View Full Version : Ar 10 or 15?
Hello Newbie here I know that the 10 is for 308 b/c of length, and 15 is for all under that. I am looking into building an ar for strictly hunting deer, and target practice(stress relief). The question is should I go with the 10 or the 15. I don't trust anything under 6.8mm(.270) for deer; know that might ruffle some feathers but that is the way I was brought up.
For hunting I would go AR10. I use a PTR91 for Elk and Deer and it works great. You can use the AR15 for deer hunting in either .5.56 or 6.8 but I would rather be over powered than under for hunting....
thanks the one other question is how big can I go with a 15? the 10 is really what I want for hunting but how is the reliability of the 10 compared to the 15, I've read in other posts that the 10 malfunction more. also I can get a pse crossbow conversion for the 15 and not the 10 so I can prolong my hunting season. thanks
AR10s are just as reliable as AR15s. The AR15 will give more upper options, its all up to you as what you want or need. If you can afford it, do both...
umm if your planning on doing a lot of hunting or target shooting(+500yds), id go with a larger round. I think it says the max range for the .223 round is 600meters(1968.5ft). i can get 1ft groups with my bull barrel ar15 at 500yds standing, im sure i could do better groups on a bench rest. But im sure you probably will never shoot at anything over those ranges. Usually when i plan on shooting over 600yds, i bring out my 7mm. Otherwise my ar15 does if at 100-500yds target shooting. But hunting, probably never shoot at anything at those distances with a ar15. if you are, its probably just to see how close you can get it before whatever your shooting at runs off. again with the larger rounds do cost more then the smaller ones.
Alaskapopo
12-27-09, 03:56
AR10s are just as reliable as AR15s. The AR15 will give more upper options, its all up to you as what you want or need. If you can afford it, do both...
I would have to disagree with your statement about the AR10 being as reliable as the AR15. I own examples of both and that is false in my experience.
Pat
Singlestack Wonder
12-27-09, 16:26
Can't speak for the Armalite AR10, but my DPMS LR308's have been 100% reliable with several types of 7.62 ammunition. With over 5000 rounds fired, no malfunctions to date, whether slow or rapid fire.
I would have to disagree with your statement about the AR10 being as reliable as the AR15. I own examples of both and that is false in my experience.
Pat
Please elaborate, make, model and issue your having with it. Theres always an exception to the rule, to mention usere error could be a huge part of things (in some cases)...
Alaskapopo
12-27-09, 20:58
Please elaborate, make, model and issue your having with it. Theres always an exception to the rule, to mention usere error could be a huge part of things (in some cases)...
For starters look at the SASS testing for the military. The KAC was chosen but nearly all the contestants came up short in the reliability department. I personally have Two AR10's. The first one I purchased was a Armalite AR10T. It has always cycled and ejected fine. But when I first got it the trigger would double, and the hammer would follow and not fire the round at times. It went back to Armalite 3 times and was never made right. I installed a KAC trigger and that fixed it. Later I upgraded to a Geisselle. Otherwise the rifle has been trouble free. I later had GAP put a better barrel. Its in right now getting the muzzle threaded and a new free float handguard. I don't care for the aesthetics fo the badger.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/GAP1r10.jpg
Now for the AR10 that had issues. My carbine an AR10 A4. It ran fine for the first 1000 rounds or so then started to fail to eject, I ended up calling Armalite and getting an upgraded extractor and ejector spring as well as a new insert for the extractor. That has helped it to run well since. I have had friends that have had multiple issues with the AR10's. The very fact that Armalite has a tech note page on how to diagnose problems is a very telling sign. Do a search on the net and you will find many complaints about reliability from AR10's. Talk to any professional trainers about how AR10's run in classes and its usually not good at least not up to AR15 standards.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/AR10carbine.jpg
I like the AR10 its a fun gun to shoot. But they are not as reliable as the AR15.
Pat
I can agree theres some bugs to work out. Do you have any experience with AR10s other than Armalite? Armalite is not the only brand that makes the AR10. Also, hes not going to war, hes going hunting...
Alaskapopo
12-27-09, 21:30
I can agree theres some bugs to work out. Do you have any experience with AR10s other than Armalite? Armalite is not the only brand that makes the AR10. Also, hes not going to war, hes going hunting...
Personally only Armalite. I just had an objection to the statement that the AR10 and the AR15 are equally reliable. I have not found that to be the case.
