of the "Apex Hard Sear".
Here are some photos of the production process. The video should be posted by the end of the day tomorrow.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/Apex/CIMG1241.jpg
Great to hear! I've been holding off buying my own M&P because I absolutely HATE the trigger. I'll still wait to hear some reviews before changing my mind. ;)
Gentle Ben
12-28-09, 18:36
I'm glad someone finally came out with an improved M&P sear. Looking forward to seeing how these sears work out.
I'm on the waiting list and I'm glad to be there as I don't trust myself to remove metal from important parts of the gun. What can I say, if someone can ruin a part, it's going to be me.
CaptainDooley
12-29-09, 09:56
The Mass. guns have different springs and trigger bars, but in about 2min you can mod a standard trigger bar to accept the Mass. spring. I've done 5 this way without problems.
Anyway you could post up a quick tutorial on what modifications need to be done for those of us who would attempt this ourselves?
Robb Jensen
12-29-09, 13:18
Anyway you could post up a quick tutorial on what modifications need to be done for those of us who would attempt this ourselves?
Basically all you do is grind away a little of the plastic the the trigger spring area of the trigger. Remove just enough so that the Mass. spring will it that slot.
Thanks Flork, I'm looking forward to the video. I like the sticky note! :D
CaptainDooley
12-29-09, 15:53
Basically all you do is grind away a little of the plastic the the trigger spring area of the trigger. Remove just enough so that the Mass. spring will it that slot.
Cool - sounds like a simple job.
Completely unrelated and open to anyone - I was just reading a post on mp-pistol.com where someone said that it is the Mass compliant sear spring which makes for a better reset, not the trigger return spring - though the consensus here is that the Mass compliant trigger return spring does the same job - has anyone experimented with one over the other?
(link for reference: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=21893)
I was just reading a post on mp-pistol.com where someone said that it is the Mass compliant sear spring which makes for a better reset, not the trigger return spring
Look at how it works. The "reset" that most talk about is the trigger bar returning to it's normal position. This is the "reset" that one feels and hears. The sear spring does not affect this at all. The sear is reset while the slide is traveling rearward when the trigger bar is pushed out from under the sear. By the time the slide is returned to battery the sear is already reset and the sear spring no longer has any part to play. I seriously doubt that anyone can feel the sear reset. A heavier trigger return spring puts more pressure on the trigger bar when it returns to normal position and that enhances the "reset" that is felt when the trigger is moved forward.
Hey guys, just thought I'd add a quick note.
The first batch shipped out yesterday, they'll start arriving to customers as of tomorrow.
CaptainDooley
12-29-09, 19:05
Look at how it works. The "reset" that most talk about is the trigger bar returning to it's normal position. This is the "reset" that one feels and hears. The sear spring does not affect this at all. The sear is reset while the slide is traveling rearward when the trigger bar is pushed out from under the sear. By the time the slide is returned to battery the sear is already reset and the sear spring no longer has any part to play. I seriously doubt that anyone can feel the sear reset. A heavier trigger return spring puts more pressure on the trigger bar when it returns to normal position and that enhances the "reset" that is felt when the trigger is moved forward.
Makes sense to me... I'm a total newb when it comes to working under the hood of a gun... so I figured I'd ask.
Just curious: Are most folks who are planning to put an enhanced sear in a carry pistol ALSO planning to adding a heavier trigger spring, like the MA spring plus bar that will be added to the PT custom pistols? And if so, how do you go about getting the additional required parts? (Haven't seen them available anywhere, but perhaps S&W offers them).
I have a PC sear in my M&P Pro, and love the improved pull, but it's too light for a carry gun by itself. At least for my taste, when you're talking about a pistol with no safety.
NCPatrolAR
12-29-09, 23:15
Just curious: Are most folks who are planning to put an enhanced sear in a carry pistol ALSO planning to adding a heavier trigger spring, like the MA spring plus bar that will be added to the PT custom pistols?
Nope, I'm going to just add the sear to my 40C and see how it runs.
CaptainDooley
12-30-09, 00:00
Just curious: Are most folks who are planning to put an enhanced sear in a carry pistol ALSO planning to adding a heavier trigger spring, like the MA spring plus bar that will be added to the PT custom pistols?
I will if I can find one. I've put some feelers out, but so far I've got bupkis.
Well I just scored my Apex sear and drop it in, took about 15 min. On my non-Lyman, RCBS trigger gage it is coming in at a pretty consistent 64 oz. (4lbs). The gun has the stock striker spring, and I lightly polished the striker where it engages the sear, and the trigger bar where it engages the sear, this was done long before I purchased the new sear. The feel of the reset is about the same, but is definitely shorter.
I am going to the Mojave desert this Friday for some shooting, and will test it. I will get back, and let you all know how it went.
John_Wayne777
12-30-09, 13:35
Just curious: Are most folks who are planning to put an enhanced sear in a carry pistol ALSO planning to adding a heavier trigger spring, like the MA spring plus bar that will be added to the PT custom pistols?
Ultimately that's my goal...but for now I'm just going to drop the sear into my .45 (my "test bed" for M&P configs since I don't carry it) and see how it works by itself if possible.
When I get the sear I plan to post some pics of the swap.
And if so, how do you go about getting the additional required parts? (Haven't seen them available anywhere, but perhaps S&W offers them).
Apparently you have to sweet talk the right people to get them...which gives me a concern about the PT guns. Grant already has my CC information for the purchase, but sooner or later I'm gonna need new trigger springs if I shoot these guns. Given that these are shipping from the factory with these springs, will S&W give me a hard time about getting replacement springs?
Enquiring minds would like to know...
I have a PC sear in my M&P Pro, and love the improved pull, but it's too light for a carry gun by itself. At least for my taste, when you're talking about a pistol with no safety.
My main carry gun is a Burwell tuned M&P. The trigger is relatively light, but the travel of the trigger is sufficiently long to prevent disaster, in my experience. At the Vickers/Hackathorn low light class I was reholstering my M&P when somehow the lanyard from my light worked its way into the trigger guard. I was able to feel that something was wrong and stop before I got a loud noise.
You'll have to ask Todd about this, but IIRC the FBI actually did a study that found the length of the trigger pull had more to do with preventing AD/ND incidents than the actual weight of the trigger.
I got on the list for 2 of these sears today.
mike benedict
12-30-09, 16:15
I dropped the Apex Hard Sear into my box stock internals M&P Pro today
No issues at all
The pistol has 22K rounds through it
The existing trigger pull with the Pro sear is 4 3/4 lbs
The trigger pull with the Apex sear 4 lbs
The Apex Hard Sear has a relatively crisp (for and M&P) reset, maybe a bit crisper the the stock sear but not significantly so.
The reset is right at .10" from full back of the trigger, slightly shorter than the factory Pro sear. Again not much difference.
John_Wayne777
12-31-09, 15:56
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1619.jpg
I received my sears this afternoon. One is now on it's way to GotM4, and the other is in my M&P .45.
I selected my M&P .45 for a couple of reasons:
1. It's not a pistol I carry for self defense, so I can do stuff to it without hammering a carry gun.
2. It's box stock save for the sights.
3. It's been shot the least out of my M&Ps (.45 ACP is expensive) and really hasn't been broken in good...hence it is the most like an off the shelf M&P of the guns I own.
Install was painless. M&P's aren't quite as easy to work on as Glocks, but they are still pretty easy to work on. The only thing I've never taken off the gun is the extractor. Removing the two roll pins in the frame was accomplished with a Glock tool and gunsmith's hammer. The trigger pivot pin pushes out without the aid of a hammer.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1620.jpg
Then it's just a matter of removing the sear pin:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1623.jpg
Taking out the old sear...without losing the little metal stud that sits on top of the sear spring:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1624.jpg
Putting the new sear in place (ensuring it bounces up and down on the sear spring properly) and then re-inserting the pin:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1626.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1625.jpg
The overall effect of the sear places the engagement of the sear farther rearward in the trigger's travel. The pics suck, but it's the best illustration I can give. Here's the sear engagement point on a stock M&P 9C:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1630.jpg
According to my digital calipers sear engagement starts at 0.047" on the stock 9C. Space between the overtravel stops on the trigger and frame is 0.255" at engagement.
Here's the sear engagement point on the M&P .45 with the Apex sear installed:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP1628.jpg
According to the calipers, it's 0.247" with the Apex sear. Space between the overtravel stops on the trigger and frame is too small for me to get a good reading with the calipers.
The pull weight has been reduced dramatically...I don't have a trigger pull scale but just using my gut I'd say the pull dropped 3-4 pounds in weight. It now feels to be in the same range as my Burwell customized M&P 9, possibly lighter. It's difficult to say because the now longer takeup on the .45 feels "crunchy" thanks to the stock firing pin safety plunger. You really feel the trigger bar engaging it and moving it into proper position before you actually feel the sear let go. With the stock trigger you don't feel it because of the sear's earlier engagement.
Hopefully over the weekend I'll get a chance to do some live fire and ensure that it runs as expected. So far I've seen nothing that gives me any concern. The parts all seem to work just fine and the gun seems to have no problem resetting the striker that I can see from dry runs.
Thanks for the write-up and photos!
I'll be waiting for the range report.
Buckaroo
Maybe I am in the minority here but in the context of a defensive weapon I find nothing lacking in the M&P's trigger as it comes from S&W.
I respectfully disagree...I own the M&P 9 Pro and before I did the Burwell trigger job and put 300 plus round thru it the trigger was gritty and it drove me nuts , granted that's not too hard to do :rolleyes:. I own many Sigs and the M&P 9 Pro was my 1st venture into Plastic striker fired pistols so maybe I'm not the right one to judge. The guns now starting to grow on me. I shoot paper and steel and this pistol was purchased primarily as a secondary weapon for carbine classes. I rather not drop a Sig in the mud or a gravel pit. :D
I respectfully disagree...I own the M&P 9 Pro and before I did the Burwell trigger job and put 300 plus round thru it the trigger was gritty and it drove me nuts , granted that's not too hard to do :rolleyes:. I own many Sigs and the M&P 9 Pro was my 1st venture into Plastic striker fired pistols so maybe I'm not the right one to judge. The guns now starting to grow on me. I shoot paper and steel and this pistol was purchased primarily as a secondary weapon for carbine classes. I rather not drop a Sig in the mud or a gravel pit. :D
No offense but why would you not train with a weapon you are likely to use in a defensive situation? If your gun is too pretty for a carbine class why would you carry it? Its a tool, not an ornament.
JW, ty for the writeup, the illustration of the engagement points is seriously cool although i wonder what it will do the reset. Ive short stroked my M&P's quite a few times and having a longer reset is definitely not something im interested in although like many i wouldnt begrudge a more positive feel. :)
John_Wayne777
12-31-09, 18:11
JW, ty for the writeup, the illustration of the engagement points is seriously cool although i wonder what it will do the reset. Ive short stroked my M&P's quite a few times and having a longer reset is definitely not something im interested in although like many i wouldnt begrudge a more positive feel. :)
The trigger reset is shortened to the aforementioned sear engagement point...which is considerably shorter. The Apex sear resets with very little movement...which should be a boon to those who have trouble short stroking the reset. Doing my usual reset practice so far I generally overshoot the reset if I miss it.
Not trying to drift the thread...but in response I live in Maryland and don't have a CCW permit so the M&P is what I train with at Carbine classes and is what I would use if the SHTF as a secondary weapon. I own many guns and they are not safe queens so I get trigger time with them all.
JW.
Awesome, thanks for the update.
Really looking forward to receiving some new sears!
mike benedict
01-01-10, 14:48
I dropped the Apex sear in my Carry M&P .45 compact today
It currently has a 7lb trigger, which is good for me in a carry pistol.
With the Apex sear it dropped to 5lbs with a bit of creep.
The trigger breaks just as the trigger touches the frame mounted trigger stop. So no over travel none at all. If I play with finger position I can make it not fire.
Mike
John_Wayne777
01-05-10, 18:22
I finally managed to get to the range tonight and put 150 rounds through the M&P .45.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190036AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
The first 5 shots I tried at 25 yards:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185821AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185842AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
Remington 230 grain FMJ ammo...quite possibly the dirtiest ammo on the market. The front sight went from yellow to gray in less than 1 box.
I pulled the target back to a little under 10 yards and tried a 5 shot group in the UPC code on the target.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190002AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
I can live with that.
The sear functioned as expected, with the trigger seeming to improve just a bit as the session went on. The reset wasn't a problem, but I'm used to the relatively anemic reset of the M&P trigger so take that for what it's worth.
I'm on the waiting list for the Apex sear, but I've also been on the waiting list for the speed shooter specialties sear. Does anyone have any experience?
I heard SSS originally came out with one months ago, but pulled it immediately do to an issue with hardening process.
No pics not a lot of info, but it's on their site as of today.
http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/catalog/displayitem.php?rowid=847&type=M&P Replacement Sear
MarshallDodge
01-06-10, 18:01
Maybe I am in the minority here but in the context of a defensive weapon I find nothing lacking in the M&P's trigger as it comes from S&W.
After a couple hundred rounds and a little Super Lube on the contact points, I feel the same way.
That being said, I am going to purchase one of these sears to play with.
The guys @ APEX rushed me out a sear last Friday on short notice for me to test out during a 2-day pistol skills class that my PD sent me to on Tuesday & Wednesday @ the Orland Park, IL. PD. The instructors for the class were Chief Jeff Chudwin (Olympia Fields, IL. PD) and Rob Donaldson of Strike Tactical. (They did a fantastic job!)
The APEX sear came in on Monday, and I was able to drop it in my new M&P9 fullsize in-time for the class.
After the initial install, I noticed a dramatic reduction in the weight of the trigger pull, and the reset was shortened to about half of what it was with the factory sear. I dont have a Lyman scale to weigh the trigger pull, but it feels to be right around 4lbs. to me. However, the reset was hardly perceptible, and was actually less positive than with the factory sear. I ended up ever so slightly tweaking the trigger bar by bending it toward the sear/away from the frame. This made the reset much more positive and was to my satisfaction.
During the 2 day class I fired 500rds thru the M&P9 with the APEX "Hard Sear". I had zero malfunctions relating to the pistol other than one shooter induced malfunction when I holstered the pistol slightly out of battery causing a failure to fire on the next string of fire. (My fault, not the guns).
At the end of day 2 of the class, we finished off with a pretty slick qualification course of fire which required the shooter to fire a total of 10 rounds into a 4x6" index card @ 7 yards within a time limit of 18 seconds. In order to pass the qual the shooter also had to address a failure to fire malfunction & a reload within the 18 second time limit will no misses off of the card. The shooter was also required to be moving during the initial draw/presentation, and while clearing the malfunction and while conducting the reload.
I was able to pass the qual with the best time of the class, and im sure the pistol/sear combo contributed to my run, so needless to say I am very pleased with the M&P9/APEX sear combo.
I was the only shooter running an M&P in the class, and the rest of the group was a mix of Glock 9/.40/.45's, a couple of Sig's, and a couple of high end 1911's.
I am currently running this particular pistol/sear combo thru the "2,000 round Challenge", and I hope to be half way there by the end of next week. At that point, if this combo proves to be reliable, It will be my permanent "Duty Pistol" without hesitation.
Personally, I like my M&P triggers to be right at 5lbs., so I am looking forward to getting a factory MA compliant trigger return spring, or one of the APEX trigger return springs that they have coming out to get me at or slightly above 5lbs. More updates to follow as I put more rounds down-range....
Stay safe,
Nick
This question was asked already but not answered. Does this drop in sear void the warranty. My department doesn't take kindly to any alterations let alone anything that voids warranties for liability reasons (no matter how much I beg them on things...)
Thx
SNY
This question was asked already but not answered. Does this drop in sear void the warranty. My department doesn't take kindly to any alterations let alone anything that voids warranties for liability reasons (no matter how much I beg them on things...)
Thx
SNY
This type of question has come up before. I have received different answers from S&W (just submitted the question again).
Generally speaking, they would prefer that a certified armorer do the install (like us). ;)
C4
Nick,
Good post man, thank you for the info.
I will have my sears next week if all goes well and will be installing them into my 9c and full size 9.
I too will probably end up going with with MA return spring IF i can source it. I like the quicker reset associated with these springs.
What exactly did you do to your triggerbar? Its not quite clear how you bent it just from your posting.
This type of question has come up before. I have received different answers from S&W (just submitted the question again).