Pat
Georgie Boy
12-27-09, 22:35
hes not going to war, hes going hunting...
Yeah, there's definitely a difference, but the desire for utter reliability is still there. Nothing sucks much more than going out either on your own land or on a hunting trip and having your rifle go down taking you out of the game.
The AR-15 gives you plenty of choices out there and more are coming in the near future. There's 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39, 6mmAR, .30AR, .243WSSM, and no clue how many more. Some are great, and some just plain suck, so do a bit of research. Figure out how much it's gonna cost. Figure out if you'd be willing to reload. And look at the performance of each round. Personally, I'm looking into either 6.8SPC as a deer/pig gun, or seeing what I can do with 7.62x39 reloads.
True, I agree. Remember that if you do go with the AR system and want one of the more uncommon calibers, they are not as "refined" as the tried and true 5.56 and 7.62 systems. That being said I would run them anyday. In fact Im gonna do some SBR hunting with a larger AR upper in the next few years...
Singlestack Wonder
12-28-09, 09:23
Even the "top Tier" AR-15 manufacturers turn out a lemon from time to time. Been shooting AR-10 variants for several years and they have been just as reliable as any AR-15's we see at 3-gun matches in the area.
If one prefers the 7.62 platform in the "AR" format, go for it! If you have any issues, the experts here can get you going! :)
For "strictly hunting deer" I personally would be fine with 6.8spc if the deer aren't huge and/or at long ranges.
Alaskapopo
12-28-09, 13:50
Even the "top Tier" AR-15 manufacturers turn out a lemon from time to time. Been shooting AR-10 variants for several years and they have been just as reliable as any AR-15's we see at 3-gun matches in the area.
If one prefers the 7.62 platform in the "AR" format, go for it! If you have any issues, the experts here can get you going! :)
I agree that even the best turn out lemons. However the fact is that AR10's have a greater amount of problems than AR15's. Don't take my word for it go ask some trainers like Pat Rogers for example. Three gun is a fun sport but hardly a definitive test for determining what is and what is not a reliable weapon. Many three gun shooters like DPMS and that is one of the worst AR15 brands. Three gun matches are almost always done in ideal weather conditions are low round count and offer plenty of time to maintain the rifle between stages. Also seldom do you have to crawl through mud with your rifle in three gun, nor do you have to sit outside at -40 below waiting for a target to give up. It is a test of firearms to a degree but not to the degree real life throws at you.
I am not saying not to buy an AR10. I am just pointing out they are not as reliable as the AR15 not anywhere near.
Pat
Singlestack Wonder
12-28-09, 14:56
I agree that even the best turn out lemons. However the fact is that AR10's have a greater amount of problems than AR15's. Don't take my word for it go ask some trainers like Pat Rogers for example. Three gun is a fun sport but hardly a definitive test for determining what is and what is not a reliable weapon. Many three gun shooters like DPMS and that is one of the worst AR15 brands. Three gun matches are almost always done in ideal weather conditions are low round count and offer plenty of time to maintain the rifle between stages. Also seldom do you have to crawl through mud with your rifle in three gun, nor do you have to sit outside at -40 below waiting for a target to give up. It is a test of firearms to a degree but not to the degree real life throws at you.
I am not saying not to buy an AR10. I am just pointing out they are not as reliable as the AR15 not anywhere near.
Pat
We will agree to disagree. The 7.62 AR platform is just as reliable as the AR-15 platform as many users and operators can attest to. "Backyard" tests in Alaska are not the final proving ground for firearms platforms. :p
Alaskapopo
12-28-09, 15:24
We will agree to disagree. The 7.62 AR platform is just as reliable as the AR-15 platform as many users and operators can attest to. "Backyard" tests in Alaska are not the final proving ground for firearms platforms. :p
We will have to disagree because many users and operators can attest to the fact the 7.62 platform is not as reliable. Ask some of the industry professional posters here for their opinion. Also my opinion comes from actual field use not just back yard tests. A few local three gun matches is not the final proving ground either. However I do remember seeing the few AR10's besides mine choke at the matches I have attended.
Pat
If you want a reliable AR-10, this might do the trick:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20091228.aspx
But that's noticeably heavier than an AR-15 as well, if you're a hiking hunter.
I can agree theres some bugs to work out. Do you have any experience with AR10s other than Armalite? Armalite is not the only brand that makes the AR10. Also, hes not going to war, hes going hunting...