Generally speaking, they would prefer that a certified armorer do the install (like us). ;)
C4
Or me. :D
Thanks again for asking them Grant.
SNY
decodeddiesel
01-15-10, 09:23
Nick,
Good post man, thank you for the info.
I will have my sears next week if all goes well and will be installing them into my 9c and full size 9.
I too will probably end up going with with MA return spring IF i can source it. I like the quicker reset associated with these springs.
What exactly did you do to your triggerbar? Its not quite clear how you bent it just from your posting.
Ditto on all.
I would like to see these trigger bar modifications outlined as well Nick.
Or me. :D
Thanks again for asking them Grant.
SNY
Just got off the phone with a S&W Rep.
They would MUCH prefer that an authorized M&P armorer do the install.
If you install the sear and the gun fails to function properly and send it back to S&W, they will remove any and all none factory parts. They will then in-stall S&W authorized parts and charge you for it (and you most likely won't get your after market parts back).
So if you bugger something up during the install and need to send the gun back to S&W, make sure to remove the none factory parts FIRST! ;)
C4
Good on Apex for addressing the difficulty of acquiring MA trigger springs. I look forward to trying out an Apex sear/Apex spring setup at my first opportunity.
Ditto on all.
I would like to see these trigger bar modifications outlined as well Nick.
Guys,
I got the idea from watching the APEX sear install video that is posted on their site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAJKLHNRF04&feature=player_embedded#
Check the 4min 47sec point on the video, when he describes the trigger bar snapping back under the sear when it resets. After installing the APEX sear in my M&P9 I noticed that it was functioning as shown in the 4min 47sec point in the video, but it wasnt snapping back under the sear with any kind of authority. So I decided to ever-so-slightly bend the rear portion of the trigger bar in towards the sear, and away from the right side of the frame by using a set of needle-nose pliers. You can do it with the trigger assembly still installed in the frame, but you have to be extremely careful not to damage the trigger return spring or bend anything else out of spec while doing so. When I state "ever-so-slightly", I mean just that!;)
30 cal slut
01-15-10, 12:45
oh bloody heck there goes the month's food budget.
decodeddiesel
01-15-10, 12:50
Guys,
I got the idea from watching the APEX sear install video that is posted on their site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAJKLHNRF04&feature=player_embedded#
Check the 4min 47sec point on the video, when he describes the trigger bar snapping back under the sear when it resets. After installing the APEX sear in my M&P9 I noticed that it was functioning as shown in the 4min 47sec point in the video, but it wasnt snapping back under the sear with any kind of authority. So I decided to ever-so-slightly bend the rear portion of the trigger bar in towards the sear, and away from the right side of the frame by using a set of needle-nose pliers. You can do it with the trigger assembly still installed in the frame, but you have to be extremely careful not to damage the trigger return spring or bend anything else out of spec while doing so. When I state "ever-so-slightly", I mean just that!;)
I see what you did there. Interesting...
If you ordered a sear from us before 3:00 PM (Pacific time) today, your sear is packed and ready to ship.
They will be delivered to the Post Office in the morning for delivery all across the country.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/Outgoingmail-1.jpg
Thank you to our friends and customers here and on other forums for making this product so successful.
If you ordered a sear from us before 3:00 PM (Pacific time) today, your sear is packed and ready to ship.
They will be delivered to the Post Office in the morning for delivery all across the country.
Thank you to our friends and customers here and on other forums for making this product so successful.
Thank you for keeping us informed and involved.
CaptainDooley
01-18-10, 17:32
I just hope mine isn't one of those with sharpie through the address... I don't think they'll make it...
dwhitehorne
01-19-10, 08:18
I just hope mine isn't one of those with sharpie through the address... I don't think they'll make it...
I'm guessing that just photo editing for CYA. Mine's in there somewhere. Can't wait to try it out. David
Excellent! Can't wait to get them.
NCPatrolAR
01-19-10, 16:14
If you ordered a sear from us before 3:00 PM (Pacific time) today, your sear is packed and ready to ship.
They will be delivered to the Post Office in the morning for delivery all across the country.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/Outgoingmail-1.jpg
Thank you to our friends and customers here and on other forums for making this product so successful.
excellent. Mine will be going in my 40c
dwhitehorne
01-21-10, 15:04
I got mine in this afternoon. Took about 5 minutes to install in my wife's 9mm. WOW what an improvement. I had modified the stock sear last year following the Burwell instructions and was pleased with that. This new Apex sear is much more crisp. I am very pleased and will definately be getting another for my M&P 40. Going to the range tomorrow morning to test it out. David
I got mine in this afternoon also.
Guess no one likes Florida.
Still waiting on mine! Drooling in anticipation!
CaptainDooley
01-21-10, 17:02
Just got mine - now if the M&P would get here...
ETA: M&P came in tonight. Sear and MA TRS installed - all seems well.
LonghunterCO
01-21-10, 20:56
Are these available from Apex now are is this a get in line for the next batch?
(Web site says next batch in 3-4 weeks but it also says that there are 28 in stock)
Are these available from Apex now are is this a get in line for the next batch?
(Web site says next batch in 3-4 weeks but it also says that there are 28 in stock)
Ahh, you might want to recheck that....It's -28, now -29 as I ordered one, meaning there 29 of us with one or more on backorder...
Ahh, you might want to recheck that....It's -28, now -29 as I ordered one, meaning there 29 of us with one or more on backorder...
Greetings,
We should have more available in roughly 2 weeks. The next run is in process as we speak. For those who absolutely cannot wait, Kenny Dickerson of Speed Shooter Specialties is now carrying our sear along with other great products. He may still have some left.
-Randy
Great video explaining how to install it. I'll be ordering mine today.
LonghunterCO
01-22-10, 11:11
Greetings,
We should have more available in roughly 2 weeks. The next run is in process as we speak. For those who absolutely cannot wait, Kenny Dickerson of Speed Shooter Specialties is now carrying our sear along with other great products. He may still have some left.
-Randy
Really interested in this. Went ahead and ordered from Kenny...I needed some other stuff from him too.;)
NCPatrolAR
01-22-10, 11:17
My sear came in last night and I installed it after I got home. The change in the trigger was immediately noticeable and well worth the price. This may become a standard addition to any future M&Ps I purchase.
Really interested in this. Went ahead and ordered from Kenny...I needed some other stuff from him too.;)
Great! Kenny is a great guy and I am honored that he is willing to carry our product line.
The_Biased_Observer
01-22-10, 11:48
I'm curious why SSS is saying the Apex sear wont work in the 45 compact? I have one installed and seems to work fine, with the break occurring very close to where it occurs in the mid size model.... Something else I should be worrying about?
I'm curious why SSS is saying the Apex sear wont work in the 45 compact? I have one installed and seems to work fine, with the break occurring very close to where it occurs in the mid size model.... Something else I should be worrying about?
Nothing to worry about for your guns. I found that some of the trigger bar loops are formed in slightly different positions. In a couple of guns, the sear release was at the point of zero overtravel. If yours is dropping the striker, your gun is good to go.
-Randy
Received my sears and installed them in my 9 and 9c.
Im impressed, very impressed, impressed to the point of almost being scared lol. The triggers feel very light and the reset is infinitely more noticeable. I will say that the reset on my full size is more of a distinct click than on my compact.
This may have something to do with the round count differences on the two pistols seeing as my full size has had almost 30k through it and the compact is still under 2k if i recall correctly.
Tested both triggers on a pull gauge and we were right around 4 pounds with both.
I am exceedingly pleased with this product. It is essentially a 29 dollar trigger job. You cant beat it.
Thank you Randy, i am exceedingly pleased.
Installed mine in a FS 9 and a .40c
Easy as pie even though I watched the video yesterday (thanks!)
First impression is "niiice."
Off to the range tomorrow!
Buckaroo
Received my sear last Friday. Installed it Saturday morning.
Prior to getting this sear, I did my own Dave Burwell trigger job. The biggest culprit in the crunchy gritty trigger was the firing pin plunger. I did reshape and polish sear/trigger bar area and file down the top side where it meets w/ the striker. Also smoothed up the striker. Crunchy/gritty trigger became considerably smoother, weight was lightened a bit and trigger reset was slightly improved.
W/ the Apex sear installed. Trigger weight is dramatically dropped and trigger reset is vastly improved. There is now a noticeable click in the reset, where even w/ my modified sear, the reset was ..... eh. Apex took a lot of metal off the trigger bar/sear engagement area. Again, huge difference in weight and reset.