Actually, unless I'm totally out to lunch, Armalite is the only company making the "AR10." It is a trademark of Armalite's AR styled 7.62 rifle. Many companies make large caliber, long cartridge AR styled rifles under many names and designs, but there is only one company making the AR10 and for the most part it is not compatible (parts, magazines, etc.) with other companies offerings, such as DPMS or KAC. A problem with an AR10 has nothing to do with any other companies offering.
You know what I mean...:rolleyes:
You know what I mean...:rolleyes:
I do, but Alaskapopo said he had problems with AR10s and gave the details of his 2 Armalite rifles. That has nothing to do with another company's rifles. Nowhere did he condemn 7.62 AR-style rifles in general. Yet numerous folks jumped all over him. In case you hadn't noticed, the man knows his stuff.
Alaskapopo
12-29-09, 22:37
Had some troubles with my AR10 carbine today in fact. During reloads it rammed the bullet into the feed ramp when the bolt stop was hit. This was using ARmalite 25 round mags. This happened in the first qualification I shot. Did the same thing again in the next qualification. I am about ready to remove the damn bolt stop. Also the top round pops out of the mag when you put a mag in the gun in any manner but the most delicate and ginger. AR10's are range toys.
Pat
Singlestack Wonder
12-31-09, 10:22
I do, but Alaskapopo said he had problems with AR10s and gave the details of his 2 Armalite rifles. That has nothing to do with another company's rifles. Nowhere did he condemn 7.62 AR-style rifles in general. Yet numerous folks jumped all over him. In case you hadn't noticed, the man knows his stuff.
Umm, yes he did...a quote from one of his posts:
"We will have to disagree because many users and operators can attest to the fact the 7.62 platform is not as reliable. "
But again, his opinion. The 7.62 AR platform is a proven system manufacturered by many companies. Some would say the 6.8 is an unreliable platform. Not the case. Based on data on this and other forums, one could postulate that the 5.56 AR platform is unreliable as even the "top tier" rifles have been known to malfunction.
Anyway, if you enjoy the 7.62 platform, by all means build or buy a rifle for the caliber and enjoy!
Singlestack Wonder
12-31-09, 10:29
Had some troubles with my AR10 carbine today in fact. During reloads it rammed the bullet into the feed ramp when the bolt stop was hit. This was using ARmalite 25 round mags. This happened in the first qualification I shot. Did the same thing again in the next qualification. I am about ready to remove the damn bolt stop. Also the top round pops out of the mag when you put a mag in the gun in any manner but the most delicate and ginger. AR10's are range toys.
Pat
Are you shooting reloads? Are the mag springs shot? As of today, the DPMS AP4 has 5420 rounds thru it with both DPMS and Magpul mags with no malfunctions of any kind. Put 200 rounds downrange in the snow today working with new Aimpoint H1. My buddie's Fulton Armory 7.62 rifle ran just as well today. His is fairly new with approx. 500 rounds down the tube.
Alaskapopo
12-31-09, 11:44
Single Stack the AR10 is not as reliable go ask any professional firearms trainer who many AR10's they have seen fail vs AR15's. By the way I know how to evaluate and diagnose problems. It sounds like you have had some good luck and you are more than likely a casual shooter based on your posts and profile. If you ever start to run that gun of yours hard you will see some problems as well. AR10's require more upkeep and don't have the reliability of their AR15 brothers. That does not mean the platform is not worth considering. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. But saying an AR10 is equal to an AR15 in reliability is simply false. As for your DPMS they suck. I have been responsible for quite a few DPMS guns as a police department armorer and generally DPMS makes totally inferior guns. That does not mean everyone will fail but more do than pretty much any other brand of AR.
Pat
Singlestack Wonder
01-02-10, 17:50
Single Stack the AR10 is not as reliable go ask any professional firearms trainer who many AR10's they have seen fail vs AR15's. By the way I know how to evaluate and diagnose problems. It sounds like you have had some good luck and you are more than likely a casual shooter based on your posts and profile. If you ever start to run that gun of yours hard you will see some problems as well. AR10's require more upkeep and don't have the reliability of their AR15 brothers. That does not mean the platform is not worth considering. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. But saying an AR10 is equal to an AR15 in reliability is simply false. As for your DPMS they suck. I have been responsible for quite a few DPMS guns as a police department armorer and generally DPMS makes totally inferior guns. That does not mean everyone will fail but more do than pretty much any other brand of AR.