Just got my 2 in the mail and will get them installed in a 9C and 9FS tomorrow and then take them to the range. Just from the look of them they look very very well manufactured.
Put a few hundred down range today in both guns combined. Reset is much shorter and much much more pronounced than before. The trigger break is very clean and alot smoother than stock, even though I dont have anything done to the plunger on either gun. I need to get some more trigger time behind the gun, but for the first time out I really like it.
I have not
I have. I sent my M&P45 FS off to David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts and it came back a whole new gun, and I do not exaggerate when I say that. The reset is extremely firm and the click very apparent (I would say just as much as a Glock if not slightly more so, and I have shot many-a-Glock). It is also slightly shorter, but MUCH smoother. IMO, and I have researched all of the options out there, he is the BEST option for the M&P trigger (as well as a variety of other services).
Having said that, I'm sure the Apex sear is very good, especially for those considering a lower-cost option.
wife says the package came today.... I guess living at the end of the earth has some drawbacks :cool:
wife says the package came today.... I guess living at the end of the earth has some drawbacks :cool:
But a beautiful end of the earth it is!
I'll be picking up a M&P9 in the next couple of weeks and will have to order one. My biggest complaint about the M&Ps, besides the general inconsistancy of trigger between individual guns, has been the lack of reset. It sounds like this could fix both those issues!
decodeddiesel
01-26-10, 20:00
Whelp I hate to be the guy who rains on everyone's parade, but I have not seen a favorable improvement with the reset in my M&P9C. Don't get me wrong, the trigger got way lighter and crisper, and the reset is sooner, but the reset is less discernible. I dropped in a SSS Ti plunger at the same time as the Apex Sear but I doubt that would have an effect on the reset. I am waiting for Scott to release his trigger return spring. I would like to get a hold of MA compliant spring and try it out in the mean time.
Conversely in my M&P45 the Apex Sear helped the reset a lot, and really helped out the trigger. It feels like a different pistol!
Gentle Ben
01-26-10, 20:24
Whelp I hate to be the guy who rains on everyone's parade, but I have not seen a favorable improvement with the reset in my M&P9C. Don't get me wrong, the trigger got way lighter and crisper, and the reset is sooner, but the reset is less discernible. I dropped in a SSS Ti plunger at the same time as the Apex Sear but I doubt that would have an effect on the reset. I am waiting for Scott to release his trigger return spring. I would like to get a hold of MA compliant spring and try it out in the mean time.
Conversely in my M&P45 the Apex Sear helped the reset a lot, and really helped out the trigger. It feels like a different pistol!
There is quite a bit of difference in the MP triggers. I've had some come through that had nice triggers out of the box, and some that were terrible, some with firm resets, and some with no feeling of reset at all.
Whelp I hate to be the guy who rains on everyone's parade, but I have not seen a favorable improvement with the reset in my M&P9C. Don't get me wrong, the trigger got way lighter and crisper, and the reset is sooner, but the reset is less discernible. I dropped in a SSS Ti plunger at the same time as the Apex Sear but I doubt that would have an effect on the reset. I am waiting for Scott to release his trigger return spring. I would like to get a hold of MA compliant spring and try it out in the mean time.
Conversely in my M&P45 the Apex Sear helped the reset a lot, and really helped out the trigger. It feels like a different pistol!
I suspect that your trigger bar is one of those that bumps against the Plunger as it returns to the sear reset point. You can verify this by removing the striker block and spring. If your reset returns to a more discernable feel/sound, there is definite interference. There is such a wide variation in tolerance with the trigger bars that some will experience this problem.
We are selling our striker blocks with a reduced power plunger spring because the factory spring exacerbates not only the grittiness, but the loss of audible/tactile reset of the trigger bar. Our springs arrived yesterday, but the plungers are still in process. PM me and I will send you out a spring to test.
-Randy
decodeddiesel
01-26-10, 20:37
I suspect that your trigger bar is one of those that bumps against the Plunger as it returns to the sear reset point. You can verify this by removing the striker block and spring. If your reset returns to a more discernable feel/sound, there is definite interference. There is such a wide variation in tolerance with the trigger bars that some will experience this problem.
We are selling our striker blocks with a reduced power plunger spring because the factory spring exacerbates not only the grittiness, but the loss of audible/tactile reset of the trigger bar. Our springs arrived yesterday, but the plungers are still in process. PM me and I will send you out a spring to test.
-Randy
Awesome, thank you for the response!
Just to clear the air, please don't take my post as a ding to your product. I still think it's awesome you guys brought this sear to market.
PM sent.
CaptainDooley
01-27-10, 08:58
Randy,
Is there an ETA, estimated cost, and/or waiting list for the striker block and plunger+spring?
Randy,
Is there an ETA, estimated cost, and/or waiting list for the striker block and plunger+spring?
We should have the final pre-production run here by friday. Once I do a final aproval the machine will start spitting them out. The springs are already here. I expect they will go to heat treat early next week. So a real ETA is approximately 2 weeks for the first production run. I hope Lisa doesn't hit me on the head for this, but I think the polished striker block, spring and rear sight tool that will hold the plinger spring cover plate in position(while you reinstall your rear sight) will be around $26.00.
We should have the final pre-production run here by friday. Once I do a final aproval the machine will start spitting them out. The springs are already here. I expect they will go to heat treat early next week. So a real ETA is approximately 2 weeks for the first production run. I hope Lisa doesn't hit me on the head for this, but I think the polished striker block, spring and rear sight tool that will hold the plinger spring cover plate in position(while you reinstall your rear sight) will be around $26.00.
These are the plunger springs, not the stronger trigger springs, right?
I'm very interested in trying your sear and block together, but I'd like to do the stronger trigger spring at the same time. Thanks.
These are the plunger springs, not the stronger trigger springs, right?
I'm very interested in trying your sear and block together, but I'd like to do the stronger trigger spring at the same time. Thanks.
You are correct.
We just sent out the specs for our sear springs and the TRS to our spring fabricator yesterday. We should hear something the middle of next week.
The price for the striker block kit is $24.95... my bad.
Mine arrived in the mail today, and it took a grand total of 5 minutes to install. For the effort (for the end user) and price I'm pretty amazed! :D
The initial travel feel is different, with stronger resistance, then a break around 4.5lb if I were to guess, and much less overtravel. Reset is noticeably stronger as well, and mine made an audible little click from the beginning so it was on the better side of things from what I've read of other's experience. I also like that the total travel didn't change.
Going to build ammo tonight and head to the range tomorrow to check out how it works for me.
well, that was stupid easy to install :)
It made a HUGE difference in the trigger! I would HIGHLY recommend this product for your M&P
Thank you again Randy
ETA: I installed it in the time it took for the video to end, and then took it to my 'range' out behind my house for a quick test run. Living in the sticks is AWESOME
Thanks again for all your feedback. We will continue to improve our products and evolve our product line based upon your input.
I just placed my order. Want wait to get it, trying installing the sear, and screwing up so badly that I will need to take it to a smith.
Randy,
Is there an ETA, estimated cost, and/or waiting list for the striker block and plunger+spring?
Would like to get on the list also.
I just placed my order. Want wait to get it, trying installing the sear, and screwing up so badly that I will need to take it to a smith.
Not sure you can do that, it is way too simple!
Buckaroo
Got my sear in. Very nice!
I am going to polish it up a bit and see how the feel is.
We have also picked up a Dealer account with APEX and will be stocking all their M&P products. We will also offer installation of their products on M&P's purchased through us for FREE!
C4
Got my sear in. Very nice!
I am going to polish it up a bit and see how the feel is.
We have also picked up a Dealer account with APEX and will be stocking all their M&P products. We will also offer installation of their products on M&P's purchased through us for FREE!
C4
That's great news for both APEX and G&R!!! Congrats.
I think it has been said before but I will repeat it "Grant is the Man"!
Not sure you can do that, it is way too simple!
Buckaroo
LOL. After what I just did to my sons pinewood derby car, you shouldn't understate my ability to screw up. I just watched the video again and it shouldn't be that bad.
John_Wayne777
01-29-10, 20:28
Got my sear in. Very nice!
I am going to polish it up a bit and see how the feel is.