Pat
Alaskapoopoo...casual shooter, well maybe...35,000 plus handgun rounds a year and 25,000 rifle rounds a year. IDPA, 3-gun, tactical matches, fun shoots. (Used to shoot USPSA but tired of the ever changing equipment race and rules modifications to accommodate "gamers). Attended several classes in the late 80's and 90's.
Really, personal attacks? You seem to do this in any forum where someone questions your opinions. Rather than provide sound, logical, facts, the discussion goes down the tubes to irrational personal stabs.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...........
Interesting that the British government has chosen an AR type 7.62 platform for their next weapon system. Read about it in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24947
I'm done posting on this topic. The space should be used for information exchange, not arguing opinion vs. opinion beyond the stated facts.
Alaskapopo
01-02-10, 19:03
Alaskapoopoo...casual shooter, well maybe...35,000 plus handgun rounds a year and 25,000 rifle rounds a year. IDPA, 3-gun, tactical matches, fun shoots. (Used to shoot USPSA but tired of the ever changing equipment race and rules modifications to accommodate "gamers). Attended several classes in the late 80's and 90's.
Really, personal attacks? You seem to do this in any forum where someone questions your opinions. Rather than provide sound, logical, facts, the discussion goes down the tubes to irrational personal stabs.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...........
Interesting that the British government has chosen an AR type 7.62 platform for their next weapon system. Read about it in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24947
I'm done posting on this topic. The space should be used for information exchange, not arguing opinion vs. opinion beyond the stated facts.
Actually calling you a casual shooter is not an insult. Calling someone an elietist like you have called me is an insult.
pat
constructor
01-02-10, 22:50
Did I hear somewhere that all of the Knight SR25/M110 bla, blas that went overseas were returned due to issues? A buddy that works for Blackwater or whatever they are called now said they were having problems so has anyone else heard this?
As far as the op- if hunting deer in brush country the 6.8 does well out to about 300, the little 85 Barnes at 3000fps just smokes hogs. We shot one in the right shoulder and it exited the left ham just to check the penetration. The Barnes solid copper bullets retain almost all of their weight so no need to use a big heavy slow bullet to get penetration now.
The AR10s, DPMS are quite a bit heavier and a pain to haul around in the woods but if you decide to try the 308 check out the Barnes 130gr TSX.
Alaskapopo
01-02-10, 23:10
I am getting rid of my Ar10 carbine and going to go with a 6.8 build in the future. My Ar10 carbine works for the most part. The issues that drive me nuts however are the mag issues. For starters as I said earlier no matter what mag I use if I reload on an open bolt the top round pops out of the mag and has to be shacken out of the upper before I close the bolt. The only way to avoid this is to reload from a closed bolt or to be very gentle when I insert the magazine. I mean very slow. Second issue is when I reload from a open bolt (ie emergency reload) about 20% of the time the round nose dives on the feed ramp if I use the bolt release vs running the charging handle. If I were to keep the Ar10 carbine I would have simply removed the bolt stop all together. From what I have observed and been told the 6.8 is far more reliable in the Ar15 than the Ar10.
Pat
Alaska, are those Gen II mags? Gotta admit, I've never had that problem... sorry to hear that you have.
Hello Newbie here I know that the 10 is for 308 b/c of length, and 15 is for all under that. I am looking into building an ar for strictly hunting deer, and target practice(stress relief). The question is should I go with the 10 or the 15. I don't trust anything under 6.8mm(.270) for deer; know that might ruffle some feathers but that is the way I was brought up.Most states, if they establish a bore diameter restriction at all, have set that to a minimum of .24 caliber. That's because most rifles in .243/6mm caliber are more than adequate for deer and other animals of less than 400 pounds body weight. In Montana, where I lived for 4 years some 35 years ago, the 243 Winchester caliber was very popular for shooting mule deer, I hunted with a 257 Roberts chambered Ruger M77 which I still have. Here in South Carolina its 24 inch barrel is a PITA.
The practice of taking the AR-15 sized rifles deer hunting is relatively new (about 10 years old), mostly based on the two very good calibers now available to nearly everyone, the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel. As you pointed out, the 6.8 SPC is .277 bore and the 6.5G is .264 bore, I can't speak from experience, but I'd guess that a deer, black bear, or boar hit with either of those rounds at typical hunting distances will not know the difference in the least. The great thing is, you can take an AR in either of these calibers, with a 16 inch barrel, hunting around here and it will have plenty of power to take your deer.