We have also picked up a Dealer account with APEX and will be stocking all their M&P products. We will also offer installation of their products on M&P's purchased through us for FREE!
C4
Good move, Grant.
Good move, Grant.
Thanks.
Every once in awhile I have a good idea.
C4
Thanks.
Every once in awhile I have a good idea.
C4
I'm just happy Lisa didn't use our test M&P on our fax machine. :p
Would like to get on the list also.
Will do. Anyone who is interested in being on the list for the plunger kits, please email or PM me so I can get an accurate head count. I seem to be having more senior moments these days...
-Randy
I'm just happy Lisa didn't use our test M&P on our fax machine. :p
Ya, I was so over faxing you paper work, that I was going to buy you a fax maching and send it to you. :D
C4
Robb Jensen
01-30-10, 08:27
I put my Apex sear in my M&P45 and polished up really well with Simichrome polish and added a new S&W Mass. trigger spring. I also installed a Speed Shooters Specialties titanium firing pin safety. It's actually a bit smoother and has a nicer break with a tiny bit short reset than my genuine S&W Pro sear in my M&P Pro. I shortened the reset in the Pro but it's still not as short as the Apex sear. I'll probably be putting the Apex sear in my Pro since the Pro is a competition only gun anyway. The Pro also has a SSS titanium firing pin safety.
Also the new Warren Tactical .190" tall front night sights meant for 5" M&Ps works really well.
Don't be surprised if you see Lisa post "Willing to trade sears for new office equipment." :eek:
Don't be surprised if you see Lisa post "Willing to trade sears for new office equipment." :eek:
Don't tempt me!
C4
Will do. Anyone who is interested in being on the list for the plunger kits, please email or PM me so I can get an accurate head count. I seem to be having more senior moments these days...
-Randy
Randy, please put me down for a plunger kit. I'll wait on the sear until the plungers are ready and you can ship all at the same time.
Randy, please put me down for a plunger kit. I'll wait on the sear until the plungers are ready and you can ship all at the same time.
Will do!
Ditto! Put it together with a rounded safety plunger and a better striker and it's a trigger job and reliability package in a box.
That's a great idea. Sell a higher quality striker and I'd be interested in M&P's again for sure.
Yeah, I agree with Subzero and dinger; make a striker that can stand up to dry firing, combined that with your sear and firing pin plunger kit and you've got a kick ass package!
decodeddiesel
01-30-10, 11:35
I put my Apex sear in my M&P45 and polished up really well with Simichrome polish and added a new S&W Mass. trigger spring.
Can anyone help me out with a line on a MA trigger spring? I really would like to use one in my Compact. I called S&W to try and order it and they wouldn't sell it to me.
Yeah, I agree with Subzero and dinger; make a striker that can stand up to dry firing, combined that with your sear and firing pin plunger kit and you've got a kick ass package!
Agreed. Some kind of page like that sounds great. Just add in a spring to strenghen the reset some.
Speaking of strengthening the reset, between the threads on all of the forums, I've forgotten what Apex has said concerning plans to address this.
Are there plans to sell a stronger trigger return spring (like the rare S&W Mass-compliant spring) to strenghen the reset?
(I know there's also been some talk of folks wanted a bit heavier pull than what resulted after the Apex sear was installed.)
Yeah, I agree with Subzero and dinger; make a striker that can stand up to dry firing, combined that with your sear and firing pin plunger kit and you've got a kick ass package!
Go over the the M&P site..Smith has been using a new striker, a Stainless machined striker (not MIM) I haven't heard of anyone breaking one yet...They have pics of it on the board, it looks alot beefier than the old MIM striker.
We should have the final pre-production run here by friday. Once I do a final aproval the machine will start spitting them out. The springs are already here. I expect they will go to heat treat early next week. So a real ETA is approximately 2 weeks for the first production run. I hope Lisa doesn't hit me on the head for this, but I think the polished striker block, spring and rear sight tool that will hold the plinger spring cover plate in position(while you reinstall your rear sight) will be around $26.00.
Randy, I just placed an order for a sear, put my in line for a striker. Or just about anything else you can make for $26.00 that will greatly improve a good gun, for that matter. Thanks.
pb
Go over the the M&P site..Smith has been using a new striker, a Stainless machined striker (not MIM) I haven't heard of anyone breaking one yet...They have pis of it on the board, it looks alot beefier than the old MIM striker.
Ralph, I'm a moderator over there and I know they have a new one. However, my confidence still isn't there. This is their forth revision and while I haven't heard of a new one breaking I think it's too early to tell.
CaptainDooley
01-30-10, 14:16
Can anyone help me out with a line on a MA trigger spring? I really would like to use one in my Compact. I called S&W to try and order it and they wouldn't sell it to me.
laroccagunworks.com might be able to help you out.
LonghunterCO
01-30-10, 15:32
Can anyone help me out with a line on a MA trigger spring? I really would like to use one in my Compact. I called S&W to try and order it and they wouldn't sell it to me.
email sent.
Did the install/polishing today.
For fun, I polished the Apex Sear, Trigger Bar and Striker.
Something I noticed on my trigger bar and striker were deep scratches/dents. So those of you doing the install, make sure to look at these items closely and remove any tool marks.
After completion, the trigger pull is cleaner and the reset is MUCH shorter and has a distinct reset that is Glock like.
Onto the pics...
C4
APEX Sear (polished)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/APEX_SEAR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/APEX_SEAR1.jpg
Trigger bar (polished
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Trigger_Bar.jpg
Striker (polished)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Striker.jpg
We are currently working on a bomb-proof striker. As far as I know the latest version striker from Smith also uses a different spring cup and channel liner. I have one of the new striker assemblies coming from Smith this week to check out. I think the sear engagement face on the factory version could be improved for smoothness of finish. Our dilemma is that we may need to make 2 different versions if the latest factory one breaks. So we will begin testing the first pattern that fits the original spring cups and liners first and see where that leads us.
We will have a stronger trigger return spring soon, but we need to make sure it is durable. Life expectancy tests will suck until we make a mechanical fixture to cycle the trigger. I think many will notice a more distinct trigger reset once they install our striker block and spring. The stronger trigger return spring will obviously increase trigger pull weight, but it will add to the tactile feel of the trigger reset. We will keep you posted as our field data comes in... stay tuned.
Ralph, I'm a moderator over there and I know they have a new one. However, my confidence still isn't there. This is their forth revision and while I haven't heard of a new one breaking I think it's too early to tell.
True, it's too early to tell, But,all the other revisions have been MIM..My undestanding is this new one is'nt. Frankly, anytime you get away from MIM , the better off you are, While MIM has it's uses, an important part such as a striker isn't one of them, in my opinion, OTOH, I haven't had any problems with either of mine, my M&P.45 has 2100rnds and hundreds more dry fires with a snap cap. My M&P9 about half as much, Maybe forged stainless is the answer??
Robb Jensen
01-30-10, 19:46
Did the install/polishing today.
For fun, I polished the Apex Sear, Trigger Bar and Striker.
Something I noticed on my trigger bar and striker were deep scratches/dents. So those of you doing the install, make sure to look at these items closely and remove any tool marks.
After completion, the trigger pull is cleaner and the reset is MUCH shorter and has a distinct reset that is Glock like.
Onto the pics...
C4
APEX Sear (polished)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/APEX_SEAR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/APEX_SEAR1.jpg
Trigger bar (polished
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Trigger_Bar.jpg
Striker (polished)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Striker.jpg
Damn brother you need to crank down the F stops (you need a much higher number) crank up the ISO and find the right shutter speed so that much more of that is in focus! That macro lens isn't what you should have used for this.
We are currently working on a bomb-proof striker. As far as I know the latest version striker from Smith also uses a different spring cup and channel liner. I have one of the new striker assemblies coming from Smith this week to check out. I think the sear engagement face on the factory version could be improved for smoothness of finish. Our dilemma is that we may need to make 2 different versions if the latest factory one breaks. So we will begin testing the first pattern that fits the original spring cups and liners first and see where that leads us.
We will have a stronger trigger return spring soon, but we need to make sure it is durable. Life expectancy tests will suck until we make a mechanical fixture to cycle the trigger. I think many will notice a more distinct trigger reset once they install our striker block and spring. The stronger trigger return spring will obviously increase trigger pull weight, but it will add to the tactile feel of the trigger reset. We will keep you posted as our field data comes in... stay tuned.
Damn Randy, you all are kicking ass!
True, it's too early to tell, But,all the other revisions have been MIM..My undestanding is this new one is'nt. Frankly, anytime you get away from MIM , the better off you are, While MIM has it's uses, an important part such as a striker isn't one of them, in my opinion, OTOH, I haven't had any problems with either of mine, my M&P.45 has 2100rnds and hundreds more dry fires with a snap cap. My M&P99 about half as much, Maybe forged stainless is the answer??
I'm with you, they probably are worlds better and I hope so...really I do.
Heavy Metal
01-30-10, 19:59
Go over the the M&P site..Smith has been using a new striker, a Stainless machined striker (not MIM) I haven't heard of anyone breaking one yet...They have pics of it on the board, it looks alot beefier than the old MIM striker.
Making a striker MIM is like making the Space Shuttle out of Strike-Anywhere matches.
What were they thinking?
CaptainDooley
01-30-10, 20:34
Damn brother you need to crank down the F stops (you need a much higher number) crank up the ISO and find the right shutter speed so that much more of that is in focus! That macro lens isn't what you should have used for this.
I think the macro lens is fine - for parts this small I'd break out my 100mm macro... but definitely, a higher F-Stop... 5.6 at least, I'd shoot for F11 if I could swing it.
Damn brother you need to crank down the F stops (you need a much higher number) crank up the ISO and find the right shutter speed so that much more of that is in focus! That macro lens isn't what you should have used for this.
LOL, DUDE! It was 15 outside and I am not trying to get my pics published in an art magazine!
C4
Robb Jensen
01-30-10, 22:22
LOL, DUDE! It was 15 outside and I am not trying to my pics published in an art magazine!
C4
You just need a strobe or two. I do most of my guns pics inside nowadays.
MIM? Can someone explain / define that to this unenlightened soul?
Robb Jensen
01-30-10, 22:46
I think the macro lens is fine - for parts this small I'd break out my 100mm macro... but definitely, a higher F-Stop... 5.6 at least, I'd shoot for F11 if I could swing it.
I agree you can use a Macro but it's just not really needed.
My Canon 50D goes to 3200 ISO but I haven't needed it yet.
MIM? Can someone explain / define that to this unenlightened soul?
MIM is Metal Injection Molding. A process where molten metal is forced into a mold to form the shape of the desired part.
The Problem with MIM parts is that to be able to inject the metal they generally mix in a bit of silicate into the steel that makes the metal less dense and therefore less durable. The presence of non carbon bearing materials means that heat treating doesn't work as well, which means parts are softer than they may need to be.
On a high stress part like the Sear or Striker, this is a bad thing because the parts are more prone to breakage.
Making a striker MIM is like making the Space Shuttle out of Strike-Anywhere matches.
What were they thinking?
I can understand their line of thinking from a manfacturing standpoint, However, you'd think common sense would've kicked in after the first revision...For whatever reason, they (S&W) just did not take the time to match the material to the job it was intended for..Three MIM striker revisions before they finally figured out that was'nt the place for MIM. Well..DUH!
I can understand their line of thinking from a manfacturing standpoint, However, you'd think common sense would've kicked in after the first revision...For whatever reason, they (S&W) just did not take the time to match the material to the job it was intended for..Three MIM striker revisions before they finally figured out that was'nt the place for MIM. Well..DUH!
Because I am old school, I have no love for MIM components which would be placed under high stress (firing pins, extractors, hammers or sears,etc.). BUT the MIM processes and material/density characteristics are improving as time goes on.
There may be a day when I trust MIM parts. I'm trying to keep an open mind. But in the meantime, we will proceed with making a billet, fully machined shock-proof steel striker...
Here is a picture of the newest striker revision (9mm) I just got a week ago . Part #27977
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1522/img0194mc.jpg
You just need a strobe or two. I do most of my guns pics inside nowadays.
I have lights and a shoot house. Didn't feel like dragging it all out for some fast pics.
C4
John_Wayne777
01-31-10, 16:07
FWIW, I'm still running all of my M&P's on Gen 2 strikers. No problems...but I, unlike some others whom I shall not name, use snap-caps. :D
MIM is Metal Injection Molding. A process where molten metal is forced into a mold to form the shape of the desired part.
The Problem with MIM parts is that to be able to inject the metal they generally mix in a bit of silicate into the steel that makes the metal less dense and therefore less durable. The presence of non carbon bearing materials means that heat treating doesn't work as well, which means parts are softer than they may need to be.
On a high stress part like the Sear or Striker, this is a bad thing because the parts are more prone to breakage.
is the metal molten or powdered? my understanding is MIM is akin to sintering, correct?
Here is a picture of the newest striker revision (9mm) I just got a week ago . Part #27977
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1522/img0194mc.jpg
Thanks for the picture John!
FWIW, I'm still running all of my M&P's on Gen 2 strikers. No problems...but I, unlike some others whom I shall not name, use snap-caps. :D
Not that I dry fire much to begin with (yeah, I know...shame on me) but when I pick up another M&P in a week or so I'm going to call S&W and get the latest and greatest. If nothing else for the added insurance. I mean, why not have a "product improved" striker, right? :D
It's not that big of a deal, at least it's not a flawed design like some other major handgun manufacture pumps out. ;)
:D
FWIW, I'm still running all of my M&P's on Gen 2 strikers. No problems...but I, unlike some others whom I shall not name, use snap-caps. :D
So am I. In fact, not one of the LE M&P's I have sold have had an issue (that I am aware of).
C4
is the metal molten or powdered? my understanding is MIM is akin to sintering, correct?
I'm not 100% certain, but the book I have on MIM, recommends the use of a centerfuge and molten metal.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there appear to be mold lines on the newest-revision 9mm striker (I have two of them) so the latest revision would seem to be a MIM part just like the older revisions.
On the plus side, they do look to be higher-quality than the older revisions:
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx262/MichaelD_Utah/27977striker1.png
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx262/MichaelD_Utah/27977striker2.png
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx262/MichaelD_Utah/27977striker3.png
So am I. In fact, not one of the LE M&P's I have sold have had an issue (that I am aware of).
C4
Yeah but that's not saying much because the LE models go through a more stringent QC process than their non-LE guns.
Thanks for the pictues and info MichaelD! The new strikers certainly look beefier than the last ones I changed out! Personally I'm not as concerned about MIM as some but I still think APEX has a wonderful opportunity here!
Personally I'm not as concerned about MIM as some but I still think APEX has a wonderful opportunity here!
Same here. More aftermarket parts for the M&P is definitely a good thing, especially if they're better than stock parts.
Same here. More aftermarket parts for the M&P is definitely a good thing, especially if they're better than stock parts.
Absolutely!
[QUOTE= Personally I'm not as concerned about MIM as some but I still think APEX has a wonderful opportunity here![/QUOTE]
Well, I guess after seeing those close ups of the new striker, I don't have to worry about calling S&W for the latest revison...I'll wait for Apex to get theirs out...
Yeah but that's not saying much because the LE models go through a more stringent QC process than their non-LE guns.
Sorry for the thread derail; could you expound upon the differences in QC between LE/non-LE pistols?
Well, I guess after seeing those close ups of the new striker, I don't have to worry about calling S&W for the latest revison...I'll wait for Apex to get theirs out...
It's still worth getting one; there is a significant improvement in trigger feel vs. the old striker.
It's still worth getting one; there is a significant improvement in trigger feel vs. the old striker.
I have to agree with Michael (even though I have no first hand experience with the new striker and it's effect on the trigger). It's worth getting just for the added insurance. Unless, of course, you have an LE model then I guess you already have a better striker.
Unless, of course, you have an LE model then I guess you already have a better striker.
Is this confirmed?
Is this confirmed?
Yes, they go through a more stringent QC process.
is the metal molten or powdered? my understanding is MIM is akin to sintering, correct?
MIM is powdered metal with polymer binders so it will hold shape when pressed in a mold. It is then sintered to remove the binders and make the parts more dense.
I'm not 100% certain, but the book I have on MIM, recommends the use of a centerfuge and molten metal.
I would bet that is refering to the production of the metal powders for MIM. The powders are often made by dropping a stream of molten metal onto a spinning disc. Or by blasting a stream of molten metal with compressed inert gas.
Yes, they go through a more stringent QC process.