Alaska, are those Gen II mags? Gotta admit, I've never had that problem... sorry to hear that you have.
Yeah, I'd like to hear about this more as well.
Alaskapopo
01-04-10, 00:53
Alaska, are those Gen II mags? Gotta admit, I've never had that problem... sorry to hear that you have.
All my mags Gen 1 and 2. 10 round mags, 20 round mags and 25 round mags.
Pat
I can agree (being employed by BW. We have saw many more malfunctions out of the 7.62 than the .556 platform. Mostly extraction problems, but some others as well. I am working on a DPMS right now as it is a single shot, it will fire the 1st rd, extract, but has trouble getting the 2nd rd in the chamber. I am expecting a gas problem, as I have had to expand the port on the gas hole on several occasions. Some seem ok, but like someone said, if we run em hard (and I mean hard) they tend to start giving up. You will never see an AR10 pass the torture test that the Ar's do. Look at the DEA's torture test on the AR's, when they chose RRA for their gun. If I were a whitetail hunter i would go with the AR in the 6.8, and as a matter of fact I did. I shoot from a ground blind to 400yds to a bait pile, and have yet to have a deer run (knock on wood) Odds are unless you are hunting huge bean fields you won't be shooting beyond 300yds and most whitetails are taken under 100yds. I have actually shot a whitetail doe with a .556 @ 700yds, and yes it did run , but only about 50yds with a neck shot. Depending what kind of shot you like to shoot depends on what caliber. Are you a soft tissue shooter, or shoulder shooter. If like most a shoulder you need a lil more knock down like the 6.8. or 7.62x39. I have killed dozens of deer with an AK47, and its basically like a 30/30, and even better when handloaded. I shoot 130 BT type bullets, and they are awesome. My longest shot on a whitetail was 1014yds with a 6.5/284 and a NF 22x optic. I use my 6.8 all the time,and if Im goin hike hunting, I slap on my eotech, or when shooting to my bait pile its a 6.5-20 Leupold VX3. I think all hunters should try the eotech, due to alot of running deer and being able to fire w/ both eyes open. BTW I think most whitetail hunters shoot over powered guns, and think no matter where they shoot the animal, it will go down. (FALSE) Id rather have a .223 at 300yds and a perfect shot, than a 7mm SAUM and a poorly placed shot. Remember, the 1st shot is the most important. so place it well.
Singlestack Wonder
01-09-10, 20:20
Received a shipment of Magpul LR308 mags yesterday. Took the DPMS LR308-AP4 to the range to try them out. After putting over 5000 malfunction free rounds thru this rifle with DPMS mags, I was hoping these would work as they are less than half the price. 500 flawless rounds at the range. I had 6 Magpul mags and shot one right after the other rapid fire, then reloaded all six and repeated. Thanks Magpul!
:D
Components are now on order for 18" SPR 7.62 rifle. Will report back after first range test.
Can we knock off the petty insults , elitist or casual shooter business? This place is for technical discussion, not who has a bigger internet johnson. Next time, Im just going to hand out the warnings.
Wake up guys and act like adults and men.
I agree with that, Magpul is some of the finest products out there for the AR platform. Ive been hoping they would build a complete gun like DD, I'm sure people would be waiting in line to buy.
Alaskapopo
01-10-10, 14:47
I agree with that, Magpul is some of the finest products out there for the AR platform. Ive been hoping they would build a complete gun like DD, I'm sure people would be waiting in line to buy.
That sort of happened when they teamed up with Noveske. They used a Magpul Lower and Noveske upper.
Pat
Casual user here. I have both an AR15 and an SR25LM. I have had few issues with the AR15 and what few there were have been magazine related. On the other hand, I'm working on issues with the Stoner. Using my standard 308 Match reloads (Fed brass, 210M primers, 41.5 gr IMR4895, & 168 gr Sierra HPBT's), I have been blowing primers. This ammo works fine in my M1A. I might have a tight bore or need to put in a heavier buffer and/or stronger spring. Bottom line, in my limited experience, AR15's are more reliable. YMMV.
I kind of think of the AR10 the same way I think of 1911s. Ones that work are a thing of beauty, but you can't count on every one to work. Can't just step up to a fireing line with ten anonymous 1911s and expect them all to work 100%. Additionaly, they are tuned machines that will always require more upkeep than other designs. I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to call them "range toys", the Canadian military certainly doesn't, but each one should be treated as an individual and vetted as such.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.