QC doesn't make parts, so this would just be a sorting process to reject more semi-questionable parts. If the part in question is still made to the same print, this is a hokey way to go about fixing problems. They should change the print to tighten up process parameters **IF** MIM is a suitable way to make the part, or change the material to something more suitable.
Execs and purchasing agents pushing for cheap parts and forcing inappropriate designs into MIM has done 20 times more damage to MIMs image than all the legitimate failures ever could.
Yes, they go through a more stringent QC process.
Interesting.
Who has confirmed this? So S&W has two different QC processes depending on the customer?
Interesting.
Who has confirmed this? So S&W has two different QC processes depending on the customer?
Correct.
Most any company that has a distinct LE program, will have different standards. For instance, they might run 3 mags through the gun before shipping. In other instances, the gun might get different parts.
I have seen both of the above happen.
C4
Correct.
Most any company that has a distinct LE program, will have different standards. For instance, they might run 3 mags through the gun before shipping. In other instances, the gun might get different parts.
I have seen both of the above happen.
C4
Interesting.
What does S&W do specifically different for the LE M&P handguns? Are LE M&P's marked as LE guns in anyway?
Interesting.
What does S&W do specifically different for the LE M&P handguns? Are LE M&P's marked as LE guns in anyway?
IIRC they roll off two different lines, get different parts and more QC checks. I don't believe they are marked any differently though. Oh and they get another mag.
Interesting.
What does S&W do specifically different for the LE M&P handguns? Are LE M&P's marked as LE guns in anyway?
LE guns have specific SKU's.
As I have stated many times on this forum, folks should ALWAYS try and get an LE gun (no matter if it is a G-Lock, Sig or S&W).
C4
LE guns have specific SKU's.
As I have stated many times on this forum, folks should ALWAYS try and get an LE gun (no matter if it is a G-Lock, Sig or S&W).
C4
The question is do the LEO guns go through a different assembly process where they received better or upgraded parts and more checks than non-LE guns?
I believe you've stated that they do, correct?
The question is do the LEO guns go through a different assembly process where they received better or upgraded parts and more checks than non-LE guns?
I believe you've stated that they do, correct?
I can neither confirm or deny such things. ;)
C4
I installed a MA compliant spring into my M&P9 in-conjunction with the previously installed APEX Hard Sear today. (Thanks for the springs Robb!!!)
This is exactly how the M&P's should come from the factory! (S&W, you listening???)
This trigger set-up would eliminate 99% of the complaints about the M&P's trigger pull, the reset, etc. The other 1% will never be satisfied;)
crowkiller
02-01-10, 16:01
LE guns have specific SKU's.
As I have stated many times on this forum, folks should ALWAYS try and get an LE gun (no matter if it is a G-Lock, Sig or S&W).
C4
So how does a non-LE person go about getting a LE gun? Can I buy one from you?
Anyone install the sear on the Mid-sized .45? I installed it and while the trigger pull was better, the reset was still pretty indistinct.
Still happy.
SNY
Anyone install the sear on the Mid-sized .45? I installed it and while the trigger pull was better, the reset was still pretty indistinct.
Still happy.
SNY
Has any other changes been down to your M&P45, before the sear was installed? Has you or anyone else attempted a trigger job or done any polishing already?
Yup. It had the PC package done.
Yup. It had the PC package done.
In that case I would contact Randy and get his advice on what to do next.
So Robb, you're liking it? If so, get ready to hook up my two M&P's brother. Did the wife mention to you the extraction issues I'm having with my M&P 9? Stopped shooting it because it basically became a malfunction drill gun! My biggest beefs with the triggers on both my 9 and 45 have been the lack of a perceptible reset and the overall mushy feel of the trigger. Sounds like Apex may have solved this problem.
In that case I would contact Randy and get his advice on what to do next.
Thanks, I just sent him a note.
Hi all,
Our new trigger return springs are still about 2 weeks out (seems like everything is 2 weeks out...) from production.
I have found that much of the apparent loss of trigger reset perceptibility is due to the edge of the trigger bar's vertical extension bumping the the striker block as you release the trigger. I have outlined a diagnostic procedure in our FAQ section on our website. If you can feel and hear the snap of the trigger reset under the sear cam with the slide off, this is the problem.
Our new striker block and spring will help with this situation and should bring the reset to a more detectable level. The new trigger return spring will amplify the results.
-Randy
I finally ordered an APEX sear for my M&P 45. I can't take this horrible trigger anymore.
I have to laugh at some of the stupid comments I've read on other boards about installing something like the APEX sear in a carry gun. I mean... the trigger is so horrible that I can NOT guarantee a precision shot anywhere outside of 15 yards... so installing something that will make the shooter able to control his shot is a bad idea? :rolleyes:
I'm not one to modify guns generally.... I've never changed anything other than sights on my glock... but this trigger is the worst. :mad:
LE guns have specific SKU's.
As I have stated many times on this forum, folks should ALWAYS try and get an LE gun (no matter if it is a G-Lock, Sig or S&W).
C4
What are the L.E. SKU's for M&P's??
It's still worth getting one; there is a significant improvement in trigger feel vs. the old striker.
That may be, I'm not doubting you,But I'd rather wait for Randy's striker to come out, I've no doubt it'll be of higher quality. Maybe I'm old school, but I don't feel that MIM is the right choice of material for a high stress part like a striker. When Randy's come out I'll buy 2, install them and keep the stock strikers as spares. The one thing I do know about MIM is, that if the part in question is flawed, I'll break early on. If it is'nt it'll give you a decent enough service life. Both mine seem to be good ones, as the .45 I have has 2100 rnds on it with alot of dry fire with a snap cap, The 9 about half as much..They're both still working.
What are the L.E. SKU's for M&P's??
There are too many to list.
C4
What are the L.E. SKU's for M&P's??
Smith and Wesson's website has all the numbers.
spamsammich
02-02-10, 11:03
What striker do I have? Mine looks nothing like the others in this thread. It looks to be machined stainless that has been nitrided. Should I be worried about it? I dry fire the bejeezus out of it.
John_Wayne777
02-02-10, 11:57
What striker do I have? Mine looks nothing like the others in this thread. It looks to be machined stainless that has been nitrided. Should I be worried about it? I dry fire the bejeezus out of it.
If it is black and you haven't already broken it then you more than likely have a 2nd generation striker. They can withstand a lot more dryfire than the first generation striker, but eventually enough dryfire will break them. Use snap caps to prolong their life. As I said earlier, I'm still on 2nd gen strikers in all my M&P's. I keep a spare striker handy as well.
If it is black and you haven't already broken it then you more than likely have a 2nd generation striker. They can withstand a lot more dryfire than the first generation striker, but eventually enough dryfire will break them. Use snap caps to prolong their life. As I said earlier, I'm still on 2nd gen strikers in all my M&P's. I keep a spare striker handy as well.
Good advice.
Dry firing is harmful (if done enough) to EVERY pistol made (yes even G-Lock's).
C4
spamsammich
02-02-10, 12:11
If it is black and you haven't already broken it then you more than likely have a 2nd generation striker. They can withstand a lot more dryfire than the first generation striker, but eventually enough dryfire will break them. Use snap caps to prolong their life. As I said earlier, I'm still on 2nd gen strikers in all my M&P's. I keep a spare striker handy as well.
Yeah it has a black nitride finish. I use snap caps at home, not so much at the range. I'll probably pick up another at some point. Thanks for the tip.
This question was asked already but not answered. Does this drop in sear void the warranty. My department doesn't take kindly to any alterations let alone anything that voids warranties for liability reasons (no matter how much I beg them on things...)
Thx
SNY
As far as we've heard, the installation of the Apex Hard Sear does not void the warranty. Smith and Wesson would prefer that their guns are only disassembled by a certified armorer, therefore we recommend that qualified Armorers do the install.
The beauty of our part is that if you have a warranty issue with the frame or slide and have to send the entire slide in, you can just replace the Apex part with te factory part and send it in to the factory.
Just my $.02
Scott
I finally ordered an APEX sear for my M&P 45. I can't take this horrible trigger anymore.
I have to laugh at some of the stupid comments I've read on other boards about installing something like the APEX sear in a carry gun. I mean... the trigger is so horrible that I can NOT guarantee a precision shot anywhere outside of 15 yards... so installing something that will make the shooter able to control his shot is a bad idea? :rolleyes:
I'm not one to modify guns generally.... I've never changed anything other than sights on my glock... but this trigger is the worst. :mad:
Mark, I am curious how many rounds you put through yours. I felt the same way about my MP45 until I had fired over 1,000 rounds. I also dry fired (with snap caps) the hell out of it. I was going to send it to the PC for a new sear.
But now, the trigger is smooth and predictable. I'm sure it could be better, but it is way nicer than when it was new.
As far as we've heard, the installation of the Apex Hard Sear does not void the warranty. Smith and Wesson would prefer that their guns are only disassembled by a certified armorer, therefore we recommend that qualified Armorers do the install.
The beauty of our part is that if you have a warranty issue with the frame or slide and have to send the entire slide in, you can just replace the Apex part with te factory part and send it in to the factory.
Just my $.02
Scott
Correct. People would be wise to keep their old Sears.
C4
Mark, I am curious how many rounds you put through yours. I felt the same way about my MP45 until I had fired over 1,000 rounds. I also dry fired (with snap caps) the hell out of it. I was going to send it to the PC for a new sear.
But now, the trigger is smooth and predictable. I'm sure it could be better, but it is way nicer than when it was new.
I've only got 300 rounds through it. It's made me take my pistol shooting back to the basics for sure. But when I set this thing down and pick up the G17 to shoot the same drill, I'm like a pro shooter.
I've only got 300 rounds through it. It's made me take my pistol shooting back to the basics for sure. But when I set this thing down and pick up the G17 to shoot the same drill, I'm like a pro shooter.
Same exprerience, consistantly low and left....and I was actually really bummed about how I shot the gun.
I picked up some snap caps and dry fired it alot. I continued to shoot it. I then got some new sights installed. I wanted to put it on paper. I fired rounds 1000-1100 that day. I put the target at 25 yards. I put 39 out of 40 into a 8x11 target. 15 yard groups were tight. I fell in love. The trigger really does get better with use.
I would, however, like to see what you think of the Apex in the 45. I am hesitant to "modify" mine because it will soon be a "duty weapon".
spamsammich
02-02-10, 18:28
I finally ordered an APEX sear for my M&P 45. I can't take this horrible trigger anymore.
I have to laugh at some of the stupid comments I've read on other boards about installing something like the APEX sear in a carry gun. I mean... the trigger is so horrible that I can NOT guarantee a precision shot anywhere outside of 15 yards... so installing something that will make the shooter able to control his shot is a bad idea? :rolleyes:
I'm not one to modify guns generally.... I've never changed anything other than sights on my glock... but this trigger is the worst. :mad:
I was pretty unimpressed with my M&P 9 trigger for the first 2-300 rounds. By 1k the grittiness was much reduced but the stacking was still there. I did my own Burwell-ish sear mod at about 1200 rounds. I think I took less off the cam than the Apex sear but I polished all surfaces Grant had pictured with a super fine stone and finished up with some flitz. Trigger pull and break are pretty damned good now, but the reset is NOWHERE near as nice as my G19 with the NY1 and Ghost 3.5 connector.
Now at 2k, trigger break is lighter than my Glock and nice and crisp, but overall pull is still kinda 2 stage. I'm hoping to get my hands on a Mass compliant spring or one of Apex's when available. I've got the Apex sear on order and would like to do a side by side comparison when it gets in.
Grant, were you planning on posting a side by side review already? If so, I'd rather let somebody with more experience and credibility than me do it. I can post pics of what I did to my sear in a different thread if people want to see, it's really not that different than the online tutorials already available though.
Well it's good to hear that there's light at the end of this trigger nightmare tunnel.
I'm no slouch on a pistol, but this thing is really good at bringing a shooter to humility. :p
So how does a non-LE person go about getting a LE gun? Can I buy one from you?
I think AIM Surplus has the the LE M&P 9mm. Comes with 3 mags and night sights. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SWMP&groupid=3
As far as we've heard, the installation of the Apex Hard Sear does not void the warranty. Smith and Wesson would prefer that their guns are only disassembled by a certified armorer, therefore we recommend that qualified Armorers do the install.
The beauty of our part is that if you have a warranty issue with the frame or slide and have to send the entire slide in, you can just replace the Apex part with te factory part and send it in to the factory.
Just my $.02
Scott
Well I got an email from my tech rep at S&W:
"Any modifications or aftermarket parts will void the warranty."
That could be a stock answer but at this time my dept. policy says we can't modify the gun outside of manufacturers specs or do anything that voids the warranty. Thus, unfortunately I had to replace the sear before I went to work just in case I got into a shooting and f'd myself.
I guess I'll keep it for now in the practice gun...
spamsammich
02-03-10, 00:30
I think AIM Surplus has the the LE M&P 9mm. Comes with 3 mags and night sights. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SWMP&groupid=3
That's the model I bought, my FFL holder ordered it for me.
Well I got an email from my tech rep at S&W:
"Any modifications or aftermarket parts will void the warranty."
That could be a stock answer but at this time my dept. policy says we can't modify the gun outside of manufacturers specs or do anything that voids the warranty. Thus, unfortunately I had to replace the sear before I went to work just in case I got into a shooting and f'd myself.
I guess I'll keep it for now in the practice gun...
Maybe I'm off the mark here, but havent there been court rulings or laws written that says a manufacturer cannot void a warranty for using aftermarket parts?
The standard response is unfortunate but not unexpected. It will take some time before our parts are accepted by the manufacturer, if ever. As result, many agencies will not allow the installation of our parts.
That said, there are a few agencies in Southern Cal that are looking at allowing the use of our sear and action kits on personally owned firearms. Our Sheriff's department allows reasonable mods such as action work, aftermarket barrel installations and sights.
Maybe I'm off the mark here, but havent there been court rulings or laws written that says a manufacturer cannot void a warranty for using aftermarket parts?
It's the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Sometimes (usually?) used in lawsuits by people with modified cars when their claim is denied.
If a failure is not related to the sear, it should have no bearing on the warrany coverage. However, if they deny the claim, you are pretty much screwed. If you decide to take them to court, you will be burning cash even though the burden of proof is on the manufacturer. Chances are, unles you are independently wealthy, you are not going to go that route for a $600 pistol.
I'm not a lawer, but I did do a failed six month stint in sales at a Honda dealership.
I'm going to request my Training Dept. look into it. Our policy is very restrictive of handguns but liberal with rifles? Go figure. They both do the same thing. But like anything else, it will be an uphill battle.
Thanks for the product Randy.
SNY
That's the model I bought, my FFL holder ordered it for me.
Do you know if the model number or SKU or whatever is something like "SW-3XXXXX"?
It's the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Sometimes (usually?) used in lawsuits by people with modified cars when their claim is denied.
If a failure is not related to the sear, it should have no bearing on the warrany coverage. However, if they deny the claim, you are pretty much screwed. If you decide to take them to court, you will be burning cash even though the burden of proof is on the manufacturer. Chances are, unles you are independently wealthy, you are not going to go that route for a $600 pistol.
I'm not a lawer, but I did do a failed six month stint in sales at a Honda dealership.
As others have said, just keep all stock parts handy and simply uninstall the aftermarket parts and reinstall the stock parts if you need to have warranty work done.
Well I got an email from my tech rep at S&W:
"Any modifications or aftermarket parts will void the warranty."
That could be a stock answer but at this time my dept. policy says we can't modify the gun outside of manufacturers specs or do anything that voids the warranty. Thus, unfortunately I had to replace the sear before I went to work just in case I got into a shooting and f'd myself.
I guess I'll keep it for now in the practice gun...
Ya that is. As I posted, if you send your gun back to S&W, just remove the none factory parts and you should be fine.
Push comes to shove, go through a S&W LE dealer. We have extra power to get things taken care of. ;)
C4
I just installed the Apex sear in my Mid size .45....The trigger is greatly improved to say the least. However, the reset is shorter, but, is the same..vague..Clearly,the improved FPB plunger is needed, If anything the new sear magnify's the crunchy stock FPB. I can see how the radiused FPB plunger would make a huge difference,Well, I know what I'll be buying next...
i just got a pro series 4.25 and the trigger feels a bit gritty. upon inspection, it looks like the side of the trigger bar that depresses the plunger is rubbing on the slide.
anyone have a mp armorer's manuel in pdf they can send over? :D
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